Beginning of the end for New England [Merge]

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, IinD said:

Drop me a text when they go 2-14. Till then I'm not buying it.

If the Pats win it all this season and BB and Tommy walk off, 2-14 is possible next season. They have no Plan B or a QB that can replace Tom.

[IinD]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If the Pats win it all this season and BB and Tommy walk off, 2-14 is possible next season. They have no Plan B or a QB that can replace Tom.

I hope to see 2-14 for them for the next 20 years. I'm just saying I'm not buying it. Pretty good relationship if you can keep going to SB's if you ask me.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, IinD said:

I hope to see 2-14 for them for the next 20 years. I'm just saying I'm not buying it. Pretty good relationship if you can keep going to SB's if you ask me.

No I agree, I would be shocked if both left but they might if they win it all. Going out on top is the best way to go. Peyton will always be remembered as a Champion because of that. I think after this season the Pats will finally start to decline and I have never said that. I just don't see them 3-peating and Tom will be even older. I do think they win it this season.

[PrincetonTiger]

20 minutes ago, IinD said:

Drop me a text when they go 2-14. Till then I'm not buying it.

Will you be around in a few decades because they play in the AFC East

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Will you be around in a few decades because they play in the AFC East

Take Tom and BB off that team -  I bet they go like 4-12, 2-14 is a stretch.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Take Tom and BB off that team -  I bet they go like 4-12, 2-14 is a stretch.

Very true

[Yehoodi]

3 hours ago, dgambill said:

I agree....it will be handled like the deflategate stuff...answered once and then move on. I agree nothing can be substantiated until the next couple years. Following the team so closely you might be able to closer tell but I would think if Kraft tried to come in and undermine Bill's running of the team (succession, keeping players, etc) I don't think he would blink an eye to tell Kraft where to stick it...and he would move on. After all the Giants and Colts have head coaching openings...he could have his pick of former teams he thinks of fondly to go coach for if he was going to be questioned about how to run his organization. Kraft is a smart businessman.....he has hired and done some good things....meddling with Bill...I don't think would be one of them...nor do I think he would even approach Bill other than how do you see this thing transitioning (so as to not have an Eli situation). Whatever Bill would decide I can't see him disagreeing with. But maybe you might tell differently.

 

Yes time will tell as coaches & players movement and results will given a good picture of the extent of things mentioned in the article.

 

And i agree, nothing will come of this by getting into the details as it will just cause distractions that the team does not need in December.

 

My gut feeling is that Kraft would yield to BB on the Brady situation as he has done so in the past with other key player decisions.  Indeed, BB was allow to trade Bledsoe basically a year after we signed him to be our franchise QB, not to mention not to let him back on the field after he returned from injury.

 

Also, too BB maybe might yield to Kraft a bit, given how Brady has help both their resumes and that TB is still going strong over these last four years. 

 

I may be wrong but my sense was the team wanted to keep Jimmy G for 2 or more years and let TB go around 42-43, but that was not in the cards.   

[Yehoodi]

3 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

I agree with the statement in, I think the conflict is probably overstated.  BB isn't going to resign after New England's season is over.  But is he a little miffed about being overruled on this?  Probably.  Is he worried it's going to come to haunt them in the near future.  Also probably true.  

 

And it's likely also true that TB might be unhappy that his coach isn't buying into him playing at a high level until he's 45.

 

  

 

i hear yah, none of us will ever know the final details or what is going on, regardless of the Pats joint statement.

 

Will all QB transitions, it is not a perfect science unless the next one comes just at the time of the prior's retirement.  in the end there is always an overlap where a judgment call needs to be made comparing the remaining years of the present QB coupled with a future prospect against handing the rains to the next guy for the future.

 

TB does appear to have gas in the tank and Jimmy G. understandably did not want to be a back up if starting jobs are open, thus making the overlap decision tough.  

 

If Jimmy G. is what we think he is, i can understand a person decision to let TB go a few years too early in exchange for all Jimmy G. going forward as one does not know what the next heir will bring. 

 

My two cents is that BB would of like to keep Jimmy G., but if the overlap decision was tough I can see BB also erring on the side of sentiment, given what Kraft, BB, and Brady has done over the last 18 years. 

 

  

[wizwor]

20 hours ago, 19colt said:

Bruce Allen

@bruceallen

 

Source: ESPN readying new hit piece on Bill Belichick, Tom Brady and Robert Kraft set to publish tomorrow morning at 8am. The topic will be a power struggle among the trio as to who deserves the most credit for the dynasty.

Bruce Allen  @bruceallen

1h

The article claims that the rift is so severe many Patriots feel this is the last year together for the trio. Also that Brady went to Kraft to force Belichick to trade Jimmy G. ESPN is planning a full day of promotion tomorrow for the article and its author @SethWickersham

 

Mod edit (edited to add link): http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle

 

Hope springs eternal, I guess.

[Yehoodi]

3 hours ago, Narcosys said:

Fair. Since I only know really of his injury season and his suspension where he has not started, and definitely should not include games where he was rested. I do not know if the onsies and twosies where he sat out for a game or two due to other injuries. So I counted it as 14-6. But I clearly misread because I was certain you went 3-1 in the first 4 games. So the number would be .650, not .700. Which translates into something like 25 games and not 20. 

 

Regardless of the strength of schedule, and irrelevant, it was a fluke you didn't make the playoffs with an 11-5 record. So saying BB couldn't make the playoffs without brady is a stretch. But you seem to be making the case that you only succeeded because of the schedule. Possibly. 

 

But I think it is a stretch to say that BB isn't a significantly large part as to why the Patriots have been successful. Defenses have more than once won you the SB. That's something that TB had no control over. 

 

Agreed . . . 

 

I never liked just looking at numbers and things need to be looked in perspective.  Getting back to Bledsoe 2000/2001.  Although the Pats went 5-11 (2000) and 0-1 (2001) and then went on to win 3 SBs in 4 years, there are caveat imo there too.  2000 was BB's first year, we brought in some more folks in 2001, Vrabel, Cox, Phifer, drafted Light and Seymour, etc.  and maybe the pats under achieved in 2000 too.  So all these qualify the difference in those years.

 

Surely Brady helped some, but I was never with the Brady heads crowd,he may of been the last piece in the puzzle but not necessarily the savior.  

 

Overall i think things can balance out, the points i made to qualify 2000 can be balance with factors in 2008.  And yes it was a fluke to not make the playoffs at 11-5.  Even if one can not outpace his division 11-5 still should of been good enough to get a wild card.  We just could not beat a good team that year.

 

BB certainly helped with Pats success and yes football has three phases in the game, two of which the QB is sitting on the bench.  As the QB touches the ball for about 1/3 of the game he does have some impact, he just needs to make sure he is not part of the reason for a loss and take advantage and raise his game if need to be to help a team win in a given situation.  

 

Be nice to see BB coach the Pats for a significant person of time with another solid QB.  He did not have a great record in Cleveland but it was Cleveland, he did improve the teams record and it was a team that ended up winning a SB in 2000. 

[Yehoodi]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

I'll say something, nothing about this article struck me as sensational. I would bet that parts of it are exaggerated, taken out of context, etc., but nothing seems far-fetched or outrageous.

 

To be honest, we've all kind of marveled from afar that the Pats could keep this dynasty together for so long, with no drastic fallings out. Even now -- let's say everything in the article is 100% true -- they are 13-3, the #1 seed in the AFC, probably on their way to their 8th SB appearance. And that's an operation that has been splintering drastically for the last two-plus months.

 

If this article is even half true, and they've continued to be as great as they are in spite of all that difficulty, then I'll just say that I hope that Belichick hangs it up after this season or Brady's arm falls off, or both, because otherwise, they're simply unbeatable. I'm being dramatic, of course, but the point is that they continue to make it work despite what might be some drastic issues. 

 

Meanwhile, everyone in Indy is hyperventilating because Irsay might have suggested that Luck has to overcome some mental hurdles on his way back from injury. We make mountains out of molehills, while it seems New England has been turning mountains into molehills. 

 

I think one thing that has helped the Pats beyond the intrinsic value of Kraft, BB, TB and its players is timing.  BB was only 48 when he took over at HC of the Pats in 2000, we had a solid core of players (some of which cut their teeth in SB31 loss), added some more in 2001, the core had been maturing through he late 90s, so when TB came along we had a lot of the pieces to the puzzle.

 

Given the player safety rules, QBs are hit less and can play longer and given BB being only 48 there was a potential which was recognized for a QB/Coach tandem to go 15-20 years. 

 

There was a rollover from the first team which too some time and not the best drafting with our 2009 being our weakest version, but the drafting has gotten better and players have stuck and the team has matured to its present form. 

 

Surely BB and TB have helped but things were set up to give them the potential to be together for a long time, had a owner that basically stays out of things, and new players have come along to fill out the present team. 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

The end is near OH YE the end is near and they have no Plan B. Go Colts with a healthy Andrew for 10 years coming.

[dgambill]

51 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Yes time will tell as coaches & players movement and results will given a good picture of the extent of things mentioned in the article.

 

And i agree, nothing will come of this by getting into the details as it will just cause distractions that the team does not need in December.

 

My gut feeling is that Kraft would yield to BB on the Brady situation as he has done so in the past with other key player decisions.  Indeed, BB was allow to trade Bledsoe basically a year after we signed him to be our franchise QB, not to mention not to let him back on the field after he returned from injury.

 

Also, too BB maybe might yield to Kraft a bit, given how Brady has help both their resumes and that TB is still going strong over these last four years. 

 

I may be wrong but my sense was the team wanted to keep Jimmy G for 2 or more years and let TB go around 42-43, but that was not in the cards.   

I think everyone knew that couldn't be a possibility. Jimmy wasn't going to sit the bench for 2-3 more years. He was ready to play...and quite frankly deserved to play. I think Bill planned on Tom maybe playing through this year (4 years ago) but he has exceeded anybodies expectation. Now that it appears 2-3 more years of high caliber Tom play is probably the case it made moving on and riding out the Tom train pretty straight forward decision. I think the only reason he traded mid-season was to see how Tom was doing this year because Bill knew he had another SB caliber team. Plus he wanted to ship him out of the conference in case he blew up...which it appears he has a good likelihood of doing (I think he will be comparable to Tony Romo talent-wise). Bill has ammo now to draft the new kid on the block and they start over. I think the plan all along was to have Jimmy take over next year...just Tom is holding together better than anyone could imagine...so even a year at the franchise tag wouldn't make much sense because Tom is prepared to play several more years. I don't think Tom is going anywhere minimum 3 years...and Bill has made his decision to tether himself to the Tom Brady ship and for good reason. Nobody thought Tom would play into his 40s except Tom. Now that is all but a certainty the Jimmy succession plan couldn't work....and I think it had nothing to do with finances or Tom jealous...just plan simple Jimmy isn't going to sign a contract to sit 2-3 more years...plain and simple...Bill had to move on. Could they have traded Tom and kept Jimmy......sure....but that is a sure fire way to hurt everyone's legacy. If Tom was injured or looking washed up that's one thing (see Peyton)....the only reason the Colts survived the move on from Peyton was the injury and Luck in our lap and still many fans left. No way you can successfully move on from Tom if he is playing at an MVP level. Toms play cemented his staying and Jimmy going...and it has nothing to do with egos or Bill being forced to do something. I can't see it any other way.....just a sensational story for clicks....fake news if you ask me. lol

[DraftMaster]

What most Colts fans be like:

[Nesjan3]

Just seen a story on Sportcenter about this. Lol the Pats released a statement saying none of it is true and its all blown out of proportion. Sure sounds believable though, and why would these reports arise if there was not some truth to it.

[Coltsman1788]

I hope the Pats implode like a supernova. 

[Jules]

The rumor I been hearing is Bill B. could go to the Giants. Not saying this is going to happen, just saying it's one of the rumors.

 

And lets face it, Patriots rumors make the world go round.

[Jules]

11 hours ago, lance_m8 said:

BB deserves some respect he did right by JG may have saved his career and started something in SF

 

Agreed, glad they sent him to SF and not Cleveland.

 

 

On a side note, if the Pats roll through the postseason then everyone will say THEY HAD A CHIP ON THEIR SHOULDER DO TO DAT ARTICLE.

[B~Town]

Seems most of this stems from the rumors BB was shopping Brady not Jimmy to the 9ers I always wondered if there was any truth to that .  

[Jules]

[Jules]

I thought I heard they pushed the TB12 stuff on Gronk in the offseason. Maybe thats why Gronk eventually flipped out and tried to kill a Bills player? Gronk could not take anymore vegetable broth, yoga and avocado ice cream. Gronk plays football and eats animals to the bone, period.

 

 

 

 

Brady: Coach don't love me as much anymore, he loves Jimmy. I can see how he looks at Jimmy......

Bill B: God I love Jimmy Garoppolo, I see 5 more Super Bowl wins in the future with him.

 

 

 

 

[will426]

Sounds like a bunch of bull some haters of Brady put together lol.

[chad72]

18 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

No I agree, I would be shocked if both left but they might if they win it all. Going out on top is the best way to go. Peyton will always be remembered as a Champion because of that. I think after this season the Pats will finally start to decline and I have never said that. I just don't see them 3-peating and Tom will be even older. I do think they win it this season.

 

It is very hard to repeat, I have a gut feeling the Pats do not win it all, just not sure which would be the team that would shock them in a close one. Maybe it is the Chiefs in the divisional round, just takes 1 bad game for the Pats and the Chiefs, ironically, play better offense on the road than at home.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

It is very hard to repeat, I have a gut feeling the Pats do not win it all, just not sure which would be the team that would shock them in a close one. Maybe it is the Chiefs in the divisional round, just takes 1 bad game for the Pats and the Chiefs, ironically, play better offense on the road than at home.

Eventhough they own the Steelers, if anyone beats them it could be the Steelers if Brown is healthy. They are just due to beat the Pats and the 1st time they played it could've went either way.

[Flying Elvis]

 

[Narcosys]

More fuel

 

http://www.espn.co.uk/video/clip?id=21993638

[dgambill]

On 1/6/2018 at 12:02 AM, Jules said:

Remember that one pic of Peyton going back in and Brock trying to find his helmet and being all * lol. Seems just like that. Ha!

[dgambill]

On 1/6/2018 at 8:58 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Eventhough they own the Steelers, if anyone beats them it could be the Steelers if Brown is healthy. They are just due to beat the Pats and the 1st time they played it could've went either way.

That was a Heinz field where they had crowd noise and didn’t have microphones in their locker room.

[dgambill]

9 hours ago, Narcosys said:

More fuel

 

http://www.espn.co.uk/video/clip?id=21993638

Oh yeah...because Rex Ryan understands Bill and the Pats....if he even understood them half as much as he pretends to there he wouldn’t have been owned by them so much. This is the most ridiculous fake news story of the year...and we saw a ton in 2017.

 

ok so it’s 2018 but it will be the worst of this year. This just sounds more dumb the more everyone talks about it...do people even listen to what they say or do they just go around saying stuff off the top of their head. On top of it all why would I believe supposed insiders from inside the NE organization. The same organization that was able to keep deflate gate under wraps and from the equipment guys speaking out and spy gate still being denied by ex players and staff but people just came out on their free will to sell out Tom, Robert, and Bill....yeah right!

[Narcosys]

3 hours ago, dgambill said:

Oh yeah...because Rex Ryan understands Bill and the Pats....if he even understood them half as much as he pretends to there he wouldn’t have been owned by them so much. This is the most ridiculous fake news story of the year...and we saw a ton in 2017.

 

ok so it’s 2018 but it will be the worst of this year. This just sounds more dumb the more everyone talks about it...do people even listen to what they say or do they just go around saying stuff off the top of their head. On top of it all why would I believe supposed insiders from inside the NE organization. The same organization that was able to keep deflate gate under wraps and from the equipment guys speaking out and spy gate still being denied by ex players and staff but people just came out on their free will to sell out Tom, Robert, and Bill....yeah right!

I just said it was more fuel, but not to which side lol.

 

Clearly fired you up.

[Reality Check]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:49 PM, Jules said:

The rumor I been hearing is Bill B. could go to the Giants. Not saying this is going to happen, just saying it's one of the rumors.

 

And lets face it, Patriots rumors make the world go round.

Rumors.... lol.  Welcome the the intraweb!!

[dgambill]

7 hours ago, Narcosys said:

I just said it was more fuel, but not to which side lol.

 

Clearly fired you up.

No worries....I just thought it was comical that Rex commented..like anyone would believe anything he said. The whole thing just seems made up and dumb....and while I would love to see Bill coach another team to see how he would fair and I'm totally ready for the Pats to have their time at the bottom like the rest of us but this thing is a click bait desperate reach by a news outlet that is hemorrhaging money.

[GoPats]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:06 AM, lance_m8 said:

Think about this in less than one year the Patriots have taken 2 of our bum players and handed us better in return and we might steal their OC from them single handedly the Colts are winning this rivalry even off the field

 

Uh... 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 11:06 AM, lance_m8 said:

Think about this in less than one year the Patriots have taken 2 of our bum players and handed us better in return and we might steal their OC from them single handedly the Colts are winning this rivalry even off the field

While I agree I liked getting Brisset for Dorsett and dumping Allen for a 4th Round Pick, but on the field we are 0-5 in the Luck era vs the Pats. We had some nice wins vs them in the Peyton era like the 2006 Title Game, the 4th and 2 2009 game, etc. but have not beat them since that 2009 game. I do like Brisset, I think he is a great backup. I am a bit puzzled that the Pats got rid of Jimmy G actually which is a different topic.

[GoPats]

 

So I've given it a couple of days, waited for some additional reports to come out, etc-etc. I'm sure there's some level of truth to a lot of this, but other parts seem more difficult to believe... here's what I think:

 

1) At some point, the full access that Brady's trainer had to the team was rescinded and restricted, allegedly because some of his advice was conflicting with the team's medical and training staff. But we knew Brady's dedication to this mostly holistic, often weird lifestyle was there. Nothing really surprising here. Other players (like Gronk) have used Guerrero on their own, and will continue to do so, I'm sure. 

 

2) For those who aren't aware, Brady and Belichick have never really been "buds." It's very much a coach-player relationship. But they are far from BFFs and it's not like they had some wonderful, personal, father/son-like relationship that went cold. They've never been that close on a personal level, by all accounts I've ever seen or read. 

 

3) I seriously, seriously doubt that Bob Kraft "ordered" BB to trade Jimmy G. That simply doesn't fly, for anyone who is familiar with this team, the personal dynamics, and how they've always made it work. Kraft also flat-out denied this after the story came out. 

 

4) According to other sources, there were times when Brady and Garoppolo's relationship was icy. So I believe the notion that he was a bit ticked off to have Jimmy G. be selected with a 2nd round pick and groomed in-house as his eventual replacement. Given Brady's history at Michigan, and the way he became the starter in NE, he clearly had a pretty intense reaction to the team drafting his heir apparent. 

 

5) There was a story claiming that, at the time of the JG trade, the 49ers asked BB about Brady. 

 

Full article here.

 

“Belichick just said, ‘What did you just ask me?” Glazer reported. “(Lynch) said, ‘I’m asking if you’d trade us Tom Brady, (since) you said Garoppolo is off-limits. (Belichick) said, ‘Did you just ask me if I’d trade Tom Brady? … Did you just ask if I’d trade the greatest quarterback of all time. And John said, ‘So is that a no?'”

 

In conclusion...

 

There is probably some level of truth to a lot of what the article had in it. But I think a lot of items were either highly exaggerated or simply made up. 

 

I think, with Jimmy G, that the Patriots held out hope that something would change during the course of the season, and that they'd be able to sign him to a long-term deal as Brady's backup and then their future franchise QB. But Garoppolo understandably wants to play, and at 26 didn't feel like he could sit for 2-3 more seasons after this one. I do think the Patriots liked his play but maybe have concerns about his durability. We'll see what happens with that, and with him overall, but it was cool to see him do well in SF. 

 

And if this is really that bad? If it's the end? 

 

It was a pretty dang good run. I'll take it. 

 

 

 

[Roger]

51 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Uh... 

 

What...Rivalry?

[IndyScribe]

It's just wishful thinking. Belichick has confirmed the rumor to be nonsense and I highly doubt he leaves the Patriots.

[dodsworth]

Patricia gone, Garopollo gone, Brisset gone, McDaniels about to be

gone, Brady on his last leg. The dynasty is finally over after this year!

[dynasty13]

16 hours ago, dodsworth said:

Patricia gone, Garopollo gone, Brisset gone, McDaniels about to be

gone, Brady on his last leg. The dynasty is finally over after this year!

 

As far as the potential coaching moves, it does have a very similar feel to the 2004 season where we knew we'd be losing Weiss and Crennel and heading into the playoffs we felt that this was the 'last hurrah' for the three guys together.

 

I like the way that season ended... ;)

[Yehoodi]

On 1/5/2018 at 5:30 PM, dgambill said:

I think everyone knew that couldn't be a possibility. Jimmy wasn't going to sit the bench for 2-3 more years. He was ready to play...and quite frankly deserved to play. I think Bill planned on Tom maybe playing through this year (4 years ago) but he has exceeded anybodies expectation. Now that it appears 2-3 more years of high caliber Tom play is probably the case it made moving on and riding out the Tom train pretty straight forward decision. I think the only reason he traded mid-season was to see how Tom was doing this year because Bill knew he had another SB caliber team. Plus he wanted to ship him out of the conference in case he blew up...which it appears he has a good likelihood of doing (I think he will be comparable to Tony Romo talent-wise). Bill has ammo now to draft the new kid on the block and they start over. I think the plan all along was to have Jimmy take over next year...just Tom is holding together better than anyone could imagine...so even a year at the franchise tag wouldn't make much sense because Tom is prepared to play several more years. I don't think Tom is going anywhere minimum 3 years...and Bill has made his decision to tether himself to the Tom Brady ship and for good reason. Nobody thought Tom would play into his 40s except Tom. Now that is all but a certainty the Jimmy succession plan couldn't work....and I think it had nothing to do with finances or Tom jealous...just plan simple Jimmy isn't going to sign a contract to sit 2-3 more years...plain and simple...Bill had to move on. Could they have traded Tom and kept Jimmy......sure....but that is a sure fire way to hurt everyone's legacy. If Tom was injured or looking washed up that's one thing (see Peyton)....the only reason the Colts survived the move on from Peyton was the injury and Luck in our lap and still many fans left. No way you can successfully move on from Tom if he is playing at an MVP level. Toms play cemented his staying and Jimmy going...and it has nothing to do with egos or Bill being forced to do something. I can't see it any other way.....just a sensational story for clicks....fake news if you ask me. lol

 

Yes a QB transition has many layers . . . 

 

The Pats have always valued the QB backup and since the later 2000s have use high draft stock to have a QB in waiting.  In 2013 TB had a rough start, due both to WR talent and him, with the former being more of the factor imo.  However, that does not change the fact that the Pats might of been more mindful that the next 4 yr backup guy might be the next one. 

 

In come Jimmy G. and looks like, as of week 4 of 2014 (KC blowout), that Jimmy G. will fit right in 4 years from then to take over for TB.  TB has played well causing a log jam at QB.   

 

There is really no true right answer when one tries to compare Jimmy G, moving forward against TB for a few years combined with the next heir, and which one would give the better combined results over the next 15 years.  Yes with the Colts that argument was a tad easier as Luck coming out of college was touted as one of the best in a while, which would be different has the Colts drafted a run of a mill 2nd rounder. 

 

My strongest guess would be that BB is not going anywhere, takes too much time to fire up a team to your way of thinking and install the structure one wishes.  

 

As for TB, he only has 2 more years.  The Pats could ride that out and not resign him. They could extend him for four years to match the next heir and then play it by ear and maybe trade Brady in years 3 & 4, or somewhere in between.

 

As for the article, there may be some truth to it, but for me most of it was a typically media trying to get attention.