Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[krunk]

I want those Clam Chowda eatin son of a guns to come in to Indy with their best squad.  I'm sorry but I'm ready to rumble!

I don't want any room for excuses on either side.  Let's do this thing! 2015 is a new year baby

[dw49]

Yes, it's a something to put on notice, but in no way did it impact the game.

If another team did the same crime, it would get no where the same attention this case has.

 

 

If they deflated footballs in the Colt game , could they have done so in the previous game vs Balt ? If your answer is yes , is your answer yes that it could have effected that game ? If that answer is also yes , is your answer to the next question too ? That being if the Pats didn't deflate footballs , is it possible another team would have won last year's SB ?

[DougDew]

WOW!  The suspension stands?

 

Here I thought for sure that after all of the Brady/Pats whining, the suspension would be increased to the 8 games it deserves, and the possibility of relocating the team to LA due to its habitual cheating and the unrepentant and league-embarrasing support by a blind fan base would increase.

 

They got lucky that it merely stands at 4 games.

[crazycolt1]

Best post of the day! It really puts things into perspective....on so many levels. Makes one shake their head at the Patriots, Brady, and the league.

It all could have been avoided had Brady cooperated. But it is Brady who has taken this to this extreme. No one to point a finger at except Brady.

[dgambill]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/07/28/0ap3000000504265.pdf

 

From Goodell's summary today: 

"I entered into the appeal process open to reevaluating my assessment of Mr. Brady's conduct and the associated discipline. Especially in light of the new evidence introduced at the hearing -- evidence demonstrating that he arranged for the destruction of potentially relevant evidence that had been specifically requested by the investigators -- my findings and conclusions have not changed in a manner that would benefit Mr. Brady.

 

...I find that, with respect to the game balls used in the AFC Championship Game and the subsequent investigation, Mr. Brady engaged in conduct detrimental to the integrity of, and public confidence in, the game of professional football."

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12873455/troy-vincent-letter-tom-brady

 

From Troy Vincent's letter:

 

With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.

Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football.

I thought the suspension was from his uncooperation and the fine and loss of a draft pick was the result of the more probable than not the involvement of Brady and the ball boys. I apologize for my error and derailing the thread.

[Superman]

I thought the suspension was from his uncooperation and the fine and loss of a draft pick was the result of the more probable than not the involvement of Brady and the ball boys. I apologize for my error and derailing the thread.

 

I don't think the thread was derailed at all. I just couldn't understand why you were holding on to that. Got it now.

[dgambill]

It all could have been avoided had Brady cooperated. But it is Brady who has taken this to this extreme. No one to point a finger at except Brady.

Oh...there is a lot of blame to go around....Brady, Ballboys, Pats, Media, Fanboys, NFL. There is plenty...better safeguards in place could have prevented this. The media and fanboys are just rediculous.....and yes most of all Tom and the staff there. But plenty of blame to go around.

[dgambill]

Overall nothing has really changed. It was upheld as expected and its going to court as expected.....only some new information about Brady's actions have come out so that is really the only news here.....time for me to move on lol.

[BloodyChamp]

Nonsense. The other day you were saying the league want to avoid court. Your position changes with the wind.

It changes with whatever the best option for covering Brady is.

[braveheartcolt]

I just wish some folks would stop pointing fingers at the NFL and the Commish. They are not the ones who lied and cheated. This is all on the Patriors. ALL.

[Gramz]

I just wish some folks would stop pointing fingers at the NFL and the Commish. They are not the ones who lied and cheated. This is all on the Patriors. ALL.

Agree BH. I said earlier that the league has done everything they could to try to protect him and his image, and they gave him every opportunity to make this right, and yet here we are. They couldn't protect him from himself.

[dw49]

I just wish some folks would stop pointing fingers at the NFL and the Commish. They are not the ones who lied and cheated. This is all on the Patriors. ALL.

 

 

You're trying to say that the NLF didn't tell Wells to find them guilty because ..

 

1) He and the rest of the league are jealous and have it out for the Pats.

 

2) He ( Goodall ) didn't want to look foolish and spend all that money and have them come up with nothing. Rather than admit a "witch hunt" he would rather frame the Pats. Don't worry about it leaking out that he was part of framing one of the best players in NFL history.

 

I can't think of anymore reasons for this huge injustice.. can you  ?

[scooter4910]

This really sucks that if the suspension holds his first game back will be against the Colts.

 

- If the Pats win it will be Brady's revenge

- If they lose it will be the Colts fault he's rusty.

 

Either way the results will be tainted. There will be a s'load of coverage of this game....gonna be awful.

[Flying Elvis]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the NFL would be so preoccupied with making Brady and the Patriots look bad... How does that benefit the league?

It benefits the Jets!    

[amfootball]

He's not siding with you AM. His point is why would the NFL conspire to bring Brady down ? Other words all the rhetoric the Pats are putting out makes no sense.

I have posted this before but here it is again from Mike Reiss a few weeks ago...

 

When Wells was defending his report and findings that Tom Brady was at least “generally aware” of wrongdoing in a May conference call, he said, “All of this discussion that people in the league office wanted to put some type of hit on the most iconic player of the league, the real face of the league, doesn’t make any sense.” But here’s the counterpoint to Wells: It makes sense if the alternative was that the league would look like it didn’t know what it was doing in the first place by calling for a full-scale, $5 million investigation on something easily explained by science. So essentially it was bury Brady or bury themselves. Which brings me back to my original point from early May: “I’ve digested the 243-page Wells report multiple times, and with its bias and lack of fairness in certain areas, I truly can’t believe what the commissioner has done to the legacy and reputation of one of the greatest quarterbacks and ambassadors in the history of the game -- all over air pressure in a football and without definitive proof he had anything to do with it.” 

[Superman]

It benefits the Jets!    

 

Yeah, the Jets are the darlings of the league...

[Gramz]

Public Service announcement:

Back away from the rose colored glasses.

[aaron11]

 

without definitive proof he had anything to do with it.

 

like i said all along, its not innocent until proven guilty.  he didnt  comply with the investigation, and RJ believes in his head that brady is guilty on some level. 

 

that is all he ever needed to dish out a suspension

 

[amfootball]

like i said all along, its not innocent until proven guilty.  he didnt  comply with the investigation, and RJ believes in his head that brady is guilty on some level. 

 

that is all he ever needed to dish out a suspension

 

Except he never has for non-cooperation. Precedent is working big time against him here from the violation itself to the non-coop which is dubious at best given Brady was under no legal authority to hand over his phone.

[ColtsFan1976]

I just hope when the Colts play New England in Indy, the Colts are ready this time.  If Brady comes here and beats the Colts by 30, this all will be for nothing.

[dw49]

I have posted this before but here it is again from Mike Reiss a few weeks ago...

 

When Wells was defending his report and findings that Tom Brady was at least “generally aware” of wrongdoing in a May conference call, he said, “All of this discussion that people in the league office wanted to put some type of hit on the most iconic player of the league, the real face of the league, doesn’t make any sense.” But here’s the counterpoint to Wells: It makes sense if the alternative was that the league would look like it didn’t know what it was doing in the first place by calling for a full-scale, $5 million investigation on something easily explained by science. So essentially it was bury Brady or bury themselves. Which brings me back to my original point from early May: “I’ve digested the 243-page Wells report multiple times, and with its bias and lack of fairness in certain areas, I truly can’t believe what the commissioner has done to the legacy and reputation of one of the greatest quarterbacks and ambassadors in the history of the game -- all over air pressure in a football and without definitive proof he had anything to do with it.” 

 

 

I was just trying to help you out with the fact that poster was not siding with you . Also thanks for the post from Mike Weiss ... a very neutral observer....

 

 

@MikeReiss. ESPN NFL Nation reporter covering the New England Patriots. Reporter/analyst for http://ESPNBoston.com .

[Yehoodi]

You said it's both civil and criminal. It's not.

 

Your example was criminal, but we're talking about a civil matter. As the other poster said...

 

Your trolling right?  

 

Look Supes I just made a simple example as it seems that the NFL is trying to judge shop.   I am trying to have a serious conversation with respect to this issue, that is all.

 

I could not figure out at the time what their bases for filing in NY as they are not the plaintiff.  And figured perhaps someone here could figure it out or have personal experience in such matters and filings.  Upon reflection the only thing I can think of is filing paperwork for a declaratory judgment, which for me is not something that I think they can they do, more below.

 

There are many non lawyers on this board and when I can I like to share any knowledge as my background is in law and engineering.   As it looked like the NFL was judge shopping and much worse was doing it 15 minutes after Brady could file his suit I found the filing in NY well troubling (Brady could not file prior to today as he needed to exhaust all of his administrative remedies with the appeals within the body of the NFL, which ended when the NFL issued its opinion today).

 

I made my analogy in post #203 to give a real life example of how a defendant, in fear of a plaintiff filing a civil lawsuit in federal court with plaintiff friendly judges, will beat him to the punch and file paperwork in another federal court which has defendant friendly judges.  It just does not seem correct to me, I damage you and then 4 hours later run to a defendant friendly court while you go to a lawyer, and say 7 days later file in another court but have to have the case heard in the court that I filed in, it does not make sense.

 

As for my analogy being civil or criminal, its is both.  As we are discussing civil suits, I thought that it would of been obvious that I was talking about civil suit in federal court, but I see some did not pick that up.  I was talking about diversity jurisdiction if you would like to know and the federal jurisdiction limit is now up to 75K in damages to the plaintiff.   I choose to discuss folks from two different jurisdictions so as we could have two different judges in the analogy, and get us in federal court via diversity jurisdiction.  As I was discussing federal court and money I thought my point was obvious.  If you reread post #203 second paragraph is all very clear.

 

Furthermore, as for the criminal side of things, this is something that would not be handled in federal court.  I described a garden variety assault and battery with a dangerous weapon (tire iron) and this is something that is handle in state court NOT federal court, which is another reason why your response is confusing.  Bottom line hundreds of these things happened all the time in a federal court jurisdiction and is what the hundreds of state superior and district courts are for.  So yes its both civil and criminal with the former being handled in federal court and later in state court.

 

As for if a declaratory judgment is a proper action for the NY, I am not 100% sold on it.  Typically this action is done when there are no damages that have occurred or folks are just trying to resolve a dispute and one of them goes to court to get a resolution before things get out of hand.  Say for example you and I get into a contract for me to paint you house say in October and then in August prior to you having to find another painter or me other work, we have a dispute as to a clause in the contract.   One of use will file for a declaratory judgment from the local court to resolve the dispute before you or I have any damages from you looking for another painter or me other work. 

 

But as Brady has already incurred damages at least insofar as damage to his reputation and lost games, the cat is out of the bag.  Also, as Brady will be filing in court tomorrow, there is no need for the NFL to file paperwork as the issue will be resolved with Brady's filing.   Its not like the NFL has been waiting for 18 months and wants to get it off their mind.

 

So again it brings me back to my point about judge shopping and should a defendant be allowed to boot strap a paperwork filing in a court of his choosing to get the case heard in the court he wishes.  And it bring me back to my point about is it fair for someone to imposed monetary damages on another then run to a defendant friendly court 4 hours later.  If one feels this is not correct, then one should equally feel that the NFL, knowing that Brady is likely going to sue but can't till the NFL issues its ruling, then issues its ruling then runs to a court 15 minutes later knowing full well that Brady is going to file (and will tomorrow) within a day and all issues with be resolved in that court.  

 

Bottom line, if its not appropriate for me to scurry back to Boston to file paperwork to beat you to the punch, then its not appropriate for what the NFL did, that is my point.  My guess would be that the NY court will defer to the Minnesota court, but time will tell.

[ColtsFan1976]

You're trying to say that the NLF didn't tell Wells to find them guilty because ..

 

1) He and the rest of the league are jealous and have it out for the Pats.

 

2) He ( Goodall ) didn't want to look foolish and spend all that money and have them come up with nothing. Rather than admit a "witch hunt" he would rather frame the Pats. Don't worry about it leaking out that he was part of framing one of the best players in NFL history.

 

I can't think of anymore reasons for this huge injustice.. can you  ?

 

Brady destroyed his phone.  The NFL found evidence (an old phone) that Brady lied about destroying his phone every few months.  Brady lied and did cheat.

[aaron11]

Except he never has for non-cooperation. Precedent is working big time against him here from the violation itself to the non-coop which is dubious at best given Brady was under no legal authority to hand over his phone.

i think there is some precedent.  remember how von miller got a suspension for "accidentally" spilling a urine sample.  players are not legally required to take drug tests, but its in the league rules

[amfootball]

I was just trying to help you out with the fact that poster was not siding with you . Also thanks for the post from Mike Weiss ... a very neutral observer....

 

 

@MikeReiss. ESPN NFL Nation reporter covering the New England Patriots. Reporter/analyst for http://ESPNBoston.com .

I think there is a fair amount circulating about the league letting this get this far. To not to have come to a settlement is atrocious on their part. But it is what it is. I was not expecting it as this looong ago stopped being about air pressure in footballs. They apparently wanted the court case and they have it now for better or for worse.

[dw49]

Except he never has for non-cooperation. Precedent is working big time against him here from the violation itself to the non-coop which is dubious at best given Brady was under no legal authority to hand over his phone.

 

 

Nor was it illegal for him to lie and say it was protocol to destroy it.  Nor was it illegal to destroy it within a day from being asked to provide texts relating to the investigation. BTW... keep embellishing. No one asked him to "turn over his cell phone>" But so what ? What's your point ? 

[dw49]

Your trolling right?  

 

Look Supes I just made a simple example as it seems that the NFL is trying to judge shop.   I am trying to have a serious conversation with respect to this issue, that is all.

 

I could not figure out at the time what their bases for filing in NY as they are not the plaintiff.  And figured perhaps someone here could figure it out or have personal experience in such matters and filings.  Upon reflection the only thing I can think of is filing paperwork for a declaratory judgment, which for me is not something that I think they can they do, more below.

 

There are many non lawyers on this board and when I can I like to share any knowledge as my background is in law and engineering.   As it looked like the NFL was judge shopping and much worse was doing it 15 minutes after Brady could file his suit I found the filing in NY well troubling (Brady could not file prior to today as he needed to exhaust all of his administrative remedies with the appeals within the body of the NFL, which ended when the NFL issued its opinion today).

 

I made my analogy in post #203 to give a real life example of how a defendant, in fear of a plaintiff filing a civil lawsuit in federal court with plaintiff friendly judges, will beat him to the punch and file paperwork in another federal court which has defendant friendly judges.  It just does not seem correct to me, I damage you and then 4 hours later run to a defendant friendly court while you go to a lawyer, and say 7 days later file in another court but have to have the case heard in the court that I filed in, it does not make sense.

 

As for my analogy being civil or criminal, its is both.  As we are discussing civil suits, I thought that it would of been obvious that I was talking about civil suit in federal court, but I see some did not pick that up.  I was talking about diversity jurisdiction if you would like to know and the federal jurisdiction limit is now up to 75K in damages to the plaintiff.   I choose to discuss folks from two different jurisdictions so as we could have two different judges in the analogy, and get us in federal court via diversity jurisdiction.  As I was discussing federal court and money I thought my point was obvious.  If you reread post #203 second paragraph is all very clear.

 

Furthermore, as for the criminal side of things, this is something that would not be handled in federal court.  I described a garden variety assault and battery with a dangerous weapon (tire iron) and this is something that is handle in state court NOT federal court, which is another reason why your response is confusing.  Bottom line hundreds of these things happened all the time in a federal court jurisdiction and is what the hundreds of state superior and district courts are for.  So yes its both civil and criminal with the former being handled in federal court and later in state court.

 

As for if a declaratory judgment is a proper action for the NY, I am not 100% sold on it.  Typically this action is done when there are no damages that have occurred or folks are just trying to resolve a dispute and one of them goes to court to get a resolution before things get out of hand.  Say for example you and I get into a contract for me to paint you house say in October and then in August prior to you having to find another painter or me other work, we have a dispute as to a clause in the contract.   One of use will file for a declaratory judgment from the local court to resolve the dispute before you or I have any damages from you looking for another painter or me other work. 

 

But as Brady has already incurred damages at least insofar as damage to his reputation and lost games, the cat is out of the bag.  Also, as Brady will be filing in court tomorrow, there is no need for the NFL to file paperwork as the issue will be resolved with Brady's filing.   Its not like the NFL has been waiting for 18 months and wants to get it off their mind.

 

So again it brings me back to my point about judge shopping and should a defendant be allowed to boot strap a paperwork filing in a court of his choosing to get the case heard in the court he wishes.  And it bring me back to my point about is it fair for someone to imposed monetary damages on another then run to a defendant friendly court 4 hours later.  If one feels this is not correct, then one should equally feel that the NFL, knowing that Brady is likely going to sue but can't till the NFL issues its ruling, then issues its ruling then runs to a court 15 minutes later knowing full well that Brady is going to file (and will tomorrow) within a day and all issues with be resolved in that court.  

 

Bottom line, if its not appropriate for me to scurry back to Boston to file paperwork to beat you to the punch, then its not appropriate for what the NFL did, that is my point.  My guess would be that the NY court will defer to the Minnesota court, but time will tell.

 

 

can you condense this a bit and I'll read it and comment ?

[aaron11]

I just hope when the Colts play New England in Indy, the Colts are ready this time.  If Brady comes here and beats the Colts by 30, this all will be for nothing.

no it wont lol.  its about integrity, and making sure cheating is punished.  its bigger than our record vs the patriots.

 

and they still lose the picks...

[amfootball]

Nor was it illegal for him to lie and say it was protocol to destroy it.  Nor was it illegal to destroy it within a day from being asked to provide texts relating to the investigation. BTW... keep embellishing. No one asked him to "turn over his cell phone>" But so what ? What's your point ? 

I don't think it matters whether he refused to turn it over or destroyed it. He is not going to court based on the deflation. He is going to court based on labor management and league precedent. Nothing has changed in that regard and the NFL will have a tough time making this thing stick which is why they have filed suit in NY.

[Surge89]

Yeah, that much is blatantly obvious. One game. LOL. Never was in the cards NFL is dug in too far on this one ... on to court.

Oh you never disappoint. I literally read through just to see your comments to see how clueless and blind the human race can actually be.

You are almost as deluded as Brady is self centered. That's quite amazing.

[Gramz]

Except he never has for non-cooperation. Precedent is working big time against him here from the violation itself to the non-coop which is dubious at best given Brady was under no legal authority to hand over his phone.

Roger believes he's guilty. Hell, most of the country believes he's guilty. I believe Roger gave him every opportunity to come clean, he did what he could to try to help Tom protect his image, and I believe he was willing to reduce the suspension. Instead, Brady destroyed his phone and refuses to admit any wrongdoing.

Why did he destroy his phone?

Why did he want papers from the Appeal sealed?

Are these the actions of an innocent man? My thoughts are Hell No.

And as far as precedent. Well Tom is setting one. You can bet your A$$, that if anyone destroys evidence in the future, automatic 4 game suspension.

[weslo1812]

Bottom line in it all... If Tom Brady would have just cooperated and done what was requested of him to prove his innocence in the issue than he wouldn't have to be dealing with it. It's should been too easy. BUT... he denied to even let them have a printout of his messages or anything. Then we find he destroyed the phone suddenly and he's lied about when he did that. That right there just screams GUILTY MAN running for his life!!! He, Brady bought this on himself by the actions he's chosen to take and not be fully cooperative. There is no one else to blame for Mr. Brady. Pats fans that don't understand this very simple concept are lost. And of course they wanna deflect everything away from their boy and point fingers at the leauge. Of course... they know he's guilty and right now he's got his little tail tucked between his legs trying to fend for his reputation. That's all he's after. He could care less about INTEGRITY or HONESTY!!! Cause that's what this is about too that alot of Pats fans don't understand. Your guys boy Brady Integrity is now under high high question and most likely forever will be. Cause he don't wanna be forthright and honest. Instead he wants to hide and try to escape scotch free.

[Surge89]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the NFL would be so preoccupied with making Brady and the Patriots look bad... How does that benefit the league?

It doesnt. But people are quite foolish and idolize football players so much that they truly believe they can do no wrong. When the fact is they are just people and in Brady's case a really bad liar and adamant cheater.

[ViriLudant]

LOL

Tom Brady declined to provide access to his phone, destroyed his phone, then lied by saying that he always destroys his old phones.

Except that Brady offered to provide printouts of every text.

Goodell didn't accept that. So, yes, Bradyndid offer to give the NFL the text messages themselves.

[Superman]

Your trolling right?  

 

Look Supes I just made a simple example as it seems that the NFL is trying to judge shop.   I am trying to have a serious conversation with respect to this issue, that is all.

 

...

 

Good heavens.

 

No, I'm not trolling. You described a matter that would be handled in criminal court, then when countered with the fact that the Brady situation is a civil matter, you decided that 'we're talking about both criminal and civil.' We're not. The Brady situation is civil, only. Not criminal. So how a criminal matter would be handled doesn't matter. Again, that was the other poster's point. Civil, not criminal. Really simple.

 

As for whether it's appropriate for the NFL to request a confirmation of their ruling, and which court will have jurisdiction, that will all be determined by the courts. It's not really pertinent at this point. 

 

But I do find it curious that the NFL asking for confirmation of their ruling is a problem to certain fans, but a player running to a historically favorable court is totally okay. 

[HORSEPOWER]

So I guess my profile pic is kinda fitting afterall..... lol

 

 

 

FEEL FREE TO USE IT!

[Superman]

Except that Brady offered to provide printouts of every text.

Goodell didn't accept that. So, yes, Bradyndid offer to give the NFL the text messages themselves.

 

Source?

[Surge89]

I'm very Anti-Brady, but that's ridiculous.

Why? He has yet to prove he's done anything legitimately in this league.

[amfootball]

Except that Brady offered to provide printouts of every text.

Goodell didn't accept that. So, yes, Bradyndid offer to give the NFL the text messages themselves.

Yee has said they will be sharing ALL that Brady provided in the appeal in the coming days so we will see exactly what Roger chose to ignore.

[HORSEPOWER]

Except that Brady offered to provide printouts of every text.

Goodell didn't accept that. So, yes, Bradyndid offer to give the NFL the text messages themselves.

Except that Brady offered to printout his version of every text.

 

There, I fixed that for ya......