Werner

[21isSuperman]

I should go back to 2012 and dig up all the threads like this about Jerry Hughes.

Do you think that possibly is due to an inability of the coaching staff to utilize their talents?  Hughes was doing nothing here, but he goes to Buffalo and becomes a really good pass rusher.  Dwight Freeney did almost nothing in 2012 for us, but then went to San Diego and was one of PFF's highest ranked OLBs before he got hurt.  Perhaps the same thing is happening with Werner where the coaches aren't able to maximize his talents in our defense?

[Defjamz26]

before we brand Grigson a bad drafter let's look at his draft classes, the 2012 draft looked really good. 2013 has been a bust for the most part. 2014 was small but has been solid other than Richardson who was a trade not a draft pick. 2015's class has been really good based on early reviews. It looks more to me that Grigson had a bad draft class and a bad trade. His other three classes have been good. His free agent signings have been a mixed bag but I don't think his drafting has been as bad as we make it out to be at times.

You're jumping the gun. I never said he was a bad drafter. But it's looking like he completely blew 2 first round picks. And it's fine if you find depth in later rounds, but you can only blow so many 1st round draft picks. Plenty of GMs get let go for that very reason.

[CanuckColt]

They are gonna leave Werner back there as Waldo's backup...one more year.

[will426]

Do you think that possibly is due to an inability of the coaching staff to utilize their talents? Hughes was doing nothing here, but he goes to Buffalo and becomes a really good pass rusher. Dwight Freeney did almost nothing in 2012 for us, but then went to San Diego and was one of PFF's highest ranked OLBs before he got hurt. Perhaps the same thing is happening with Werner where the coaches aren't able to maximize his talents in our defense?

Hughes last season with us was actually his best and it was also his first year in a 3-4 and we still let him go then he went to buff and became a star in the 3-4 and freeney became a rotational player once he went to the Chargers they knew his weaknesses in the run game because you know they ran at him themselves lol

[NewColtsFan]

I'm just confused in who honestly thought this guy was a top prospect. Which media head thought this was acceptable?

 

Colts Legacy has the right answer.

 

It just hasn't worked out so far.

[Freenyfan102]

I have to agree we all thought that jerry Hughes sucked now look at him all I can day blame is on the coaching

[Superman]

Do you think that possibly is due to an inability of the coaching staff to utilize their talents?  Hughes was doing nothing here, but he goes to Buffalo and becomes a really good pass rusher.  Dwight Freeney did almost nothing in 2012 for us, but then went to San Diego and was one of PFF's highest ranked OLBs before he got hurt.  Perhaps the same thing is happening with Werner where the coaches aren't able to maximize his talents in our defense?

 

Not really. I think there were other issues with Hughes. Just a hunch, but his attitude wasn't great, and he's seemed to have a beef with the Colts since he was traded. I get the feeling he didn't want to be here anymore, and/or they were done with him, and instead of cutting him, they traded him. Looks like a bad trade on the surface, but if there was something else going on...

 

With Werner, he's just not a very good pass rusher. He doesn't have the bend or the burst. It is what it is. That doesn't make him a bad player altogether. That's why they moved him to Sam, full time, where his skill set is more suited. To me, that's the fix. He's a Sam, not a Rush. Let's see how it goes. It hasn't been bad in preseason, until last night.

 

As for his athletic profile, he's slightly more athletic than Paul Kruger. Kruger was a 2nd round pick who did NOTHING his first two seasons. Did the Ravens misuse him? He was better in Year 3, then in Year 4, he had a strong second half and got a $40m contract. Werner is just going into Year 3. Cut him???

 

Kruger

Year 1: 0 sacks, 1 QB hit, 4 QB hurries, 5 tackles, 2 batted passes

Year 2: 1 sack, 3 QB hits, 10 QB hurries, 1 tackle, 3 batted passes

Year 3: 7 sacks, 4 QB hits, 18 QB hurries, 14 tackles, 1 batted pass

Year 4: 15 sacks, 17 QB hits, 43 QB hurries, 30 tackes, 2 batted passes

 

Werner

Year 1: 3 sacks, 0 QB hits, 12 QB hurries, 14 tackles, 2 batted passes

Year 2: 5 sacks, 4 QB hits, 18 QB hurries, 37 tackes, 2 batted passes

 

(These sack numbers include every time the rusher got either a solo or a half sack. Same for tackles.)

 

Bad draft pick, yeah, we get it. That doesn't mean he can't play Sam. And maybe if we wait more than two years, we'll get to see him get better, which sometimes happens with young edge players in the NFL.

[Superman]

Hughes last season with us was actually his best and it was also his first year in a 3-4 and we still let him go then he went to buff and became a star in the 3-4 and freeney became a rotational player once he went to the Chargers they knew his weaknesses in the run game because you know they ran at him themselves lol

 

Freeney was hurt in 2012, and limited all season. And trying to learn a new position at 32, being asked to actually be a run defender for the first time in his career, etc. I don't put that on the coaching.

 

If I had my way in 2012, we would have cut Freeney, not paid him $14m.

[Superman]

I've never been a fan of his, and even though his salary is guaranteed (as pointed out to me by Supes) I won't shed a tear if he is let go and a better player in any capacity fills the roster spot.

 

Just want to clarify, my objection to cutting him has nothing to do with his contract. Eating $2m isn't a big issue. You'd rather not, but oh well. Especially, if you expect to get a better player in that roster spot. I don't know how realistic that is at this point of the season, but if Werner has to go to improve the quality of the roster, that's fine. 

 

I just don't think he's been as bad as people are claiming. 

[dgambill]

I'm fine with running the year with him as a backup. I don't think we have a better option at a backup OLB at this point as it is. I imagine though that they will cut him next year if he doesn't show us something. We've cut others so nothing makes him special other than the fact he was a 1st rounder. He has had a lot of injuries so if he is healthy and still not showing what we need then we will move on. He has been a dissapointment...no doubt about that...but that doesn't mean he has no value. We thought Donald Brown was a dissappointment too over-drafted but he helped the team. So we drafted him too high...doesn't matter if he isn't going to be a superstar...as long as he helps the team then you keep him. That said we may not be able to afford to keep this guy next year if we can't get anything out of him. It hurts to miss on a first rd guy but Seattle has a whole defense of stars with later rd guys so you can win without hitting on your first pick. That said Grigson got a gimmie with Luck....took Fleener with the what is essentially another first rd pick, drafted Werner, traded for Trent, and drafted Dorsett so he has a very mixed bag of results there. Luckily he has had some very good picks later in the draft to make up but I would say he isn't free and clear of any scrutiny.

[Chucklez]

I'd be happy if we cut Werner now to keep Ballard, even if he is injured for more than half the season.... Ballard for half a season is worth more than Werner for a whole season....

[RockThatBlue]

I have to agree we all thought that jerry Hughes sucked now look at him all I can day blame is on the coaching

Jerry Hughes did suck in Indy. Not sure why you blame the coaches but OK...

And for Gods sake fix your screen name. Its "freeney" not freeny.

[12dalegend]

I'm sure Bluefire4 can speak for himself. But I don't think he meant Newsome should be cut. I think he is just disappointed that Newsome hasn't shown in the preseason of taking the next step from a statistically good rookie season.

Yes put him in with the starters and youʻll see improvement...Newsome was a rookie last year and wonʻt be cut heʻs still learning... but Werner should be better by now and should be cut before Newsome is

[Jackie Daytona]

Kruger was buried behind an a lot of good players in Balt. his first couple of years was he not?

[Superman]

Kruger was buried behind an a lot of good players in Balt. his first couple of years was he not?

 

Suggs and Jarrett Johnson. He still played, and wasn't productive.

 

PFF has a weighted stat called Pass Rush Productivity. It basically calculates a player's snaps per pressure, with more weight given to sacks. It's not a raw stat, but it's close, and is probably a better comparison because it's adjusted for total snaps played. In Kruger's first two years, his PRP was 3.2 and 5.0. Werner's was 6.9 and 5.5. 

[will426]

Freeney was hurt in 2012, and limited all season. And trying to learn a new position at 32, being asked to actually be a run defender for the first time in his career, etc. I don't put that on the coaching.

If I had my way in 2012, we would have cut Freeney, not paid him $14m.

Oh I wasn't defending freeneys time here I was trying to correct him when he pretty much said that everyone does better when they leave us in which freeney was a full time player with us and could be wore down with the run but when he went to the Chargers he became a threat because he was rotated in to rush the passer

[Superman]

Oh I wasn't defending freeneys time here I was trying to correct him when he pretty much said that everyone does better when they leave us in which freeney was a full time player with us and could be wore down with the run but when he went to the Chargers he became a threat because he was rotated in to rush the passer

 

I was just chiming in. I agree with you.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Werner was a top 5 prospect for awhile there. We really don't know what the Colts board was. He easily could have been their highest rated player left. We know and they know now that they were wrong but 90% of the draft consists of people being wrong.

This is true!

[COLTS449]

Should of picked Rhodes.

[Superman]

Should of picked Rhodes.

 

Imagine this: Draft Rhodes, keep Jerry Hughes.

[UKColt13]

He should not be kept. Completely ineffective even against backup olinemen

[#12.]

Sunken cost.

The sooner you cut ties, the sooner people forget about it. Learn from Richardson.

[SOMDColtsfan]

I still say try him at ILB and if that failed cut him..

[Gavin]

Imagine this: Draft Rhodes, keep Jerry Hughes.

Im just over it. I find it next to impossible to believe Hughes was traded because Grigson did not see the talent...It had to be Hughes attitude because one would had to have been blind not to see the talent. As to Werner himself while I fully support picking up Cole based on his talent this obviously means less snaps for Werner barring injuries to Cole or Mathis and Walden.....maybe even Newsome.....Which stunts Werners on field growth and even Newsomes. There is no substitute for learning by hands on experience

[Superman]

Im just over it. I find it next to impossible to believe Hughes was traded because Grigson did not see the talent...It had to be Hughes attitude because one would had to have been blind not to see the talent. As to Werner himself while I fully support picking up Cole based on his talent this obviously means less snaps for Werner barring injuries to Cole or Mathis and Walden.....maybe even Newsome.....Which stunts Werners on field growth and even Newsomes. There is no substitute for learning by hands on experience

 

I agree about Hughes, and I'm over it. Just sayin...

 

As for Werner and Newsome, I said before the free agency and the draft, just upgrade the roster. If people get squeezed off the field because they aren't good enough, oh well. Good, talented players will force their way onto the field eventually. If Newsome and Werner desrve reps, they'll get them. In the meantime, we have a capable player ahead of them in Cole, and I'm fine with that.

 

However, on Cole, I don't see the Rush capability out of him that I was expecting. I hope Mathis can get up to speed in short order...

[Gavin]

I agree about Hughes, and I'm over it. Just sayin...

 

As for Werner and Newsome, I said before the free agency and the draft, just upgrade the roster. If people get squeezed off the field because they aren't good enough, oh well. Good, talented players will force their way onto the field eventually. If Newsome and Werner desrve reps, they'll get them. In the meantime, we have a capable player ahead of them in Cole, and I'm fine with that.

 

However, on Cole, I don't see the Rush capability out of him that I was expecting. I hope Mathis can get up to speed in short order...

As to Coles rush capability...I think that will be seen this season. He barely played enough snaps to break a sweat in any preseason games let alone get a feel for how his man was playing him. I don't see him being that pass rusher that will get you sack numbers in the teens like Mathis has been capable of but I think we can get 8 sacks out him at Sam as well as rush linebacker if Mathis is absent for a prolonged period of time. But no doubt we need Mathis

[SDakColts]

With a lot of other teams giving up on highly drafted players this is the year for us to part ways with Werner. I hate to say it as I was pulling for him to make a difference and produce, but it isn't there.

[Gavin]

With a lot of other teams giving up on highly drafted players this is the year for us to part ways with Werner. I hate to say it as I was pulling for him to make a difference and produce, but it isn't there.

What other teams do with there draft picks should have no bearing on what we do with ours unless Werner has an injury that he wont be recovering from anytime soon or will have lasting affects and all indications are he don't. He was signed to 4 years rookie contract, I think coaching staff owe it to themselves to stick with that. Keep in mind last year was the first year Learner starter all but 1 game and got a lot of snaps (747)....His rookie year in 2013 I believe he had a lot less but cant find exact number

[SDakColts]

What other teams do with there draft picks should have no bearing on what we do with ours unless Werner has an injury that he wont be recovering from anytime soon or will have lasting affects and all indications are he don't. He was signed to 4 years rookie contract, I think coaching staff owe it to themselves to stick with that

I understand that we shouldn't do what other teams do, I am just saying with other teams doing it as well, it won't blow up into a huge media storm that we released a 1st rounder. What has Werner shown you this preseason to justify him taking up a roster spot when we could potentially find someone to contribute that is all I am saying.

[bap1331]

I have a badddd feeling patriots will pick him up. And he will get like 10 sacks on luck. Lol...put him on the practice squad.

[BOTT]

Hey, remember Marshawn Lynch.......

/s

[ricker182]

Call me crazy but I still think he has potential.

[BOTT]

Pretty much everyone did. What's confusing? He was a stud in college. Scouting and the draft isn't exactly a perfected science.

He produced, but the tape wasnt exactly awe inspiring. Kinda reminded me of watching tape on Jarvis Jones, but worse. Just no juice.

[Gavin]

What other teams do with there draft picks should have no bearing on what we do with ours unless Werner has an injury that he wont be recovering from anytime soon or will have lasting affects and all indications are he don't. He was signed to 4 years rookie contract, I think coaching staff owe it to themselves to stick with that. Keep in mind last year was the first year Learner starter all but 1 game and got a lot of snaps (747)....His rookie year in 2013 I believe he had a lot less but cant find exact number

Learner----->Werner

[ColtsLegacy]

He produced, but the tape wasnt exactly awe inspiring. Kinda reminded me of watching tape on Jarvis Jones, but worse. Just no juice.

 

Jarvis Jones, another top prospect drafted in the 1st. I watched nearly every game of Werner's in college. He was a stud.

[BOTT]

Jarvis Jones, another top prospect drafted in the 1st. I watched nearly every game of Werner's in college. He was a stud.

Jones was a stud in college too, but they both looked slow and unathletic for a NFL pass rusher.

[ColtsLegacy]

Jones was a stud in college too, but they both looked slow and unathletic for a NFL pass rusher.

Obviously, the point is they were nearly universally thought of as first round talent at the time.

[BOTT]

Obviously, the point is they were nearly universally thought of as first round talent at the time.

Well yeah, but I thought that based on their college tape. I'm wrong 90% of the time, but I get one right every once in awhile.

[NewColtsFan]

I have a badddd feeling patriots will pick him up. And he will get like 10 sacks on luck. Lol...put him on the practice squad.

 

 

                          

[masterlock]

Do you think that possibly is due to an inability of the coaching staff to utilize their talents?  Hughes was doing nothing here, but he goes to Buffalo and becomes a really good pass rusher.  Dwight Freeney did almost nothing in 2012 for us, but then went to San Diego and was one of PFF's highest ranked OLBs before he got hurt.  Perhaps the same thing is happening with Werner where the coaches aren't able to maximize his talents in our defense?

I'm thinking the position coaches are a big reason the players aren't excelling. Might be time to take a closer look at them if this season turns out to be another disappointment--which I hope it does not.