Freeman Taunting Call

[Jim_Mora_Reruns]

Showboating stinks.

If it was allowed many of these guys would be waving guns and handfuls of $$$ on the sidelines, while down by 20.

No props allowed during excessive celebrations!

[RockThatBlue]

Another mistake by Pagano, if you ask me.

This exact same thing just happened a few weeks ago with Vontae Davis. Can't remember who he was defending or who we were playing (someone help me here), but he successfully defended an endzone pass and then stood over his man mocking him, erasing his good effort and granting a first down to our opponent.

Pagano didn't have the stones to send Freeman to the locker room. This kind of garbage will continue unabated, because our coach didn't send the message. We ended up losing by 35 points, we're headed into the postseason, and he allowed Freeman to get away with this garbage, a mistake that started the snowball rolling.

As for the refs; I will NEVER fault the refs for calling a penalty on a clear infraction of the rules. I'm not going to sit here like a child and whine about what was and wasn't called on the other team. Freeman CLEARLY broke a rule, one that is excessively easy to obey.

If I remember right though, Vontae and the other player were jawing at each other after the play but they flagged Davis for it. So its a bit different than what freeman did. The Davis call was kind of dumb I thought, players jaw at each other all the time. The freeman call was spot on though and freeman was dumb for it.

[krunk]

I think it's AWFUL to give someone a 15 yard penalty for something so weak.  I could see if it was 5 yards, but 15 shouldn't be given for something like that ever.

[Jason_]

It wasn't a "mistake", Jason. 

 

It was a bad decision. One that cannot be repeated. We simply cannot risk doing anything remotely similar to this in the postseason. 

 

Don't call that a mistake. 

 

ok now you're just quibbling over semantics.  The word I used wasn't strong enough for you.  By the way, the actual definition of "mistake" is "an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong".  Isn't what Freeman did "an action" that was "wrong"?  Yeah, that's a mistake.  He made an error in judgement, as did Vontae.  Two errors in judgement over a span of several weeks does not make a "coaching/discipline problem" imo.

[Jason_]

Understood.  I was agreeing with you, and contrasting what Pags did (nothing?) to what a good coach would do.

 

Do you think Ditka would have tolerated that stupidity?  Or Bill Parcells?  Or Tom Landry?  Or Vince Lombardi? 

 

Point is we have no idea what Pags did about it.  All we know is that Freeman wasn't yanked from the game, which I don't think he should have been.  Sit him for a few plays?  Sure.  Talk to him about it on the sideline?  Absolutely.  No reason to yank him from the game though and send him to the lockerroom.  All that does is satiate a few overreacting fans.

[ruksak]

ok now you're just quibbling over semantics.  The word I used wasn't strong enough for you.  By the way, the actual definition of "mistake" is "an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong".  Isn't what Freeman did "an action" that was "wrong"?  Yeah, that's a mistake.  He made an error in judgement, as did Vontae.  Two errors in judgement over a span of several weeks does not make a "coaching/discipline problem" imo.

No. THAT (^^^) is semantics. Drumming up a dictionary definition IS a practice in semantics. 

 

A "mistake", within the realm of football, is grabbing a WR by his jersey, jumping offsides etc. A "bad decision" is making a tremendous drive stopping play and feeling it wise to stand over your fallen opponent and jaw them for no less than 3 seconds. 

 

Whatever Pags said to him, I find empty. Words mean little, action says much. The rest of the team certainly didn't hear what Pags said to him. They would most assuredly "hear" the message if they saw him get dressed down, literally. 

[Dark Superman]

Pagano and Pep need to go.. And whoever the offensive line coach is..

[el duderino]

The NFL wanted Dallas to win that game.. And it showed.

 

we didnt show up.. And it showed.

[JColts72]

That call, the horrible punt call/easy catch dropped from own 19 and another Luck Int. led to 21 fast points. All it take sis one negative play to set the tone for a whole game usually.

[ruksak]

I think it's AWFUL to give someone a 15 yard penalty for something so weak.  I could see if it was 5 yards, but 15 shouldn't be given for something like that ever.

The NFL doesn't want to present that image. One of a gaggle of on-edge punks. 

 

Think of it with this perspective; Would people be more likely to speed if the penalty for speeding was a $15 fine? 

[Jason_]

No. THAT (^^^) is semantics. Drumming up a dictionary definition IS a practice in semantics. 

 

A "mistake", within the realm of football, is grabbing a WR by his jersey, jumping offsides etc. A "bad decision" is making a tremendous drive stopping play and feeling it wise to stand over your fallen opponent and jaw them for no less than 3 seconds. 

 

Whatever Pags said to him, I find empty. Words mean little, action says much. The rest of the team certainly didn't hear what Pags said to him. They would most assuredly "hear" the message if they saw him get dressed down, literally. 

 

First, I said that you were "quibbling over semantics", not that anything was "a practice in semantics".  Essentially, you're complaining that I didn't use a strong enough word, in your opinion.  that's what this all boils down to and continuing that line of conversation is just not something I have any desire to do right now.

 

we agree that what he did was something he should not have done and something that shouldn't have been done in the first place.  And pulling Freeman from the game and forcing him to dress down into street clothes is, again, a ridiculous overreaction in the heat of the moment.  That's an emotional response, not an intelligent one.  Address it in meetings.  Address it in the lockerroom.  Fine him after the fact if you want, force him to run laps, whatever you want to do behind closed doors where only the team is involved. 

[akcolt]

No it is not, I have seen it go on without any flag.  My issue with the refs is not that they called it on Freeman, it is that they are inconsistent with it.  You are right about it being a very easy penalty to avoid.

That is the problem is it is not called consistently. As a Colts fan I didn't think he deserved the call. Football is an emotional game it was a huge stop forcing a punt the flag they punch it in then Dewey drops the wide open fake punt we were done before we got started

 

I had no problem with the fake that early and in that position I believe it was something they saw on film and it was probably Mac's call on the field if they leave the gunner uncovered throw out there. It is disappointing he didn't complete the play.

 

We live to fight another day.

[Superman]

*We hope

The best assurances would've been given if Pagano sends Freeman to the Locker room. It sends a clear message. "Any of you do what he did, you're out". We simply cannot do these things and try to call ourselves a "monster".

That's overboard, IMO. Everyone knows he messed up, and I'm sure he'll get it this week in practice and film study. I don't think it needs to be carried out publicly for the team and the player to get the point. And as a matter of fact, I think the worst punishment for Freeman was to stay out there and take the butt whoopin that he contributed to.

[Cynjin]

That is the problem is it is not called consistently. As a Colts fan I didn't think he deserved the call. Football is an emotional game it was a huge stop forcing a punt the flag they punch it in then Dewey drops the wide open fake punt we were done before we got started

 

I had no problem with the fake that early and in that position I believe it was something they saw on film and it was probably Mac's call on the field if they leave the gunner uncovered throw out there. It is disappointing he didn't complete the play.

 

We live to fight another day.

However knowing that the refs might call it should be reason enough not to do it. I do hope they change the way the call taunting to make it more consistent.

The fake punt call was fine with me for the reason you stated, Dewey should have caught the ball.

[akcolt]

First, I said that you were "quibbling over semantics", not that anything was "a practice in semantics".  Essentially, you're complaining that I didn't use a strong enough word, in your opinion.  that's what this all boils down to and continuing that line of conversation is just not something I have any desire to do right now.

 

we agree that what he did was something he should not have done and something that shouldn't have been done in the first place.  And pulling Freeman from the game and forcing him to dress down into street clothes is, again, a ridiculous overreaction in the heat of the moment.  That's an emotional response, not an intelligent one.  Address it in meetings.  Address it in the lockerroom.  Fine him after the fact if you want, force him to run laps, whatever you want to do behind closed doors where only the team is involved. 

Yeah come on really they wanted him sent to the locker room or street clothes that's ridiculous. I am sure it was handled in the locker  room where it should have been. I doubt there was any sort of fine even. He made a great play and was jacked up lost his head it stinks the result was a first down and the beginning of an avalanche. I am glad we are finally covering RB's out of the backfield.  

 

If it were something that happens over and over with Freeman different story. That is not the case. I have seen the exact play not draw a flag.

[coltsfanmilyman]

The Freeman call was the right call, you even saw his fellow teammates pushing him away, so they all knew it was wrong.  My problem is; again; per usual the case with NFL officiating.  That Same series Dez Bryant is lined up at the bottom, talking all kinds of mess to the safety, flapping his arms in the air, but the official right next to him doesn't call any kind of flag.  It wasn't that Dez trying to swat away a fly, he was jawing and pointing at Brown I believe, how was that not taunting, or at least a false start because Dez never got set?

[akcolt]

However knowing that the refs might call it should be reason enough not to do it. I do hope they change the way the call taunting to make it more consistent.

The fake punt call was fine with me for the reason you stated, Dewey should have caught the ball.

I absolutely agree Freeman has to have better control of his emotions but in the heat of the game and it was a big play a great read and react by Freeman. I am pretty sure he gets it and the coaches reinforced it in his memory. Being sent to the locker room is simply ridiculous.

[ruksak]

That's overboard, IMO. Everyone knows he messed up, and I'm sure he'll get it this week in practice and film study. I don't think it needs to be carried out publicly for the team and the player to get the point. And as a matter of fact, I think the worst punishment for Freeman was to stay out there and take the butt whoopin that he contributed to.

I want direct and severe consequence for direct and severe fouling of the rules. 

 

The crux of my entire point is that this is easily the simplest rule to obey in football, aside from dress code, and even that could be accidentally violated. 

 

It was a 0-0 game and we were getting the ball back. The consequence suffered upon the team and it's fans for that "mistake" was severe, and the consequence handed to Freeman should've been dealt accordingly. Swift and severe. 

 

We cannot risk future incidents. That's two (2) in recent weeks. 

 

On a somewhat unrelated coaching note; I was NOT impressed when the CBS sideline reporter said she asked Chuck what was his plan to turn things around and she said he scratched his head and exclaimed "I don't know". By the way we came out in the 3rd, I was given assurances that her reporting was accurate. 

[ponyboy]

I typed "OMG" because I knew immediately, before the flag even came out.

 

Same here.  I immediately thought "OMG, turn around and celebrate with your teammates -- don't blow it with a taunting penalty". Then came the flag.  I love the emotion but celebrate with your teammates.

[dw49]

That's overboard, IMO. Everyone knows he messed up, and I'm sure he'll get it this week in practice and film study. I don't think it needs to be carried out publicly for the team and the player to get the point. And as a matter of fact, I think the worst punishment for Freeman was to stay out there and take the butt whoopin that he contributed to.

 

 

On another subject... I think you should just post a gigantic F for the Dallas game. There is no way that doesn't cover everything 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Ya well I didn't see taunting there also every other team does that same thing freeman did and it don't get called. ridiculous call.

 

I see players get away with jawing, both standing up and walking away looking over their shoulder, but not this.  What Freeman did gets called every time I've seen it.  Any team, any player.  This was quite flagrant as he was over him a fairly long time-

 

Especially this right arm whipping motion thing he did just before Cory Redding gets there to stop him (too late of course!)  D'QJax and Arthur Jones were right behind but much too late. Damage done. 15 yards unsportsmanlike penalty.  i really hate those.  We've had more than out share and i think it shows lack of discipline and respect.

 

Of the many things we need to 'clean up' that is one I wish would get top billing. Eliminate mental errors.  Then reduce/eliminate physical errors.

 

Edit:  BTW, I also have a picture that shows the pass was actually incomplete as the point of the ball clearly hits the ground over the right shoulder of Dunbar as Freeman drove him into the turf.  Immaterial considering the outcome.

[Superman]

I want direct and severe consequence for direct and severe fouling of the rules.

The crux of my entire point is that this is easily the simplest rule to obey in football, aside from dress code, and even that could be accidentally violated.

It was a 0-0 game and we were getting the ball back. The consequence suffered upon the team and it's fans for that "mistake" was severe, and the consequence handed to Freeman should've been dealt accordingly. Swift and severe.

We cannot risk future incidents. That's two (2) in recent weeks.

On a somewhat unrelated coaching note; I was NOT impressed when the CBS sideline reporter said she asked Chuck what was his plan to turn things around and she said he scratched his head and exclaimed "I don't know". By the way we came out in the 3rd, I was given assurances that her reporting was accurate.

Thing is, it doesn't matter what YOU want. Not to be rude or condescending, but the coaches should not make decisions based on what the fans would like to see. It's their job to win games (yesterday notwithstanding) and make decisions based on their insight and judgment. Your desire for a pound of flesh isn't really relevant.

Also, while Freeman was wrong, it wasn't all that severe. It was a heat of the moment reaction after a big stop. Not excusing it, but it wasn't all as bad as you're saying. I wouldn't use the word severe at all. If he had done something violent, different story.

I don't agree with the micro-criticisms lf coach-speak, so I'm not going there. I'll say that I think they were gonna pack it in at halftime either way.

[cbear]

Well, since everyone is being blamed for this loss and should be fired or cut, why not include the refs.

 

As to the OPs question, the NFL should make a video of Freeman and send it to the entire league as an example of what will be called as taunting.  When he was doing it, I was thinking where's the flag?  I thought he got away with it for a second.  I have never seen a guy do what Freeman did (stand over his man for several seconds yelling at him) without being flagged.  Just nuts.

[ruksak]

Thing is, it doesn't matter what YOU want. Not to be rude or condescending, but the coaches should not make decisions based on what the fans would like to see.

Where did I even hint at this being a move to sate the fans? 

 

That most certainly was NOT my point. 

[Jason_]

I want direct and severe consequence for direct and severe fouling of the rules.

 

and I want to be able to come on to the forum after a loss without having to read through dozens upon dozens of threads calling for anyone who made a mistake to be cut, fired, terminated, dipped into liquid-hot magma etc etc.

 

for the record, just curious, when was the last time you saw an NFL player sent to the lockerroom and forced to dress down into street clothes after committing a taunting penalty?

[ruksak]

I see players get away with jawing, both standing up and walking away looking over their shoulder, but not this.  What Freeman did gets called every time I've seen it.  Any team, any player.  This was quite flagrant as he was over him a fairly long time-

 

Especially this right arm whipping motion thing he did just before Cory Redding gets there to stop him (too late of course!)  D'QJax and Arthur Jones were right behind but much too late. Damage done. 15 yards unsportsmanlike penalty.  i really hate those.  We've had more than out share and i think it shows lack of discipline and respect.

 

Of the many things we need to 'clean up' that is one I wish would get top billing. Eliminate mental errors.  Then reduce/eliminate physical errors.

There's an almost poetic beauty to the images of what Freeman is doing and the score-box juxtaposed just above the images. 

 

You should be given a million likes for taking the time to illustrate the profundity of Freeman's "mistake" so clearly. Maybe those defending him can take a moment for pause. 

[Jason_]

There's an almost poetic beauty to the images of what Freeman is doing and the score-box juxtaposed just above the images. 

 

You should be given a million likes for taking the time to illustrate the profundity of Freeman's "mistake" so clearly. Maybe those defending him can take a moment for pause. 

 

who are those that have actually been defending Freeman?

[ruksak]

and I want to be able to come on to the forum after a loss without having to read through dozens upon dozens of threads calling for anyone who made a mistake to be cut, fired, terminated, dipped into liquid-hot magma etc etc.

 

Calling this a "loss" is like calling World War II a " cultural misunderstanding".

 

 

 

for the record, just curious, when was the last time you saw an NFL player sent to the lockerroom and forced to dress down into street clothes after committing a taunting penalty?

Precedence is not my concern. The Colts having postseason success IS my concern, to the utmost degree. 

[Superman]

Where did I even hint at this being a move to sate the fans?

That most certainly was NOT my point.

Your first line in the previous post suggested pretty strongly that this is about what you want...

[ruksak]

who are those that have actually been defending Freeman?

Not you nor Superman. There are many that can be clearly seen describing their opinion that they don't think he should've been called for that. 

[GoColts8818]

It was the right call, although equally as right to point out its rarely called. I do think it changed the game. If the Colts get that stop, which they had, then they have the momentum and the ball. They didn't the Cowboys scored had the momentum and it the poor execution on the fake punt and the game spiraled from there. It's amazing how one or two plays can change a game.

It was ticky tack on Freeman to call that taunting but even so Freeman has to be smarter than that. Don't even give the refs a chance to throw the flag. Frankly that's one area of concern I have about the coaches. The Colts are too undisciplined and that Freeman flag is an example of that.

[Susie Q]

Understood.  I was agreeing with you, and contrasting what Pags did (nothing?) to what a good coach would do.

 

Do you think Ditka would have tolerated that stupidity?  Or Bill Parcells?  Or Tom Landry?  Or Vince Lombardi? 

You could add Tony Dungy to that list also.

[ruksak]

Your first line in the previous post suggested pretty strongly that this is about what you want...

I don't want such for my own good, for my own peace of mind. I want such for the greater good of the team. Sorry my wording wasn't more pointed. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Thing is, it doesn't matter what YOU want. Not to be rude or condescending, but the coaches should not make decisions based on what the fans would like to see. It's their job to win games (yesterday notwithstanding) and make decisions based on their insight and judgment. Your desire for a pound of flesh isn't really relevant.

Also, while Freeman was wrong, it wasn't all that severe. It was a heat of the moment reaction after a big stop. Not excusing it, but it wasn't all as bad as you're saying. I wouldn't use the word severe at all. If he had done something violent, different story.

I don't agree with the micro-criticisms lf coach-speak, so I'm not going there. I'll say that I think they were gonna pack it in at halftime either way.

It's not a benching violation, it is actually more a reflection on coaching, IMHO.  The 15 yards was bad enough.  I don't think there was any of the 'extreme talk' the league is fining and sometimes suspending players for.  At least i hope there wasn't.  Otherwise there could be a FedEx letter in Freemans mailbox tomorrow. 

 

I actually feel if Redding could have got there a little quicker, Freeman wouldn't have been flagged.  1 or 2 extra seconds was all it took.

[Jason_]

Calling this a "loss" is like calling World War II a " cultural misunderstanding".

 

 

 

wow.  hyperbole to the rescue right?

 

 

Precedence is not my concern. The Colts having postseason success IS my concern, to the utmost degree.

 

 

so, you haven't?  yeah that's pretty much what I thought.  there's a reason for that.  ;)

[Jason_]

I don't want such for my own good, for my own peace of mind. I want such for the greater good of the team. Sorry my wording wasn't more pointed. 

 

who says what you think is for the greater good of the team actually IS for the greater good of the team?

[hoosierhawk]

Hate to say it but this is a microcosm of our society and how they look at authority in uniform. The ref made the right call by enforcing the rules of the game and is criticized for it. Kind of like our police forces around the country?

[Jason_]

Hate to say it but this is a microcosm of our society and how they look at authority in uniform. The ref made the right call by enforcing the rules of the game and is criticized for it. Kind of like our police forces around the country?

 

don't hate to say it...it's true, and not just about this call.  People have developed a ridiculous sense of self-entitlement.  They want what they want and they want it right now. They want the Colts to win every game and win the SB every year.  They want players disciplined and shamed publicly so they can sit by and watch:

 

[Superman]

It's not a benching violation, it is actually more a reflection on coaching, IMHO. The 15 yards was bad enough. I don't think there was any of the 'extreme talk' the league is fining and sometimes suspending players for. At least i hope there wasn't. Otherwise there could be a FedEx letter in Freemans mailbox tomorrow.

I think the guy was hyped up to play in this big game, and he made a huge play, and he talked some smack. Honestly, if it weren't against the rules, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm a streetballer, we talk smack, we take smack talk, and we live on. Freeman should have known that he would be flagged, and that's why I was upset with it.

As for coaching, see above. You spend a week talking to guys about making plays and get them all fired up, and the guy with a ton of testosterone surging through his body does something a little over the top... I don't think that's coaching. Everyone else on the defense knew that he was over the line, suggesting that the coaches have discussed this kind of stuff often enough. He just lost control for a couple seconds.

That's why I said that I think ruksak is a little overboard. Stupid, stupid decision by Freeman, and it cost his team dearly (I think it changed the game). But you don't send a guy to the showers over it. At that point, it makes no difference.

What you do is you show the play and the flag a hundred times during film study this week to drive the point home.

[ColtsBlueFL]

don't hate to say it...it's true, and not just about this call.  People have developed a ridiculous sense of self-entitlement.  They want what they want and they want it right now. They want the Colts to win every game and win the SB every year.  They want players disciplined and shamed publicly so they can sit by and watch:

 

LOL