Jake Scott OT

[throwing BBZ]

what if we re-reconstruct Freeney's contract...

1. It would give us money

2. it would make him more attractive to trade if he didn't want to stay

3. If he wanted to stay he would retire a Colt.

4.. Here's the Biggy... WE Protect our future

just a thought

Guessing you are a New Colts fan who just started following.

[Superman]

Wouldn't take it, so start questioning lol. Wait, are we talking about Jake Scott or Long?

Jake Scott.

And yes, you're officially insane.

;)

[TKnight24]

Jake Scott.

And yes, you're officially insane.

;)

Oh, I had the wrong Jake then. I told everyone my O-lineman Knowledge isn't too Bright lol.

And let the Record show that a Forum Moderator (The People who are suppose to maintain Order & make sure that our stay here at the Colts Forum is a Happy one) is Name-Calling & called me Insane lol

[Superman]

Oh, I had the wrong Jake then. I told everyone my O-lineman Knowledge isn't too Bright lol.

And let the Record show that a Forum Moderator (The People who are suppose to maintain Order & make sure that our stay here at the Colts Forum is a Happy one) is Name-Calling & called me Insane lol

The record is noted. Indelible ink.

[jbaron04]

Take the structure of Hutchinson's contract, and we can more than afford to pay Scott that kind of money. According to Spotrac, we have over $6 million in cap space right now. Let's take that for what it's worth.

Three years, $16 million total, $4.5 million signing bonus

Year 1: Prorated bonus, $1.5 million + base salary $2 million = cap hit of $3.5 million (total cash outlay of $6.5 million)

Year 2: Prorated bonus, $1.5 million + signing bonus $0.5 million + base salary $4.75 million = cap hit of $6.75 million

Year 3: Prorated bonus, $1.5 million + base salary $5 million = cap hit of $6.5 million

You can make adjustments to that contract structure also, giving him more cash and lowering his future cap hits. I don't think the issue is affordability.

We have young guy we need to develop we are gonna have growing pains but can't over pay I rather wait til 2013 free agents an see what we can get

[John Waylon]

He's asking for enough to cover the bill of getting a haircut and getting to the point where he looks like he's not a kidnapper...

More money than we have cap, most likely.

[NewColtsFan]

I think we should have extended Freeney a long time ago. Him getting hurt doesn't help that cause. It's more likely with every day that goes by that Freeney won't be here next year, and we'll have carried him at a $19 million cap hit all season long. Seems like a waste, when we could extend him and risk nothing more than we are right now, but gain cap space now to make moves like this one.

Excuse me? How in the world do you extend an older player, eat cap space, and not risk anything more than we are right now?

That's going to be a pretty interesting explanation. We risk cap space. This year and -- more importantly -- next year. I don't want to risk cap space on an older guy for next season. Sorry.

Also, are compensation draft picks based on the contract of the player the team loses? Do I have that right? So, by extending Freeney, we wouldn't be gaining a decent draft pick based on his salary or cap hit this year.

It's also entirely possible that we've offered Scott what some here want to and he doesn't want to join the Colts because he doesn't want to be a team that will be sub-500. Perhaps he wants to be on a team that has a very good chance at the playoffs (and also get paid)...

I wouldn't rule that out at all.... just some food for thought....

[dgambill]

Well we have just about as much money under the cap this year as just about anyone else. And we have tons more next year. This isn't a money thing. Could be Grigson doesn't want anyone from the Polian era....I don't think thats it but clearly he likes his own guys...sometimes just paying for the real deal is worth it. It could take years to find a diamond in the ruff like he is trying to do. No matter what name you call it....crap is still crap....and it smells...and so does most our o-line.

And whats up with all the Freeney talk??? His contract is on the book...once he was on the roster for week 1 it went on our books...I don't think we can change that now...extension or not. With his injury...likely won't get much out of him this year anyways...that injury will likely hamper him the whole year.

[Superman]

We have young guy we need to develop we are gonna have growing pains but can't over pay I rather wait til 2013 free agents an see what we can get

What young guy are you talking about? I agree with the principle; if you have promising young players that you've invested resources in, you give them a chance to see the field before you sign someone ahead of them on the depth chart. Otherwise, I'd be interested in Deion Branch. But we don't have any young guards that need to be developed, other than late draft picks and UDFAs. I'd rather have a proven vet who can help the team play better.

Jake Scott is only 31. Getting three good years out of him should be very doable. Considering that Hutchinson signed for three years, and he's 34, I don't see what the problem is.

And we should still be major players in 2013 free agency, even if we were to sign Scott to the Hutchinson contract.

[Superman]

Well we have just about as much money under the cap this year as just about anyone else. And we have tons more next year. This isn't a money thing. Could be Grigson doesn't want anyone from the Polian era....I don't think thats it but clearly he likes his own guys...sometimes just paying for the real deal is worth it. It could take years to find a diamond in the ruff like he is trying to do. No matter what name you call it....crap is still crap....and it smells...and so does most our o-line.

And whats up with all the Freeney talk??? His contract is on the book...once he was on the roster for week 1 it went on our books...I don't think we can change that now...extension or not. With his injury...likely won't get much out of him this year anyways...that injury will likely hamper him the whole year.

His salary is guaranteed, but that doesn't mean we can't adjust the way it gets paid out. If I understand correctly, we could still convert his salary to bonus and spread the cap charge out over multiple years.

[Smitto]

Not sure if you have followed this guy...he is better, imo, than 80% of the guards in the league. I say with him and Essex as the guards...our situation would improve rapidly

I wouldn't say I'm a Jake Scott expert but I have played close attention to him as a colt and titan, and I wouldn't consider him an elite guard by any means... now that I think about it he's been pretty stellar for the titans

[Superman]

Excuse me? How in the world do you extend an older player, eat cap space, and not risk anything more than we are right now?

That's going to be a pretty interesting explanation. We risk cap space. This year and -- more importantly -- next year. I don't want to risk cap space on an older guy for next season. Sorry.

We're talking about $14 million cap space. If we offered Freeney a new, four year contract, $12 million signing bonus, $3 million roster bonus, $1 million base salary in Year 1, he'd get a total of $16 million in cash this season. That's all we'd be on the hook for. However we structure the remaining years on his contract, whatever we negotiate to be "guaranteed," whatever the total value of the contract is, is neither here nor there. If we did the contract I'm talking about, we're essentially guaranteeing him $2 million more than what he's already guaranteed. His cap hit would go from $19 million down to $13 million in 2012.

If we don't want to keep him after this season, we'd have a prorated cap charge of $9 million still to hit the cap, and we could potentially split that dead cap hit between two seasons. We'd be going from a $19 million cap hit in one year to a $21 million cap hit ($13 million + $9 million dead hit) that would be spread out over two seasons, one of which would be in the past.

I can break it down further if you'd like, but the point is that we can structure an extension for Freeney that allows us to release him after next season -- or at any point in the future -- without worrying about him strangling the cap, now or later. It would also make him more tradeable.

I'd rather have an extra $6 million in cap space (now or to roll into 2013) than a potential compensatory draft pick at the end of the 5th round of the 2014 draft. The compensatories this season didn't start until pick #168. So we're talking about a fringe player that's still an underclassmen in college. It's simply not a pertinent piece of the puzzle. I'd rather we had released Freeney before this season started than pay him $14 million with a compensatory pick in mind.

Also, are compensation draft picks based on the contract of the player the team loses? Do I have that right? So, by extending Freeney, we wouldn't be gaining a decent draft pick based on his salary or cap hit this year.

Partially. There are several factors involved. But you don't receive anything better than a 5th rounder for a player that has been in the league for 10 years. And you don't receive the pick until the following year. So if Freeney leaves after this season as a free agent, we'd possibly get a compensatory pick in 2014. To which I say "who cares?" I'd rather have the cap space.

It's also entirely possible that we've offered Scott what some here want to and he doesn't want to join the Colts because he doesn't want to be a team that will be sub-500. Perhaps he wants to be on a team that has a very good chance at the playoffs (and also get paid)...

I wouldn't rule that out at all.... just some food for thought....

Very possible. The Rotoworld quote certainly makes it seem like he's waiting for the best option, and maybe he feels like that's not us.

You weren't around back in 2008, but word is that he and his agent stubbornly refused the Colts best offer, only to sign with the Titans for the exact same money. I could understand having an issue with the management team from 2008, but those guys are all gone. Well, maybe not; Tom Telesco is still in the building. But business is business; if we're offering him a contract in line with what he wants, I can't imagine bad blood being the problem. Your explanation is probably more plausible.

[ColtJ82]

I may be in the minority here...but I don't want Freeney to resign. He is a great Cover 2 DE and a poor OLB. If we could have gotten anything better than a 5th rd pick he would be gone already. Let him play hard for his new contract somewhere else next year and get at a minimum a 5th rd comp pick next year.

I'm not saying he is or isn't a poor OLB because, based on the number of snaps he has taken at that position, it impossible to determine that he is a poor OLB. Therefore, I was just curious how you came to the conclusion that he is a poor OLB?

[Superman]

I wouldn't say I'm a Jake Scott expert but I have played close attention to him as a colt and titan, and I wouldn't consider him an elite guard by any means... better than any guard on the colts? yes but not an elite one or even close to being 80% better than guards in the nfl

He was the 9th highest rated guard in the league last season, according to PFF. Not the be-all, end-all, but dude is highly regarded. And, like you said, he's better than anyone we have, far and away.

[ColtJ82]

I would like to see Jake Scott brought in for 3 million or less. I also wouldn't mind seeing Chad Clifton come in for a look. He is looking to move back to Tennessee or at least somewhere closer to home. He wanted to play at least one more year when he was cut by the Packers. Not sure if he could play right guard, but I would hope he would be better than Justice.

[icf]

Jake is just playing the supply/demand game. He has the supply and is waiting for demand to reach the level he is willing to sell his supply.

true, but every week he doesn't sign is a game check lost. I'm guessing a contract that he would sign would be based on playing in all 16 games.

Let's say he wanted $3M this season (that works out to be $187.5K a game). One game is already gone....so that $3M contract is really now down to about $2.8M.

He probably wont signt this week so that's 2 game checks lost ($375K) -- so his max salary (in my example) is now down to $2.625M.

I think he would be a good sign and if they can make a contract work they should....they have too much invested in Luck to not provide him with the best OLine that they can at this point.

[Smitto]

He was the 9th highest rated guard in the league last season, according to PFF. Not the be-all, end-all, but dude is highly regarded. And, like you said, he's better than anyone we have, far and away.

I just did some searches on him and I stand corrected

[NewColtsFan]

We're talking about $14 million cap space. If we offered Freeney a new, four year contract, $12 million signing bonus, $3 million roster bonus, $1 million base salary in Year 1, he'd get a total of $16 million in cash this season. That's all we'd be on the hook for. However we structure the remaining years on his contract, whatever we negotiate to be "guaranteed," whatever the total value of the contract is, is neither here nor there. If we did the contract I'm talking about, we're essentially guaranteeing him $2 million more than what he's already guaranteed. His cap hit would go from $19 million down to $13 million in 2012.

If we don't want to keep him after this season, we'd have a prorated cap charge of $9 million still to hit the cap, and we could potentially split that dead cap hit between two seasons. We'd be going from a $19 million cap hit in one year to a $21 million cap hit ($13 million + $9 million dead hit) that would be spread out over two seasons, one of which would be in the past.

I can break it down further if you'd like, but the point is that we can structure an extension for Freeney that allows us to release him after next season -- or at any point in the future -- without worrying about him strangling the cap, now or later. It would also make him more tradeable.

First, thanks so much for the detailed response... that was very good of you... really appreciate that.

But we strongly disagree. You think $21mill of a cap hit spread over two years is not too much to endure in order to re-do a deal, lower Freeney's cap number this year and extend him for one more year at pretty big money.

I just couldn't disagree more. Especially since we still have no idea if Freeney can be effective in this scheme. I'm a big Freeney fan, but he can't seem to stay on the field for more than a quarter in the first 5 games so far....

At this point, I see no reason to take the plunge you're suggesting. I don't know what the deadline is for re-doing a deal and changing cap numbers and all, but I'm much more conservative than you are on this one, and I say that with great respect for you and for Freeney....

[Gavin]

I wonder when or if Justin Anderson will be good to go anytime soon, Also the Colts Injury Report lists Justice as Limited Practice, we are down to three healthy Guards not including Hicks on the PS, Im thinking they are going to bring him up to the final 53 roster sooner then what the Colts want if Reitz is out an extended period of time

[bahhummbug]

what if we re-reconstruct Freeney's contract...

1. It would give us money

2. it would make him more attractive to trade if he didn't want to stay

3. If he wanted to stay he would retire a Colt.

4.. Here's the Biggy... WE Protect our future

just a thought

lol freeney wont renogitiate where u been hes taking his 19 million and running

[FireJimCaldwell]

true, but every week he doesn't sign is a game check lost. I'm guessing a contract that he would sign would be based on playing in all 16 games.

Let's say he wanted $3M this season (that works out to be $187.5K a game). One game is already gone....so that $3M contract is really now down to about $2.8M.

He probably wont signt this week so that's 2 game checks lost ($375K) -- so his max salary (in my example) is now down to $2.625M.

I think he would be a good sign and if they can make a contract work they should....they have too much invested in Luck to not provide him with the best OLine that they can at this point.

If I am his agent and 3 million is his #, then I'll make sure any team would know that it is 3 million for the rest of the season whether that is 15 checks or 14.

The players are paid 17 checks, so if he were to sign today he'd be getting 16 more... So Eventually he could price him self out at that 3 million #(i know you were just using that at random), but if he's looking at 175k+ a game, then they could adjust the deal accordingly.

[HtownColt]

I wonder when or if Justin Anderson will be good to go anytime soon, Also the Colts Injury Report lists Justice as Limited Practice, we are down to three healthy Guards not including Hicks on the PS, Im thinking they are going to bring him up to the final 53 roster sooner then what the Colts want if Reitz is out an extended period of time

Gotta wait at least until after the 6th game, then he can play or practice for up to 3 weeks before the team decide to put him on the active roster or put him on IR or something like that. We have a while before we see Justin Anderson this year

[Gavin]

Gotta wait at least until after the 6th game, then he can play or practice for up to 3 weeks before the team decide to put him on the active roster or put him on IR or something like that. We have a while before we see Justin Anderson this year

we cant afford another O Lineman injury thats for sure

[Superman]

First, thanks so much for the detailed response... that was very good of you... really appreciate that.

But we strongly disagree. You think $21mill of a cap hit spread over two years is not too much to endure in order to re-do a deal, lower Freeney's cap number this year and extend him for one more year at pretty big money.

I just couldn't disagree more. Especially since we still have no idea if Freeney can be effective in this scheme. I'm a big Freeney fan, but he can't seem to stay on the field for more than a quarter in the first 5 games so far....

At this point, I see no reason to take the plunge you're suggesting. I don't know what the deadline is for re-doing a deal and changing cap numbers and all, but I'm much more conservative than you are on this one, and I say that with great respect for you and for Freeney....

We're carrying him at $19 million for one year. The $21 million over two years would be under the assumption we released him after this season. The total cap hit we'd have to absorb would be $21 million, based on my numbers. Worst-case scenario. I don't see how that's not an acceptable risk, given the situation we're already in.

Best part about it is that it frees up $6 million in cap space right now.

[ColtJ82]

We're carrying him at $19 million for one year. The $21 million over two years would be under the assumption we released him after this season. The total cap hit we'd have to absorb would be $21 million, based on my numbers. Worst-case scenario. I don't see how that's not an acceptable risk, given the situation we're already in.

Best part about it is that it frees up $6 million in cap space right now.

What would you spend that $6 million on? I am just failing to see what good added cap space is going to do us this year.

[Superman]

Another thing, I don't know if we can do more than $3 million as a roster bonus, but if we can, I would. It would shield a bigger portion of the signing bonus from being prorated in the event of a release.

[Superman]

What would you spend that $6 million on? I am just failing to see what good added cap space is going to do us this year.

You don't have to spend it this year. You can carry it over to next year, which makes sense and allows you to either absorb his cap hit moving forward or to absorb his dead cap hit next season.

But the reason it came up is because we're talking about Jake Scott.

[chad72]

Could be Grigson doesn't want anyone from the Polian era....I don't think thats it but clearly he likes his own guys

That is why Winston Justice is going nowhere, IMO.

The true objectivity of a GM is seen when, in a span of 3 or 4 years, if he is willing to make decisions like cut ties with draft picks in the 3-5 range that HE has made.

Normally, picks in the range rounds 1-2 are given more leeway to prove themselves by almost every team, IMO.

[ColtJ82]

You don't have to spend it this year. You can carry it over to next year, which makes sense and allows you to either absorb his cap hit moving forward or to absorb his dead cap hit next season.

But the reason it came up is because we're talking about Jake Scott.

10-4

[Gavin]

That is why Winston Justice is going nowhere, IMO.

The true objectivity of a GM is seen when, in a span of 3 or 4 years, if he is willing to make decisions like cut ties with draft picks in the 3-5 range that HE has made.

Normally, picks in the range rounds 1-2 are given more leeway to prove themselves by almost every team, IMO.

Justice was a 2nd round pick as well pick 39

[NewColtsFan]

We're carrying him at $19 million for one year. The $21 million over two years would be under the assumption we released him after this season. The total cap hit we'd have to absorb would be $21 million, based on my numbers. Worst-case scenario. I don't see how that's not an acceptable risk, given the situation we're already in.

Best part about it is that it frees up $6 million in cap space right now.

I'm still not following. What good does it do to free up $6 Mill in cap space now -- in September? Who are we going to use that space/money on now? Who is there to buy now? We needed the space in March during Free Agency. This is a great idea for 6 months ago, but I don't see the logic for September?

And to follow your line of thought.... to give us $6 Mill more of space now (which I don't understand) you're willing to remove $10.5 Mill of space for 2013 and 2014. I understand that one even less. I'm totally confused.

Look, I think you're smarter than I am when it comes to this. So, I think you see something that I don't. But for the life of me, I have no idea what you're seeing. I certainly don't see the logic at either end. I don't see the short-term benefit of freeing up $6 mill now, nor do I see the wisdom of eliminating $21 Mill of space over the next two years when we should be getting good.

Help me, oh wise one! I am lost.....

[Superman]

I'm still not following. What good does it do to free up $6 Mill in cap space now -- in September? Who are we going to use that space/money on now? Who is there to buy now? We needed the space in March during Free Agency. This is a great idea for 6 months ago, but I don't see the logic for September?

And to follow your line of thought.... to give us $6 Mill more of space now (which I don't understand) you're willing to remove $10.5 Mill of space for 2013 and 2014. I understand that one even less. I'm totally confused.

Look, I think you're smarter than I am when it comes to this. So, I think you see something that I don't. But for the life of me, I have no idea what you're seeing. I certainly don't see the logic at either end. I don't see the short-term benefit of freeing up $6 mill now, nor do I see the wisdom of eliminating $21 Mill of space over the next two years when we should be getting good.

Help me, oh wise one! I am lost.....

Like I said to ColtJ82, Freeney's contract came up in reference to freeing up cap space for signing someone like Jake Scott. He's a highly rated player that's available at a position we need help at. He's not the only one, either. But he's who we're talking about.

Now is as good a time as any to reiterate that we have the cap space sign a veteran like Scott, assuming the parameters of a comparable pkayer's contract, like Steve Hutchinson.

That aside, the specifics of an extension for Freeney are supposition at this point. Obviously. But with $15 million in bonus money (signing and roster) we could adjust his contract in such a way that it frees up cap space now and gives us the flexibility to get out of it later, if we choose to do so.

What I'm saying about $21 million is worst case scenario: we extend Freeney, he's a dismal failure, we cut him after the season. Highly unlikely. But if it were to happen, we'd have paid him only $2 million more than we're paying him now. And we'd be sacrificing only $2 million more in cap space than we are now. How you disposition that total of $21 million is flexible; it can be all absorbed into the 2012 cap and we're done with it, it can be split between either 2012 and 2013 or 2013 and 2014, depending on the date of the release, or the extra $8 million can all be absorbed into the 2013 cap. But that total of $21 million includes cash to Freeney and dead cap space.

So, what I'm saying is that we can free up cap space and keep flexibility moving forward. Not to mention extending a really good player for another three years or so, without paying him $14 million this year and then giving him another double digit signing bonus next year.

It's not an issue of eliminating $21 million in cap space. Not at all. It's using an extension to free up cap space now -- which can be rolled into next season if you don't want to use it now -- and doing so with only giving up an extra $2 million in cash and cap space, wosrt case scenario.

Four year extension, $12m signing bonus, total value $45m

Year 1: $12m signing bonus + $3m roster bonus + $1m base salary = $15m cash; cap hit = $7m + $5m dead cap hit = $12m

Year 2: $3m roster bonus + $4m base salary = $7m cash; cap hit = $10m

... and so on.

I don't know if that helps, but it's really simple. Total cash this year goes from $14m to $16m. Cap hit in 2012 goes from $19m to $12m. If you keep him after this season, the structure of the contract digs into your cap going forward. If you release him after this year, the prorated portion of the $12m signing bonus has to hit the cap. That would be $9m. I haven't double-checked all my math; but the concept works just fine.

There's no reason to turn our noses up at cap space. We can roll it over. Because of Freeney's high base salary, the cost of extending him only slightly outpaces the cost of leaving his deal as it stands. And even if he's awful in the new scheme and you cut him, the total money hitting your cap is only slightly higher, except you can spread it out over two years to ease the pain a little. Or you can absorb it all into the 2012 cap, just like you're doing now.

This is a lot of words on something that seems unlikely to happen. I'm simply arguing the practicality of it.

[The Peytonator]

Didn't someone post all the team's cap space and ours was around $10 mil?

I'm thinking we could swindle a deal with Scott for around 3 or 4 mil. I don't blame him for not wanting a vet minimum, $500 thousand contract. He's played a lot of years making millions, no reason to spend his NFL golden years playing for peanuts. It's a rough game, and he's still a darn good Guard.

[Gavin]

Didn't someone post all the team's cap space and ours was around $10 mil?

I'm thinking we could swindle a deal with Scott for around 3 or 4 mil. I don't blame him for not wanting a vet minimum, $500 thousand contract. He's played a lot of years making millions, no reason to spend his NFL golden years playing for peanuts. It's a rough game, and he's still a darn good Guard.

and just as important he sounds healthy

[FireJimCaldwell]

Didn't someone post all the team's cap space and ours was around $10 mil?

I'm thinking we could swindle a deal with Scott for around 3 or 4 mil. I don't blame him for not wanting a vet minimum, $500 thousand contract. He's played a lot of years making millions, no reason to spend his NFL golden years playing for peanuts. It's a rough game, and he's still a darn good Guard.

Someone did, but that was a premature calculation(see accountant's have issues too).

The last #'s released were from 9/7

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/08/team-by-team-cap-space-as-of-september-7/

They were calculated properly, and were more in line with my 4-6million of expected space projection.

The # listed was 5.2 million.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Scott at this point in his career is like a successful wrecker driver at 3am. There is a certain amount of $$$ that will get him out of bed, and everything else will have to be ideal to his preferences too.

[Mameluc]

someone needs to tell chappell/kravitz to ask this same question to grigs or Pagano...why on earth havent we signed him

[Yinkgo]

Aunt Bee just PAY the man!

[Thewholefnshow28]

what if we re-reconstruct Freeney's contract...

1. It would give us money

2. it would make him more attractive to trade if he didn't want to stay

3. If he wanted to stay he would retire a Colt.

4.. Here's the Biggy... WE Protect our future

just a thought

You cannot restructure a contract that is in the final year. Also, I am pretty sure that cap hit is all ready set now.

Scott would be an immediate upgrade over everyone we have on the roster at guard so I would be insanely happy if they got a deal done with him. Then again anybody right now would make me happy.

[FireJimCaldwell]

You cannot restructure a contract that is in the final year. Also, I am pretty sure that cap hit is all ready set now.

Scott would be an immediate upgrade over everyone we have on the roster at guard so I would be insanely happy if they got a deal done with him. Then again anybody right now would make me happy.

You can't restructure a contract in the final year, you can however sign an extension.

So far Freeney's contract has counted 5 million and 1/17th of 14 million against the Colts "total cap" for the year. Each week he is on the roster under the current contract would add another 1/17th to the cap if you want to look at it that way. If an extension were signed today, then the remaining 16/17 would be based on those terms. If he were traded then the remaining 16/17 would be removed.