Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[csmopar]

Unless a liar gets sworn in & under oath tells his version of the truth proclaiming his innocence IMO I'm thinking perjury if this goes very far .

Got to prove it....he's gonna have to say he destroys all his phones when he gets new ones....which then the league can counter with evidence he lied.

Im thinking the league is far more prepared for a court case than I originally thought. The fact they had the filing ready to go tells you they've at least done their homework, what it grades out to be is another thing

[Gramz]

I couldn't care less what happens now. I really don't. Brady has made a complete fool of himself, and shown his true colours.

Tick. Job done.

You know, I agree.   And to take it a step further, I think the NFL has done everything they could to try to protect Tom and his image, but they can't protect him from himself.

[csmopar]

Bingo. Polian hit the nail on the head. But this was never about the shield or the good of the league from day one ...

Im gonna ask a completely hypothetical question....

If some woman comes out and says she was raped by Tom Brady, rape kit has his DNA in it and there is roofies in her blood system, would you still defend him?

[amfootball]

rtBreer 5m5 minutes ago

Statement from the Patriots (no name attached) pic.twitter.com/e16r6ysiKQ

 

[dgambill]

Correction:  They only asked for messages pertinent to the investigation.  There is a big difference.    No reasonable explanation for him not cooperating....   He did Not cooperate with this part of the investigation and he admitted that he destroyed his phone.  This is only going to hurt his case.

I understand Gramz...I just don't think the court will see it that way. Any request for personal private messages not on company devices etc I think is reaching beyond the right of the league to obtain. Just because they know Tom may have talked about stuff doesn't mean they have the right to access it. I'm not here defending Tom but you have to understand the Court often looks to protect the rights of private individuals....who in this case hasn't broke a law or anything. I think its hard to punish a guy that doesn't want to share his private thoughts/messages with his employer...even if he is part of an investigation. Ask him questions...grill him...confiscate his playbook computer etc whatever but once you enter his private domain...that is opening up a different box. Perhap Brady already opened it with the messages they already had....possible..and that is what the league is counting on but these Judges typically have protected employees.

[Gramz]

 

rtBreer 5m5 minutes ago

Statement from the Patriots (no name attached) pic.twitter.com/e16r6ysiKQ

 

 

No surprise here,  did anyone expect anything other than this?    

[CoachLite]

"The Brady doth protest too much, methinks"  paraphrased from Shakespeare's Hamlet,

 

Indicating that a person's overly frequent or vehement attempts to convince others of something have ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true, by making the person look insincere and defensive.

[Superman]

Man, oh, man! I sure hope you're wrong about your opinion, Superman! Would not be good for the league as a whole, and could lead the NFL down the wrong path for a true falling-away of our fans. That would not be good. Not good at all.

 

I don't think it's the right thing to do, but the courts have been overturning NFL suspensions on a whim for a few years now. I'm sure they'll find a way to overturn this.

 

And big picture, it just adds to the precedent that's already been established: break the rules, get suspended, sue the league, get suspension overturned, claim victory. This is exactly what Troy Vincent said a few weeks ago.

[amfootball]

No surprise here,  did anyone expect anything other than this?  

No but the support is not just strong but attacks the league similar to what happened after the original penalties were handed out. I am interested to see what Kraft says/does next ...

[Superman]

I understand Gramz...I just don't think the court will see it that way. Any request for personal private messages not on company devices etc I think is reaching beyond the right of the league to obtain. Just because they know Tom may have talked about stuff doesn't mean they have the right to access it. I'm not here defending Tom but you have to understand the Court often looks to protect the rights of private individuals....who in this case hasn't broke a law or anything. I think its hard to punish a guy that doesn't want to share his private thoughts/messages with his employer...even if he is part of an investigation. Ask him questions...grill him...confiscate his playbook computer etc whatever but once you enter his private domain...that is opening up a different box. Perhap Brady already opened it with the messages they already had....possible..and that is what the league is counting on but these Judges typically have protected employees.

 

They didn't enter his private domain. They asked, he declined. They didn't claim any right to his private information; they requested it. Again, he declined.

 

Why do you keep saying this?

 

It's the equivalent of being part of a pending police investigation, they knock on your door and say 'we'd like to have a look around,' and you tell them they can't come in without a warrant. They didn't overreach by asking, nor did they infringe upon your rights. This complaint is like suing the police just for asking to come in.

[Superman]

No surprise here,  did anyone expect anything other than this?  

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the NFL would be so preoccupied with making Brady and the Patriots look bad... How does that benefit the league?

[Gramz]

I understand Gramz...I just don't think the court will see it that way. Any request for personal private messages not on company devices etc I think is reaching beyond the right of the league to obtain. Just because they know Tom may have talked about stuff doesn't mean they have the right to access it. I'm not here defending Tom but you have to understand the Court often looks to protect the rights of private individuals....who in this case hasn't broke a law or anything. I think its hard to punish a guy that doesn't want to share his private thoughts/messages with his employer...even if he is part of an investigation. Ask him questions...grill him...confiscate his playbook computer etc whatever but once you enter his private domain...that is opening up a different box. Perhap Brady already opened it with the messages they already had....possible..and that is what the league is counting on but these Judges typically have protected employees.

Well, this was just plain stupid on his part to destroy his phone.  It only makes him look more guilty.  Those messages will come out now.  The cellular carrier will have digital copies,  and if and when it goes to Court,  they will be subpoenaed, and Tom and Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum will be under oath.

 

It's about to get very interesting. 

[bababooey]

How can the patriots call out the commissioner on this decision when they accepted punishment for it already? Enough is enough

[Gramz]

No but the support is not just strong but attacks the league similar to what happened after the original penalties were handed out. I am interested to see what Kraft says/does next ...

Kraft accepted his penalty, like a Man.

[Cynjin]

I couldn't care less what happens now. I really don't. Brady has made a complete fool of himself, and shown his true colours.

Tick. Job done.

Agreed. TB has also made Kraft look foolish too, IMO.

[Girlzarefanstoo]

The most amusing thing will be when the Patriots vaunted and record low fumble rate returns to mortal status and it becomes very, VERY clear to the world that Tom Brady has cheated for years.

[dgambill]

Im gonna ask a completely hypothetical question....

If some woman comes out and says she was raped by Tom Brady, rape kit has his DNA in it and there is roofies in her blood system, would you still defend him?

Thats a pretty disgusting scenerio...putting Tom in that hypothetical is just wrong...he doesn't deserve that. I think you could use a much more tasteful scenerio to make your point. I know what your saying and I tried to ask the same question earlier in a different manner to no avail but let's not drag Tom down to that gross level. At worst here we are dealing with someone that was deceitful and trying to cover it up....something many many do every day when they get caught in a lie....not to condone or say its right...but man that scenerio is just horrible to even imagine.

[dw49]

Bingo. Polian hit the nail on the head. But this was never about the shield or the good of the league from day one ...

 

 

He's not siding with you AM. His point is why would the NFL conspire to bring Brady down ? Other words all the rhetoric the Pats are putting out makes no sense.

[PrincetonTiger]

No matter what happens Tom Brady has become part of an unique group of sports villains with the likes of Pete Rose and Lance Armstrong

[dgambill]

They didn't enter his private domain. They asked, he declined. They didn't claim any right to his private information; they requested it. Again, he declined.

 

Why do you keep saying this?

 

It's the equivalent of being part of a pending police investigation, they knock on your door and say 'we'd like to have a look around,' and you tell them they can't come in without a warrant. They didn't overreach by asking, nor did they infringe upon your rights. This complaint is like suing the police just for asking to come in.

I don't think that makes sense. The NFL aren't the police. This isn't a matter of public safety etc. This is an employer/employee scenerio where the employer is seeking to enter the employee's personal life. Maybe I'm just not getting it and thats possible. Certainly the NFL can ask...but I think its rediculous they can punish someone that won't give them private messages on their phone, computer, or private videos. If its a tweet, internet post, public interview etc sure...if its something that is owned by the team/league etc...sure...but not your private messages/conversations. They aren't the police/FBI...if this was your employer should they be able to do this to you? I would say not....but thats for the judge I guess.

 

 Because their request can easily be seen as over-reach...that they just because they request something and he declines doesn't make him uncooperative. If the request is deemed unreasonable then he cooperated as fully as what is reasonable under his employment with the league. I know thats debatable but that is the point I'm making. I see it his way on this issue. You can't make unreasonable and unrealistic demands of an employee to their personal private information and then suspend them when they say no. Now...is it unreasonable since it was already discovered by the league pertaining to a couple of messages....maybe...maybe not...but I think that is where the crux of the decision will be made...and I don't think its a slam dunk case for the NFL as some seem to believe.

[MTC]

A small equipment violation has caused so much attention. So silly.

[dgambill]

Well, this was just plain stupid on his part to destroy his phone.  It only makes him look more guilty.  Those messages will come out now.  The cellular carrier will have digital copies,  and if and when it goes to Court,  they will be subpoenaed, and Tom and Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum will be under oath.

 

It's about to get very interesting. 

I doubt we ever see that. If the court allows his messages to be made public he will immediately drop his case. I don't think they can seal the records etc of the court case so I doubt he allows those to be turned over. Thats a big if that the court would order that...that is even less likely than the court upholding the NFL even had a right to what was on the phone. It will get interesting....can't wait for Nancy Grace to weigh in lol.

[MTC]

His HOF eligibility should be revoked. 

 

I'm very Anti-Brady, but that's ridiculous. 

[Superman]

A small equipment violation has caused so much attention. So silly.

 

Tampering with game equipment isn't small.

[Superman]

Because their request can easily be seen as over-reach...that they just because they request something and he declines doesn't make him uncooperative. If the request is deemed unreasonable then he cooperated as fully as what is reasonable under his employment with the league. I know thats debatable but that is the point I'm making. I see it his way on this issue. You can't make unreasonable and unrealistic demands of an employee to their personal private information and then suspend them when they say no. Now...is it unreasonable since it was already discovered by the league pertaining to a couple of messages....maybe...maybe not...but I think that is where the crux of the decision will be made...and I don't think its a slam dunk case for the NFL as some seem to believe.

 

It's not an overreach to request information.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

And when he loses his court battle and is found in contempt because he destroyed evedence he should be suspended for the entire year

[FanFromtheWasteland]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the NFL would be so preoccupied with making Brady and the Patriots look bad... How does that benefit the league?

So just to clarify are you saying that even if they cheated on anything that the league should just let it go? Is that what you are saying?

[dgambill]

A small equipment violation has caused so much attention. So silly.

Best post of the day! It really puts things into perspective....on so many levels. Makes one shake their head at the Patriots, Brady, and the league.

[ColtsBlueFL]

This is why I am confused.    Also, its not a countersuit as there is no initial filing by Brady, but I know where you were going. 

 

{snipped}

 

Unless there is something unique in the Labor Laws, I do not see how the NFL can file the paperwork that it did in New York anymore than I can think why I can walk into my home state federal court to file paperwork as above.     

 

It's a dec action, or declarative judgement.

 

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/declaratory+judgment

 

 

Preemptive. 

[dgambill]

It's not an overreach to request information.

To suspend someone because they wouldn't give it to you when your request is beyond a reasonable request from an employer/employee relationship...yeah I think it is...but thats just me. 

[Superman]

So just to clarify are you saying that even if they cheated on anything that the league should just let it go? Is that what you are saying?

 

No.

[MTC]

Tampering with game equipment isn't small.

 

Yes, it's a something to put on notice, but in no way did it impact the game.

If another team did the same crime, it would get no where the same attention this case has.

[Superman]

To suspend someone because they wouldn't give it to you when your request is beyond a reasonable request from an employer/employee relationship...yeah I think it is...but thats just me. 

 

They didn't suspend him because he didn't give them what they requested. They suspended him because they believe he was aware of and encouraged flagrant rules violations. The fact that they didn't turn over the phone messages, and instead destroyed the phone, just informs their belief.

[crazycolt1]

It won't in court I believe. I always believed commish would hold to 4 games. Although I do love the fact that the optics of this look horrible for the league with Hardy at 4 games for DV. Only Roger ...

Hardy and his case has zero to do with this case. Hardy's case was a criminal case. Brady's is an in house case. Apples and oranges.

[LockeDown]

I always go back to Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens.  One was able to admit the truth with humility and one (like many others) thought he was above the law.   Americans respect someone who mans up and admits their mistakes as long as they are sincere. He is way past that now. 

[Superman]

Yes, it's a something to put on notice, but it no way did it impact the game.

If another team did the same crime, it would get no where the same attention this case has.

 

I disagree. Maybe it didn't impact our game, but there's evidence that this was going on prior to the 2014 season. It's possible that this affected other games.

 

And while another team might not have generated this level of interest, another team didn't win the SB, another team didn't get penalized for Spygate, and another team wouldn't have thrown up a tacky website claiming to debunk the league's findings. 

 

Furthermore, attention is one thing. The league's response is another. And I believe that any other team would have been investigated just the same. The punishment might have been different because the Pats have a prior, but that's logical.

[crazycolt1]

because it is all or nothing in court. And a judge would be much more likely to uphold 2 games as opposed to 4 which is ridiculous for this "offense."

Why? There has been no case to uphold before this. Tell me the case where a preference has been set for actions detrimental to the league. Oh, by the way the Patriots have already had one of those cases and have been found guilty.

[dgambill]

No matter what happens Tom Brady has become part of an unique group of sports villains with the likes of Pete Rose and Lance Armstrong

I would put him in the Hilary Clinton/Lois Lerner group...but since he is much much more likable and enjoyable to watch would say he will get a pass from most.

 

Until he admits something I don't know if we can say definatively that he did something...nor do I think his wrong doing is even CLOSE to what those two did (Pete/Lance)...but I do think he hurt his image a lot with this whole thing....very much mishandled it..but in the end when he gets back on the field will silence many when he goes right back out there and wins and wins and wins some more. A lot of jealous, hurt fanboys aside he is still one of if not THE best qb of this generation....and no amount of crying will take those rings away...and none will make the Seahawks run the ball instead of pass on that last play. This will definately be a part of his legacy no doubt...but his career and accomplishments will still be seen for how great they were...just like we recognize Pete for his. People will separate the two...what he accomplished from the fact he lied to cover up one of the most minor infractions in the rule book.

[dgambill]

They didn't suspend him because he didn't give them what they requested. They suspended him because they believe he was aware of and encouraged flagrant rules violations. The fact that they didn't turn over the phone messages, and instead destroyed the phone, just informs their belief.

Ohhh...see I was under the impression he was suspended for not cooperating with the investigation....not the fact that the investigation found more probable than not he knew about it......hmmm I think I'm seeing where you've been coming from now lol. Sorry!

[Superman]

Ohhh...see I was under the impression he was suspended for not cooperating with the investigation....not the fact that the investigation found more probable than not he knew about it......hmmm I think I'm seeing where you've been coming from now lol. Sorry!

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/07/28/0ap3000000504265.pdf

 

From Goodell's summary today: 

"I entered into the appeal process open to reevaluating my assessment of Mr. Brady's conduct and the associated discipline. Especially in light of the new evidence introduced at the hearing -- evidence demonstrating that he arranged for the destruction of potentially relevant evidence that had been specifically requested by the investigators -- my findings and conclusions have not changed in a manner that would benefit Mr. Brady.

 

...I find that, with respect to the game balls used in the AFC Championship Game and the subsequent investigation, Mr. Brady engaged in conduct detrimental to the integrity of, and public confidence in, the game of professional football."

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12873455/troy-vincent-letter-tom-brady

 

From Troy Vincent's letter:

 

With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.

Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football.