Could Peyton be the G.O.A.T ?

[coltsfeva]

I recently saw Joe Montana and Tom Brady weigh in on 2 points about being the GOAT which I thought were valid:                   1.Using success alone for the QB GOAT is so subjective: the era, fellow players, defenses, coaches, competition, system, etc that allow for a QB to have success. That said, the individual talents: arm strength, vision, good decision making, scrambling ability, movement in the pocket, accuracy, football intelligence, etc are probably more objective measurements to assess a QB as an individual player.                       2. Tom Brady himself said he was the product of coaching and scheme.  Add to that, 2 of his rings were the product ( in part), to 2 terrible coaching decisions. I'm not saying Brady isn't great but I don't know if ANYONE definitively be the GOAT, when it comes to QBs. Do you ever wonder what Peyton would have done with Bellichick as his coach? He had a winning playoff record against Brady and won almost 5 times as many games as Brady, when his defenses were in the bottom half of the league. Give Brady his due, he is one of the greatest to ever play. But the same could be said for Montana, Elway. Marino, Otto Graham, Johnny U, Bart Star and Peyton. Maybe one day, we will see Lucks name mentioned. So despite the "hands down" comment from Gronkowski after the Super Bowl, and what many talking heads and fans believe, I'll agree with Brady and Montana and see the whole argument as subjective. All things being equal, I'd take Peyton over anybody, if I was starting a franchise.

[bababooey]

Brady says he's not and he's never been known to lie so I believe him when he says he isn't.

[gspdx]

The whole argument is subjective, but I do feel like if Peyton had been the Pats QB he would have had a similar career as Tom Brady.  

 

When you look at the talent and leadership abilities of these two guys, it's pretty amazing.

[21isSuperman]

12 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Brady says he's not and he's never been known to lie so I believe him when he says he isn't.

Except for that one little thing....

[2006Coltsbestever]

It's all subjective. He is definitely in the Convo with guys like Brady, Montana, and Unitas IMO. So much goes into these rankings/lists like not only SB Rings, but League MVP's, Overall Stats, what type of era the QB played in are all important criteria to me anyway, etc.. Peyton still is the all-time leader in TD's and Yards thrown + he has won 5 League MVP's = the most of any player in NFL History. People say he only has 2 Rings, having 2 Rings isn't a bad thing by the way and he won with 2 different teams. No QB has ever done that either. Most people in the media will say Brady because most people just look at Rings which I understand because at the end of the day winning the big one is huge. 

[Colts_Fan12]

36 minutes ago, gspdx said:

The whole argument is subjective, but I do feel like if Peyton had been the Pats QB he would have had a similar career as Tom Brady.  

 

When you look at the talent and leadership abilities of these two guys, it's pretty amazing.

If Peyton had toms teams he would have won way more rings then any player ever 

[bababooey]

Just now, Colts_Fan12 said:

If Peyton had toms teams he would have won way more rings then any player ever 

He wouldn't lose to his mouth breathing * brother twice

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, bababooey said:

He wouldn't lose to his mouth breathing * brother twice

Yeah he would have stomped them both games lol 

[coltsfan77]

I personally think all any player can hope for is to be in the discussion of "goat"! Truth be known, most players realize everyone plays under different circumstances. Coaching, rules, TEAM in general. I always thought Peyton just wanted to be in the conversation, that it is a huge success in it self.

[NannyMcafee]

11 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

If Peyton had toms teams he would have won way more rings then any player ever 

 

Winning the SB with 2 different teams is a much larger scale than the same system your whole career. But I'll always find reasons to say Peyton is the better. 

[DaColts85]

If you go off rings alone than Terry Bradshaw and Montana are on the same scale....NO WAY!!

[braveheartcolt]

59 minutes ago, gspdx said:

The whole argument is subjective, but I do feel like if Peyton had been the Pats QB he would have had a similar career as Tom Brady.  

 

When you look at the talent and leadership abilities of these two guys, it's pretty amazing.

Jamarcus Russell would have won a SB with the Pats.....

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

16 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

If you go off rings alone than Terry Bradshaw and Montana are on the same scale....NO WAY!!

True but Bradshaw isn't in the convo because his Stats were Average. If I am not mistaken for his career he had 212 TD's and 210 INT's, that is very Average. Brady and Montana both have put up great numbers to go along with their SB wins, so has Peyton.

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

Jamarcus Russell would have won a SB with the Pats.....

 

I wouldn't go that far with it . Perhaps Ryan Leaf's life would've been different as well had he had BB as Coach and mentor.

[DaColts85]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

True but Bradshaw isn't in the convo because his Stats were Average. If I am not mistaken for his career he had 212 TD's and 210 INT's, that is very Average. Brady and Montana both have put up great numbers to go along with their SB wins, so has Peyton.

I do not disagree but with this argument of the GOAT it always comes down to rings.  That was the portion I was hitting on.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, DaColts85 said:

I do not disagree but with this argument of the GOAT it always comes down to rings.  That was the portion I was hitting on.  

Yeah I got your point and it's a great one. Bradshaw is the pure definition why Rings aren't the only factor in ranking these QB's. I would take Marino over Bradshaw all-time.

[DaColts85]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah I got your point and it's a great one. Bradshaw is the pure definition why Rings aren't the only factor in ranking these QB's. I would take Marino over Bradshaw all-time.

Completely agree.  Bradshaw isn't even top-10 all time IMO.  It just helps prove the point that rings help but are not a sole factor.  Some QB's just had great situations with systems and players around them.  I would say Jim Kelly was pretty solid and he was 0-4 in the big game.  Marino of course is among the tops.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

Completely agree.  Bradshaw isn't even top-10 all time IMO.  It just helps prove the point that rings help but are not a sole factor.  Some QB's just had great situations with systems and players around them.  I would say Jim Kelly was pretty solid and he was 0-4 in the big game.  Marino of course is among the tops.

Bradshaw if Top 10 is right on the cusp that is for sure. Yeah it's ashame Jim Kelly never won a Ring, losing 4 straight SB's had to be a nightmare for Bills fans. That is torture for a fan. Imagine going to 4 SB parties in a row and have your Bills gear on and they lose big in all of them except in one of them. The close one they lost was on a missed FG. I would just quit watching Football at that point. Marino's 1984 Dolphins team was outstanding but they ran into Montana's 1984 team unfortunately.

[DaColts85]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Bradshaw if Top 10 is right on the cusp that is for sure. Yeah it's ashame Jim Kelly never won a Ring, losing 4 straight SB's had to be a nightmare for Bills fans. That is torture for a fan. Imagine going to 4 SB parties in a row and have your Bills gear on and they lose big in all of them except in one of them. The close one they lost was on a missed FG. I would just quit watching Football at that point. Marino's 1984 Dolphins team was outstanding but they ran into Montana's 1984 team unfortunately.

I have two buddies who are Bills fans and I have always felt bad for them.  4 straight and you lose all 4.  That is very hard to do.  If that were the Colts I would feel like it was me after 4 straight...maybe stop wearing the gear one year haha.

[crazycolt1]

Winning rings is all about teams, not QBs. This subject can be talked about for ever and only opinion can be said.

This thread has been brought up so many times it gets stale even reading about it.

[MackAttack]

1 hour ago, coltsfeva said:

I recently saw Joe Montana and Tom Brady weigh in on 2 points about being the GOAT which I thought were valid:                   1.Using success alone for the QB GOAT is so subjective: the era, fellow players, defenses, coaches, competition, system, etc that allow for a QB to have success. That said, the individual talents: arm strength, vision, good decision making, scrambling ability, movement in the pocket, accuracy, football intelligence, etc are probably more objective measurements to assess a QB as an individual player.                       2. Tom Brady himself said he was the product of coaching and scheme.  Add to that, 2 of his rings were the product ( in part), to 2 terrible coaching decisions. I'm not saying Brady isn't great but I don't know if ANYONE definitively be the GOAT, when it comes to QBs. Do you ever wonder what Peyton would have done with Bellichick as his coach? He had a winning playoff record against Brady and won almost 5 times as many games as Brady, when his defenses were in the bottom half of the league. Give Brady his due, he is one of the greatest to ever play. But the same could be said for Montana, Elway. Marino, Otto Graham, Johnny U, Bart Star and Peyton. Maybe one day, we will see Lucks name mentioned. So despite the "hands down" comment from Gronkowski after the Super Bowl, and what many talking heads and fans believe, I'll agree with Brady and Montana and see the whole argument as subjective. All things being equal, I'd take Peyton over anybody, if I was starting a franchise.

Peyton had about 3 different head coaches when he was a colt. He won 14 games and went to the super bowl with Jim Caldwell at the helm. Peyton was the coach, he was the team. The 2006 afc championship says it all. The colts were down to the patriots 21-3 I think at halftime the colts defense was getting destroyed but Peyton came out and pretty much did everything and we won that game. He is the goat , its not that hard to understand

[NannyMcafee]

10 minutes ago, Zalazar Elijahh said:

Peyton had about 3 different head coaches when he was a colt. He won 14 games and went to the super bowl with Jim Caldwell at the helm. Peyton was the coach, he was the team. The 2006 afc championship says it all. The colts were down to the patriots 21-3 I think at halftime the colts defense was getting destroyed but Peyton came out and pretty much did everything and we won that game. He is the goat , its not that hard to understand

 

Peyton is the MVPAT. Most Valuable Player of All Time. 

[Colts_Fan12]

1 hour ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Winning the SB with 2 different teams is a much larger scale than the same system your whole career. But I'll always find reasons to say Peyton is the better. 

Me too lol 

[shasta519]

I have always considered "Greatest" and "Best" to be two different (but similar) things.

 

"Greatest" encompasses the career...personal/team achievements, win-loss records, stats, etc. Manning is certainly in this conversation. Brady has the best regular season record, playoff record (of QBs with 10+ playoff games) and the most Super Bowl starts and wins (though the last two were highly controversial). But since a good part of this is tainted by Spygate...it's not as open and shut as it would seem.

 

"Best" encompasses ability and talent. Manning belongs in this conversation as well...but the title belongs to Aaron Rodgers. He has the best arm I have seen...effortless and incredibly accurate..and can throw on the run better than I have ever seen. It sounds cliche...but he can actually can make every throw. He also has great pocket presence and above average mobility (in and outside of the pocket). Rodgers is the best QB to ever play the game (to date)...and I can only imagine what a better QB would look like.

 

 

[ReMeDy]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

Brady says he's not and he's never been known to lie so I believe him when he says he isn't.

 

Brady is such a suck-up. He's saying he's not the G.O.A.T. to show humility. At this point I'd rather he just come out and say, "Duh, of course I'm the greatest." He could win another five more Superbowls and be like, "Nah, I'm awful. On to the next game."

[bababooey]

18 minutes ago, ReMeDy said:

 

Brady is such a suck-up. He's saying he's not the G.O.A.T. to show humility. At this point I'd rather he just come out and say, "Duh, of course I'm the greatest." He could win another five more Superbowls and be like, "Nah, I'm awful. On to the next game."

Should have pulled a Jeter and said he wouldn't change places with anyone in the past or playing now.

[RockThatBlue]

4 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

If Peyton had toms teams he would have won way more rings then any player ever 

If he had his coach too.

[Colts_Fan12]

1 minute ago, RockThatBlue said:

If he had his coach too.

Peyton don't need Bill that's why he's better then tom imo he took jim Caldwell to the SB and won one with Gary kubiack

[RockThatBlue]

2 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Peyton don't need Bill that's why he's better then tom imo he took jim Caldwell to the SB and won one with Gary kubiack

True, but Peyton would have probably just as many rings with Belichick that Tom does.

[Colts_Fan12]

Just now, RockThatBlue said:

True, but Peyton would have probably just as many rings with Belichick that Tom does.

He would have had more and would have owned the NFL with Bill 

[backshoulderfade]

No.

[The Peytonator]

I'm biased, but on an individual level I would put Peyton at #1. Super Bowl wins are a bogus way of rating QBs. One of Peyton's SB wins came during his worst year as a professional. He was honestly a bottom 5 QB in 2016, yet he won a SB. Peyton was consistently taking sub par teams to the playoffs, where they would often be bounced by better teams, with better coaches, and better defenses. Without Peyton, Indy would have been perennial top-10 drafters. 

 

I wish that we had built teams the way Denver did for him. I would have much rather put an emphasis on defense with our first round picks, as we did this year and I hope to see Ballard continue to do. When you have a generational QB, he will make his receivers better. Peyton was regularly getting the same production out of Blair White, Austin Collie, and Pierre Garcon, as he did out of first rounders like Anthony Gonzalez and as unpopular as it may be to say it, Reggie Wayne. I do believe that Peyton had some say in how Polian drafted, and that's why we were consistently drafting offensive skill players in the first round. Believing that, I can't fault Polian entirely for the drafting, but I can't help but wonder what the team would have looked like if we'd drafted guys like Eric Weddle over Gonzo, or Demeco Ryans over Addai, or Nnamdi Asomugha over Clark. 

 

Beyond the talent though, even the scheme we'd use on defense was infuriating. In Denver, they would press receivers and actually contest throws. The Colts defense would elect to give up 7 yard throws and then make the tackle. Why would a team with the best QB ever play such soft, bend don't break defense? Ron Meeks was the worst. It was the equivalent of having a relatively suspect offensive line, and forcing your QB to take 7-step drops 220 times, while taking 3-step drops a mere 90 times. 

 

Anyway, bottom line is, Peyton is the GOAT. With a better coaching staff and smarter usage of draft picks, he would have retired earlier because he got bored with winning Super Bowls. 

[Colts_Fan12]

16 minutes ago, backshoulderfade said:

No.

More like yes 

[Colts_Fan12]

30 minutes ago, The Peytonator said:

I'm biased, but on an individual level I would put Peyton at #1. Super Bowl wins are a bogus way of rating QBs. One of Peyton's SB wins came during his worst year as a professional. He was honestly a bottom 5 QB in 2016, yet he won a SB. Peyton was consistently taking sub par teams to the playoffs, where they would often be bounced by better teams, with better coaches, and better defenses. Without Peyton, Indy would have been perennial top-10 drafters. 

 

I wish that we had built teams the way Denver did for him. I would have much rather put an emphasis on defense with our first round picks, as we did this year and I hope to see Ballard continue to do. When you have a generational QB, he will make his receivers better. Peyton was regularly getting the same production out of Blair White, Austin Collie, and Pierre Garcon, as he did out of first rounders like Anthony Gonzalez and as unpopular as it may be to say it, Reggie Wayne. I do believe that Peyton had some say in how Polian drafted, and that's why we were consistently drafting offensive skill players in the first round. Believing that, I can't fault Polian entirely for the drafting, but I can't help but wonder what the team would have looked like if we'd drafted guys like Eric Weddle over Gonzo, or Demeco Ryans over Addai, or Nnamdi Asomugha over Clark. 

 

Beyond the talent though, even the scheme we'd use on defense was infuriating. In Denver, they would press receivers and actually contest throws. The Colts defense would elect to give up 7 yard throws and then make the tackle. Why would a team with the best QB ever play such soft, bend don't break defense? Ron Meeks was the worst. It was the equivalent of having a relatively suspect offensive line, and forcing your QB to take 7-step drops 220 times, while taking 3-step drops a mere 90 times. 

 

Anyway, bottom line is, Peyton is the GOAT. With a better coaching staff and smarter usage of draft picks, he would have retired earlier because he got bored with winning Super Bowls. 

Couldn't agree with you more my friend excellent post!!!

[UKColt13]

He's top 3 imo, but his lack of postseason success keeps him behind Brady and Montana in that order.

[BOTT]

Possibly.

 

 If I were able to chose the coaches, I still might take Elway and Marino over anyone else.  Marino could complete all these modern short routes in his sleep.

[TheRustonRifle#7]

I will get assailed but I believe Johnny U was.  He did it in an era when passing wasn't the vogue and the rules didn't protect the Wide Receivers.  Plus he called his own plays....

[DalTXColtsFan]

Brady had 4 TDs against 0 picks in the SUPER BOWL against the #1 defense in the league on a day his team needed ALL 4 OF THEM to win. I don't care who your coach is, I don't care who the other players on your team are, that's UNHEARD OF.

 

And then in this latest game to keep his composure and lead his team on that epic, historic comeback.

 

OH - and he was the QB of a team that also won 3 other Super Bowls and countless playoff games.

 

Whose resume even comes close to that?

[2006Coltsbestever]

26 minutes ago, DalTXColtsFan said:

Brady had 4 TDs against 0 picks in the SUPER BOWL against the #1 defense in the league on a day his team needed ALL 4 OF THEM to win. I don't care who your coach is, I don't care who the other players on your team are, that's UNHEARD OF.

 

And then in this latest game to keep his composure and lead his team on that epic, historic comeback.

 

OH - and he was the QB of a team that also won 3 other Super Bowls and countless playoff games.

 

Whose resume even comes close to that?

Peyton has 5 League MVP's to Brady's 2 and Peyton holds records for most TD's and Yards thrown. Peyton also has the record for most TD's and Yards in 1 season as well. I would say his resume is just as great. Yeah Brady is 5-2 in Rings but Peyton went to the SB with 4 different Coaches and won it with 2 different teams which I don't believe Brady could ever do. Only 12 QB's have won 2 or more SB's and Peyton is one of them. So Peyton is even in the Elite regarding that as well as much people love to bash his postseason success. When you win a SB with Gary Kubiak as your HeadCoach that is bragging rights!

[Synthetic]

 

Absolutely not. The "GOAT" argument is subjective and really boils down to fan opinions. Of course Colts fans would pick Manning. It's no different than 49er fans picking Joe Montana. A Packers fan is going to tell you Brett Favre, and Saints fans will tell you Drew Brees etc etc. 

 

One could easily make an argument for Dan Marino being the GOAT, but is going to immediately be shot down by the fact he never won the big one. 

 

Another problem with the GOAT arguments is that they tend to gloss over previous eras with older quarterbacks when the game favored defense a lot more. This is why it's really unfair to judge a guy like Terry Bradshaw or Kenny Stabler just by looking at their TD/INT ratio numbers. Interceptions were far more common back then and by rule, QB's weren't allowed to throw the ball out of bounds like they've been doing since the mid 80's. (IMO Terry Bradshaw don't get enough credit these days for being a great QB). 

 

It's all subjective. But when it comes down to popular opinion, Tom Brady easily gets it now since he has 5 rings, and just getting to the Super Bowl 7 times is impressive in itself. I'll take Brady over Manning any day of the week. One of them throws the game winning TD to Tracy Porter, the other managed to actually overcome a horrible pick six and lead an amazing comeback in the SB. Brady also deserves credit for getting there without having All Pro, star studded teams. Those Colts teams were about as loaded as the 90's Bills with great play makers, it's not even fair to really compare them. 

 

Manning's pathetic playoff record speaks for itself. NINE times he went out in the first round, and count how many times those were with super loaded Colts teams with home field advantage. And in most of those playoff loses, his team couldn't even score 20 points. What's even worse, his team usually was the favorite in these games. Remember that SB where he only put 8 points on the board? Or 17 points against the Saints? 

 

Don't worry though...Aaron Rodgers is putting together a pretty pathetic playoff record too that could rival Manning's in the near future (it already is that bad). Might not surpass the 9 times career one and dones record Manning has, but Rodgers certainly has one thing over him, and that is getting blown out really bad in lost of those playoff losses. In defense of Manning, at least most of those playoff loses are close, whereas Rodgers are really bad blow outs. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

 When you win a SB with Gary Kubiak as your HeadCoach that is bragging rights!

 

Let's not kid ourselves here; Manning wasn't a major factor on that Broncos team. He played the exact same role as Trent Dilfer with the 2000 Ravens. In the SB, Denver converted just one third down conversion all day. They posted the worst offensive stats of a SB winning team in history, and quite possibly would've lost if Cam Newton wasn't such a baby and rolled over and gave up in that game. 

 

Peyton was just there for the ride and so was Kubiak behind a defense built by John Fox and coached by Wade Philips that year. They would've won it all with Brock starting or any other QB with the way that defense played. 

 

Super Bowl wins are team accomplishments, not individual player accomplishments, and that 2015 Broncos team is a pretty fine example of that.