Chubb or Barkley at #3?

[Jaredfor3]

Speaking of the Eagles, CB Patrick Robinson did nothing when he played for the Colts. He goes to Philly, and is a fringe pro Bowler. 

 

As as far as the number three debate goes. Barkley, may not even last to pick number three. If that occurs, you know several nfl teams will be calling the Colts for Rosen or Darnold. As long as Luck is throwing a football by April, I hope Indy trades with a team like the Jets and we land a good player like G Quenton Nelson, ILB Roquan Smith, DE/LB Arden Key, or OT Orlando Brown. In addition we get the Jets high second selection and a future 2019 pick. 

[Str8himalaya]

On 1/20/2018 at 9:46 AM, 21isSuperman said:

Let's take a look at the teams remaining in this year's playoffs on the defensive side of the ball:

Minnesota: #1 ranked scoring defense

Jacksonville: #2 ranked scoring defense

Philly: #4 ranked scoring defense

New England: #5 ranked scoring defense

 

Now let's look at their top RBs:

Minnesota: Latavius Murray - acquired via free agency, originally a 6th round pick

Jacksonville: Leonard Fournette - 4th overall pick

Philly: LaGarrette Blount - acquired via free agency, originally an undrafted rookie

New England: Dion Lewis - acquired via free agency, originally a 5th round pick

 

I think that settles it as to whether a strong defense or a top RB is required to win.  All of the defenses are top 5 in scoring, but 3/4 RBs were originally late round picks or undrafted.

 

One thing is for sure after watching this weekend's games: In this league, getting to the QB is critical to getting to the SB and a RB is not. Chubb has elite agility and COD for a guy his size and has been productive in his time at NC State. If he tests well he could be an even better prospect than many believe. Looking at the offense McDaniels will bring (I paid close attention during the game for this reason), we don't need a game breaking back to be successful on offense, Mack will thrive IMO. Look at what 3 of the 4 defenses are built on in the championship games: Eagles - great rotation of pass rushers (Graham, Long, Cox, Barnett), Vikings - good pass rushers on each end (Hunter and Griffin), Jax - multiple pass rushers that can change the game WITHOUT blitzing (Ngakoue, Fowler, M. Jackson, Campbell). Like was pointed out above, a top tier running back is not needed to compete at the top levels. Sure, if we were stacked on defense like any of those 3 teams, we could do that, but all things considered somewhat equal (Pass rushers vs RB), we must improve our pass rush and OL to truly be competitive. This division will not be a cake walk any longer, very well could be the BEST division in football next year. Have to take the guy that can get to the QB, IMHO.

 

 

[Str8himalaya]

11 hours ago, NDcolt said:

Reason # 1:  Did PS have a Generational QB to stop teams from stacking the box?  NO.

 

Reason # 2:  see Reason # 1.  Bo Jackson couldn’t run against 8 man fronts.

 

Reason 3:  Barkley & Mack would be huge in JM screen offense, imagine Luck with both Barkley & Mack in the backfield!

 

Reason 4:  Its a crap shoot on wether you hit a home run or strike out, with Barkley it’s gauranteed & no back has come out with this kind of skill set.  Did you see the one handed screen catch against the Hoosiers for 30 yds?  Athleticism

 

Reason 5:  Get skinny or Plow ahead for a first down?  Whose to say this 5th rd back works out, seems like playing Russian roulette vs a sure handed thing!

 

Reason 6:  Were not the Pats & no other team can copy what Belichek has done.  If it was that easy everyone would be trading down in the draft to take that no name scrub to turn into a star.

 

Reason 7:  Are you certain Chubb will have a JJ Watt impact?  1-2 sacks a game vs being 30-40% of the offense?  We’re talking #3 overall pick which you better hit a homerun.  Jags/Minny have the two best defenses, got them to the championship game but i thought the goal was SB?

 

Reason 8:  Risk is too high that Chubb will be that Defense MVP we’re hoping vs what Barkley can bring to this offense w/ Luck.  If It was my team the choice is clear, let’s have the top 3 offense n the league vs a top 15 defense.

 

First, I'm not trying to come across poorly, just trying to state a case on why I would not take Barkley. Is he awesome? Absolutely, but I'm not sure he adds more wins to our total than a player like Chubb does. We honestly won't know either way.

 

1. We've had a generational QB for 20 years and we have won 1 SB. And we had a generational RB (Edge), two HOF WRs, and a boarderline HOF TE. Still one SB with the BEST QB of all time (IMO). 1 SB. Do you remember how we got that SB? Because our DEFENSE finally came to play. Ravens game we didn't score a single TD, still won because of our defense. We picked up Booger McFarland and our run defense finally came to play. Let not forget Bob Sanders came back and we shut down two top rushers (Larry Johnson and Jamal Lewis) in back to back games. Lets not pretend that there has NEVER been a RB like Barkley, we hear that every year.

 

2. You're correct, no one can run against 8 man fronts...except terrible 8 man fronts like we've had here for years (up until last year).

 

3. JM can use Mack alone as his Dion Lewis. Sure, could another weapon help, of course! But not at the expense of a game changer on defense.

 

4. No one is guaranteed in the draft, not even Barkley. Does he have a very good makeup and projection? Yes, so do a few other prospects, but no one is a sure thing, almost every draft has shown that.

 

5. I think the point was that the gap between a 1st round pass rusher vs a 5th round pass rusher is much larger than that of a 1st round RB vs a 5th round RB. There are always exceptions, but look at the top rushers over that last few years. Many of them were mid round picks (Kamara, Hunt, L. Bell, J. Howard, etc.), and most have had good defenses to help the team succeed. 

 

6. Reference #5, a lot of teams have found great value in mid-late rounds at RB. I don't know for sure (haven't researched it) but I would venture to say that half the starting RBs in the league are not 1st round selections. 

 

7. No one is certain that any player can be JJ Watt type. Just like no one is certain that Barkley will turn into Barry Sanders. Additionally, we have a great QB, I find it hard to believe we are going to take the ball out of his hands and make a rookie RB the focal point of our offense, ESPECIALLY in McDaniels offense. 30-40% is absolutely no guarantee, probably better chance it's not. If Jax or Minny had Andrew Luck, they would have won those games easily. Jags did have a top 5 RB, however, and that still wasn't enough to win. Gotta have a balance of talent, and adding Barkley over Chubb is just more imbalance for our team. 

 

8. I think risk is all opinion at this point. Additionally, I do not think that we are a top 15 defense without a pass rush. We aren't getting a pass rusher in FA, it has to happen HIGH in the draft. Plus we have a lack luster OL, and no matter the back (Exception of a few HOFers), no OL means no yards and an injured QB. You may have your opinions on how great Barkley is, and you very well maybe right, but I'm not convinced that Chubb isn't a better pick based on current roster construction and value of the position.

[csmopar]

9 hours ago, BleedBlu8792 said:

 

Is this Dr. Phil?

 

Do you need a safe space?

[Smonroe]

Some really good points on both sides in this thread.  

 

I have a strong feeling we’ll get neither.  As most everyone has pointed out, Barkley may be a generational RB but that typically doesn’t add to a team’s chances to take it all.  

 

And when all the evaluations are done we’ll see that Chubb isn’t really any better than Key or even a darkhorse like Landry from BC. 

 

So, I expect the pick to be traded. Personally I wouldn’t mind it if we got all of Buffalo’s four picks in the first two rounds.  Five picks in the top 56 could fill a lot of holes.  

[jshipp23]

1 hour ago, Str8himalaya said:

 

First, I'm not trying to come across poorly, just trying to state a case on why I would not take Barkley. Is he awesome? Absolutely, but I'm not sure he adds more wins to our total than a player like Chubb does. We honestly won't know either way.

 

1. We've had a generational QB for 20 years and we have won 1 SB. And we had a generational RB (Edge), two HOF WRs, and a boarderline HOF TE. Still one SB with the BEST QB of all time (IMO). 1 SB. Do you remember how we got that SB? Because our DEFENSE finally came to play. Ravens game we didn't score a single TD, still won because of our defense. We picked up Booger McFarland and our run defense finally came to play. Let not forget Bob Sanders came back and we shut down two top rushers (Larry Johnson and Jamal Lewis) in back to back games. Lets not pretend that there has NEVER been a RB like Barkley, we hear that every year.

 

2. You're correct, no one can run against 8 man fronts...except terrible 8 man fronts like we've had here for years (up until last year).

 

3. JM can use Mack alone as his Dion Lewis. Sure, could another weapon help, of course! But not at the expense of a game changer on defense.

 

4. No one is guaranteed in the draft, not even Barkley. Does he have a very good makeup and projection? Yes, so do a few other prospects, but no one is a sure thing, almost every draft has shown that.

 

5. I think the point was that the gap between a 1st round pass rusher vs a 5th round pass rusher is much larger than that of a 1st round RB vs a 5th round RB. There are always exceptions, but look at the top rushers over that last few years. Many of them were mid round picks (Kamara, Hunt, L. Bell, J. Howard, etc.), and most have had good defenses to help the team succeed. 

 

6. Reference #5, a lot of teams have found great value in mid-late rounds at RB. I don't know for sure (haven't researched it) but I would venture to say that half the starting RBs in the league are not 1st round selections. 

 

7. No one is certain that any player can be JJ Watt type. Just like no one is certain that Barkley will turn into Barry Sanders. Additionally, we have a great QB, I find it hard to believe we are going to take the ball out of his hands and make a rookie RB the focal point of our offense, ESPECIALLY in McDaniels offense. 30-40% is absolutely no guarantee, probably better chance it's not. If Jax or Minny had Andrew Luck, they would have won those games easily. Jags did have a top 5 RB, however, and that still wasn't enough to win. Gotta have a balance of talent, and adding Barkley over Chubb is just more imbalance for our team. 

 

8. I think risk is all opinion at this point. Additionally, I do not think that we are a top 15 defense without a pass rush. We aren't getting a pass rusher in FA, it has to happen HIGH in the draft. Plus we have a lack luster OL, and no matter the back (Exception of a few HOFers), no OL means no yards and an injured QB. You may have your opinions on how great Barkley is, and you very well maybe right, but I'm not convinced that Chubb isn't a better pick based on current roster construction and value of the position.

I wouldn't blame the construction of the team in the Manning era for not winning more Super Bowls...I would blame having to go against the Patriots dynasty #1...#2, and this is not a popular opinion here, but it's true, Manning had a tendency to CHOKE in high pressure playoff games more often than not...Even during our Super Bowl winning year;  Manning didn't play that well... IT was Bob Sanders that was catalyst in 2007, and THE Manning interception cost us Super Bowl vs Saints in 2009...Truth hurts, but it's still the truth...

[BleedBlu8792]

24 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Do you need a safe space?

Look at you trying to be witty.. /lame

[Smonroe]

34 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

I wouldn't blame the construction of the team in the Manning era for not winning more Super Bowls...I would blame having to go against the Patriots dynasty #1...#2, and this is not a popular opinion here, but it's true, Manning had a tendency to CHOKE in high pressure playoff games more often than not...Even during our Super Bowl winning year;  Manning didn't play that well... IT was Bob Sanders that was catalyst in 2007, and THE Manning interception cost us Super Bowl vs Saints in 2009...Truth hurts, but it's still the truth...

 

I wouldn’t say choke.  But by their own admission the offense was predictable.  It was so well tuned that even though they knew what was coming, most teams couldn’t stop it.

 

Then they’d get to the cream of the teams in the playoffs and they would stop it.  NE, SD, and Pittsburgh all played great D in most of those games.  

[aaron11]

41 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Truth hurts, but it's still the truth...

no, it doesnt hurt

 

how many superbowls do you think we would have won with out him?  we probably wouldnt have ever made it in indy 

[jshipp23]

30 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

no, it doesnt hurt

 

how many superbowls do you think we would have won with out him?  we probably wouldnt have ever made it in indy 

We should have won 3 or 4...We choked against, Chargers, Steelers,  and Jets off top of my head. ..I love Manning he is top 3 all time, but he didn't play his best in the playoffs and that's the truth..

[jshipp23]

38 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

I wouldn’t say choke.  But by their own admission the offense was predictable.  It was so well tuned that even though they knew what was coming, most teams couldn’t stop it.

 

Then they’d get to the cream of the teams in the playoffs and they would stop it.  NE, SD, and Pittsburgh all played great D in most of those games.  

Where were those great defenses of Vikings and Jacksonville when it mattered? 

[Smonroe]

1 minute ago, jshipp23 said:

Where were those great defenses of Vikings and Jacksonville when it mattered? 

 

Okay, I’m not sure what that has to do with why the Colts lost those playoff games years ago.

 

Wrong thread buddy?

 

 

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, Smonroe said:

 

Okay, I’m not sure what that has to do with why the Colts lost those playoff games years ago.

 

Wrong thread buddy?

 

 

Just saying offense wins just as much as defense...As to why Colts lost those years i think it was more of us playing tight and poor coaching other than great defenses beating us...We let the moment get to us...We can add a few pieces on OFFENSE right now and be elite, we have the QB and coach to do it.. Lets be elite on one side, and then focus everything on defense next few years...We can add the Guard, RB, and WR now to do that, and still improve defense as well...Then, next year, we can really go all in on defense and become very scary..I think our defense is already a lot better than people think, and they are YOUNG...Guys are gonna develop and the soft locker room culture Pagano propagated is about to change in a major way..

[Fisticuffs111]

I've seen Key thrown around as another option at pass rush but I hope we don't draft him. High ceiling but high bust potential too, IMO.

[jshipp23]

4 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I've seen his name tossed around, but I really hope we don't draft Key. High ceiling but very high bust potential IMO.

I hope we keep Mingo around and see what Eberflous can do with him...He has all the talent in the world and I saw signs of him coming into his own this year..Could be karma for letting Jerry Hughes go...Jerry Hughes 2.0 I'm hoping..He was a top 5 draft pick at OLB, they never bust though..lol...

[IndyScribe]

6 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

I've seen Key thrown around as another option at pass rush but I hope we don't draft him. High ceiling but high bust potential too, IMO.

Not in the first round, no. No way he's worth the third pick. If he falls into the second, I might consider it.

[IndyScribe]

I'm leaning more towards Chubb lately. Luck and McDaniels will be a great offense and there doesn't need to be stars. Chubb will help a lot on defense.

[Myles]

I'm hoping they trade back a couple spots and grab Nelson.    I think that would help this team more than any other player.  

But out of these 2, I guess Chubb although I am not totally sold on him.  

[CheezyColt]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

Where were those great defenses of Vikings and Jacksonville when it mattered? 

All 4 of the final teams had top 5 defenses. Just because two teams had to lose doesn't make defense any less relevant.  Why does that even need to be said?

[stitches]

Here's something to consider for McDaniels' drafts in Denver:

1. He did draft a RB no. 12 in his first draft in 2009. 

2. He did draft 3 offensive players out of 4 first round picks in his 2 drafts(1 RB, 1 WR, 1 QB and 1 DE).

 

[BleedBlu8792]

59 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's something to consider for McDaniels' drafts in Denver:

1. He did draft a RB no. 12 in his first draft in 2009. 

2. He did drafted 3 offensive players out of 4 picks in his 2 drafts(1 RB, 1 WR, 1 QB and 1 DE).

 

Considering how everything worked out for him in Denver, I don't think we see him follow that same path here in Indy. I doubt he has as much influence on draft picks here as he did in Denver either.

[coltsva]

52 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's something to consider for McDaniels' drafts in Denver:

1. He did draft a RB no. 12 in his first draft in 2009. 

2. He did drafted 3 offensive players out of 4 picks in his 2 drafts(1 RB, 1 WR, 1 QB and 1 DE).

 

So what you’re saying is “thank goodness we have Ballard making the final call on draft day.”

 

 

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, coltsva said:

So what you’re saying is “thank goodness we have Ballard making the final call on draft day.”

 

 

Yes. But my bigger point was - some people assume that because McDaniels has succeeded without having a premier back in NE, he wouldn't want one in Indy. All I'm saying is - that might not be the case. 

[coltsva]

2 hours ago, jshipp23 said:

We should have won 3 or 4...We choked against, Chargers, Steelers,  and Jets off top of my head. ..I love Manning he is top 3 all time, but he didn't play his best in the playoffs and that's the truth..

Such a fine line between winning and losing:

chargers- we were heading towards a blowout and Marvin fumbled. Then Keith fumbles at the goal line (why was a play even called for him!).

Steelers- why does Harper cut back inside  instead of heading towards corner.

saints- garçon drops an easy one over the middle as Colts drive towards a commanding lead. 

 

Too many times we couldn’t overcome the critical mistake.

 

[shasta519]

Give me Fitzpatrick. That guy will be wearing a green sticker on his helmet halfway through his rookie deal. He's exactly the type of player the Colts need in the locker room as well. 

 

I like Chubb, but I would be just as happy with Fitzpatrick. So trade back to #5 or #6 and get whichever one is available. If they are both still there, that's a good problem to have.

[coltsva]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yes. But my bigger point was - some people assume that because McDaniels has succeeded without having a premier back in NE, he wouldn't want one in Indy. All I'm saying is - that might not be the case. 

True, and just maybe he and Ballard agree on Barkley. Can’t wait to find out!

[krunk]

I still worry about how Mcdaniels will respond if a losing streak happens.   I wonder or worry about how he has changed his leadership style to get guys to rally around him.   He hasn't lost games or had significant adversity in quite a while.

[mds]

4 hours ago, krunk said:

I still worry about how Mcdaniels will respond if a losing streak happens.   I wonder or worry about how he has changed his leadership style to get guys to rally around him.   He hasn't lost games or had significant adversity in quite a while.

This!

 

And he is coming from an established culture (and I don’t just mean a winning culture) to one that will need to be established. That takes time. Winning will obviously speed up buy-in, but there will be adversity. 

 

IQ seems very high. How much has he grown his EQ?

[Four2itus]

4 hours ago, krunk said:

I still worry about how Mcdaniels will respond if a losing streak happens.   I wonder or worry about how he has changed his leadership style to get guys to rally around him.   He hasn't lost games or had significant adversity in quite a while.

Good point, but isn't that exactly what coach Pagano did...get guys to rally around him? Not a Pagano hater by any means, but the consensus around here seemed to be that fans wanted a coach that called people out. 

[mahagga73]

McDaniels offense is perfect for a guy like Barkley.  

[krunk]

15 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Good point, but isn't that exactly what coach Pagano did...get guys to rally around him? Not a Pagano hater by any means, but the consensus around here seemed to be that fans wanted a coach that called people out. 

Pagano could sell people to fight and stay together when the chips got down.  That's a great trait to have.  The problem was outside of the roster issues he and his staff were only so so coaches when it came to preparation and the Xs and Os.  Mcdaniels problem at least in Denver was the opposite.  The knock on Mcdaniels in Denver was when the adversity hit nobody wanted to go the extra mile for him.  He didn't have that ability to keep people together I assume because he wasn't used to losing or handling major adversity.  They said he was a guy you didn't want to play for.  This came out of the mouths of the players themselves. They said it was all good when they were winning, but when it went the other direction all the poison came out.   If you want to go far you need good leadership to keep guys focused on the goal at hand.  When your leadership isn't strong then that's when the wheels fall off    I just want to know/see if he has grown enough to keep guys focused when things aren't going right.  And there will definitely be times when that happens.

[Four2itus]

13 minutes ago, krunk said:

Pagano could sell people to fight and stay together when the chips got down.  That's a great trait to have.  The problem was outside of the roster issues he and his staff were only so so coaches when it came to preparation and the Xs and Os.  Mcdaniels problem at least in Denver was the opposite.  The knock on Mcdaniels in Denver was when the adversity hit nobody wanted to go the extra mile for him.  He didn't have that ability to keep people together I assume because he wasn't used to losing or handling major adversity.  They said he was a guy you didn't want to play for.  This came out of the mouths of the players themselves. They said it was all good when they were winning, but when it went the other direction all the poison came out.   If you want to go far you need good leadership to keep guys focused on the goal at hand.  When your leadership isn't strong then that's when the wheels fall off    I just want to know/see if he has grown enough to keep guys focused when things aren't going right.  And there will definitely be times when that happens.

Believe me, I understand. It seems we might need the best of the 2 coaches?

[Ryan43]

Last time we won the Super Bowl we had a RB named Dominic Rhodes.
 

Who was undrafted. 

[Coffeedrinker]

To quote Bill Polian who was quoting Marv Levy... never pass on a pass rusher.

 

The Colts didn't lose 8 games when they trailed at halftime because of the RB position.  They lost those 8 games because the defense couldn't stop anyone in the 2nd half.  Part of that was because of Monachino and his 5 defensive players and some of that was because they had no one who could consistently pressure the QB

 

[Coffeedrinker]

17 minutes ago, Ryan43 said:

Last time we won the Super Bowl we had a RB named Dominic Rhodes.
 

Who was undrafted. 

They also had a RB named Addai who was a 1st round pick.  And that first round pick had 143 total yards in the SB and set a SB record for most receptions by a running back and 1 reception short of the tying the all time record for receptions in a SB.

[Coffeedrinker]

5 hours ago, krunk said:

I still worry about how Mcdaniels will respond if a losing streak happens.   I wonder or worry about how he has changed his leadership style to get guys to rally around him.   He hasn't lost games or had significant adversity in quite a while.

I am willing to bet that you are better at your job than you were 8 years ago.  And I would also be willing to bet that you made some mistakes 8 years ago that you don't make now.  Why is it hard to imagine a coach getting better as well?

 

As far as adversity, losing his starting QB for 4 games and then losing the back up for 1-1/2 games?  Designing plays this year with a very mediocre offensive line, average running backs and above average WR corps?

[jshipp23]

22 minutes ago, Ryan43 said:

Last time we won the Super Bowl we had a RB named Dominic Rhodes.
 

Who was undrafted. 

Robert Mathis was 6th round pick, the All-Pro Guard Norwell we all hope Colts sign was undrafted...So what's yout point?

[Ryan43]

14 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Robert Mathis was 6th round pick, the All-Pro Guard Norwell we all hope Colts sign was undrafted...So what's yout point?

Just making conversation Mr T.

 

Terrell Davis was a six round pick.  We can say this about any player of course.  What’s your point?

[Ryan43]

44 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

They also had a RB named Addai who was a 1st round pick.  And that first round pick had 143 total yards in the SB and set a SB record for most receptions by a running back and 1 reception short of the tying the all time record for receptions in a SB.

 

Who was the 30th overall pick.

[jshipp23]

30 minutes ago, Ryan43 said:

Just making conversation Mr T.

 

Terrell Davis was a six round pick.  We can say this about any player of course.  What’s your point?

You made my point...But yeah, you only take a RB top 5 if he is Really Special...Usually I would be all for Chubb at 3 too...