Preaching Competition and not backing it up!!! (merge)

[TimetobringDfence!]

FR and CB have preached competition in this building process but are failing to apply it. Sticking with AV and JB is mind numbing. Something isnt adding up in this FO. I think there is something going on behind the scenes. JI CB and FR arent walking what theyre talking. I have a feeling its Irsay pulling strings here and FR is in a no win situation backing up FO decisions. I feel a rift coming, players dont care anymore and Franks saying same things over and over. ????

[TimetobringDfence!]

Maybe they are just intentially throwing the rest of the season. I dont like that one bit. We have too many good pieces and young talent to be quitters. Hope thats not the case.

[Btown_Colt]

Cool story

[Coffeedrinker]

41 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

FR and CB have preached competition in this building process but are failing to apply it. Sticking with AV and JB is mind numbing. Something isnt adding up in this FO. I think there is something going on behind the scenes. JI CB and FR arent walking what theyre talking. I have a feeling its Irsay pulling strings here and FR is in a no win situation backing up FO decisions. I feel a rift coming, players dont care anymore and Franks saying same things over and over. ????

A couple of comments in case you are really interested in the topic and not just a troll.

 

1.  How do you know they are not applying competition?  In the case of JB.. how has Hoyer and Kelly done compared to JB on the game plan tests?  How have they done in practice compared to be JB?  How are they at answering questions in the film room?  Do any of them show up late to meetings?  How long do they stay and do film study?  What, you don't know the answer to those questions.  So maybe you are not the best to judge on whether they are failing to apply what they preached.

 

2.  For AV, they held tryouts for kickers two different times and each time AV out kicked the competition.  Then when they signed a kicker they wanted he has kicked ever since.  

 

Other examples, Tell working his way over Wilson.  Oke moving into the starting lineup of Adams, Stewart moving into the starting lineup over Hunt.  Willis working his way into the starting lineup over Geathers.  Marcus Johnson getting reps over Dulin.

 

it seems competition is in full swing... still for the Colts and they make changes accordingly.

[CurBeatElite]

Is there a better option that JB right now at QB?  No, there's not.  He hasn't been great, but he hasn't been as bad as some people make him out to be (just looking at a JB thread earlier, back on 10/27/2019 many were saying he is our sure-fire franchise QB).  JB's playing with a bunch of undrafted WRs and TEs (he got TY back last night, but they obviously either weren't on the same page or TY was a step slow), and his play has seemingly dropped off in the past several weeks.  Regardless, replacing him with Hoyer does nothing for increasing the competition on this team.  It may be nice to get at taste of C. Kelly now that we're eliminated, but it's not like we're going to sign someone off the street (unless A. Luck was healthy again) and see an improvement in QB play or competition at the QB level.

 

Maybe we held on the AV too long (maybe he held on too long)... but again, the available kickers out there are available kickers for a reason.  The 9ers signed our current kicker after an injury to Robbie Gould and then waived him after he missed a game winner in OT (which allowed the Seahawks to surpass the 9ers for first place in the NFC West and may allow the Seahawks to wind up atop the entire NFC with a 1 seed in the playoffs).... I don't think for one second that Frank has lost this team, nor do I think FR and CB are not trying to be a competitive team.

 

This season has been a weird year, starting with Luck's retirement right before the season started and then we've had a plethora of injuries to key players.  Other than last night, we've been competitive in every single game playing with a group of scrubs at WR and dealing with injuries all over the board.

[aaron11]

i felt like there wasnt enough competition for Jacoby after Luck retired too. kelly was pretty good in the preseason, better than JB tbh 

[hoosierhawk]

4 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

Is there a better option that JB right now at QB?  No, there's not.  He hasn't been great, but he hasn't been as bad as some people make him out to be (just looking at a JB thread earlier, back on 10/27/2019 many were saying he is our sure-fire franchise QB).  JB's playing with a bunch of undrafted WRs and TEs (he got TY back last night, but they obviously either weren't on the same page or TY was a step slow), and his play has seemingly dropped off in the past several weeks.  Regardless, replacing him with Hoyer does nothing for increasing the competition on this team.  It may be nice to get at taste of C. Kelly now that we're eliminated, but it's not like we're going to sign someone off the street (unless A. Luck was healthy again) and see an improvement in QB play or competition at the QB level.

 

Maybe we held on the AV too long (maybe he held on too long)... but again, the available kickers out there are available kickers for a reason.  The 9ers signed our current kicker after an injury to Robbie Gould and then waived him after he missed a game winner in OT (which allowed the Seahawks to surpass the 9ers for first place in the NFC West and may allow the Seahawks to wind up atop the entire NFC with a 1 seed in the playoffs).... I don't think for one second that Frank has lost this team, nor do I think FR and CB are not trying to be a competitive team.

 

This season has been a weird year, starting with Luck's retirement right before the season started and then we've had a plethora of injuries to key players.  Other than last night, we've been competitive in every single game playing with a group of scrubs at WR and dealing with injuries all over the board.

So TY was a step slow. Pascal must have been about 10 steps too slow and same for Doyle on a couple passes..Later in the game our receivers all of a sudden got too fast and were outrunning the ball. TY's calf must have hurt on a play in the second half because he hardly jumped for a pass and it couldn't have been more than10 feet over his head.

 

As for the group of scrubs at WR, maybe the 'Scrub' QB is making them look like scrubs.

[Thunderbolt]

All this season, JB has been mediocre at best and this is indicative of the record the Colts are in right now.  You can make an argument that he was 5-2 at one point, but ever since he sucked...You can blame Reich for this too of his vanilla calling along with Flus....To be schooled by the Saints last night was totally pathetic and embarrassing.  The Saints if you notice after the scored 34-0, they knew they had the game in the bag and they let up as if they were feeling sorry for this team(Colts)....Yes this team needs an overhaul, and send JB packing or trade him, b/c we'll never go to the playoffs with this bunch....PS: You'll see a drop off in attendance this Sunday as well

[CurBeatElite]

1 hour ago, hoosierhawk said:

So TY was a step slow. Pascal must have been about 10 steps too slow and same for Doyle on a couple passes..Later in the game our receivers all of a sudden got too fast and were outrunning the ball. TY's calf must have hurt on a play in the second half because he hardly jumped for a pass and it couldn't have been more than10 feet over his head.

 

As for the group of scrubs at WR, maybe the 'Scrub' QB is making them look like scrubs.

 

Probably goes both ways..

[Bert Johns]

Chris Ballard always says we are always looking to improve this roster. Is that just bunk Or is he really. If your trying to improve your roster and Jb isn't playing well (missing wide open receivers) actually regressing and you have a fairly young Chad Kelly who played well in the preseason. Why not play him and see if he has what it takes to be a starting Qb. The only way you find out is by playing the guy. I don't want to hear the coaches see him in practice. Remember Allen Iversons words practice are we talking about practice. Practice isn't live bullets. You think Bill Belichick would hesitate to yank Jb out. He would not worry about his feelings. Your paid to produce wins if not take a seat period.

[EastStreet]

 

 

[GoColts8818]

6 minutes ago, Bert Johns said:

Chris Ballard always says we are always looking to improve this roster. Is that just bunk Or is he really. If your trying to improve your roster and Jb isn't playing well (missing wide open receivers) actually regressing and you have a fairly young Chad Kelly who played well in the preseason. Why not play him and see if he has what it takes to be a starting Qb. The only way you find out is by playing the guy. I don't want to hear the coaches see him in practice. Remember Allen Iversons words practice are we talking about practice. Practice isn't live bullets. You think Bill Belichick would hesitate to yank Jb out. He would not worry about his feelings. Your paid to produce wins if not take a seat period.

In order to improve you have to have someone better to bring in.  I don’t think there is someone better out there that isn’t currently on a roster.  In terms of who plays once they are here that is largely up to the head coach.  I agree that Kelly should play these last two games just to see what the Colts do or don’t have in him.  While he played well in the pre-season he did it against other teams backups and guys who aren’t in the NFL and never were going to be past the pre-season.  You can’t take that and say it will translate in a real game against other teams number ones.  That’s why I think the Colts should see what they have in him.  However, the key to this seems to be Reich, not Ballard, who is unwilling to make that move.  I’ve said before Ballard will be judged largely by what he does this off-season.  If they go with Jacoby and are wrong both Ballard and Reich will be gone before much longer.  

[WoolMagnet]

1 hour ago, Bert Johns said:

Chris Ballard always says we are always looking to improve this roster. Is that just bunk Or is he really. If your trying to improve your roster and Jb isn't playing well (missing wide open receivers) actually regressing and you have a fairly young Chad Kelly who played well in the preseason. Why not play him and see if he has what it takes to be a starting Qb. The only way you find out is by playing the guy. I don't want to hear the coaches see him in practice. Remember Allen Iversons words practice are we talking about practice. Practice isn't live bullets. You think Bill Belichick would hesitate to yank Jb out. He would not worry about his feelings. Your paid to produce wins if not take a seat period.

This again.

think. Its pretty simple.

[Thunderbolt]

I think Reich gets too emotionally attached to certain players and wants to win their friendship or something instead of treating it like a business.  That's what you got hired for Frank, now let's start coaching so we can get some wins....I guess NOT, you're putting JB in the next two games which equate to 2 losses again...

[BigO]

Not so sure about Reich and Ballard being gone very quick. It took Irsay way too long to pull the trigger on Grigson and Pagano.

[Shepman]

A change like this doesn't happen in a silo.  This decision would be made by both FR and CB.  You finish the season with Brissett and only make CK active if one of the QBs are injured.

[Mr.Debonair]

Ballard knows more than everyone on here so its silly to question him. That's what I heard

[#12.]

Pretty much everything works when you have an elite, top-5 QB.   You can build it however you want - New England moneyball style, good leaders, good locker room guys, whatever.  When you're losing 6 of 7, none of it matters.  Brissett's a good guy and great leader?  If Brissett can't come within 10 yards of an open receiver, how much of a leader can he really be in the locker room?  How far will the fact he is a nice guy take your organization?  

 

 

[CoachSmok3]

I just have a question- on this never ending topic... 

*And I know that the question could be spun- And Ill address that soon...

What If Kelly goes in and hes Curtis Painter 2.0?

 

*The reverse- He rocks out.... Great. The Swagpound was right, and the Colts are winning. Id eat that crow gladly...

 

But what if dude BOMBS!!!!!

 

Then where are the goalposts going to be moved to?

 

Oh well they set him up to fail by waiting so long

Oh well they set him up to fail by backing JB publicly over him

Oh well of course he failed wheres the talent around him

Oh well of course we lost both of those games, but did u see it? eye ball test said hes a HOFer

 

 

This is my biggest annoyance with this... We're losing- so people complain. I get it. Its human. But how does it end?

 

I am starting to think that most people know that with 12 retiring, Injuries aplenty, and a young team thats not quite there yet.... Grasping at straws... This (IMO) inst fandom... Its being a "Karen"

[Archer]

Kelly playing wouldn’t solve anything.  If he played well, we still can’t trust him enough at this point (on and off the field) to make him Plan A.  Kelly will compete for back-up QB duties next year (assuming he keeps his nose clean), no matter what happens ahead of him on the depth chart...

[ColtsAC]

52 minutes ago, Archer said:

Kelly playing wouldn’t solve anything.  If he played well, we still can’t trust him enough at this point (on and off the field) to make him Plan A.  Kelly will compete for back-up QB duties next year (assuming he keeps his nose clean), no matter what happens ahead of him on the depth chart...

I think that is a big part of Kelly's not playing...mgt will not go to him, even in a mop up, till they totally trust Kelly the man.

[JMichael557]

Kelly is not playing becasue it is a no win situtation for Reich and Ballard if he succeeds. If he comes in an plays well then everyone will ask why he was not playing earlier. Management is simply covering up mistakes by continuing to play the wrong players. FYI it happens all the time. Think Trent Richardson, If you think that just becasue you are a GM or the coach that you always play the best player then you have not been around coaching. Right now Ballard and Reich are trying to figure out a way to cover up the mistake of relying on JB to the distruction of the season along with the Hoyer signing. 

[aaron11]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Kelly playing wouldn’t solve anything.  If he played well, we still can’t trust him enough at this point (on and off the field) to make him Plan A.  Kelly will compete for back-up QB duties next year (assuming he keeps his nose clean), no matter what happens ahead of him on the depth chart...

why cant you trust him now?  where did you get this trust time frame from?

 

i dont see anything changing in the next few months.  hell he might even be better than jacoby, but you assume he will only compete for the back up spot 

[EastStreet]

59 minutes ago, CoachSmok3 said:

I just have a question- on this never ending topic... 

*And I know that the question could be spun- And Ill address that soon...

What If Kelly goes in and hes Curtis Painter 2.0?

 

*The reverse- He rocks out.... Great. The Swagpound was right, and the Colts are winning. Id eat that crow gladly...

 

But what if dude BOMBS!!!!!

 

Then where are the goalposts going to be moved to?

 

Oh well they set him up to fail by waiting so long

Oh well they set him up to fail by backing JB publicly over him

Oh well of course he failed wheres the talent around him

Oh well of course we lost both of those games, but did u see it? eye ball test said hes a HOFer

 

This is my biggest annoyance with this... We're losing- so people complain. I get it. Its human. But how does it end?

 

I am starting to think that most people know that with 12 retiring, Injuries aplenty, and a young team thats not quite there yet.... Grasping at straws... This (IMO) inst fandom... Its being a "Karen"

IMO, if he bombs, he bombs, and you cut him. The experiment is over, the mystery is gone, and the fans move on. I doubt you see many excuses. If he rocks out, you know you have someone to keep developing, and at minimum a quality back up.

 

Why invest in him on the PS or otherwise if you don't want to evaluate him in game situations. And you really only get that opportunity when games are out of hand (one way or the other), or when the season is not on the line. 

57 minutes ago, Archer said:

Kelly playing wouldn’t solve anything.  If he played well, we still can’t trust him enough at this point (on and off the field) to make him Plan A.  Kelly will compete for back-up QB duties next year (assuming he keeps his nose clean), no matter what happens ahead of him on the depth chart...

If you don't feel you can ever trust him in the future, why invest in him even with a PS spot in the first place. There are plenty of other cheap alternatives out there without the baggage that are more safe game manager types. And why give him one of the highest paid PS contracts. And even if it's just developmental for a backup, if you really feel you'll never be able to trust him, do you want him as a guy who is one injury away from leading the team. 

 

Not saying it "solves" anything by playing him, but it certainly provides valuable evaluation time even if he's only considered back up material going forward. And we're in a situation where the season or outcomes of games don't matter near as much. IMO, optics is the only reason not to evaluate. And that's weak.

[deedub75]

3 hours ago, BigO said:

Not so sure about Reich and Ballard being gone very quick. It took Irsay way too long to pull the trigger on Grigson and Pagano.

 

I'm not saying that Reich or Ballard should be gone anytime soon but it's possible that Irsay could have learned his lesson from hanging on to Grigson and Pagano too long.  

[BigO]

54 minutes ago, JMichael557 said:

Kelly is not playing becasue it is a no win situtation for Reich and Ballard if he succeeds. If he comes in an plays well then everyone will ask why he was not playing earlier. Management is simply covering up mistakes by continuing to play the wrong players. FYI it happens all the time. Think Trent Richardson, If you think that just becasue you are a GM or the coach that you always play the best player then you have not been around coaching. Right now Ballard and Reich are trying to figure out a way to cover up the mistake of relying on JB to the distruction of the season along with the Hoyer signing. 

Great post. Agree with this 100 %

[CoachSmok3]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

IMO, if he bombs, he bombs, and you cut him. The experiment is over, the mystery is gone, and the fans move on. I doubt you see many excuses. If he rocks out, you know you have someone to keep developing, and at minimum a quality back up.

 

Why invest in him on the PS or otherwise if you don't want to evaluate him in game situations. And you really only get that opportunity when games are out of hand (one way or the other), or when the season is not on the line. 

If you don't feel you can ever trust him in the future, why invest in him even with a PS spot in the first place.

 

What up ES! I love our talks, BTW, truly! I do hope you know that!

 

But to address the bolded...

 

1) You and I BOTH KNOW that that is NOT going to be the reality... Come on, man lol

 

2/3) Why did we keep P. Walker so long then?

 

Practice arms are practice arms... NOT ALL PS players are waiting to be discovered as legit performers... Most are just what they are... Practice Bodies

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, CoachSmok3 said:

 

What up ES! I love our talks, BTW, truly! I do hope you know that!

 

But to address the bolded...

 

1) You and I BOTH KNOW that that is NOT going to be the reality... Come on, man lol

Wazzup Smoke 

 

You won't hear any excuses from me. If he stinks, I'm all for cutting him and putting the story to bed. 

5 minutes ago, CoachSmok3 said:

2/3) Why did we keep P. Walker so long then?

 

Practice arms are practice arms... NOT ALL PS players are waiting to be discovered as legit performers... Most are just what they are... Practice Bodies

We didn't pay Walker squat. You don't pay a PS the max or close to the max if he's just a practice body. You do pay a practice body like Walker squat though.. 

[CoachSmok3]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Wazzup Smoke 

 

You won't hear any excuses from me. If he stinks, I'm all for cutting him and putting the story to bed. 

 

We didn't pay Walker squat. You don't pay a PS the max or close to the max if he's just a practice body. You do pay a practice body like Walker squat though.. 

 

Respect. And If he did get in- and balled out- Ill admit I was wrong/unfair to the Swag lol

 

But, Bro... when talking the amount of money hes paid compared to the overall roster... Still change. IMO... that really doesnt mean that much...

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, CoachSmok3 said:

 

Respect. And If he did get in- and balled out- Ill admit I was wrong/unfair to the Swag lol

 

But, Bro... when talking the amount of money hes paid compared to the overall roster... Still change. IMO... that really doesnt mean that much...

IDK. IIRC Kelly was making more on the PS than the 53 man min base. The PS min is only around 130K for the whole series and I think he was making 5ish times that.

[Archer]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

If you don't feel you can ever trust him in the future, why invest in him even with a PS spot in the first place. There are plenty of other cheap alternatives out there without the baggage that are more safe game manager types. And why give him one of the highest paid PS contracts. And even if it's just developmental for a backup, if you really feel you'll never be able to trust him, do you want him as a guy who is one injury away from leading the team. 

 

Not saying it "solves" anything by playing him, but it certainly provides valuable evaluation time even if he's only considered back up material going forward. And we're in a situation where the season or outcomes of games don't matter near as much. IMO, optics is the only reason not to evaluate. And that's weak.

I don’t think that he can never be trusted.  He’s kept out of trouble for longer on the Colts than he has anywhere else.  But let’s see if he can keep clean through that critical off-season, and if he can do that and come in motivated next year, then we can start trusting his character.  Let’s not forget how many times he proved unworthy in the past.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, Archer said:

I don’t think that he can never be trusted.  He’s kept out of trouble for longer on the Colts than he has anywhere else.  But let’s see if he can keep clean through that critical off-season, and if he can do that and come in motivated next year, then we can start trusting his character.  Let’s not forget how many times he proved unworthy in the past.

So as long as he doesn't going swimming in the Indy canal over the spring/summer, you're open to him playing?

 

If they are really willing to play the long game with him, they must really think there is potential.

[ColtsBlueFL]

16 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

If they go with Jacoby and are wrong both Ballard and Reich will be gone before much longer.  

 

Doubt that.  Jim isn't into dumping coaches and upsetting the team apple cart every 2-3 years like some organizations. He wants stability.  Colts were left holding the JB bag. He is signed through next year. If he doesn't pan out, CB/FR will go a different route at QB. Irsay doesn't have his finger on the GM and HC eject buttons.

[ColtsBlueFL]

4 hours ago, ColtsAC said:

I think that is a big part of Kelly's not playing...mgt will not go to him, even in a mop up, till they totally trust Kelly the man.

 

Might be paying dues to punch his ticket to compete next year, at least for QB2.

 

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

IDK. IIRC Kelly was making more on the PS than the 53 man min base. The PS min is only around 130K for the whole series and I think he was making 5ish times that.

 

With the weirdness about Broncos/Colts situation, I think his total combined PS pay for 2019 was going to be just slightly under NFL minimum. So I believe when he got promoted to the Colts roster, his game checks went up a skosh.

[shasta519]

4 hours ago, JMichael557 said:

Kelly is not playing becasue it is a no win situtation for Reich and Ballard if he succeeds.

 

I agree with this statement. Reich and Ballard stand to gain nothing by Kelly playing...let alone succeeding.

[shasta519]

27 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Doubt that.  Jim isn't into dumping coaches and upsetting the team apple cart every 2-3 years like some organizations. He wants stability.  Colts were left holding the JB bag. He is signed through next year. If he doesn't pan out, CB/FR will go a different route at QB. Irsay doesn't have his finger on the GM and HC eject buttons.

 

Yep. And regardless, Irsay isn't allowing Ballard to commit to JB long-term without his approval. You are likely talking about a $75-100M expenditure.

[EastStreet]

44 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Might be paying dues to punch his ticket to compete next year, at least for QB2.

I think it's simply more about limiting QB controversy.

That's a lot of pay to allow someone just to punch a ticket. I'm sure they absolutely want him to prove himself, I just think that if we were not in the situation we were in with JB (for instance with a QB we knew wouldn't be back), he would get some time.

 

44 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

With the weirdness about Broncos/Colts situation, I think his total combined PS pay for 2019 was going to be just slightly under NFL minimum. So I believe when he got promoted to the Colts roster, his game checks went up a skosh.

I think his contract was around 1.2Mish for two years when he got bumped up, which was a tad over what I thought he was getting 500Kish. Min is under 500K I thought.

[Coffeedrinker]

I was going to reply with a copy and paste from the same thing that was spouted a couple of days ago.  But since the OP has not come back to the thread I am assuming he's a troll.

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Doubt that.  Jim isn't into dumping coaches and upsetting the team apple cart every 2-3 years like some organizations. He wants stability.  Colts were left holding the JB bag. He is signed through next year. If he doesn't pan out, CB/FR will go a different route at QB. Irsay doesn't have his finger on the GM and HC eject buttons.

Jim wants to win and the fact that he held on to Pagano and Grigson too long makes me think Reich and Ballard are going to get less time.  Also that’s just how it works in the NFL you come in and pick your QB and if you are wrong and the team isn’t winning you get shown the door and someone else tries.

 

also Reich sounds like he’s hitching his Wagon to Jacoby.  Maybe that’s just coach speak but If it’s not and he’s saying that’s my guy he had better be right.  If not those are the things that get people fired in the NFL.  
 

nothing is going to happen this off-season but if the Colts struggle next year there is a real chance Frank gets fired.

[Archer]

5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

So as long as he doesn't going swimming in the Indy canal over the spring/summer, you're open to him playing?

 

If they are really willing to play the long game with him, they must really think there is potential.

He cost us nothing to get him.  No one else wanted him.  Yeah, I think the long game (if you call 2 years a long game) is 100% appropriate with this guy.  If he ever starts a game, he’s exceeded my expectations for him...