Alarming stat about our wrs

[CurBeatElite]

49 minutes ago, Archer said:

Y'know who else only had 18 career receptions?  Darren Waller after his first 4 years in the league.  His 5th and 6th years he had 1,100+ yard seasons.  If only talent evaluation was as simple as adding up career receptions.  I get it - we aren't returning multiple proven producers.  But using that as a proxy for the quality of the receiving corps is lazy.  We'll probably add a WR on Day 2 (who will have 0 career NFL receptions), and I bet our WR corps will be pretty decent...

 

We showed last year that our D is pretty good. With the additions of Yannick, McLeod, and Gilmore we should be very good on D.  And since Paye and Dayo actually showed a lot of on field promise and progress last year, it's reasonable to think they will also help make this D better.

 

Our WRs after Pittman have not shown a lot of on field promise.  Campbell has done the most, looking electric in the short time he's had to show what he brings to the table... but he's always hurt (I am rooting for the guy and think he's got a lot to offer, my point is Ballard has seen for 3 years that he can't stay healthy.. so I think it's pretty silly to be banking on him to be reliable for 17 games and a playoff run).  Dulin has had his moments, but they have been pretty few and it seemed to me that he almost came in and surprised teams for a couple games and once there was tape on him he wasn't really a factor.  Patmon was a healthy scratch as a rookie and did nothing to prove he's going to be a reliable WR at the NFL level in year 2 (unless you consider 1 of his 2catches, a nice TD grab, to be indicative that he's going to turn into a star.. but that seems pretty silly).  Strachan had a lot of hype about him bc of his size, but there's a reason he was a 6th round pick and he didn't do anything in regular season to suggest he is gonna be consistently successful in this league. 

 

Pittman is our #1.  He wouldn't be the #1 on a lot of teams, and there are several teams where he likely wouldn't be the #2.  TY was hurt last year and has been on a decline for several years now. We easily had a top 10 (probably more like top 5 or top 3) worst WR groups in the league.  People can blame that on Carson til the cows come home, but the lack of productivity from our WRs (who after Pittman and Campbell are all late round projects or udfas) is alarming. Perhaps more alarming is that these guys who people expect to be studs weren't even seeing the field, suggesting Reich/Ballard didn't think they were good enough to play (as a rookie, Patmon was seeing guys from the practice squad brought up and inserted into the lineup before him regularly).  If these guys aren't good enough to be on the field on a top 5 worst WR team in the league, that's alarming... my guess is they wouldn't make many other rosters, or I'd they did they'd be 5th or 6th and not see the field elsewhere either.

 

I love your optimistic attitude and your hope that some of these guys turn into Waller.  The issue is, Waller is an anomaly in the NFL (not close to the normal, it's very rare for anyone to be unproductive for 3 years and breakout in their 4th year, this is an exception to the rule).  I'm just not sure that it's wise to expect every player on our team at the wr/te positions (outside of Pittman) to all of the sudden be all stars after doing nothing to show they're consistently productive in the NFL. 

 

I never said that Ballard wouldn't get someone for Ryan.  In fact, I said I sure hope he does get someone (multiple people at wr & te) for Ryan.  The reason is because as our roster stands right now, we stink at the wr and te position and it would be an anomaly across the long history of the NFL for 6+ guys who have done nothing to show they are consistently productive players in the NFL to all the sudden become consistently productive (the 6 I'm talking about are Campbell, Dulin, Strachan, Patmon, MAC and Granson.. if you want to add Keke, D Harris, and others feel free).  

 

Matt Ryan is a future HOF QB.  It's late in his career.  He likely doesn't have much gas in the tank (1-3 years is my guess) and obviously isn't a long term solution for us. He was brought in to give us a chance to win now.  I sure hope Ballard gets him more help at WR and TE (and I never said he wouldn't), because it will be hard for Ryan (or any QB in the NFL) to thrive with what we have now which is a top 5 worst TE/WR group in the NFL.

[jbaron04]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:23 PM, Shadow_Creek said:

The fact that Ballard never gave Ty a helping hand pretty much his whole time here in Indy aside from Reggie just goes to show his lackluster ability to address certain areas 

To be honest it’s not all on Ballard , we lost franchise qb , franchise LT etc… and we had to retool the whole team can’t get every need in one season 

[Shadow_Creek]

25 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

To be honest it’s not all on Ballard , we lost franchise qb , franchise LT etc… and we had to retool the whole team can’t get every need in one season 

look to a certain degree i agree with you but think about it this way.. for every bad pick Ballard had which he let go that could have been a good wr to help bolster this roster instead he choose the latter 

[NewColtsFan]

9 hours ago, Indeee said:

I think in any aspect of life the cream rises to the top. In the case of MO, by now if he would have shown any inkling of "rising cream" or willingness to excel on his own, his production would have followed, and the coaches would have implemented him more into the gameplan over these past five years. That is NOT speculation, that is common sense in awareness of witnessing firsthand. As far as the last three guys, at this point, they are jags, and you know it. You can sit over there and play your other side of the optimistic coin all you want but if any of those guys were worth their weight they would have shined when opportunities arose. Use Darrel Mooney in Chicago as an example. Bears in a very similar spot to us in wideout talent and QB talent and when Robinson fell off/got injured Mooney seized the opportunity and now is considered a rising star. Where has that occurred at any time with Duhlin, Patmon, or Strachan? It hasn't. You can separate the jags from the stars early on. The stars want the ball always. They get upset when not utilized enough. They craft their game in practice and out. They do anything to garner QB's attention confidence, coaches' attention and confidence too. The jags just go with the flow and never go beyond the opportunity given, which never amounts to much opportunity. Again, this isn't speculation this is how life works. You are being around 65 years as you say, you for one should know this. Just because Patmon catches a key touchdown in one spot makes him no less of a jag. take tyree as example. One catch in a super bowl led to immortalization but as a player? JAG 

 

Appreciate that you took the time to do such a long detailed response.      I'll try to do the same.

 

As free agency approached,  Spotrac.com put out projections on how much the top FA candidates would be offered on the open market.    And for eac player,  the do comparisons.    What do players of the same position, with roughly the same age and experience and similar stats,  what do they make?     And the projection for Cox, as 3 years and $19 Mill.   So, while yoiu don'tr see much of a player,  the people who do this for a living see far more.   They had no dog in this fight.   They're simply crunching numbers.    And guys of Cox's experience and stats were making roughly 3/19.     It's really just that simple.    If we didn['t offer it,  odds are high, someone else would've, if not more.      And did you know,  that MAC has the following average per reception for his 4 years?    19, 11.6, 12.7 and 13.3      His career average per catch is 13.4    Those are not common ordinary numbers.    That's a 4 year track record of proven better than average receiving from the TE spot.

Your view that Cox and Doyle are a dime a dozen guy that are easily replaceable I believe is easily provably false.  And for what it's worth,  MAC has good grades both receiving and blocking.   At 6'5" and 267 he can do both, and not every tight end can make that claim.    He's not just another guy.    He's not a "cashier" that doesn't make the team better.   

 

As for the WR's....    Mooney was a 5th round draft pick from a major college.    Dulin was an undrafted free agent from nowheresville state Tech A&M.   He's incredibly raw.   He's learning the NFL game, while he's in the NFL.    But here's what he has going for him.   6'1", 215, 4.4 speed.    You can't find that combination easily.   He's learning.   And he's about to get the biggest opportunity in his career.    We're about to find how good he can be.   

 

Patmon came from a pass happy program at Wash State.   But, due to the system he played in,  his ability to read NFL defenses was in doubt.   But here's the interesting factoid on him.   The Colts have mostly kept him on the active roster for two years.   So even though he wasn't played,  we didn't want to risk exposing him to the waiver wire and losing him.  He's 6'4" and 220+ and runs 4.5.    So, he took up a valuable spot on the team even though he couldn't produce.    That's your "tell".    That tells you the team think he's a diamond in the rough, that simply needs polishing.    Like Dulin,  Patmon is about to get his shot this year.

 

Strachan is another guy who came from a low level of playing in college.   Buit he's where most Colts fans have either forgotten or never learned.    He dominated his two years in college.     That was 18 and 19.    But his School's 2020 season was wiped out by Covid.    So, he didn't play at all that year.   Zero.    Then showed up at the West Virginia Pro Day and was the biggest star.   He didn't do anything last year but was never expected to.    His jump from college to the NFL is the biggest of any player on the current rostere.    But he's 6'5" and 225 and runs 4.5      How many of those guys are in the NFL?     Not many.    

 

That the team keeps guys like Strachan and Patmon and Dulin and Campbell around even though they haven't produced much is your sign that the whole team sees a LOT of potential in these guys.    Now that's no guarantee that they'll live up to the promise.   But as a fan,  I look for those clues,  those signals.    If this front office and this coaching staff are sticking their necks out and publicly says good things about these guys who haven't produced much,  I find that to be a very encouraging sign. 

 

As for your view of Ballard,  if I misread your comments to mean your down on Ballard and you're saying yoiu're not,  then my bad.    So sorry.     But since Ballard's strength is finding talent,  and you say you're not down on Ballard,  then I don't understand why you show little faith in Ballard, and his scouts and this coaching staff?    This is how they make a living.  If you blow too many of these decisions then you can lose your job.    It's not like me and you who only play expert scout here on the internet. 

 

Apologies that this went so long.   You took the time to write a long post to me.   I wanted to respond to offer my perspective on this.      A week to go before the draft!      As I do every year,  really, really looking forward to it!  

 

[John Waylon]

Talk to me after the draft. 
 

[ProblChld32]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:52 PM, Smonroe said:

Or a vet like TY, on a performance laden deal.  Besides the play where Carson overthrew him, there were many others where he was open. But Carson would force it to a triple covered MPJ.  
 

If TY comes back and gets a little over 300 yards, the Colts would be the only team in the NFL with 3 10k yard receivers.  I think history matters to Irsay.  It’s up to TY to agree to a Colts friendly contract. 

I agree, I’m just wondering why they haven’t brought him back yet ? I thought i heard there was mutual interest between both parties. 

[NewColtsFan]

47 minutes ago, ProblChld32 said:

I agree, I’m just wondering why they haven’t brought him back yet ? I thought i heard there was mutual interest between both parties. 

 

I think we've likely offered a pay cut far greater than TYH was expecting.    I think he's looking at 50 cents on last year's dollar.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Regarding TY Hilton, he made 10 Mill last year. If he would take a huge pay cut, lets say 6 Mill for 1 year? I would consider it. He is still above average (of course not very good anymore like he was in the past or great for a couple of years) and with Matt Ryan at QB he may have 5 or 6 good games. I can see him if healthy in a playoff game having a good game based on smarts.

[GoColts8818]

3 hours ago, Shadow_Creek said:

look to a certain degree i agree with you but think about it this way.. for every bad pick Ballard had which he let go that could have been a good wr to help bolster this roster instead he choose the latter 

Show me a GM that doesn’t have misses?  It happens.  Also in Ballard’s first three years here he drafted two WRs in the second round.  So it’s not like he ignored it.  One has worked out.  The other to this point has not.  

[Moosejawcolt]

19 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Once again….   Nothing but projection.  
 

You think you’re right.   You don’t think there’s another side of the story.   You think MAC is a proven failure.   You think none of the foursome of Campbell, Dulin, Patmon and Strachan will step up.   You’re not even willing to let them prove themselves.   The jury is in for you. 
 

All to support you’re narrative that Ballard is over-rated.  Projection, projection, projection. 
 

Good luck with that. 

Remember Ballard had the same philosophy last year when it came to the Dline. Let the veteran walk and the young draft picks will step up. It was a horrendous decision that cost the Colts games and the play offs. If he chooses the same route and it fails, he needs to be held accountable. They need a proven TE and WR.

[Dingus McGirt]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:42 PM, Indeee said:

Yea, Ryan needs the route runners to run slower routes as evidence with the Paris/Ryan Instagram video. Ryan's fastball is now a bowling ball.... 

we can always count on you 

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:42 PM, Indeee said:

Yea, Ryan needs the route runners to run slower routes as evidence with the Paris/Ryan Instagram video. Ryan's fastball is now a bowling ball.... 

[NewColtsFan]

26 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Remember Ballard had the same philosophy last year when it came to the Dline. Let the veteran walk and the young draft picks will step up. It was a horrendous decision that cost the Colts games and the play offs. If he chooses the same route and it fails, he needs to be held accountable. They need a proven TE and WR.

Sorry, but that’s NIT an apples to apples comparison.   We let quality veterans go last year.   

This year, we are only debating Hilton.  And that would not appear to be the equal of Houston or Autry.   We used our top two picks last year on pass rush.   Thus year we’re giving guys who have either been hurt (Campbell) or inexperienced (Duhlin, Patmon and Strachan) their first real opportunity.   So the comparison doesn’t hold up well.  And of Paye and Dayo improve then the layoff will be worth it. 
 

And what the Heck does “Hold him accountable” actually mean?   There is one human being on this earth who holds Ballard accountable.  One.  Irsay is the boss.  So what kind of accountability are you talking about?  

[Indeee]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Appreciate that you took the time to do such a long detailed response.      I'll try to do the same.

 

As free agency approached,  Spotrac.com put out projections on how much the top FA candidates would be offered on the open market.    And for eac player,  the do comparisons.    What do players of the same position, with roughly the same age and experience and similar stats,  what do they make?     And the projection for Cox, as 3 years and $19 Mill.   So, while yoiu don'tr see much of a player,  the people who do this for a living see far more.   They had no dog in this fight.   They're simply crunching numbers.    And guys of Cox's experience and stats were making roughly 3/19.     It's really just that simple.    If we didn['t offer it,  odds are high, someone else would've, if not more.      And did you know,  that MAC has the following average per reception for his 4 years?    19, 11.6, 12.7 and 13.3      His career average per catch is 13.4    Those are not common ordinary numbers.    That's a 4 year track record of proven better than average receiving from the TE spot.

Your view that Cox and Doyle are a dime a dozen guy that are easily replaceable I believe is easily provably false.  And for what it's worth,  MAC has good grades both receiving and blocking.   At 6'5" and 267 he can do both, and not every tight end can make that claim.    He's not just another guy.    He's not a "cashier" that doesn't make the team better.   

 

As for the WR's....    Mooney was a 5th round draft pick from a major college.    Dulin was an undrafted free agent from nowheresville state Tech A&M.   He's incredibly raw.   He's learning the NFL game, while he's in the NFL.    But here's what he has going for him.   6'1", 215, 4.4 speed.    You can't find that combination easily.   He's learning.   And he's about to get the biggest opportunity in his career.    We're about to find how good he can be.   

 

Patmon came from a pass happy program at Wash State.   But, due to the system he played in,  his ability to read NFL defenses was in doubt.   But here's the interesting factoid on him.   The Colts have mostly kept him on the active roster for two years.   So even though he wasn't played,  we didn't want to risk exposing him to the waiver wire and losing him.  He's 6'4" and 220+ and runs 4.5.    So, he took up a valuable spot on the team even though he couldn't produce.    That's your "tell".    That tells you the team think he's a diamond in the rough, that simply needs polishing.    Like Dulin,  Patmon is about to get his shot this year.

 

Strachan is another guy who came from a low level of playing in college.   Buit he's where most Colts fans have either forgotten or never learned.    He dominated his two years in college.     That was 18 and 19.    But his School's 2020 season was wiped out by Covid.    So, he didn't play at all that year.   Zero.    Then showed up at the West Virginia Pro Day and was the biggest star.   He didn't do anything last year but was never expected to.    His jump from college to the NFL is the biggest of any player on the current rostere.    But he's 6'5" and 225 and runs 4.5      How many of those guys are in the NFL?     Not many.    

 

That the team keeps guys like Strachan and Patmon and Dulin and Campbell around even though they haven't produced much is your sign that the whole team sees a LOT of potential in these guys.    Now that's no guarantee that they'll live up to the promise.   But as a fan,  I look for those clues,  those signals.    If this front office and this coaching staff are sticking their necks out and publicly says good things about these guys who haven't produced much,  I find that to be a very encouraging sign. 

 

As for your view of Ballard,  if I misread your comments to mean your down on Ballard and you're saying yoiu're not,  then my bad.    So sorry.     But since Ballard's strength is finding talent,  and you say you're not down on Ballard,  then I don't understand why you show little faith in Ballard, and his scouts and this coaching staff?    This is how they make a living.  If you blow too many of these decisions then you can lose your job.    It's not like me and you who only play expert scout here on the internet. 

 

Apologies that this went so long.   You took the time to write a long post to me.   I wanted to respond to offer my perspective on this.      A week to go before the draft!      As I do every year,  really, really looking forward to it!  

 

All of this means absolutely nothing. I didn't just say that to make light of all that info and the time you took to write it. What I mean is this:

 

If spotrac views his monetary value as such, it doesn't mean we have to pay it. I bolded it so there is no mistaking what I meant. As you said, someone else would have paid it or maybe more and my response would be okay, let them. Let MAC go be someone else's underwhelming 18 mil problem. 

 

Without going into every little counterpoint on everything you wrote, football is really simple. Really talented players command the ball. Often and always. 

 

Look at the niners. Their offense is kind of like ours. Strong running game, 1 wideout that excels over the others, and a dominant TE. In comparison to ours, we have strong running game, 1 wideout that excels over the rest that we currently have, and that is where it stops. MAC has been nowhere near what Kittle has been, nor has MAC ever been involved in the gameplan like Kittle has been and there is a reason for that. MAC is not good. It doesn't matter if his per average catch is 13 yards if he is only catching one ball a game, maybe 2. So, his day might look like 2 or 3 for 26. That is not good. Sure, he might make a catch in a key moment to help the team win on a particular day, maybe that day would be 3 for 28 and a TD, but that is not consistent enough to matter. In truth that sucks. All while Kittle is 8 for 86 and a score. Kittle has 3 yard less average, but his production is higher. You, see? It's not about average yards per catch, it's about utilization and production. 

 

This is going to sound off but when it comes to offensive players, fantasy can tell you a lot from what you have and where you need to go.

 

In every fantasy league across the world, from a Colts players perspective, the only player drafted in the top 50 is Taylor. Now some Colts homers might draft Pittman earlier than the 7th-11th rounds but normally Pittman will be drafted in the top 80 and outside of those two no other Colts players are taken in an average 10-12 team league. That's 160 players selected in an average 16 spot 10 team league. 

 

Hines might be selected in rounds 13-16

 

Do you know why that is? Because they do not produce. Hence why I bolded production in my initial response to you.

 

You can throw out all the numbers and accolades you want but real life doesn't lie. Coaches believing in their players is one thing but having them actually perform is another and speaking of MAC, he just has not performed consistently enough for 5 years now and on a team who had an aging Hilton and a host of pass catching failures outside of Ebron for one year, he has had ample opportunity to fill a much-needed void of consistency and has not. I'm sorry but I don't see it happening for this guy and that is why this team should have let him walk and if he would've gone somewhere else and became a stud then we all would have known it was the coaches who didn't utilize him properly or he would go somewhere else and fall flat as he did here. Either way, he is not getting it here and IMO we wasted 18 million on a JAG. Until he proves me wrong, I won't believe otherwise regardless of what some coach says, or some site dedicated to tracking players salary brackets. 

[jbaron04]

5 hours ago, Shadow_Creek said:

look to a certain degree i agree with you but think about it this way.. for every bad pick Ballard had which he let go that could have been a good wr to help bolster this roster instead he choose the latter 

31 other teams could be saying the same thing .

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Indeee said:

All of this means absolutely nothing. I didn't just say that to make light of all that info and the time you took to write it. What I mean is this:

 

If spotrac views his monetary value as such, it doesn't mean we have to pay it. I bolded it so there is no mistaking what I meant. As you said, someone else would have paid it or maybe more and my response would be okay, let them. Let MAC go be someone else's underwhelming 18 mil problem. 

 

Without going into every little counterpoint on everything you wrote, football is really simple. Really talented players command the ball. Often and always. 

 

Look at the niners. Their offense is kind of like ours. Strong running game, 1 wideout that excels over the others, and a dominant TE. In comparison to ours, we have strong running game, 1 wideout that excels over the rest that we currently have, and that is where it stops. MAC has been nowhere near what Kittle has been, nor has MAC ever been involved in the gameplan like Kittle has been and there is a reason for that. MAC is not good. It doesn't matter if his per average catch is 13 yards if he is only catching one ball a game, maybe 2. So, his day might look like 2 or 3 for 26. That is not good. Sure, he might make a catch in a key moment to help the team win on a particular day, maybe that day would be 3 for 28 and a TD, but that is not consistent enough to matter. In truth that sucks. All while Kittle is 8 for 86 and a score. Kittle has 3 yard less average, but his production is higher. You, see? It's not about average yards per catch, it's about utilization and production. 

 

This is going to sound off but when it comes to offensive players, fantasy can tell you a lot from what you have and where you need to go.

 

In every fantasy league across the world, from a Colts players perspective, the only player drafted in the top 50 is Taylor. Now some Colts homers might draft Pittman earlier than the 7th-11th rounds but normally Pittman will be drafted in the top 80 and outside of those two no other Colts players are taken in an average 10-12 team league. That's 160 players selected in an average 16 spot 10 team league. 

 

Hines might be selected in rounds 13-16

 

Do you know why that is? Because they do not produce. Hence why I bolded production in my initial response to you.

 

You can throw out all the numbers and accolades you want but real life doesn't lie. Coaches believing in their players is one thing but having them actually perform is another and speaking of MAC, he just has not performed consistently enough for 5 years now and on a team who had an aging Hilton and a host of pass catching failures outside of Ebron for one year, he has had ample opportunity to fill a much-needed void of consistency and has not. I'm sorry but I don't see it happening for this guy and that is why this team should have let him walk and if he would've gone somewhere else and became a stud then we all would have known it was the coaches who didn't utilize him properly or he would go somewhere else and fall flat as he did here. Either way, he is not getting it here and IMO we wasted 18 million on a JAG. Until he proves me wrong, I won't believe otherwise regardless of what some coach says, or some site dedicated to tracking players salary brackets. 

You view guys like MAC and our other receivers as what they are today.  The coaches and front office view them as ascending.   They believe our young players will be better with more opportunity.  They need to play.  
 

And some of the reason for less performance last year and in 2019 is the play of the quarterback.   Better play there should equal better play everywhere.  
 

Young players get better.   More opportunity often means better performance.  MAC has never had starter snaps.   As you know, he’s a former basketball player, and he’s learned how to play football at the NFL level, not college.   If you believe in your young players then you have to give them the chance to perform.  
 

Put another way, if we had let MAC leave and he blows up for another team, you and others would scream bloody murder for not keeping him.   If we cut some of our young WRs and they play well for another team, fans here will be outraged.   You’ve got to give these kids a chance.   And you’ve got to have faith in the front office that invested so much time in getting these kids up to speed.  The front office and coaches believe in them, and since I believe in the organization, then I believe in the players.  Even if they haven’t proven anything — yet. 

 

Now is their time.   We’re all going to see for ourselves.   I’m looking forward to seeing what these kids can do.    I hope we’ll all be pleasantly surprised. 

[EastStreet]

Trying hard not to call out multiple folks. Buttttttt....

 

First of all. Understand the O we've been playing. Or not playing.

 

We HAVE NOT been playing air raid. We've been playing possession ball. 

 

Call it QB deficient or Reich conservative, but we've been short an possession. 

 

Simple as that. 

[Indeee]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You view guys like MAC and our other receivers as what they are today.  The coaches and front office view them as ascending.   They believe our young players will be better with more opportunity.  They need to play.  
 

And some of the reason for less performance last year and in 2019 is the play of the quarterback.   Better play there should equal better play everywhere.  
 

Young players get better.   More opportunity often means better performance.  MAC has never had starter snaps.   As you know, he’s a former basketball player, and he’s learned how to play football at the NFL level, not college.   If you believe in your young players then you have to give them the chance to perform.  
 

Put another way, if we had let MAC leave and he blows up for another team, you and others would scream bloody murder for not keeping him.   If we cut some of our young WRs and they play well for another team, fans here will be outraged.   You’ve got to give these kids a chance.   And you’ve got to have faith in the front office that invested so much time in getting these kids up to speed.  The front office and coaches believe in them, and since I believe in the organization, then I believe in the players.  Even if they haven’t proven anything — yet. 

 

Now is their time.   We’re all going to see for ourselves.   I’m looking forward to seeing what these kids can do.    I hope we’ll all be pleasantly surprised. 

For the sake of this team I hope you and the ones who believe in these guys are correct. Trust me, I would love to be wrong on this and I might be in regards to Duhlin, Patmon, and Strahan. I'm over Campbell, he is snakebit and Cox I just don't see it. As I stated, this guy has had ample time to earn those starter snaps and for whatever reason he just has not. 

 

For me it's the parallel as when I was screaming, that I wanted to see more of Kelly on the field and I would take backlash from people on here and the common reason was that he wasn't showing enough in practice for the coaches to trust him, i.e. he wasn't that good. Well, then if that holds true regarding Kelly then it must hold true for MAC. In an offense in dire need for a franchise QB Kelly never stepped up and likewise in an offense with a dire need for playmakers to step up and become truly relevant, none of the mentioned has done that either and MAC has had more time than any of them to do so. That is my gripe and sometimes it is with the front office as I don't know what they are seeing that the rest of the world does not. That is what concerns me. 

 

-Peace

[Indeee]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Trying hard not to call out multiple folks. Buttttttt....

 

First of all. Understand the O we've been playing. Or not playing.

 

We HAVE NOT been playing air raid. We've been playing possession ball. 

 

Call it QB deficient or Reich conservative, but we've been short an possession. 

 

Simple as that. 

This team doesn't need to play air raid for any of what the complaints represent. The front office, Ballard, has said extensively over this last season that the passing game needs to really improve. Most on here would take that to mean better QB play and that's part of it but not all of it. Media experts have done film study showing what we fans have seen all along. Our wideouts and TE's cannot gain separation and the route trees at certain times are off. In fact, I would argue we haven't played enough short possession ball from a schematic point as most routes were too long to develop coupled with players who did not excel in those types of routes. There is a problem in all three phases here. QB, Pass Catchers, and Play designers. It needs to be fixed right away because these teams are going to really start stacking the box at some point and forcing those developing pass catchers to develop in a hurry. They better be up for that challenge or it's going to be a long season.

[throwing BBZ]

7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You view guys like MAC and our other receivers as what they are today.  The coaches and front office view them as ascending.   They believe our young players will be better with more opportunity.  They need to play.  
 

And some of the reason for less performance last year and in 2019 is the play of the quarterback.   Better play there should equal better play everywhere.  
 

Young players get better.   More opportunity often means better performance.  MAC has never had starter snaps.   As you know, he’s a former basketball player, and he’s learned how to play football at the NFL level, not college.   If you believe in your young players then you have to give them the chance to perform.  
 

Put another way, if we had let MAC leave and he blows up for another team, you and others would scream bloody murder for not keeping him.   If we cut some of our young WRs and they play well for another team, fans here will be outraged.   You’ve got to give these kids a chance.   And you’ve got to have faith in the front office that invested so much time in getting these kids up to speed.  The front office and coaches believe in them, and since I believe in the organization, then I believe in the players.  Even if they haven’t proven anything — yet. 

 

Now is their time.   We’re all going to see for ourselves.   I’m looking forward to seeing what these kids can do.    I hope we’ll all be pleasantly surprised. 

 

  Command the ball! LMAO
  MO got decent pay for todays MARKET, as a blocking TE. 
   With a good QB, in this offense this year, if he can catch 30 balls for 275 yards and 3 td's, he will earn every penny. We sure have some real doozers posting here. Ryan will be spreading the ball around, picking D's apart, USING our young players better and better as the season goes on.
  Let them Whine and Doubt and Complain ..... in APRIL.  So VERY SAD. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 hours ago, Indeee said:

All of this means absolutely nothing. I didn't just say that to make light of all that info and the time you took to write it. What I mean is this:

 

If spotrac views his monetary value as such, it doesn't mean we have to pay it. I bolded it so there is no mistaking what I meant. As you said, someone else would have paid it or maybe more and my response would be okay, let them. Let MAC go be someone else's underwhelming 18 mil problem. 

 

Without going into every little counterpoint on everything you wrote, football is really simple. Really talented players command the ball. Often and always. 

 

Look at the niners. Their offense is kind of like ours. Strong running game, 1 wideout that excels over the others, and a dominant TE. In comparison to ours, we have strong running game, 1 wideout that excels over the rest that we currently have, and that is where it stops. MAC has been nowhere near what Kittle has been, nor has MAC ever been involved in the gameplan like Kittle has been and there is a reason for that. MAC is not good. It doesn't matter if his per average catch is 13 yards if he is only catching one ball a game, maybe 2. So, his day might look like 2 or 3 for 26. That is not good. Sure, he might make a catch in a key moment to help the team win on a particular day, maybe that day would be 3 for 28 and a TD, but that is not consistent enough to matter. In truth that sucks. All while Kittle is 8 for 86 and a score. Kittle has 3 yard less average, but his production is higher. You, see? It's not about average yards per catch, it's about utilization and production. 

 

This is going to sound off but when it comes to offensive players, fantasy can tell you a lot from what you have and where you need to go.

 

In every fantasy league across the world, from a Colts players perspective, the only player drafted in the top 50 is Taylor. Now some Colts homers might draft Pittman earlier than the 7th-11th rounds but normally Pittman will be drafted in the top 80 and outside of those two no other Colts players are taken in an average 10-12 team league. That's 160 players selected in an average 16 spot 10 team league. 

 

Hines might be selected in rounds 13-16

 

Do you know why that is? Because they do not produce. Hence why I bolded production in my initial response to you.

 

You can throw out all the numbers and accolades you want but real life doesn't lie. Coaches believing in their players is one thing but having them actually perform is another and speaking of MAC, he just has not performed consistently enough for 5 years now and on a team who had an aging Hilton and a host of pass catching failures outside of Ebron for one year, he has had ample opportunity to fill a much-needed void of consistency and has not. I'm sorry but I don't see it happening for this guy and that is why this team should have let him walk and if he would've gone somewhere else and became a stud then we all would have known it was the coaches who didn't utilize him properly or he would go somewhere else and fall flat as he did here. Either way, he is not getting it here and IMO we wasted 18 million on a JAG. Until he proves me wrong, I won't believe otherwise regardless of what some coach says, or some site dedicated to tracking players salary brackets. 

Really 3 years for 18 Mill isn't much and our TE room is thin with Doyle retiring. We are only paying him 6 Mill a year.

[Yoshinator]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Really 3 years for 18 Mill isn't much and our TE room is thin with Doyle retiring. We are only paying him 6 Mill a year.

It's a slight overpay IMO, but we had no choice at that point as Engram didn't sign with us without Matt Ryan, and we needed to secure some form of a TE at that point when we hadn't fixed our QB situation. I'm not upset at all with this deal. Mo has upside and may even be our no1 TE this year.

[Mitch Connors]

We can debate all we want if these WR's are good enough to be respectable but I dont see anyone here suggesting this team has a 1,200 yard WR, an 800 yard WR, and a 600 yard TE on it. The pass catching skill players are not good enough by NFL standards (stats), by talent standards (draft profiles), by reliability standards (snaps) and/or what it takes to win in the NFL today. Giving something more time to happen is not a guarantee that it will and NFL history tells you that way more often than not, what you're seeing today is what you can expect tomorrow. For every Darren Waller and Wes Welker there are I can give you 20 guys that never improved. 

 

Its hilarious how we hear things like "last time I checked you're not an NFL GM" when we challenge a decision by Ballard but we're sure fine acting like a 12 year NFL QB knows nothing about NFL WR talent, or the beat writers who study this team and the NFL for a living are wrong when they say WR's aren't good enough or every draft expert saying the WR's aren't good enough knows nothing. 

[Indeee]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Really 3 years for 18 Mill isn't much and our TE room is thin with Doyle retiring. We are only paying him 6 Mill a year.

Again, I don't know why this is so hard to understand what I'm conveying. It's not about the money and how little or how much it is. It's about the player. If Cox does not carve out a bigger role than a part time pass catcher, mostly blocker then he should have been let walk and we could've found another TE to have the same role for less. Most on here were wanting the Colts to add another TE via FA and now hoping they add another TE in the draft and every player mentioned in the draft is predominantly a pass catcher. Why is that if Cox is so good? Why is that if everyone is convinced that Cox this year, absent of Doyle, will finally step up and become a consistent playmaker? The answer is obvious, is it not?

 

You just don't throw money at a player like Cox with a higher price value as Smith-Schuster commanded just because our TE room is thin. You just don't. Yet this team has done just that now twice with virtually the same player from a production standpoint. Once with Doyle and now with Cox. I am befuddled and quite honestly, I'm always surprised more on here are not bewildered as well when the Colts do this.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Indeee said:

Again, I don't know why this is so hard to understand what I'm conveying. It's not about the money and how little or how much it is. It's about the player. If Cox does not carve out a bigger role than a part time pass catcher, mostly blocker then he should have been let walk and we could've found another TE to have the same role for less. Most on here were wanting the Colts to add another TE via FA and now hoping they add another TE in the draft and every player mentioned in the draft is predominantly a pass catcher. Why is that if Cox is so good? Why is that if everyone is convinced that Cox this year, absent of Doyle, will finally step up and become a consistent playmaker? The answer is obvious, is it not?

 

You just don't throw money at a player like Cox with a higher price value as Smith-Schuster commanded just because our TE room is thin. You just don't. Yet this team has done just that now twice with virtually the same player from a production standpoint. Once with Doyle and now with Cox. I am befuddled and quite honestly, I'm always surprised more on here are not bewildered as well when the Colts do this.

With Matt Ryan at QB things may change. He can make an average WR or TE look good. See Luck and Ebron.

[Indeee]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

With Matt Ryan at QB things may change. He can make an average WR or TE look good. See Luck and Ebron.

Lets hope so and for the record I really hope he does become great. We shall see

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Indeee said:

Lets hope so and for the record I really hope he does become great. We shall see

I think MAC's ceiling is being good, I doubt he will ever be great but with the right QB he may have around 50 catches or so with 4 or 5 TD's?? With Rivers at QB he had 31 catches, even last year with Wentz he had 4 TD's.

[Archer]

2 hours ago, Mitch Connors said:

 

Its hilarious how we hear things like "last time I checked you're not an NFL GM" when we challenge a decision by Ballard but we're sure fine acting like a 12 year NFL QB knows nothing about NFL WR talent, or the beat writers who study this team and the NFL for a living are wrong when they say WR's aren't good enough or every draft expert saying the WR's aren't good enough knows nothing. 

If you read the draft “experts”, who try to cover 32 teams, they’re constantly busting out statements that prove they don’t know any team all that well.  Someone rating WR corps recently noted the fact that “some guy named Dulin” is our 3rd receiver, which “should tell us all we need to know.”  Dulin was a Pro Bowl player - he’s not “some guy”.  

The beat guys who just cover the Colts - I respect their opinions, but we don’t have any that have been overly perspicacious now.  Honestly, most of us here have as good a handle on Colt players than they do.  So many years I’ve shaken my head as all the “experts” agree on certain positions for us that make me shake my head and question their knowledge, and more often than not I’m right!  
 

So, I don’t care that everyone’s saying our WR corps is terrible.  I think it needs a young draftee in the first few rounds, but it’s far from awful…

[masterlock]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:14 PM, Archer said:

This thread title is fraudulent!  I'm not alarmed by that statistic.  How many catches they've had in their career is irrelevant.  I agree that we have a need at WR, but it's really being overstated.  I personally believe that Dulin could be a good #2 this year, no matter how many passes he's caught in his career.  Given a chance towards the end of last year, I thought he played pretty well.  Give him more plays where he's the primary receiver, and he could be productive.  Just my opinion.  Adding a WR with more explosive qualities on Day 2 is expected, but this position isn't some kind of neglected super-weakness that many are billing it...

It' a limited same size, but Ashton Dulin's drop percentage last year was just under 1 percent (2 drops, 22 targets). Over his career, it's just over 1/2 percent. IMO, he has all the traits of big-time receiver, 6'1", 216 lbs, 4.43 speed. He just hasn't had the opportunities. 

[craigerb]

16 minutes ago, masterlock said:

Dulin's drop percentage last year was just under 1 percent (2 drops, 22 targets).

That's 9%.

[colts89]

Let's not get it twisted. All those young guys on the roster do have high potential. Matt Ryan will most likely give them a great shot to show their worth as well.

 

If not one of Patmon, Strachan or Dulin steps up as a very solid WR2 this year (I don't include Campbell until he can prove he can play for a long stretch, sorry) and the pass game is mediocre besides Pittman, then Ballard has failed in a spot where it was obvious to most that needed help. I'm fairly sure we will either draft a WR high still this draft or bring TY back, which should help for sure. But Ballard himself said the pass game was no good last year and has mentioned we needed more weapons multiple times. We will see how it goes.

[Archer]

1 hour ago, masterlock said:

It' a limited same size, but Ashton Dulin's drop percentage last year was just under 1 percent (2 drops, 22 targets). Over his career, it's just over 1/2 percent. IMO, he has all the traits of big-time receiver, 6'1", 216 lbs, 4.43 speed. He just hasn't had the opportunities. 

Yeah, even if your math doesn’t quite check out, I felt Dulin was our 2nd best WR last year without reviewing advanced metrics of any kind.  They were giving a lot of reps to Pascal and Hilton, who had poor years.  And when Dulin was in there, I don’t think he was a primary receiver in many of his reps.  I would really like to see how he does in a primary role…

[philba101]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:00 PM, CurBeatElite said:

 

Well, Rivers was our QB one of the last couple (2) years.  So you're losing me already. 

 

Second, Campbell's numbers would likely not change.  He's had huge portions of all 3 of his NFL seasons cut short due to injury. Not saying that is Ballard's fault, but he's done nothing to show he can stay healthy. As it sitsnow, he's likely our #2.  It'd be great if he proved us all wrong and balled out for 17 games and a deep playoff run... but if he gets hurt again (he's got a 100% success rate at being injured and missing significant time in his 3 years), Ballard shouldn't have an excuse as to why our wrs stunk again.

 

Ballard has talked about the potential of a number of guys, stating he's not worried about our wr group because we have guys who can potentially be consistent playmakers.  These guys include Deon Cain, Chester Rogers, Dontrelle Inman, Reece Fountain, Zac Pascal, Dez Patmon, and others... most recently Strachan.  Of the guys who have left here and played elsewhere, none have thrived, or moved up on the depth chart for other teams. So probably not a lot to do with who our qb is... there is a reason all these guys lasted late into drafts (or were undrafted).

 

I'm not going to take the time to look at other teams, but it seems odd to me that during Ballard's time here we seem to regularly be pulling guys off our practice squad and having them be playing significant minutes on Sundays when it comes to our wr squad (Marcus Johnson, DeMichael Harris come to mind). 

 

Given that Pittman wouldn't be a 1 on most teams, it makes sense that every other WR we have would be at least 1 spot lower on most other depth charts.  In some instances guys who we relied on as key contributors at wr aren't even good enough to make other rosters (eg, Inman).  

 

Ballard's job is to put playmakers on the field at wr and te.  He hasn't done that since he's been here. You can come up with all the excuses you want, but fact of the matter is all these guys Ballard tauts as high potential guys haven't panned out.  I'm not sure why people expect this to change now (Patmon went from a healthy scratch as a rookie to a guy who could have a breakoutyear, and he had 2 catches.. we're supposed to believe he's gonna make the jump? Dulin is a st ace who is fast, but has done nothing to show he can be a 17 game consistently productive playmaker, nor has anyone on our roster behind Pittman).

 

Add the fact that our TEs are near the bottom of the league as well, and Ballard isn't doing Ryan any favors.  There's still plenty of time until the season, all I'm saying is that I hope Ballard gives Ryan a couple more guys who are proven playmakers to assist Ryan this late in his career.. I'm getting sick of the 'potential' talk as 5 years of it hasn't panned out and I don't see the reason to think this year will be different. 

Wow! This makes so much sense it hurts. As they say "the truth hurts sometimes." I say this all the time, as much as people want to talk about "potential," the NFL is a "production" league. We need players who can actually produce on a regular basis, period. I don't care how or when we get them, but they need to be able to show production. So far, we haven't been able to find those talents in the draft, and have failed to acquire them via free agency.

[masterlock]

8 minutes ago, Archer said:

Yeah, even if your math doesn’t quite check out, I felt Dulin was our 2nd best WR last year without reviewing advanced metrics of any kind.  They were giving a lot of reps to Pascal and Hilton, who had poor years.  And when Dulin was in there, I don’t think he was a primary receiver in many of his reps.  I would really like to see how he does in a primary role…

Well, that's embarrassing! Decimal place error. 

[CurBeatElite]

17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Sorry, but that’s NIT an apples to apples comparison.   We let quality veterans go last year.   

This year, we are only debating Hilton.  And that would not appear to be the equal of Houston or Autry.   We used our top two picks last year on pass rush.   Thus year we’re giving guys who have either been hurt (Campbell) or inexperienced (Duhlin, Patmon and Strachan) their first real opportunity.   So the comparison doesn’t hold up well.  And of Paye and Dayo improve then the layoff will be worth it. 
 

And what the Heck does “Hold him accountable” actually mean?   There is one human being on this earth who holds Ballard accountable.  One.  Irsay is the boss.  So what kind of accountability are you talking about?  

 

Dulin, Patmon and Strachan have all been on our roster for at least a full season. I sort of understand the argument that a new qb may help them, but I think it goes out the window when you consider Patmon was a healthy scratch much of his rookie year as we regularly brought guys up and down from our practice squad who got more time than he did at WR (same with Dulin in terms of having ps guys getting more time than him).  Additionally, we have had a bottom tier wr group for several years, even if his production wasn't up, you'd expect Strachan to have seen the field more last year if he was really something special.

 

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Trying hard not to call out multiple folks. Buttttttt....

 

First of all. Understand the O we've been playing. Or not playing.

 

We HAVE NOT been playing air raid. We've been playing possession ball. 

 

Call it QB deficient or Reich conservative, but we've been short an possession. 

 

Simple as that. 

After Pittman, our WRs consist of Campbell (oft injured) and a bunch of 6th round or undrafted young guys who've done nothing to prove they are going to be special. 

 

There's a reason why these guys weren't 1st round or even top half of the draft picks.

 

4 hours ago, Archer said:

If you read the draft “experts”, who try to cover 32 teams, they’re constantly busting out statements that prove they don’t know any team all that well.  Someone rating WR corps recently noted the fact that “some guy named Dulin” is our 3rd receiver, which “should tell us all we need to know.”  Dulin was a Pro Bowl player - he’s not “some guy”.  

The beat guys who just cover the Colts - I respect their opinions, but we don’t have any that have been overly perspicacious now.  Honestly, most of us here have as good a handle on Colt players than they do.  So many years I’ve shaken my head as all the “experts” agree on certain positions for us that make me shake my head and question their knowledge, and more often than not I’m right!  
 

So, I don’t care that everyone’s saying our WR corps is terrible.  I think it needs a young draftee in the first few rounds, but it’s far from awful…

Dulin was a probowler 100% because of his ST play. As a WR he is just 'some guy', nothing special.

33 minutes ago, colts89 said:

Let's not get it twisted. All those young guys on the roster do have high potential. Matt Ryan will most likely give them a great shot to show their worth as well.

 

If not one of Patmon, Strachan or Dulin steps up as a very solid WR2 this year (I don't include Campbell until he can prove he can play for a long stretch, sorry) and the pass game is mediocre besides Pittman, then Ballard has failed in a spot where it was obvious to most that needed help. I'm fairly sure we will either draft a WR high still this draft or bring TY back, which should help for sure. But Ballard himself said the pass game was no good last year and has mentioned we needed more weapons multiple times. We will see how it goes.

 

They have good traits, that doesn't always translate to potential great football players or more importantly, actual good/great football players.  Daniel Adongo had great traits and was a freak athlete, a lot of folks got hyped up about him, but it never translated. 

 

As I pointed out above, the guys after Pittman and the oft-injured Campbell, all these guys were 6th round or undrafted guys for a reason. If GMs throughout the league thought their traits would translate into Sunday stardom, they'd have been 1st day picks.

[Archer]

1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

 

As I pointed out above, the guys after Pittman and the oft-injured Campbell, all these guys were 6th round or undrafted guys for a reason. If GMs throughout the league thought their traits would translate into Sunday stardom, they'd have been 1st day picks.

By that logic, there’s no point in signing undrafted FAs.  And yet, these players make positive contributions to every team in the league.  We have a Pro Bowler who was an UCFA (and not as a STer!)

[CurBeatElite]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

By that logic, there’s no point in signing undrafted FAs.  And yet, these players make positive contributions to every team in the league.  We have a Pro Bowler who was an UCFA (and not as a STer!)

 

No it doesn't. Nice try to put words in my mouth, though.

 

It's great when late round picks and udfa guys turn into good players. It's just rare, and WRs are an uncommon group of guys to really shine when they're not first day picks (it can happen, It's just more rare than common).

 

Ballard has said every off-season that he we have guys with potential who he thinks may emerge as studs for us... Pittman (a 2nd rd pick) is the only guy who had helped Ballard's case at WR.  I get it, we have had injuries and what not... but Ballard has helped get us pumped up about Pascal, Cain, Fountain, Patmon, etc... none of them have panned out to be anything special.

 

I didn't come close to saying we should never draft guys late or get udfas.. you can interpret what I said as 'It's not a safe bet to rely on a 6th round pick or an undrafted player who has had time in the league and hasn't produced to all of the sudden be very productive. '

[ruf]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:33 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I have no idea what Ballard is going to do in the draft but he may select a WR in round 2 and round 3 and hope one of them is good quickly. We would have 2 chances of one panning out, hell both may end up being good + they would both be on cheap rookie contracts. 

I feel better with our wr's than our OL. he should draft OL (LT) in round 2 and another OL in round 3.

this is why because we need insurance at LT if Prayor don't work out (if he does great) but this LT should also be able to slip into RG if we have a problem there. the #3 pick should be a solid G or T that could play  G thinking of RG in case Kelly get injured or Painter is not as good as they think he will be.

 

bottom line is this: we will not have a good run game or pass protection if the Line is not solid and i don't feel good with it the way it is now. if we have a good line we have the wr's to make plays.

a no brainer is Hines need to be in the slot more or in motion out of the backfield 

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

No it doesn't. Nice try to put words in my mouth, though.

 

It's great when late round picks and udfa guys turn into good players. It's just rare, and WRs are an uncommon group of guys to really shine when they're not first day picks (it can happen, It's just more rare than common).

 

Ballard has said every off-season that he we have guys with potential who he thinks may emerge as studs for us... Pittman (a 2nd rd pick) is the only guy who had helped Ballard's case at WR.  I get it, we have had injuries and what not... but Ballard has helped get us pumped up about Pascal, Cain, Fountain, Patmon, etc... none of them have panned out to be anything special.

 

I didn't come close to saying we should never draft guys late or get udfas.. you can interpret what I said as 'It's not a safe bet to rely on a 6th round pick or an undrafted player who has had time in the league and hasn't produced to all of the sudden be very productive. '

So if we draft someone, and sign a FA vet like Hilton,  and one of our young guys emerges, that’s three improvements in the WR room. 
 

I don’t think we’re as far off as you seem to think we are. 

 

[CurBeatElite]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

So if we draft someone, and sign a FA vet like Hilton,  and one of our young guys emerges, that’s three improvements in the WR room. 
 

I don’t think we’re as far off as you seem to think we are. 

 

I just said I hope Ballard does something to give Ryan proven weapons (ideally at wr and te) because as it stands now, both groups are weak compared to the rest of the league. 

 

We would be greatly improved with any proven additions at either spot.

 

I wouldn't mind TY back, but the last 3-4 years he's definitely been on the decline. To think he's going to be reliable for a full year seems flawed. To keep him healthy he'd likely have to be used very sparingly. As much as I'd like to see him break 10k yards in a Colts uniform, I'd rather see us winning consistently and I'm not sure he's the answer for that.

 

It'd also be great to see one of our guys emerge. I think the most likely is Campbell, but that will require him staying healthy which is a huge IF.