Is Grigson a "Control Freak"...And Does It Matter

[DougDew]

In numerous threads, there have been comments and reports about Grigson making decisions that are normally reserved for the HC. Most of us have not seen any specific evidence of this, but have read that via several outlets that "numerous NFL sources confirm this".

I wanted this to be its own thread because comments about this issue tend to get caught in the wash of other specific topical headings. So please reserve the thread for comments about this issue.

I've held several supervisory positions from time to time, and can tell you first hand that sometimes a supervisor has to get his or her hands dirty more than they want to when they lack confidence in their subordinates.

Is this the case with Grigson? Or, is he just a meddling task master that gets in the way of subordinates making good decisions?

I'd like to see more specific evidence on the matter.

What decisions did he make about lineup changes....were they the right ones or the wrong ones?

Why did he make them, to help win a specific game, or to see what a player can do against real competition?

Were they only on offense? Why?

IMO, this issue isn't going away anytime soon. Hopefully, if we can get a thread where we can post reports of specific decisions Grigson has supposedly been making, we can all have more clarity.

[krunk]

I want to know who Grigson is saying can't play that should be playing? I don't see anybody that is starting on the O line that should not be starting. And I don't see anybody starting at the skill positions that should not. I can't see how chuck would conclude that anybody else should be playing other than who we have in there now. Where is the divide?

[rockywoj]

I think I like this thread. I mean, aside from the owner, the GM is in charge! Why would we expect anything else? That being said, when you hire a head coach, you ought to be on the same page to enough of a degree that you will actually let them coach.

Further to the possible divide of who plays and whose responsibility it is to decide, have any of you seen the movie Money Ball?

[NagelHausForge]

I want to know who Grigson is saying can't play that should be playing? I don't see anybody that is starting on the O line that should not be starting. And I don't see anybody starting at the skill positions that should not. I can't see how chuck would conclude that anybody else should be playing other than who we have in there now. Where is the divide?

 

Perhaps it could have been earlier this season when the O-line was shuffled.  I believe our starting O-line combo was Castanzo-Louis-Holmes-Herremans-Mewhort... Not a very good combination.

 

Granted the O-line changes haven't solved all the problems but it seems that the current line up is a lot better than the original.

 

Just speculation on my part of course but that is one possibility where Grigson may have dictated the starting lineup which clearly wasn't the most talented 5.

[pacolts56]

Whatever the truth about all this is.....the line of demarcation should have been CLEARLY set out by Irsay when he made the decision to pair a 1st time GM with a 1st time Head Coach.

The Colts were bound to hit a rough spot somewhere along the line....and this kind of crap, if its true, is the risk you run when roles and responsibilities aren't clearly spelled out BEFORE the individuals are hired.

Grigson, him having a decent but not great run as GM, simply doesn't have the front line experience or the earned respect as a GM to be doing what has been reported IF it is indeed true. I'm not sure how much seasoned GM's even do that...does anyone else know?

But if it is true and Irsay IS allowing it...he's a *, and good luck with his "big game hunting" because no top flight head coach candidate will ever put up with some above average GM who's made his own share of mistakes and is still cutting his teeth, trying to shotcall game day decisions.

[coltsfeva]

A house divided shall fall. It's the same principle for all organizations; a business, church, band or team. Do not like the dissension and I sensed some arrogance from Grigson since he got here. 

 

I always thought Irsay was a decent owner. I can't understand why he thinks allowing the GM to make these calls is a good idea. 

[chrisfarley]

Traditionally, GM's are loose cannons with silly amounts of control.  That's the way NFL teams design this hierarchical power structure.  HOWEVER, take a look at this article, and you'll see that it's not quite as easy as pie to figure out.  Miami, wow!

 

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/1/25/5343964/nfl-power-structures-who-really-runs-a-team

[Smonroe]

We really don't know what's going on, no 'source' is ever named.  But if what we're hearing is true then Irsay needs to make a move.

 

The really smart owners let the guys they hire do THEIR jobs.  Not theirs and someone else's. 

 

To paraphrase Parcells, Irsay lays out the budget for Grigson to by the ingredients.  It should be up to Chuck to cook the meal.

 

IMHO, Grigson hasn't used the budget very well.

[DougDew]

Whatever the truth about all this is.....the line of demarcation should have been CLEARLY set out by Irsay when he made the decision to pair a 1st time GM with a 1st time Head Coach.

The Colts were bound to hit a rough spot somewhere along the line....and this kind of crap, if its true, is the risk you run when roles and responsibilities aren't clearly spelled out BEFORE the individuals are hired.

Grigson, him having a decent but not great run as GM, simply doesn't have the front line experience or the earned respect as a GM to be doing what has been reported IF it is indeed true. I'm not sure how much seasoned GM's even do that...does anyone else know?

But if it is true and Irsay IS allowing it...he's a *, and good luck with his "big game hunting" because no top flight head coach candidate will ever put up with some above average GM who's made his own share of mistakes and is still cutting his teeth, trying to shotcall game day decisions.

I agree, if true. And, I agree with you, you need to have a clear decision path laid out by the owner. How about this....

Has anybody considered the possibility that there was/is an understanding that Grigson make certain decisions about the offensive line? Pagano's background is DBs..and Grigsons background is SPECIFICALLY OLINE. What was Peps specialty?

Perhaps Irsay (and even Pagano) feel that Grigson is very qualified to make oline decisions (I don't know where Joe Gilbert fits into this)

And so far, the reports that have been rumored all center on Grigson meddling in oline decisions...nothing else.

If I were trying to find out the truth, I would ask...

Did Grigson make offensive lineup decisions WHEN ARIANS WAS INTERIM HC, against Arian's objections? Certainly these reliable "numerous NFL sources" could find that out pretty quickly.

[jvan1973]

In numerous threads, there have been comments and reports about Grigson making decisions that are normally reserved for the HC. Most of us have not seen any specific evidence of this, but have read that via several outlets that "numerous NFL sources confirm this".

I wanted this to be its own thread because comments about this issue tend to get caught in the wash of other specific topical headings. So please reserve the thread for comments about this issue.

I've held several supervisory positions from time to time, and can tell you first hand that sometimes a supervisor has to get his or her hands dirty more than they want to when they lack confidence in their subordinates.

Is this the case with Grigson? Or, is he just a meddling task master that gets in the way of subordinates making good decisions?

I'd like to see more specific evidence on the matter.

What decisions did he make about lineup changes....were they the right ones or the wrong ones?

Why did he make them, to help win a specific game, or to see what a player can do against real competition?

Were they only on offense? Why?

IMO, this issue isn't going away anytime soon. Hopefully, if we can get a thread where we can post reports of specific decisions Grigson has supposedly been making, we can all have more clarity.

Micro management is rarely a good philosophy. If the employees designated to do the job can't perform the job, they shouldn't have been given the job to begin with and should be replaced

[pacolts56]

I agree, if true. And, I agree with you, you need to have a clear decision path laid out by the owner. How about this....

Has anybody considered the possibility that there was/is an understanding that Grigson make certain decisions about the offensive line? Pagano's background is DBs..and Grigsons background is SPECIFICALLY OLINE. What was Peps specialty?

Perhaps Irsay (and even Pagano) feel that Grigson is very qualified to make oline decisions (I don't know where Joe Gilbert fits into this)

And so far, the reports that have been rumored all center on Grigson meddling in oline decisions...nothing else.

If I were trying to find out the truth, I would ask...

Did Grigson make offensive lineup decisions WHEN ARIANS WAS INTERIM HC, against Arian's objections? Certainly these reliable "numerous NFL sources" could find that out pretty quickly.

All fair questions...especially when we recall the revolving door at C last season.

 

But its still a troubling picture.

 

Let the GM be a GM and own THAT part of the operation....and likewise, let the Head Coach and staff own game day decisions.

 

There's plenty of clear accountability built into that structure....but when the lines get blurred, we run the risk of this stuff we're hearing about now.

[crazycolt1]

We really don't know what's going on, no 'source' is ever named.  But if what we're hearing is true then Irsay needs to make a move.

 

The really smart owners let the guys they hire do THEIR jobs.  Not theirs and someone else's. 

 

To paraphrase Parcells, Irsay lays out the budget for Grigson to by the ingredients.  It should be up to Chuck to cook the meal.

 

IMHO, Grigson hasn't used the budget very well.

I don't see why you think Grigson hasn't used the budget well. When he took the job the Colts had 38 million in dead cap space. He took care of that while at the same time made the moves that earned him the GM of the year. Since Grigson has been here there have been no cap issues.

[Mr.Debonair]

Everything matters when your team is losing.

[crazycolt1]

I think Grigson's involvement has been blown way out of proportion. That is what happens when you lose. Everyone starts putting everything under the microscope. No one had anything to say about this when the team was going 11-5 for three seasons. I think some of the problem is the media ax grinding on the Colts. It has become pretty chic to dis on the Colts. Has Grigson made some poor choices? Yes. That is what happens when a team does hire a 1st. time GM. Even veteran GMs have their hits and misses. Did Grigson set the bar too high his first year? Maybe. Has there even been a first time GM that has started with 38 million in dead cap space, drafted pretty much a starting offense with little to work with and still helped the team to go three 11-5 seasons? There seems to be some who overlook the good things that Grigson has done because the team is slumping and losing brings out all the finger pointing out. Grigson is no different than anyone taking a new job. You learn from experience and there will be times everything is not going to run smooth. There is yet to be a perfect GM or head coach. Even the so called legend GMs and coaches started out and learned from making mistakes.

[lollygagger8]

Grigs needs to keep his nose out of so much personnel decisions and let the coaches do (or at least try to do) their jobs.

 

 

He doesn't have anywhere near the track record as Na'Polian, so he can't try to act like him and allow his ego to run things. 

 

 

 

Sit down, Grigs. 

[jaybird95]

There's zero evidence for it so far.

[Thewholefnshow28]

Micro management is rarely a good philosophy. If the employees designated to do the job can't perform the job, they shouldn't have been given the job to begin with and should be replaced

 

Exactly.  Micro management is rarely good for any kind of work environment.  You hired the people so you need to let them do their job without you meddling.  The quickest way to kill moral is to be a micro manager and disdain for management will grow the more you micro manage. If you have to micro manage then you did a bad job as a manager hiring those people.

 

If the reports are true that Grigs is a control freak and meddles in places he should not know wonder this season has floundered. The sad thing is if Grigs has the ear of Irsay then there is not much people under him can do because Irsay will not see how the micro management ruins things.   

[crazycolt1]

Grigs needs to keep his nose out of so much personnel decisions and let the coaches do (or at least try to do) their jobs.

 

 

He doesn't have anywhere near the track record as Na'Polian, so he can't try to act like him and allow his ego to run things. 

 

 

 

Sit down, Grigs. 

Grigson is the GM. It is his job to make decisions. Maybe if Grigson would have had more hands on with Pep it might not have turned out like it did? So maybe he don't have his nose in everybodys job like some think? Yes he is not Polian, he has a better track record in his first here years than Polian did in his first three years.

[crazycolt1]

Exactly.  Micro management is rarely good for any kind of work environment.  You hired the people so you need to let them do their job without you meddling.  The quickest way to kill moral is to be a micro manager and disdain for management will grow the more you micro manage. If you have to micro manage then you did a bad job as a manager hiring those people.

 

If the reports are true that Grigs is a control freak and meddles in places he should not know wonder this season has floundered. The sad thing is if Grigs has the ear of Irsay then there is not much people under him can do because Irsay will not see how the micro management ruins things.   

Irsay is no rookie at running a team or a business. Maybe it would be a good thing to wait and see how things turn out? Losing brings out everyone with their microscope and then the fingers start pointing. You said it best, if the reports are true.

[jvan1973]

Grigson is the GM. It is his job to make decisions. Maybe if Grigson would have had more hands on with Pep it might not have turned out like it did? So maybe he don't have his nose in everybodys job like some think? Yes he is not Polian, he has a better track record in his first here years than Polian did in his first three years.

If pep was the wrong man for the job he shouldn't have been hired. Better yet, Pagano should have been allowed to hire his own staff like most other head coaches

[Jonathan24]

This has come up too many times..... FIRE GRIGS NOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!  Let Irsay get back on drugs he was a better owner then.

[Iancolts]

Grigson will be the reason FA don't come to the colts. Let the HC do his job!!

[Corndog]

Whatever the truth about all this is.....the line of demarcation should have been CLEARLY set out by Irsay when he made the decision to pair a 1st time GM with a 1st time Head Coach.

The Colts were bound to hit a rough spot somewhere along the line....and this kind of crap, if its true, is the risk you run when roles and responsibilities aren't clearly spelled out BEFORE the individuals are hired.

Grigson, him having a decent but not great run as GM, simply doesn't have the front line experience or the earned respect as a GM to be doing what has been reported IF it is indeed true. I'm not sure how much seasoned GM's even do that...does anyone else know?

But if it is true and Irsay IS allowing it...he's a *, and good luck with his "big game hunting" because no top flight head coach candidate will ever put up with some above average GM who's made his own share of mistakes and is still cutting his teeth, trying to shotcall game day decisions.

I think your last point might be the biggest problem.  If the Colts decide to move on from Pagano, what quality head coach wants a GM that is going to be interfering with their job?  This is not the first time it has happened and it won't be the last.  Jerry Jones was known for this happening as well.  There is a reason Belichick is the GM/Head Coach, granted he has done a great job at both, but he doesn't want any interference from a GM.  Polian started to interfere in the coaching in his last season or two, but didn't when Dungy was coaching.  

 

Sometimes it has to do with a GM not trusting the coach, which as another said, if that is the case a better coach should be hired.  It does seem like Jones is more hands off since Garrett found success, but when the Cowboys were struggling he was in the coaches ear.  Same with Polian and Caldwell. 

 

The main things I know with Grigson interfering is the o-line and they kept starting Trent Richardson because of him.  There are many examples of GMs not wanting to admit they are wrong and want to keep starting their guys.  Grigson drafted most of the line minus Costanzo, and did not really address it this year.  Might be a bit of that with the o-line, I drafted these guys they will be fine mentality. 

 

Also, reading the power structure article, it seems like Grigson/Pagano don't have clear cut lines between them.  So maybe it also a power struggle between both of them where they both cross each other's lines.  That would be Irsay's fault for not setting boundaries. 

[Jonathan24]

There's zero evidence for it so far.

 

 

The evidence is dorsett coming in and being the #4 WR.  I think duron didn't make the roster because Grigs didn't want the egg on his face.

[ColtRider]

The NFL is run like many other companies & corporations. Bottom line is : Tote the line, or sink behind it. Whoever is ultimately responsible for not running the organization like this, unless it's Irsay, has to be gone. Now, if the GM & owner are both responsible ...

Houston, we have a problem.

[DougDew]

As far as meddling in the the Oline...that's an overstatement, we're talking about three positions on the oline. Nobody questions starting AC at LT or Cherilous at RT. When there is clearly superior talent, who should start is obvious.

So we're talking about meddling in decisions that involve LG,C, and RG who are 3rd and 4th round and UDFA talent combined with vet free agents who can only command a team friendly contract.

Would it have changed things much which one started over the next?

Were and are there clearly superior players at the C or G positions who got benched in order to serve a egomanic's personality? Is that the accusation?

[jvan1973]

As far as meddling in the the Oline...that's an overstatement. Nobody questions starting AC at LT or Cherilous at RT. When there is clearly superior talent, who should start is obvious.

So we're talking about meddling in decisions that involve LG,C, and RG who are 3rd and 4th round and UDFA talent combined with vet free agents who can only command a team friendly contract.

Would it have changed things much which one started over the next?

Were and are there clearly superior players at one position who got benched in order to serve a egomanic's personality? Is that the accusation?

It doesn't matter, the coach should have final say on the game day lineup.

[MB-ColtsFan]

It matters when it comes to assigning blame on why this team is *underachieving*. How can anyone justify firing Page when he has had a limited role in HC decision making?

I can't truly decide if he's a good/bad coach until he's able to make all HC decisions.

Ultimately, if these reports of Grigs making any HC decisions are true, it's up to Irsay to smack his wrists and put him in his place.

I wonder, did Jim act this way when he was GM??

[Mameluc]

I want to know who Grigson is saying can't play that should be playing? I don't see anybody that is starting on the O line that should not be starting. And I don't see anybody starting at the skill positions that should not. I can't see how chuck would conclude that anybody else should be playing other than who we have in there now. Where is the divide?

i think the point was that Grigson made Chuck start Louis at LG, Herremans at RG and Mewhort at RT. I can tottally see that since i remember some interviews where he was raving about louis and how he was the best OL on bears before injury etc etc. 

 

I can also see herremans since he got him and Mewhort since he talked about versatility with him

[Mameluc]

There's zero evidence for it so far.

I think players starting to speak up (albeit anonymous) and players meeting only to deal with this is sufficient "circunstancial" evidence.

 

 

**BRADY***

[DougDew]

It doesn't matter, the coach should have final say on the game day lineup.

Did he? Or didn't he?

I mean, as far as the Louis and Herreman choices, do we know that Pagano wanted someone else and Grigson demanded those two start...or are we just assuming that because Grigson signed Herreman in the offseason.

And what about Reitz? He's doing well at RT. Why would Grigson demand that he NOT start the season just after signing him to a 3 million per year 3 year contract...starters money?

So if Grigson demands that Herremans start just because he signed him to a small 1 year contract, then that means he should have demanded that Reitz start, right?

Not only is there no evidence that Grigson was meddling (over what Pagano wanted)....the accusations don't even make sense.

I think its possible that these reliable "multiple NFL sources" are nothing more than a bunch of agitators.

[csmopar]

I want to know who Grigson is saying can't play that should be playing? I don't see anybody that is starting on the O line that should not be starting. And I don't see anybody starting at the skill positions that should not. I can't see how chuck would conclude that anybody else should be playing other than who we have in there now. Where is the divide?

I'm thinking the same thing, I'm confused too. 

[csmopar]

"circunstancial" 

 

 

wth does this mean?

 

are you trying to say circumstantial?

[Btown_Colt]

As far as meddling in the the Oline...that's an overstatement, we're talking about three positions on the oline. Nobody questions starting AC at LT or Cherilous at RT. When there is clearly superior talent, who should start is obvious.

So we're talking about meddling in decisions that involve LG,C, and RG who are 3rd and 4th round and UDFA talent combined with vet free agents who can only command a team friendly contract.

Would it have changed things much which one started over the next?

Were and are there clearly superior players at the C or G positions who got benched in order to serve a egomanic's personality? Is that the accusation?

I get the feeling is that he meddling in more than just the oline, and it wasn't just last year. Maybe he made them play Luck, knowing he was injured?

None of us know for sure, but the point is there shouldn't be this type of distraction, and it should have been stopped before it was allowed to escalate.

I don't think we have all these reports, if there isn't at least a hint of truth to the rumors.

[crazycolt1]

If pep was the wrong man for the job he shouldn't have been hired. Better yet, Pagano should have been allowed to hire his own staff like most other head coaches

We dont know exactly who hired Pep. Maybe he was brought in because of his ties with Luck at Stanford. All this drama is magnified only because the Colts are slumping. No one even mentioned this till the finger pointing started. Pep is gone, so lets wait and see what unfolds. It is apparent that Pep was the wrong man to hire but it's not like this don't happen to most teams at one time or another. The Colts are no exception. The normal revolving door of coaches in the NFL is nothing new.

[ColtRider]

Franchises are departmentalized just as any other sport/business. It's done for a reason. Delegation begats responsibility. Responsibility begats results. Results begat profit. That's the simplistic chain of any sport/business worth their salt. Dismantle any portion of that and it starts to crumble, real quick. What I'm saying here is, if the order of command is not followed along with its responsibilities & laid out directives, (unless subordination takes place) and mixing becomes involved with other duties not of your own, then it stands to reason your franchise/company will suffer long term up & until things are straightened & fixed.

If, and I've been saying IF, this is the problem the Colts are suffering? Only the owner makes this call, and lies with the decision on his own. Good or bad, we live with it.

[Jason_]

The evidence is dorsett coming in and being the #4 WR.  I think duron didn't make the roster because Grigs didn't want the egg on his face.

 

Duron didn't make the roster because he's not good enough to play at a high level in the NFL.

[TKnight24]

This has come up too many times..... FIRE GRIGS NOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!! Let Irsay get back on drugs he was a better owner then.

Yeah........... you're outta here

[CanuckColt]

Yes, it matters.

How can the coaches do their jobs and get the most out of the players if Grigson is interfering with their decisions.

Grigson should be concentrating on fixing his own shortcomings like paying significant money on over-the-hill players who are running on empty (or close to it)...not to mention reviewing his scouting staff and weeding out the people who have come up with duds or contributed very little.

[DougDew]

i think the point was that Grigson made Chuck start Louis at LG, Herremans at RG and Mewhort at RT. I can tottally see that since i remember some interviews where he was raving about louis and how he was the best OL on bears before injury etc etc. 

 

I can also see herremans since he got him and Mewhort since he talked about versatility with him

Bingo! I think the starting lineup at the beginning of the season is what is feeding this stuff.

And because Grigs signed Herremans and made the comments about Louis, we assumed he wanted them to start over players that Chuck thought were better.

How do we know that Chuck wanted JM at LG, HT at RT (BTW,which wasn't possible because he was injured) and JR at RT right off at the beginning of the season?

They played two games, they failed, and the lineup changed when HT was healthy.

Where's the Grigs led conspiracy here?