Wide receiver separation

[dodsworth]

What makes a WR have the knack to get open that had good speed such as

Jerry Rice and Reggie Wayne but Dorsett and others with high end speed

struggle to be efficient.

 

Alot of posters have stated that our receivers are not getting separation.

So what do our receivers 'except TY' have to do to get open?

 

 

[DaveA1102]

Its a really good question, and one I have been thinking about recently.

 

A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on the route running.  It seems to be a focus in camp, as you see reporters/coaches say "his routes are really crisp", "great at getting in and out of routes", etc.

 

Basically I take this to mean the way in which they try to fool the CB (ie start running like it is a "go" route.....full speed ahead) and then slam on the brakes for a pass over the middle. 

 

This seems to be what makes someone great and gives them separation.  The ability to fool the CB into thinking you are doing something different to what you are, then it is the speed you have that makes it even more of a separation. 

 

You can see it on tape sometimes when a WR is running at a CB and can do a juke or double move and then has completely lost them.  It takes more than speed to get that to work.

 

I am sure some of the members of the Board will be able to put it better than myself but that is my impression.

[dodsworth]

I kinda figured it was route running, but you would think if it was

your sole purpose and job to run routes, then a player would 

eventually get good at it.

 

I don't understand why this can't be taught or learned. Maybe it 

has more to do with cutting ability and agility than just raw speed.

[Surge89]

Oh I love this conversation!  The biggest misconception in sports is that speed is key for everything. That is false.  Speed is a baseline.  You have a minimum threshhold in which you have to be at least this fast in order to be professional but once past that threshhold many other factors come into play.  For receivers it's what some call the "burst step".  The ability to accelerate at a high rate of speed.  Couple this insane ability to accelerate with creativity in deception (aka route running) and that's when you have legitimate receivers.  

 

The best example of this given in the last discussion we had on this was Austin Collie.  Given his attributes many would say he is an average athletic talent in the NFL but his ability to be open was on the elite level.  Mainly because once he hit the top of the route he was so good at exploding to the catch point and Manning was so good at anticipation that when they would connect it would make Collie seems 2 to 3 times faster than the defender when in reality he was probably slower.  

 

You can actually see this trait be valuable across any sport that involves physical movement.  Soccer is another big one in which often times some of the best players in the world rarely have what would be considered elite speed but yet are routine goal scorers or standouts players in the best leagues.  But it's a 2 part trait.  As the physical aspect of it is great and all but if you can't use it intelligently you waste the ability entirely. 

[chad72]

First, the WR has to understand if it is going to be man or zone coverage.

 

Next, he has to know not just his responsibility but also what the other guy will be doing so that he will know where the openings will be. Next, if the other WR makes a mistake, he may have to adjust instead of creating a crowd to throw into that will result in more defenders in the area. That is called spatial awareness.

 

Then, you have to adapt in zone coverage to see which way the safeties and LBs are leaning and sit in the zone they may vacate to provide your QB that 0.5-1.0 second of time to know his target.

 

Lots of things to process in 2-3 seconds, and if you can do all of that quickly, you will be in a spot within a couple of seconds and be able to turn around for the ball typically.  Then, if you realize the WR has been grabby and sticky, you need to be able to stop on a dime and come back real hard to generate the separation.

[aaron11]

rodgers was our best WR on the field monday night, i doubt thats going to be good enough to win many games in the nfl

 

 

[aaron11]

4 minutes ago, dodsworth said:

I kinda figured it was route running, but you would think if it was

your sole purpose and job to run routes, then a player would 

eventually get good at it.

 

I don't understand why this can't be taught or learned. Maybe it 

has more to do with cutting ability and agility than just raw speed.

 good route running changes depending on what the defense is doing 

[chad72]

Just now, aaron11 said:

 good route running changes depending on what the defense is doing 

 

True. That is why spatial awareness and knowledge of what the other WRs will be doing helps you to adapt.

[chad72]

8 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

Oh I love this conversation!  The biggest misconception in sports is that speed is key for everything. That is false.  Speed is a baseline.  You have a minimum threshhold in which you have to be at least this fast in order to be professional but once past that threshhold many other factors come into play.  For receivers it's what some call the "burst step".  The ability to accelerate at a high rate of speed.  Couple this insane ability to accelerate with creativity in deception (aka route running) and that's when you have legitimate receivers.  

 

The best example of this given in the last discussion we had on this was Austin Collie.  Given his attributes many would say he is an average athletic talent in the NFL but his ability to be open was on the elite level.  Mainly because once he hit the top of the route he was so good at exploding to the catch point and Manning was so good at anticipation that when they would connect it would make Collie seems 2 to 3 times faster than the defender when in reality he was probably slower.  

 

You can actually see this trait be valuable across any sport that involves physical movement.  Soccer is another big one in which often times some of the best players in the world rarely have what would be considered elite speed but yet are routine goal scorers or standouts players in the best leagues.  But it's a 2 part trait.  As the physical aspect of it is great and all but if you can use it intelligently you waste the ability entirely. 

 

Absolutely. Austin Collie was a treat to watch, with the way he got open. He did however have very good 3-cone speed, which is critical for a wide out in the slot, that shows your ability for the quick twitch underneath. Once his knee injury happened, that is when the decline happened. His career always brings the "what could have been" element in my mind every time I think of it, knowing where his ceiling was, makes me sad.

[Surge89]

4 minutes ago, chad72 said:

First, the WR has to understand if it is going to be man or zone coverage.

 

Next, he has to know not just his responsibility but also what the other guy will be doing so that he will know where the openings will be. 

 

Next, if the other WR makes a mistake, he may have to adjust instead of creating a crowd to throw into that will result in more defenders in the area. That is called spatial awareness.

 

Lots of things to process in 2-3 seconds, and if you can do all of that quickly, you will be in a spot within a couple of seconds and be able to turn around for the ball typically.  Then, if you realize the WR has been grabby and sticky, you need to be able to stop on a dime and come back real hard to generate the separation.

 

Oh great point indeed!  Spacial awareness is one of the most overlooked traits in receivers.  This is why knowing the playbook is so important because you need a bird's eye grasp of what the entire play looks like so that when you are actually on the field you can still keep the shape even though everything isn't perfect.  That's another reason why there are some players who show up so well in practice (because in practice you are repeating the theory behind the design and trying to simulate the parts that are in flux) but during a game it's almost never perfect like it is in practice and many players aren't flexible enough to adjust to the existing conditions of the play. 

[Coffeedrinker]

@Lucky Colts Fan, in the thread Nelson Pull fake, posted a video of all of Luck's throws and watching that video, WRs getting open did not seem to be the problem.  There was a couple, one where Rogers was running a drag route and the CB was staying right with him but that is a speed thing and Rogers is not going to run away from many CBs in the league.

 

The issues seemed to be:

- Luck misfiring - he had several bad throws when the receiver was open.

- Line did not give him a lot of time to go through his progressions.

- Luck just not being on the same page with his receivers yet.

 

Some of the misfires could be rust on Luck, could be the receivers not being exactly where they are supposed to be.  For example on the first pass that Luck threw about 3 yards in front of the receiver was that a bad throw or did the receiver go too deep before hooking?  I don't know.  On another drag route, Luck threw the ball too high, so was the ball too high or did the receiver drag too shallow?

 

Luck, had a bad game, but he still looks really good to me.  And in the video of all his passes, there was at least one WR open every time and either Luck misfired or the line did not give him time to find the WR.

[Surge89]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

Absolutely. Austin Collie was a treat to watch, with the way he got open. He did however have very good 3-cone speed, which is critical for a wide out in the slot, that shows your ability for the quick twitch underneath. Once his knee injury happened, that is when the decline happened. His career always brings the "what could have been" element in my mind every time I think of it, knowing where his ceiling was.

 

Oh goodness he was a treat to watch no doubt.  To think if him and Manning could have had another 3 years I'm pretty sure they'd have their own assault on some records. 

 

Yes his 3 cone was great but in a vacuum I think most would consider him an average athletic talent.

[Coffeedrinker]

3 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

Oh goodness he was a treat to watch no doubt.  To think if him and Manning could have had another 3 years I'm pretty sure they'd have their own assault on some records. 

 

Yes his 3 cone was great but in a vacuum I think most would consider him an average athletic talent.

I still remember the play when I first thought Collie could be special.  He was running down the sideline, CB was right with him, he turned his head found the ball and before the CB could react, he jumped and spun 180 degrees in the air, snatched the ball at the highest point, tapped two feet down... TD in the corner of the endzone.

 

Obviously it was a perfectly thrown ball by Manning but Collie's reaction time and body control not only in the air but while running full speed was unreal. 

 

But I thought it was concussions that ended his career not the knee.  But either way it was a shame he was not able to have a full NFL career, I think he could have been special.

[chad72]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I still remember the play when I first thought Collie could be special.  He was running down the sideline, CB was right with him, he turned his head found the ball and before the CB could react, he jumped and spun 180 degrees in the air, snatched the ball at the highest point, tapped two feet down... TD in the corner of the endzone.

 

Obviously it was a perfectly thrown ball by Manning but Collie's reaction time and body control not only in the air but while running full speed was unreal. 

 

But I thought it was concussions that ended his career not the knee.  But either way it was a shame he was not able to have a full NFL career, I think he could have been special.

 

He still wanted to play after his concussions. He had stints with the Patriots and then with the CFL. He wasn't nearly as quick or productive, and the reason for that, IMO, started with the knee injury in the beginning of our Curtis Painter 2011 season.

[NorthernBlue]

On his interview with NFLN, TY also said the WR needs to understand which read he is in the play, and when he should get open. 

 

So like, if you’re the 3rd read, there’s no point in getting open right off the snap since the QB won’t even be looking at you, and by the time he does, the corner will have time to adjust, or the help from the safety will arrive.

 

Timing and precision is key

[GoColts8818]

46 minutes ago, dodsworth said:

What makes a WR have the knack to get open that had good speed such as

Jerry Rice and Reggie Wayne but Dorsett and others with high end speed

struggle to be efficient.

 

Alot of posters have stated that our receivers are not getting separation.

So what do our receivers 'except TY' have to do to get open?

 

 

For Reggie it was route running.  He made great cuts and would get separation that way.  For Rice he was just the greatest he could make catches open or not but he too was very good at route running.

[#12.]

Many things are involved.  Good OCs and QBs(changing the play) can scheme WRs open.  A good running game with play action opens things up.  

 

Then, of course, what is open for one QB is not open for another.  The Jets AFCCG was IMO the greatest game Manning ever played.  He seemingly didn't have a receiver with more than a foot of separation all day, yet threw for 400 yards.

 

Then there's Reggie and IMO the greatest game he ever played - the 2012 comeback vs.  the Packers.  What is open for one receiver isn't open for another.  Reggie didn't get major separation all game, but Luck knew if he could just get it near Reggie's catch radius, he would make a play, and consistently he did.

[Coffeedrinker]

27 minutes ago, NorthernBlue said:

On his interview with NFLN, TY also said the WR needs to understand which read he is in the play, and when he should get open. 

 

So like, if you’re the 3rd read, there’s no point in getting open right off the snap since the QB won’t even be looking at you, and by the time he does, the corner will have time to adjust, or the help from the safety will arrive.

 

Timing and precision is key

That is interesting and something, I had to admit, I had not thought of or considered.

Great point thanks for mentioning that.

[BProland85]

I think a lot of it has to do with the tell that the WR is giving off when running his route. If his head, eyes, or body are giving away where he is going, the DB can pick up on that and stay with them longer. 

[#12.]

From the WR's perspective, it's not just speed and cutting ability, it's a fluidity of motion.  Watch some film of Marvin early in his career.  He was running wide open 4 quarters a game, gliding effortlessly.

[Chrisaaron1023]

Dang..  i tried to upload a gif of Marvin Harrison cutting.. it was too big 

[krunk]

Not really worried.  We can scheme them open just like New England I believe.

[CR91]

im a big advocate of route running. Speed is nice when you're younger and you're just starting to learn how to run proper routes and how exactly to get open in the NFL, but its not until you understand the concept of running precise routes that you keep CBs on a swivel 

[Four2itus]

As Coffeedrinker alluded to, anticipation by the QB and having that ability to sense the WR's actions plays big. A half a second quicker decision on the release can make a difference on the WR looking like they get separation.

 

Getting separation for 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 seconds are often enhanced by the connection between the passer and catcher. 

 

Another factor that plays huge is what happens after the catch is made. Some...like Marvin, or the retired Steve Smith is their first step after the catch. 

[Luck 4 president]

My WR coach who played In the AFL and trained everyday in the offseason with Larry Fitzgerald taught it as a combination of a bunch of things. Acceleration, not speed, is probably the most important thing. Being able to change your speed at different times of the route is what deceives the DB. Route running, which is cutting and fluidity in your running is also very important. Spatial awareness, like knowing where the open pockets are in a zone defense are is important. Then speed. It’s a combination of those 4 things I would say but a good receiver could get by with 3 of them.

 

Besides TY, I see Chester Rodgers has good acceleration, speed and route running. Haven’t really seen him play enough to judge his awareness.

[dgambill]

A lot of factors go into it....and to be good at all of them is what makes the elite receivers. The old saying was to practice practice practice running your route tree so that every single route looked the same even as you broke off in one direction or another. Another thing is having great feet and hands....to get off press coverage is an art. You don't even have to be big but fast, great hand placement while moving your feet and positioning your body is key to get past a jam and get into your route quickly. As others have said having good speed is a big advantage but it doesn't have to be elite and then reading the defense to find the holes. In the end if you have a great qb/wr combo even when a route calls for a 10 yd in but the hole in the defense calls for an 8 yd in they both know what the other is going to do and anticipate and execute the play....it does you no good to beat your man just to put you into more coverage from someone else. Definitely a science...and the very best use every little trick and advantage they have to be the best at it.

[Chrisaaron1023]

10 minutes ago, krunk said:

Not really worried.  We can scheme them open just like New England I believe.

Thank you.  Wes, Edelmen, Gronk, Hogan aren't burners. But they are wiiide open. Scheme plays a big deal in this. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

26 minutes ago, #12. said:

From the WR's perspective, it's not just speed and cutting ability, it's a fluidity of motion.  Watch some film of Marvin early in his career.  He was running wide open 4 quarters a game, gliding effortlessly.

 

23 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Dang..  i tried to upload a gif of Marvin Harrison cutting.. it was too big 

 

Marvin Harrison is probably the best example for this.  Antonio Brown might be in the same stratosphere when it comes to running perfect routes.  And that's what it really boils down to:  Perfect Route Running.

 

Yeah Marvin had elite speed, but what got him separation was that he could run every single route and make them look exactly the same until he broke, and his cut was so quick that nobody could stay with him unless they anticipated his route correctly, or just broke the rules and mauled him downfield (Ty Law circa 2004...)

 

You add a QB with elite anticipation like Manning and you get records like 112 TDs from Manning-to-Harrison.

 

[GoColts00]

1 hour ago, #12. said:

From the WR's perspective, it's not just speed and cutting ability, it's a fluidity of motion.  Watch some film of Marvin early in his career.  He was running wide open 4 quarters a game, gliding effortlessly.

I was gonna bring up Marvin's name too. He had the ability to stop on a dime then accelerate. He had both quickness and top end speed + route running knowledge. I remember one of the new england players stating "you never know what route Harrison is going to run because he starts every route the exact same way".  

[GoColts00]

After watching the Ravens game I think the problem is mainly with Luck needing reps more so than WR separation. Peyton even stated that what AL needs the most in order to play as he used to is reps.

[DougDew]

As others have said, a receiver needs to get open at the right time.  No receiver stays open for very long, so knowing at what point in the route is the optimum time to get that separation is important.  Also, the QB and receivers need to be on the same page, knowing when to be open and when they will likley be covered.

[DougDew]

BTW, TY is not great at beating double coverage, so if he is the only real threat from the WR position, its not that hard for defenses to shut him down.  

[ProblChld32]

3 hours ago, dodsworth said:

What makes a WR have the knack to get open that had good speed such as

Jerry Rice and Reggie Wayne but Dorsett and others with high end speed

struggle to be efficient.

 

Alot of posters have stated that our receivers are not getting separation.

So what do our receivers 'except TY' have to do to get open?

 

 

 

It all begins with the "release" and Route Running savvy most of those elite players you mentioned such as a Jerry Rice, an Antonio Brown or a Reggie Wayne had great releases. If you watch them off the line of scrimmage they have great foot work and hand work to prevent DB's to press them off their route. Once they got into their route tree all the greats route running technique is what separate them. For instance Marvin Harrison his route running technique was impeccable and what made him one of the most dominant WR wasn't only his speed, it was his ability to make every route he ran look the same. It doesn't matter what route he ran he didn't have any tells in his routes they were all uniform. Most DB's that watch film can find small tells in what routes a WR might run from foot placement to how they plant their feet to their hip position, which gives them a slight upper hand come game day if they notice those tells mid game they can possibly break on a ball for a INT. When it came to Marvin Harrison he had no tells every route was ran with perfection.

[Freenyfan102]

Only good WR we have is TY Hilton and even then he disappears some game we do not have a true number 2 guy. Ryan Grant is not it. I can see next year draft drafting a WR in the first round and the rest be defense

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

2 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

My WR coach who played In the AFL and trained everyday in the offseason with Larry Fitzgerald taught it as a combination of a bunch of things. Acceleration, not speed, is probably the most important thing. Being able to change your speed at different times of the route is what deceives the DB. Route running, which is cutting and fluidity in your running is also very important. Spatial awareness, like knowing where the open pockets are in a zone defense are is important. Then speed. It’s a combination of those 4 things I would say but a good receiver could get by with 3 of them.

 

Besides TY, I see Chester Rodgers has good acceleration, speed and route running. Haven’t really seen him play enough to judge his awareness.

This is correct just to add, acceleration and or deceleration out of cuts while running routes is key to. IE changing direction and or stopping smoothly and quickly. Without giving away the route.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

To add being able to get off the line of scrimmage is big to. If DB's think they can manhandle you they will!!

[Surge89]

26 minutes ago, Freenyfan102 said:

Only good WR we have is TY Hilton and even then he disappears some game we do not have a true number 2 guy. Ryan Grant is not it. I can see next year draft drafting a WR in the first round and the rest be defense

 

 

Goodness I hope not.  If Ballard drafted a receiver in the first next year I'm done with him.

[deedub75]

Neither Rice nor Wayne were really known for speed. 

[tikyle]

Separation is basically broken down to route running.  Route running is primarily change of speed, getting in and out of breaks and acceleration.

 

Example: TY Hilton is faster than Antonio Brown.  Antonio Brown is quicker and he gets in and out of his breaks better than TY.  That is why AB is better.  Top end speed TY beats him but starting and stopping no one beats AB in football.

 

Example: Randy Moss had size, jumping and crazy top end speed.  You didn't see Randy Moss get "separation" much in the red zone.  He could out jump you but he wasn't shifty.  But you take another big guy like Tony Gonzalez who is not known for top end speed and he's constantly open in the red zone.  He had quick feet and could also disguise which direction he was going to break really well.  His in route, out route, post route and corner route all looked the same to the defender until it was too late.  Antonio Gates was the same way.

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

WRs getting open did not seem to be the problem

 

Agreed. I feel like this has come to be a convenient excuse, rather than acknowledging other issues.

 

First of all, it's really difficult to determine whether receivers were getting open or creating separation without watching the All 22, and I doubt many people who are complaining about lack of separation on Monday night have watched the All 22.

 

Second, for a while now, the offensive play calling and route combinations haven't been very good. Receivers weren't getting separation because they were being asked to run bad routes. The staff didn't do a good job of scheming guys open.

 

Third, the OL play has been bad, which undermines offensive efficiency in general. 

 

Fourth, Luck is prone to holding the ball too long. Sometimes he doesn't see open receivers (and I think a big part of that has been the design of the offense, but some of it is definitely on him), other times he expects to have a shot down the field and waits, and there are are other reasons. And what makes it worse is that he's really good at hanging in and making plays down the field, so the potential reward for holding the ball is something of a deterrent to getting rid of it quickly.

 

Fifth, the receivers aren't great route runners, or haven't been in the past. I feel like a big part of that has been coaching/development, part of it is scouting, and part of it is on the players themselves. But, to me, the route running isn't the primary issue, nor is a lack of separation. 

 

On the third down in the red zone, when Luck threw the pick, Ryan Grant ran a slant/rub shallow cross from the left side and had a clear step on his man. Then, for some reason, he stopped at the left hash. Luck hadn't left the pocket yet, and the middle of the field was wide open, but Luck wasn't looking left at all. If he threw the pass to Grant in stride, there's a chance for a first down. 

 

Instead, Luck stays right like it's a half field read, then scrambles right rather than stepping up (which he could have done) and looking to the middle. Then he forces a throw that made zero sense. 

 

There are two glaring issues here: 1) Grant's route started good, but he didn't cross the middle like I think he should have; and 2) Luck's read was bad (not gonna mention his decision, that goes without saying). If that was the design of the play, then it's flawed, but I doubt you install and call a play with a rub/slant on the backside if you don't  want the QB to even look that way. 

 

But instead of acknowledging that the QB and receiver weren't on the same page and have some wrinkles to iron out, we can just blame the receivers for not getting open. I'm against that.

 

Call good plays, make sure the QB/WR are executing them well, and then let's see how big of a problem lack of separation really is. I'm thinking it's way down the list right now.