QB Discussion and Preference Poll - Part 2.5

[Zoltan]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

They went all-in on Wentz by hiring Sirianni, so it's not like they didn't try to keep him....

 

For me, I go Fitzmagic and Eason without Jones. If I'm going to litter the roster with another non-1st round QB, it would be Trask, who IMO is more well rounded than Jones, and more of a gamer.

 

They didn't go all in on Wentz, I refer you to my earlier post below. The Doug Pederson relationship with Roseman and Lurie had soured. He threatened to quit last offseason when they forced him to fire Groh, and they almost fired him in 2016, where they even interviewed Jim Schwartz to replace him. Sirianni made the most sense as a hire because he runs a similar offense as Pederson but Lurie and Roseman will have more control over coaching decisions.

 

4 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

- As for the Pederson firing, I think Roseman wanting control of the coaching staff was a bigger deal than what people are making of it. Pederson didn't want to give up control of his staff which he had to fight to keep Frank when Roseman wanted to fire him and last offseason when Roseman fired Groh (Which Pederson threatened to quit after).

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2021/1/12/22225977/doug-pederson-peace-no-longer-being-eagles-head-coach-philadelphia-howie-roseman-nfl-news

 

-Which leads me to the Sirianni hiring, I don't think they hired him to keep Wentz. I think they hired him because he ran a similar style to Doug Pederson, so no huge changes on what type of players they want and since he is young Roseman and Lurie could have control of the coaching staff. So basically a doug pederson style coach that they can control.

 

 

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

They didn't go all in on Wentz, I refer you to my earlier post below. The Doug Pederson relationship with Roseman and Lurie had soured. He threatened to quit last offseason when they forced him to fire Groh, and they almost fired him in 2016, where they even interviewed Jim Schwartz to replace him. Sirianni made the most sense as a hire because he runs a similar offense as Pederson but Lurie and Roseman will have more control over coaching decisions.

That's as much speculation as my opinion. Sirianni has never called plays let alone been a HC. And if our O in Indy is any indication, it's not much like Pederson's at all. Reich's O has never looked like Pederson's either. So sorry, I just don't buy all that. And IMO, Sirianni was the closes thing to Reich as they could get, and they new Wentz wanted Riech.

 

Regardless, you don't hire a guy with zero play calling or HC history to be the HC unless you're trying to feel a very specific need. And IMO, that need was salvaging the Wentz relationship. 

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

All the reports suggest the Eagles got rid of Pederson, and brought in the most-Wentz-friendly HC (Sirianni) they could find to keep him. And he still said "I want to leave"... 

 

I kind of feel sorry for Sirianni lol. IMO, they would not have hired him had they known Wentz wouldn't stay. And now Sirianni won't get much for Wentz, and Philly is in bad cap situation. At least he'll have low expectations for a few years, and perhaps get a decent QB with that 6th pick. Regardless, he'll have to earn it. If he turns them around, he'll deserve a lot of props.

 

There's a lot of supposition in all of this.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

There's a lot of supposition in all of this.

Sure there is. It's simply my opinion. But I'm far from the only one that has speculated or said the same.

 

Logically speaking, simple question though. What made Sirianni specifically the "guy" for Philly?

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, John Waylon said:

I don’t doubt it for a moment. He wants out of Philly bad enough I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to learn he sent some long late night text to Frank about wanting to be here. He’s been in contact with someone here.

 

Ballard isn’t going to hold his offer on the line with a player reportedly not wanting to go here or there for whatever reason on the blind assumption that if we in fact pay that price we’re not going to wind up learning he would have liked to have gone elsewhere. 
 

There aren’t all these ties between him and us, and us offering this price as a blind shot in the dark. He’s been in contact with someone who has relayed the appropriate messages to the appropriate people. 

Conspiracy theories never work....   you just shouldn’t go there.   Too much downside and not enough upside. 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Sure there is. It's simply my opinion. But I'm far from the only one that has speculated or said the same.

 

Logically speaking, simple question though. What made Sirianni specifically the "guy" for Philly?

 

IMO, the fact that a lot of people hold the same belief doesn't make it more legitimate. Everyone is working on the same partial information, some of it sound, some of it apparently baseless, and most of it probably in between. No one really knows the answers to any of this stuff, except the people in the building. And even then, a lot of it is compartmentalized, and the main players have dispersed to other organizations over the last 3-4 years.

 

As for Sirianni being the guy for Philly, he's a respected young offensive coach, which has been the trend for NFL head coaching hires for several years now. I'm fairly certain that Reich vouched for him, hard, to a front office that has a lot of respect for Reich.

 

I don't know that there's anything linking Sirianni's hire to an assumed desire by Philly to keep Wentz. In fact, Sirianni had plenty of opportunity to endorse Wentz, and declined to do so. 

 

I'm just saying that there are a lot of people are presenting these opinions as if they are decided fact, up and down. And most of this is just rumor.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

LMAO

 

 

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

LMAO

 

 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

IMO, the fact that a lot of people hold the same belief doesn't make it more legitimate. Everyone is working on the same partial information, some of it sound, some of it apparently baseless, and most of it probably in between. No one really knows the answers to any of this stuff, except the people in the building. And even then, a lot of it is compartmentalized, and the main players have dispersed to other organizations over the last 3-4 years.

 

As for Sirianni being the guy for Philly, he's a respected young offensive coach, which has been the trend for NFL head coaching hires for several years now. I'm fairly certain that Reich vouched for him, hard, to a front office that has a lot of respect for Reich.

 

I don't know that there's anything linking Sirianni's hire to an assumed desire by Philly to keep Wentz. In fact, Sirianni had plenty of opportunity to endorse Wentz, and declined to do so. 

 

I'm just saying that there are a lot of people are presenting these opinions as if they are decided fact, up and down. And most of this is just rumor.

An opinion, is just an opinion. I do try to be logical in mine. 

 

So another simple question, in the last 5 or 10 years, how many guys were hired as HC coming from the offensive side of the ball that had neither prior HC, or playing calling experience. 

 

And also, what specifically from Sirianni's background was hugely successful (where a team showed significant improvement in the area he coached). KC WRs, Rivers or WRs in SD, the O in Indy? IMO, his best time was WRs in SD when he was the WR's coach, but he was blessed with a ton of talent, and had PR tossing it and air-schemes.

[shasta519]

31 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Sure there is. It's simply my opinion. But I'm far from the only one that has speculated or said the same.

 

Logically speaking, simple question though. What made Sirianni specifically the "guy" for Philly?

I am sure Reich gave a strong recommendation. But many media outlets made the same connection that it was about Wentz. 
 

And to your point...it’s not a leap to think that Wentz approved.

 

I guess if the goal was to completely reset and get rid of both Wentz and Pederson and move on from that era...then why bring in a coach who had worked for years with Reich?

[Smoke317]

52 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

They didn't go all in on Wentz, I refer you to my earlier post below. The Doug Pederson relationship with Roseman and Lurie had soured. He threatened to quit last offseason when they forced him to fire Groh, and they almost fired him in 2016, where they even interviewed Jim Schwartz to replace him. Sirianni made the most sense as a hire because he runs a similar offense as Pederson but Lurie and Roseman will have more control over coaching decisions.

 

 

Why was Groh fired?  Was that a Carson Wentz back channel decision?  And I have an honest question for everyone.  If we get Wentz & he struggles and say we go 7-9 or worse and miss the playoffs, will everyone be calling for him to be run out of town like Brissett or will fans make excuses for him and call for more patience?  Would a lot of us be ok with the Colts going out and getting a future HoF QB like Ryan next off season and paying both Ryan & Wentz salaries like we did with Rivers & Jacoby?  
 

And lastly, if Eason outplayed Wentz in training camp or Wentz struggled, would Frank go with Eason over him?  Or will it be a Brisset/Kelly situation where we’re gonna sink or swim with Wentz like we did with Brisset regardless of his poor play?  I guess I’m just worried that some of us Colts fans are so desperate for a quick answer at QB that many will be willing to settle and make excuses for Wentz.  If he does come here I’m sure we’ll all be hoping he balls out.  But it will be interesting to see how his performances will be judged by the fans if he struggles. 

[John Waylon]

44 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

LMAO

 

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

I am sure Reich gave a strong recommendation. But many media outlets made the same connection that it was about Wentz. 
 

And to your point...it’s not a leap to think that Wentz approved.

 

I guess if the goal was to completely reset and get rid of both Wentz and Pederson and move on from that era...then why bring in a coach who had worked for years with Reich?

Yup. There's just to many logical connections, and illogical disconnects, that lead me to my opinion. I really hope Sirianni does well, but his resume for HC is just weak IMO given a lot of other guys available. I've looked at every stop he's had, and stats from every group he's had, and it's just not all that impressive. It's not bad, and sure there's a lot of context that can go both ways, but it's just no where near an obvious slam dunk hire to me. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

 

Well....   if true, it’s interesting.  Because the tweet is roughly two hours old and the story still hasn’t broken?!?    I mean...   really?

 

No one has reported this for two hours until Vin Fosh?    
 

Call me crazy, but I think I’ll wait for confirmation from a higher source. 

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well....   if true, it’s interesting.  Because the tweet is roughly two hours old and the story still hasn’t broken?!?    I mean...   really?

 

No one has reported this for two hours until Vin Fosh?    
 

Call me crazy, but I think I’ll wait for confirmation from a higher source. 

One of the responses called him an attention hound

@Chloe6124 @John Waylon

[richard pallo]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well....   if true, it’s interesting.  Because the tweet is roughly two hours old and the story still hasn’t broken?!?    I mean...   really?

 

No one has reported this for two hours until Vin Fosh?    
 

Call me crazy, but I think I’ll wait for confirmation from a higher source. 

Well the tweet says 9:46PM and it just turned 10:49PM.  That's an hour not two hours.  Not saying he knows anything but it looks like only an hour.  We will see. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Well the tweet says 9:46PM and it just turned 10:49PM.  That's an hour not two hours.  Not saying he knows anything but it looks like only an hour.  We will see. 

The tweet says 646p and I believe Vin is on the East Coast.    It’s now 11p on the east coast, so it’s been over 4 hours. 

[BluesGirl]

 

[EastStreet]

 

[richard pallo]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The tweet says 646p and I believe Vin is on the East Coast.    It’s now 11p on the east coast, so it’s been over 4 hours. 

The tweet Chloe6124 posted says 9.46PM which is probably 6:46PM west coast when it was posted. It looks like she posted it as soon as it came out and her post is an hour old.    So it's 11PM east coast now which makes it one hour. 

[EastStreet]

I think most expect it to happen anyway given all the narratives. I'm sure Chicago's offer is better, but probably not enough to offset Wents's wishes to get to Indy.

 

Anyway, I just hope Ballard stuck to his guns. While Wentz doesn't really excite me, I'll be happy to at least check the QB box for now. 

[PrincetonTiger]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

The tweet Chloe6124 posted says 9.46PM which is probably 6:46PM west coast when it was posted. It looks like she posted it as soon as it came out and her post is an hour old.    So it's 11PM east coast now which makes it one hour. 

Yes it was about 1hour ago

@NewColtsFan

[EastStreet]

 

 

[EastStreet]

 

[coltsva]

47 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Why was Groh fired?  Was that a Carson Wentz back channel decision?  And I have an honest question for everyone.  If we get Wentz & he struggles and say we go 7-9 or worse and miss the playoffs, will everyone be calling for him to be run out of town like Brissett or will fans make excuses for him and call for more patience?  Would a lot of us be ok with the Colts going out and getting a future HoF QB like Ryan next off season and paying both Ryan & Wentz salaries like we did with Rivers & Jacoby?  
 

And lastly, if Eason outplayed Wentz in training camp or Wentz struggled, would Frank go with Eason over him?  Or will it be a Brisset/Kelly situation where we’re gonna sink or swim with Wentz like we did with Brisset regardless of his poor play?  I guess I’m just worried that some of us Colts fans are so desperate for a quick answer at QB that many will be willing to settle and make excuses for Wentz.  If he does come here I’m sure we’ll all be hoping he balls out.  But it will be interesting to see how his performances will be judged by the fans if he struggles. 

Wentz has been a starter for 4 years. He’s been coached by Reich. There is no patience/grace period. He is in put up or shut up mode from the get go. 
 

If Wentz struggles and Eason outplays him in training camp, Reich will stick with Wentz, and as you said “we’re gonna sink or swim” with him.

[EastStreet]

from Florio/Keefer

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/02/17/report-colts-arent-budging-on-carson-wentz/

[gnet550]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

LMAO

 

 

He should change his name to Pancake....because he’s flip floppity....

[ojsglove]

21 minutes ago, coltsva said:

Wentz has been a starter for 4 years. He’s been coached by Reich. There is no patience/grace period. He is in put up or shut up mode from the get go. 
 

If Wentz struggles and Eason outplays him in training camp, Reich will stick with Wentz, and as you said “we’re gonna sink or swim” with him.

^^^^^^^^^^  Absolutely,  I can't see Reich having that much control over the QB situation, but if that is the case, we are screwed.

[Colts1324]

Surely by Friday night, Carson Wentz is finally traded right?? 

[EastStreet]

27 minutes ago, coltsva said:

Wentz has been a starter for 4 years. He’s been coached by Reich. There is no patience/grace period. He is in put up or shut up mode from the get go. 
 

If Wentz struggles and Eason outplays him in training camp, Reich will stick with Wentz, and as you said “we’re gonna sink or swim” with him.

Yup. With our OL (assuming we solve for LT) and running game, he just won't have any excuses.

 

I agree. Reich would stay with Wentz for the year. To be honest, if we do get Wentz, I want him to be really good. But if he's not, I hope he's really bad. I don't want to be stuck in purgatory 8-8ish. If he can't win 10 or more, I hope we crash and get a good draft pick. 

2 minutes ago, ojsglove said:

^^^^^^^^^^  Absolutely,  I can't see Reich having that much control over the QB situation, but if that is the case, we are screwed.

Why wouldn't Reich have control over the QB situation?

[ojsglove]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. With our OL (assuming we solve for LT) and running game, he just won't have any excuses.

 

I agree. Reich would stay with Wentz for the year. To be honest, if we do get Wentz, I want him to be really good. But if he's not, I hope he's really bad. I don't want to be stuck in purgatory 8-8ish. If he can't win 10 or more, I hope we crash and get a good draft pick. 

Why wouldn't Reich have control over the QB situation?

If we trade for Wentz, and Eason out plays him in camp, and he sticks with Wentz, you tell me???

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, ojsglove said:

If we trade for Wentz, and Eason out plays him in camp, and he sticks with Wentz, you tell me???

He is the HC

[EastStreet]

Just now, ojsglove said:

If we trade for Wentz, and Eason out plays him in camp, and he sticks with Wentz, you tell me???

That has zero to do with control IMO. Are you saying Ballard would over rule him? And you think they are going to start a guy that Ballard says they have no clue about, over a guy they just traded for that's costing them 20+M. And it's probably Frank pushing for Wentz, so you really think Frank would give up before week 1?

 

To be clear, just saying if it's close at all, and Wentz simply doesn't stink up the place, he'd start over Eason. Wentz would have to be pretty terrible to lose the job IMO. And honestly, unless they think Eason is the next franchise guy, I'd rather get a good draft pick lol.

[ojsglove]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

That has zero to do with control IMO. Are you saying Ballard would over rule him? And you think they are going to start a guy that Ballard says they have no clue about, over a guy they just traded for that's costing them 20+M. And it's probably Frank pushing for Wentz, so you really think Frank would give up before week 1?

 

To be clear, just saying if it's close at all, and Wentz simply doesn't stink up the place, he'd start over Eason. Wentz would have to be pretty terrible to lose the job IMO. And honestly, unless they think Eason is the next franchise guy, I'd rather get a good draft pick lol.

I would hope that Ballard has the ability to over rule him.  This whole Wentz fiasco has gone on way to long.  Your a stat's guy, does it make sense to you to bring Wentz in based on his last few seasons just because Reich has a past history with him?  

[NewColtsFan]

Does anyone in the crowd currently floating the preposterous idea that Eason is going to outplay Wentz and how that would be like when Kelly outplayed...    anybody...  and what would we do? 
 

Can we please stop this?   Now?

 

Because that didn’t happen.  Ever. 
 

Kelly has been unemployed for a long time.  Any NFL team could’ve signed him by now.   None have.   Heck, the Colts could’ve re-signed Kelly at any point and we never have.  And we just signed a nobody QB to our roster about two weeks ago for camp.  It could’ve been Kelly.   It wasn’t. 
 

So can we please stop with the theory that Ballard and Reich could’ve played him, because he was clearly so much better,  but didn’t. 
 

You’re entitled to your own opinion.  Just not your own facts. 

[zibby43]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

They went all-in on Wentz by hiring Sirianni, so it's not like they didn't try to keep him....

 

For me, I go Fitzmagic and Eason without Jones. If I'm going to litter the roster with another non-1st round QB, it would be Trask, who IMO is more well rounded than Jones, and more of a gamer.

 

I think Trask is going to free-fall to the 3rd round.  I'm not sold on him at all.  He kind of disappeared without Pitts.

 

I like Fitzpatrick as a veteran option if the Colts go all in on Fields or Wilson, which are my 2 favorite prospects in this class.  It was reported today that several teams have Wilson graded higher than Lawrence.   

 

For me, it goes something like this:

 

1) Lawrence

 

2) (a) Fields

 

2) (b) Wilson

 

3) Lance

 

4) Jones

 

5) Trask (third rounder)

 

Honorable mention: Ian Book (taken in 6th round)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

Just now, ojsglove said:

I would hope that Ballard has the ability to over rule him.  This whole Wentz fiasco has gone on way to long.  Your a stat's guy, does it make sense to you to bring Wentz in based on his last few seasons just because Reich has a past history with him?  

Ballard always has the power to overrule Reich. But he's not going to do that. The minute he does on a big issue like that, is about the time the relationship breaks, and we go looking for a new coach.

 

I could make logical arguments on both sides. One side is Wentz was very good in 2017 when Reich was there. The other side is he was very bad last year, his health is a concern, and he might be broken. There's legit points to both sides.

 

Personally, I've been clear. The concerns are too much for me to give up much for him. If he comes here though, I'll wish for the best and be a big Wentz fan (at least to start with). That doesn't mean I won't be statistically critical when warranted though. In my eyes, good is good, bad is bad. 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Does anyone in the crowd currently floating the preposterous idea that Eason is going to outplay Wentz and how that would be like when Kelly outplayed...    anybody...  and what would we do? 
 

Can we please stop this?   Now?

 

Because that didn’t happen.  Ever. 
 

Kelly has been unemployed for a long time.  Any NFL team could’ve signed him by now.   None have.   Heck, the Colts could’ve re-signed Kelly at any point and we never have.  And we just signed a nobody QB to our roster about two weeks ago for camp.  It could’ve been Kelly.   It wasn’t. 
 

So can we please stop with the theory that Ballard and Reich could’ve played him, because he was clearly so much better,  but didn’t. 
 

You’re entitled to your own opinion.  Just not your own facts. 

Not disagreeing with you, but the Bills just gave Kelly a tryout, and rumor is he'll likely be with them next season.

[ojsglove]

My whole point.  Frank seems to be a great guy, but his coaching, and play calling decisions have left skid marks, if you know what I mean.  I am totally against signing Wentz unless it's a steal.  We still have time to see else comes available.

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

 

I think Trask is going to free-fall to the 3rd round.  I'm not sold on him at all.  He kind of disappeared without Pitts.

 

I like Fitzpatrick as a veteran option if the Colts go all in on Fields or Wilson, which are my 2 favorite prospects in this class.  It was reported today that several teams have Wilson graded higher than Lawrence.   

 

For me, it goes something like this:

 

1) Lawrence

 

2) (a) Fields

 

2) (b) Wilson

 

3) Lance

 

4) Jones

 

5) Trask (third rounder)

 

Honorable mention: Ian Book (taken in 6th round)

For me

1. Lawrence (and it's not even close)

2. Wilson

3. Lance

4. Trask

5. Jones or Newman (he's got rust)

 

Trask had 408 and 3 TDs vs Bama.... 

 

You do realize don't you that FL was without Pitts, Toney, Grimes, Wright, and others vs OK. That's his top 4 pass catchers. Trask didn't really play the 2nd half either. It was a throw away game.