Colts Listening To Offers For Freeney

[IndyTrav]

Meh. Ware gets a lot of scheme help that a three-point rusher would never get. Not knocking him, he's great, but it's hard to compare a two-point rusher in a 3-4 with an end in a 4-3.

That is complete crazyness hombre.

Dwights played 37 MORE games than Ware, and has exactly 3 MORE sacks......and you are claiming scheme.....It may be a bit different, and in my opinion more favored to a 4-3 guy (Dwight), but that is absurd.

[presto123]

Is there in doubt now we are in rebuild mode? Colts want to get young, young, young. I would love to see Freeney end up in Chicago on that great defense. With our good draft(jury still out maybe) last year if we have a good draft this year we will have a young talented team that can grow together. I like it. Colts fans that want to win right away maybe not so much:)

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Nope. I'd rather have 4 good guys making 5 mil each than one great guy making 20 mil.

I respectfully disagree.

I'd rather have Impact players over average players, superstars are a lot harder to obtain than average players and are game-changers.

[Coltswarriors]

Really hoping/wanting Freeney to restructure/extend his contract, but if he's not we'll HAVE to trade him... I hope we don't cut him. At least get a trade.

[OldManP]

Freeney is going to New England

[Mameluc]

Sorry, you are exaggerating on the opposite side of the spectrum. #30???

Freeney is somewhere in the middle, somewhere between 10-20 in DE rankings in terms of the quality he brings in terms of pass rush and forcing opponents to game plan for him. There are still not many 270 lb DEs that can move like him, pass rush or bull rush like him out of a 3 point stance. His lack of long arms results in less batted passes and his deficiency in run D is what takes him down to the 10-20 mark.

But, for the price he is paid by our team, yes, he is not worth the value we are getting from him. Plus, he is probably the worst fit among our current DEs or OLB candidates for the 3-4 hybrid D that Pagano wants to play.

i dont know what freeney did to indytrav but cmon man Matthews(im assumming you mean packers mathews) had 6 sacks last year and he is supposed to be their guy, barwin? you telling me you rather have barwin than freeney? heck i even preffer freeney than osi...long? chris long? cmon man

[Luck for President]

I personally like the move b/c we can't sink all of our money into two DEs. We have a lot of needs and I believe we can get a decent pick or a couple of picks to help rebuild our depleted team. I'm also not going to be shocked if we let Clark and Bracket go. I know Clark was special 3 years ago but he's been hurt a lot and he commands a lot of money. Same thing for Bracket. I like Angerer a lot along with Conner.

[carmelcolt]

i dont think we will get a high draft pick for Freeney.....i like him also but remember Manning second year they traded Faulk for a fourth rounder.....alot of people were upset and we drafted James and that worked out well. I know we won't have a top 5 pick for a defensive guy but alot of good defensive players can be found in the 30's. i think were picking 33rd.

[Jaric]

I respectfully disagree.

I'd rather have Impact players over average players, superstars are a lot harder to obtain than average players and are game-changers.

Until said game changer gets hurt. Or wants a new contract. Or has a bad game.

And by the way, "average" players aren't making 5 million a year. Football is the ultimate team sport and we should build our team accordingly.

EDIT: For the record, IMO Franchise Quarterbacks are excluded from this discussion.

[Luck for President]

i dont think we will get a high draft pick for Freeney.....i like him also but remember Manning second year they traded Faulk for a fourth rounder.....alot of people were upset and we drafted James and that worked out well. I know we won't have a top 5 pick for a defensive guy but alot of good defensive players can be found in the 30's. i think were picking 33rd.

We pick 34 b/c we alternate every other round with the Rams. I think we can get an early second rounder for him. Seymour was worth a 1st round pick I'm not saying Freeney is worth that but someone might do it for a quick turn around game changer.

[Cynjin]

Adam Schefter‏@AdamSchefter

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Filed to ESPN: Colts are fielding telephone calls from teams interested in trading for perennial Pro Bowl defensive end Dwight Freeney.

Well that would mean my two favorite Colt players would be gone the same year. I am going to have to get new jerseys.

[IndyTrav]

i dont know what freeney did to indytrav but cmon man Matthews(im assumming you mean packers mathews) had 6 sacks last year and he is supposed to be their guy, barwin? you telling me you rather have barwin than freeney? heck i even preffer freeney than osi...long? chris long? cmon man

Now...and moving forward....Long-26 Mathews-25 Barwin-25....if you wouldn't take them over Freeney, I don't know what to tell you.....

There last 2 full seasons played. Sack wise...Long-21.5 Matthews-19.5 Freeney-18.5 Barwin-16...........I can do this all day.....

[BOTT]

they should trade freeney regarless....don't want the colts to extend his contract....what's the point when they are in rebuild mode?

[Jaric]

Well that would mean my two favorite Colt players would be gone the same year. I am going to have to get new jerseys.

I'd humbly suggest Angerer, but in the interest of full disclosure I should tell you I have bad luck with jerseys (as the Corey Simon and Freddy Keaiho jersey in my closet can attest to...)

[austriancolt]

maybe the pats will give up one of their first rounders?

[Luck for President]

I'd humbly suggest Angerer, but in the interest of full disclosure I should tell you I have bad luck with jerseys (as the Corey Simon and Freddy Keaiho jersey in my closet can attest to...)

Just wait for the new Nike line coming out in April and decide then

[David Wagner]

he is not going to fit into the offense of the future so why not get what you can while you can. trades have to benefit both sides so we get a first rounder this year and the other team gets a pass rushing end which fits their style.

it has to be the right style of defense for him. he is not a big defensive end by any stretch of the imagination.

I am excited to see the colts going to a more aggressive and larger defensive front.. it was rediculus the players we trotted out last year. then you have GM drafting Pat Angerer in the 2nd round when he could have been had in the 4th round. polian was no draft genius by any stretch to the imagination. look how many lineman were washouts and some where even high draft picks.

[Luck for President]

he is not going to fit into the offense of the future so why not get what you can while you can. trades have to benefit both sides so we get a first rounder this year and the other team gets a pass rushing end which fits their style.

it has to be the right style of defense for him. he is not a big defensive end by any stretch of the imagination.

I am excited to see the colts going to a more aggressive and larger defensive front.. it was rediculus the players we trotted out last year. then you have GM drafting Pat Angerer in the 2nd round when he could have been had in the 4th round. polian was no draft genius by any stretch to the imagination. look how many lineman were washouts and some where even high draft picks.

Angerer was "projected" as a 4th rounder that doesn't mean he would have been there if we waited. Also, I believe he was worth it and I bet a lot of other colts fans appreciated his effort last year.

[needanoline63]

ahhh. freeney is my favorite defensive end but less then 25 tackles isnt good. He cost to much to keep around. It would be amazing if we got a first round for him, a steal actually, but who is that crazy?!?

[David Wagner]

Angerer was "projected" as a 4th rounder that doesn't mean he would have been there if we waited. Also, I believe he was worth it and I bet a lot of other colts fans appreciated his effort last year.

sure he has been a high effort rudy kind of player. it still does not make up for the fact he was over drafted. unless he makes 6 or more pro bowls over his career his pick was of poor value.

[buccolts]

Is there in doubt now we are in rebuild mode? Colts want to get young, young, young. I would love to see Freeney end up in Chicago on that great defense. With our good draft(jury still out maybe) last year if we have a good draft this year we will have a young talented team that can grow together. I like it. Colts fans that want to win right away maybe not so much:)

Please.....not Chicago.

Although, I'm sure I'll find a way to argue with Bears fans, in my favor.

[Cynjin]

I'd humbly suggest Angerer, but in the interest of full disclosure I should tell you I have bad luck with jerseys (as the Corey Simon and Freddy Keaiho jersey in my closet can attest to...)

I will have to consider Angerer, but I will probably wait until I get a clearer idea about who is sticking around and who might be a short timer.

[chad72]

Now...and moving forward....Long-26 Mathews-25 Barwin-25....if you wouldn't take them over Freeney, I don't know what to tell you.....

There last 2 full seasons played. Sack wise...Long-21.5 Matthews-19.5 Freeney-18.5 Barwin-16...........I can do this all day.....

IndyTrav, just sacks and tackles do not tell the whole story.

Here is a 3 year study done on pass rushing productivity that may open your eyes (or may not - maybe it is a moot point since you have decided your eyes and ears will be closed to any opinion offered on Freeney):

http://www.profootba...y-edge-rushers/

Yes, the let down year of 2011 may not tell you the whole story but one thing we did have was Peyton in 2008-2010, so I still think it is a valid study. You make up your mind (or like I alluded to, it is already made up, so no point in debate but at least the others can see the results of the study).

[BProland85]

With his current cap hit of $20M, he NEEDS to go. I'll take a 4th or 5th rounder for him.

Way too low. We need to ask for nothing less than a 2nd round pick. Maybe a 3rd if no one will gives us a 2nd. Im hoping for a late 1st though.

[chad72]

Way too low. We need to ask for nothing less than a 2nd round pick. Maybe a 3rd if no one will gives us a 2nd. Im hoping for a late 1st though.

Agree. Weak defensive end class. So a minimum of a 2nd rounder and maybe an extra 4th or 5th, depending on whether we have multiple trade offers.

[IndyTrav]

IndyTrav, just sacks and tackles do not tell the whole story.

Here is a 3 year study done on pass rushing productivity that may open your eyes (or may not - maybe it is a moot point since you have decided your eyes and ears will be closed to any opinion offered on Freeney):

http://www.profootba...y-edge-rushers/

Yes, the let down year of 2011 may not tell you the whole story but one thing we did have was Peyton in 2008-2010, so I still think it is a valid study. You make up your mind (or like I alluded to, it is already made up, so no point in debate but at least the others can see the results of the study).

I've seen that before. Nothing new here. Esp the 2008-2010... Its 2012....His ages were 28-30.....Mathis was right there alongside him.....Making less $.....Its also only accounts for 'pass rushes', in which in 2010 he was 17th....17th.....17th in the NFL at the ONLY thing he's asked to do..... Now lets compare him in tackles to the same guys on that list ahead of him.....less than hali,johnson,woodley,ware,abraham,lawson, wake, harrison, babin, cole, avril, clemons, brock..the only other two in front of him he didn't beat in tackles were Bernard, and Barnes....Only a few being slightly ahead of Freeney (Edwards, Avril) while most are significantly ahead of him.....

Lets take a look at tackles for loss...http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/defense-tackles-for-loss...where he comes in at #99 in 2011, or #66 in 2010....

[Andy]

If he gets cut, he'll get at least a $15 million signing bonus with another team, and that will make up for the $19 million salary he's due this year. If he gets traded, he'll be agreeing to an extension with another team, with a new signing bonus. He's not losing money in any scenario.

Forgot about this...

That's your opinion, but I don't think there is a team that gives Freeney, a 32 year old declining star 15M dollars in bonus. I see a low base salary with about 7M in bonuses. No one will give him him an 8 digit bonus, or they'll just be stupid. Freeney has to realize this too.

[Jaric]

Angerer was "projected" as a 4th rounder that doesn't mean he would have been there if we waited. Also, I believe he was worth it and I bet a lot of other colts fans appreciated his effort last year.

Yeah, that was money well spent as far as I'm concerned.

[Andy]

I think anyone who doesn't want a pure pass rusher in an increasingly pass-happy league is crazy.

Not just any pass rusher, a pass rusher that is declining severely and is getting old. Any old player has a lower value.

All those guys are great (including a few others), but none of them equal Freeney in passing situations. And as I mentioned above, there are more and more passing situations in the NFL anymore.

Are you kidding????? Jared Allen doesn't equal Freeney in passing situations. Peppers doesn't equal Freeney in passing situations. Jared Allen got 22 sacks this year and more than 14 in 4 of the last 5 years, something that Freeney has not done, or gotten close to doing. Justin Smith is a great all around DE who is not as good as Freeney in passing situations, but keep in mind that Smith did have 7.5 sacks this year, 1 less than Manning. Julius Peppers has the same amount of sacks and they've played the same amount of time. Peppers is more consistent than Freeney though.

He hasn't been declining at all. We've been playing a ridiculous scheme in the secondary since the Super Bowl, limiting his effectiveness. I don't see any lack of motivation from him. I see a frustrated pass rusher who hasn't gotten any help from his defensive coaches.

Well if it's such a ridiculous scheme, why has he been excelling in it. You're telling me that if he plays in a different scheme he gets in the top 3 in sacks year in and year out, NO! The scheme they play barely effects the line. It effects the coverages and the run stopping game. He still rushes the QB on every play. Teerlinck was a great coach for him and helped develop him (and Mathis). He was a great coach.

Which is why a fringe playoff team that needs a pass rusher would be willing to give up a couple picks and extend him for three or four years. Give him a four year extension for $42 million and an $18 million signing bonus, and reamortize his $14 million salary for 2012 into that extension, and he'd have an average base salary of $7.6 million, and an average cap hit of $11.2 million.

That team must be desperate and there are no teams on the fringe of the playoff birth that are 4-3 teams and have that kind of money to spend. Maybe those teams would give him a 2nd round (since those picks are later in the round since they're fringe playoff teams). A contract that big for a DE who has 2 more good years in him is too much.

Meh. Ware gets a lot of scheme help that a three-point rusher would never get. Not knocking him, he's great, but it's hard to compare a two-point rusher in a 3-4 with an end in a 4-3.

Whether you like it or not, Ware is a better pass rusher than Freeney. It's not hard to compare if they rush the QB all the time (or most of the time for Ware). Both get double teamed a lot too, and Ware still puts up better numbers than Freeney. I'm surprised by some of the things you're saying.

[Jaric]

I will have to consider Angerer, but I will probably wait until I get a clearer idea about who is sticking around and who might be a short timer.

Same here.

[dgambill]

Honestly we don't need a game changer this year! Freeney is gone or should be. People who want to get rid of Peyton to rebuild but not touch FREENEY?! That is crazy! We aren't going anywhere next year obviously and he won't be with us long term. His contract will be up after next year and will go out into FA and see what he can get....and all we will get is a compensulary pick for him. Get a late 1st rounder or early second rounder. He can be a difference maker for someone else...he can't for us! Last year proved that. Mathis has a lot lot more left in the tank and can fit our new scheme and thus made since resigning...Freeney does not. Just think it is laughable people think Freeney is untouchable and we just traded the greatest qb in the history of our franchise and possibly the NFL.

[dgambill]

"NFL teams that use the 4–3 defense as of 2011 include the Cleveland Browns, Philadelphia Eagles, New York Giants, Atlanta Falcons, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Rams, Minnesota Vikings, Chicago Bears, Carolina Panthers, Cincinnati Bengals, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, Detroit Lions, New Orleans Saints,Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Seattle Seahawks, Denver Broncos, Miami Dolphins,and Baltimore Ravens." Wiki

There are several teams there with cap space that could look at freeney. Namely cincy, seattle, and denver that all could offer a late 1st or 2nd round pick. He very well could resign with them to a restructured deal...definately not us.

[ColtsLegacy]

sure he has been a high effort rudy kind of player. it still does not make up for the fact he was over drafted. unless he makes 6 or more pro bowls over his career his pick was of poor value.

So, a player must make 6+ Pro Bowls to be considered worthy of a late 2nd round pick?

Edited March 10, 2012 by 21isSuperman

[Superman]

Forgot about this...

That's your opinion, but I don't think there is a team that gives Freeney, a 32 year old declining star 15M dollars in bonus. I see a low base salary with about 7M in bonuses. No one will give him him an 8 digit bonus, or they'll just be stupid. Freeney has to realize this too.

???

Mathis can get a $15 million bonus, but Freeney can't? He's only one year older, but you think his bonus will be half of Mathis'? I think that's quite a gap to bridge, and I would bet dollars to donuts that Freeney gets more than a $7 million signing bonus on his next contract, whether that's an extension to his current deal or a free agent deal next year.

[Superman]

Not just any pass rusher, a pass rusher that is declining severely and is getting old. Any old player has a lower value.

He isn't declining at the rate you keep saying he is. Flawed premise.

Are you kidding????? Jared Allen doesn't equal Freeney in passing situations. Peppers doesn't equal Freeney in passing situations. Jared Allen got 22 sacks this year and more than 14 in 4 of the last 5 years, something that Freeney has not done, or gotten close to doing. Justin Smith is a great all around DE who is not as good as Freeney in passing situations, but keep in mind that Smith did have 7.5 sacks this year, 1 less than Manning. Julius Peppers has the same amount of sacks and they've played the same amount of time. Peppers is more consistent than Freeney though.

I'll give you Allen, based on the numbers, but I don't think he's as dynamic a pass rusher as Freeney is. Same for the rest.

Well if it's such a ridiculous scheme, why has he been excelling in it. You're telling me that if he plays in a different scheme he gets in the top 3 in sacks year in and year out, NO! The scheme they play barely effects the line. It effects the coverages and the run stopping game. He still rushes the QB on every play. Teerlinck was a great coach for him and helped develop him (and Mathis). He was a great coach.

If you don't get how playing the corners 8 yards off the line virtually every down affects the pass rush, then I don't know what to say. Freeney (and the rest of the defensive line) got >>>ed the past two seasons with a stupid scheme that allowed receivers to run unimpeded and quarterbacks to throw short, easy completions.

We allowed quarterbacks to complete 71% of their passes against us, with first downs on 39% of their attempts. That means that it was mathematically a mistake to EVER punt against us. Teams could just throw every single down and convert for first downs whenever they wanted, due to the scheme.

So, YES, if he played in a different scheme, he'd be top three in sacks. Just like he was in 2009 before Larry Coyer lost his marbles.

That team must be desperate and there are no teams on the fringe of the playoff birth that are 4-3 teams and have that kind of money to spend. Maybe those teams would give him a 2nd round (since those picks are later in the round since they're fringe playoff teams). A contract that big for a DE who has 2 more good years in him is too much.

See dgambill's post above. There are several teams with cap space that run a 4-3 base that need pass rushers.

And again, there's the flawed premise. There's no reason to believe that Freeney only has two more good years in him.

Whether you like it or not, Ware is a better pass rusher than Freeney. It's not hard to compare if they rush the QB all the time (or most of the time for Ware). Both get double teamed a lot too, and Ware still puts up better numbers than Freeney. I'm surprised by some of the things you're saying.

Again, if you can't understand the difference between rushing from a two-point stance, from either side of the line, and rushing from a three-point stance, always on the right side of the line, then it's no wonder you're surprised. This is basic stuff. It's two different things, two different positions, and it's hard to compare the two just based on sacks numbers. Not taking anything away from Ware; he's awesome. But it's different.

[Andy]

???

Mathis can get a $15 million bonus, but Freeney can't? He's only one year older, but you think his bonus will be half of Mathis'? I think that's quite a gap to bridge, and I would bet dollars to donuts that Freeney gets more than a $7 million signing bonus on his next contract, whether that's an extension to his current deal or a free agent deal next year.

But we been seeing a decline in Freeney, something we've haven't seen in Mathis. Who gets 10 to 12 sacks each year. Freeney gets to 11, but then has some off years. He's too inconsistent. That alone is not enough, so here's another example. At this age, 1 year makes a different. Big bonuses are fine for teams if you have multiple years to spread it out, if you don't then you're losing some money. That's the situation with Freeney. The max deal Freeney gets is a 3 year deal, so spreading out a 15M dollar bonus is not as forgiving. These are 2 big problems, but theres another one. The Colts paid big to keep Mathis, because they wanted to make sure he stays. You don't think that if PM goes on the Dolphins, Freeney would take a smaller contract just to go there. Not many contending teams who play 4-3 have that much money to spend, let alone on a guy like Freeney.

[Superman]

But we been seeing a decline in Freeney, something we've haven't seen in Mathis. Who gets 10 to 12 sacks each year. Freeney gets to 11, but then has some off years. He's too inconsistent.

Aside from this year, which was an anomaly, Freeney hasn't been below ten sacks since he hurt his foot in 2007. I don't see the decline.

That alone is not enough, so here's another example. At this age, 1 year makes a different. Big bonuses are fine for teams if you have multiple years to spread it out, if you don't then you're losing some money. That's the situation with Freeney. The max deal Freeney gets is a 3 year deal, so spreading out a 15M dollar bonus is not as forgiving. These are 2 big problems, but theres another one. The Colts paid big to keep Mathis, because they wanted to make sure he stays.

Freeney is widely regarded as the better player, and even with him being one year older, there's no way his going rate is a $7 million signing bonus. Come off it.

You don't think that if PM goes on the Dolphins, Freeney would take a smaller contract just to go there. Not many contending teams who play 4-3 have that much money to spend, let alone on a guy like Freeney.

If Freeney gives the Dolphins a discount to follow Manning to Miami (which is highly unlikely; Freeney always seemed to resent the attention Manning and the offense got, especially when word was coming that Manning would miss the season), that's not indicative of his going rate.

And again, see dgambill's post above. There are several teams with cap space who run a base 4-3 and need a pass rusher. In a passing league, there will be a premium on Freeney's services if he's available.

[GoColts8818]

So, a player must make 6+ Pro Bowls to be considered worthy of a late 2nd round pick?

Excuse me for asking, but, are you high?

Marshal Faulk at the prime of his career only brought us a second round pick. Freeney is past the prime of his career and frankly going toward the end of his career. He's a speed player and once that goes away he just becomes an undersized end. Remember when we signed Rice in 2007 I think and he just looked like he was going in slow motion compared to other players? That's what will happen to Freeney once his speed does go away. If the Colts can get something of value for him and he is unwillingly to work with the team so they can keep him what other choice do the Colts have? Release him and get nothing for him? I don't want to see Freeney traded but unless he has a change in attitude that looks to be the way things are going.

[SilentHill]

This move (if it happens) makes sense, but it also makes me sad Even worse than when Manning left, because I was expecting that and I wasn't this.

[Superman]

Marshal Faulk at the prime of his career only brought us a second round pick. Freeney is past the prime of his career and frankly going toward the end of his career. He's a speed player and once that goes away he just becomes an undersized end. Remember when we signed Rice in 2007 I think and he just looked like he was going in slow motion compared to other players? That's what will happen to Freeney once his speed does go away. If the Colts can get something of value for him and he is unwillingly to work with the team so they can keep him what other choice do the Colts have? Release him and get nothing for him? I don't want to see Freeney traded but unless he has a change in attitude that looks to be the way things are going.

Simeon Rice, at his best, wasn't 2/3 of the player Freeney is now.

And really, the model for a potential Freeney trade would be the Seymour trade a few years ago. The Raiders gave up a high first for him, and since it's the Raiders, I can see downgrading the yield by a round, so getting a solid second rounder shouldn't be that outside the realm of possibility.