Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[pgt_rob]

Now I know why so many have left this board over the years.

28-0 in the second half .

Please. If you honestly think that this PSI issue, which has already been crushed by numerous scientific groups , will tarnish Brady, I'd simply point to Elway, whose team cheated in a much worse manner. How's his legacy?

Their are rules. The rules matter. It gives an advantage. How thick is your skull bro? lol

Besides, perhaps people involved with handing down punishments were like you, where maybe what they were doing wasn't a big deal. However now with Goodell, he's standing strong and making sure cheating is not allowed. It's happening to your guy, so of course you're not going to like it, but it's for the greater good. Suck it up butter cup.

[Yehoodi]

It's a dec action, or declarative judgement.

 

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/declaratory+judgment

 

 

Preemptive. 

 

Thanks for posting the link to that legal dictionary site.

 

If we look at the very first paragraph we see why I am troubled but what the NFL did is a proper use of a seeking a Declaratory Judgment.

 

The first paragraph leads off in pertinent part as follows:

 

"Individuals may seek a declaratory judgment after a legal controversy has arisen but before any damages have occurred or any laws have been violated." (emphasis added).

 

So as I read that particular definition of the declaratory judgment relief it can only be sought prior to any damages incurred and/or violation of a law.   The problem with the instant case is that they have damages (Brady's/Pats reputation and lost games) and laws violated (if Goodell violated labor laws by hearing the appeal, etc).   Now for the moment I am not saying 100% this are true, but if there are deemed to have happen by a court of law in Brady's law suit, then they happened and happened at a time prior to the filing of the paperwork by the NFL.

 

If the NFL is deemed to have violated labor laws by having Goodell hear the appeal, they violated this law at least as soon as today and frankly back when he decided to hear the appeal.  As for the damage to rep that could far back as not responding to Mortenson's 2 psig below spec report.  but either way both of these actions occurred prior to today's filing.

 

Things might stand on a different footing for me, had none of this been made public and there were private meetings between the parties and there was a legal dispute as to what Goodell could hear and what suspension could be imposed, and there was a legal dispute as to what could be done, nothing got resolved and prior to going public and making a decision the NFL went to a court to seek guidance on the matter, maybe things would be different as you would have a dispute and before any damages or labor law violations one party sought an opinion from a court. 

 

Gets back to my point about painting Supes' house.   If we have a dispute on a clause in the contract, I might have an option to seek an opinion from the court, but if just ignore it, think he is wrong, don't paint his house and he has to find another painter costing him $1000 over our contract price he can come after me for $1,000 in cover damages.   I can't then seek an opinion from a court imo.

 

So once the damage is done, be it not painting a house, breaking a pianist's hand, or violation labor laws/defamation, I do no see how a declaratory judgment is something that can be sought.   

 

If this is true, which I think that it is, it would kind of ironic.  The NFL, teams and fans talked about integrity, fairness, and loopholes when they were referring to what the pats did and their formations, the NFL then outlawed the formation much to the praise of fans and teams of other cities.  Now the NFL itself is trying to use a remedy not for what it was originally intended in the hopes to get favorable results.  I find that ironic and frankly hypocrisy.

[crazycolt1]

Oh...there is a lot of blame to go around....Brady, Ballboys, Pats, Media, Fanboys, NFL. There is plenty...better safeguards in place could have prevented this. The media and fanboys are just rediculous.....and yes most of all Tom and the staff there. But plenty of blame to go around.

Better safeguards? I don't think the NFL thought that with what safeguards were in place a team(Patriots) would steal the balls and have them deflated. If you remember the balls disappeared before the game and the back up balls were ask for. There is one fact that most seem to forget. As far as the ballboys they were Patriot employees and common sense would say they were following Brady's wishes. Media? How so? Fanboys? How so? These came into the picture after the fact. No, Brady himself caused this firestorm. Had he cooperated he would have drew his token fine and moved on. He cost himself a 4 game suspension, the Patriots a loss of two draft picks and Kraft a million dollars. That is the direct results of his non cooperation and disregard of the NFL's investigation.

[Yehoodi]

can you condense this a bit and I'll read it and comment ?

 

Sure.  The question is whether a defendant like the NFL can file paperwork with a court to seek a favorable ruling (a judge sympathetic to their side) after the defendant's damaging acts have occurred.   meaning judge shopping.

 

The acts in question have occurred; namely defamation, violation of labor laws, etc.  Well any acts that could be deemed to be these have occurred.   The NFL then filed paperwork and I assume they are seeking a declaratory judgment asking a court that  they acted properly.   Problem is my understanding and the link provided by ColtsBlueFL in post #302 regarding this type of relief is that it is limited to before someone gets hurt.

 

So if you have a legal dispute between two parties and before anyone gets hurt or someone violated a law and its not resolved one party can go to a court and ask their advise as to who is correct.  But once someone is hurt or someone violated a law this remedy can not be sought and all that is left is whether or not the aggrieved party wishes to sue.  

 

So bottom line before anyone gets hurt either party can go to a court to seek an opinion on who is right, after someone is hurt only the aggrieved party can seek relief.

[Derakynn]

Been reading Goodell's report, and it's very apparent that he was very thorough about it, no wonder it took so long. Like Superman said, basically any argument I've read that is pro-Brady is rebutted in his report. 

[crazycolt1]

A small equipment violation has caused so much attention. So silly.

I totally agree. Brady himself could have ended this by simply cooperating. But no, he didn't. Look at all the money that has been spent on both sides in Brady's error of judgment. Whatever the amount the NFL spent in this investigation, Kraft 1 million dollars, the Patriots 2 draft picks and his own loss of 4 games. Plus, all of this negative things that were direct result of his disregard of the NFL and it's attempt at finding the truth.

[Gramz]

Been reading Goodell's report, and it's very apparent that he was very thorough about it, no wonder it took so long. Like Superman said, basically any argument I've read that is pro-Brady is rebutted in his report. 

Yep, all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed.      Very very thorough.

[NewColtsFan]

I just posted this from Yee maybe you missed it.

 

"Finally, as to the issue of cooperation, we presented the Commissioner with an unprecedented amount of electronic data, all of which is incontrovertible. I do not think that any private citizen would have agreed to provide anyone with the amount of information that Tom was willing to reveal to the Commissioner. Tom was completely transparent. All of the electronic information was ignored; we don’t know why. The extent to which Tom opened up his private life to the Commissioner will become clear in the coming days.

 

Yee may be a very good agent when it comes to negotiating a new contract for his client.   I suspect he's done very well by Brady.

 

But he has always struck me as in way, Way, WAY over his head when it comes to this investigation.   He strikes me as a young child who stands next to the broken window.    His bat and ball on the ground.   And the parent asks what happens,  the kid says....   "What broken window?    I didn't have anything to do with that.     That's not my bat and ball,   I don't know how they got there..."

 

He wants people to take his word for it....   it's true because he says it is.    And when evidence comes out -- like it did today -- that shows his client more guilty than he looked yesterday,  he responds that his client gave unprecedented levels of cooperation when the facts clearly show that he didn't.

 

What broken window?    What bat?   What ball?

 

What destroyed cell phone?    It was destroyed four months ago before the appeal?    So what?

 

When it comes to this type of law,  Yee is out of his league....   a rank amateur and definitely NOT helping his client.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Thanks for posting the link to that legal dictionary site.

 

If we look at the very first paragraph we see why I am troubled but what the NFL did is a proper use of a seeking a Declaratory Judgment.

 

The first paragraph leads off in pertinent part as follows:

 

"Individuals may seek a declaratory judgment after a legal controversy has arisen but before any damages have occurred or any laws have been violated." (emphasis added).

 

So as I read that particular definition of the declaratory judgment relief it can only be sought prior to any damages incurred and/or violation of a law.   The problem with the instant case is that they have damages (Brady's/Pats reputation and lost games) and laws violated (if Goodell violated labor laws by hearing the appeal, etc).   Now for the moment I am not saying 100% this are true, but if there are deemed to have happen by a court of law in Brady's law suit, then they happened and happened at a time prior to the filing of the paperwork by the NFL.

 

If the NFL is deemed to have violated labor laws by having Goodell hear the appeal, they violated this law at least as soon as today and frankly back when he decided to hear the appeal.  As for the damage to rep that could far back as not responding to Mortenson's 2 psig below spec report.  but either way both of these actions occurred prior to today's filing.

 

Things might stand on a different footing for me, had none of this been made public and there were private meetings between the parties and there was a legal dispute as to what Goodell could hear and what suspension could be imposed, and there was a legal dispute as to what could be done, nothing got resolved and prior to going public and making a decision the NFL went to a court to seek guidance on the matter, maybe things would be different as you would have a dispute and before any damages or labor law violations one party sought an opinion from a court. 

 

Gets back to my point about painting Supes' house.   If we have a dispute on a clause in the contract, I might have an option to seek an opinion from the court, but if just ignore it, think he is wrong, don't paint his house and he has to find another painter costing him $1000 over our contract price he can come after me for $1,000 in cover damages.   I can't then seek an opinion from a court imo.

 

So once the damage is done, be it not painting a house, breaking a pianist's hand, or violation labor laws/defamation, I do no see how a declaratory judgment is something that can be sought.   

 

If this is true, which I think that it is, it would kind of ironic.  The NFL, teams and fans talked about integrity, fairness, and loopholes when they were referring to what the pats did and their formations, the NFL then outlawed the formation much to the praise of fans and teams of other cities.  Now the NFL itself is trying to use a remedy not for what it was originally intended in the hopes to get favorable results.  I find that ironic and frankly hypocrisy.

 

 

I'm not going to pretend to be a lawyer, but of your two bolded statements-

 

1. No damages have occurred.  No games lost yet, and since guilt was determined by the NFL, how can they be responsible for any reputation?

2. The CBA fully allows the Goodell to hear appeals  (as an arbitrator)

 

"The CBA, which the NFLPA agreed to in 2011, expressly allows Goodell to hear all appeals. He used to allow former commissioner Paul Tagliabue to preside over certain appeals, but that likely won’t happen again after Tagliabue overturned all of the player suspensions in Bountygate and offered a stern rebuke of Goodell. Goodell also has handed appeals to former NFL executive Harold Henderson in the past, but Henderson’s decision in the Peterson case was overturned by a federal judge."

 

So no laws appear to be broken.  Here's expert analysis on Brady's court chances back last march-

 

What are Bradys chances in court?-

 

“There’s definitely an uphill battle in getting an arbitration award overturned — it’s nearly impossible, unless you can show bias,” Liss-Riordan said. “And I think it’s going to be pretty hard to vacate an arbitration award based on the arbitrator being biased if the CBA allows for the arbitrator to be an interested party.”

Munson said Wells was “very careful and very conservative” with his conclusions in his report, and the NFL has a compelling argument against the “unfair punishment” claim from Brady.

“The NFL would come back and say he lied to the investigators, he obstructed the investigation, and he was guilty on the footballs,” Munson said. “So they would say, those three things qualify him for the four-game suspension. I don’t see excessive punishment as a strong argument for Brady.”

 

Two more things, it was reported Judge Doty (Minnesota) is on Senior status and doesn't hear cases anymore (not verified yet), and the NFL is appealing Judge Doty's overturning of the Adrian Peterson case, in that they beleive judge Doty didn't have authority to overturn a binding arbitration decision. 

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/26/nfl-appeals-ruling-in-adrian-peterson-case/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-i-abrams/judge-doty-fumbled-the-ba_b_6771314.html

 

So the only case where arbitration was overturned (Taglibue did one, and the other with a neutral arbitrator they lost the case) in Federal court may disappear too.

[GoColts8818]

If this has been posted forgive me...

 

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13332578/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-nflpa-likely-come-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision

 

I thought it was an interesting read. 

 

I think Brady is really going to regret not cooperating fully and then destroying his phone.  While it's true he wasn't required to hand them over not handing them over makes it look like he has something to hide.  Then destroying it when he knew the league wanted it and not bothering to tell the league he did that until he had too also makes it look like he is trying to hide something.  Had he cooperated odds he wouldn't have been punished so harshly and while he would have taken a short term hit in terms of popularity I think in the long run people would have over looked it much like a lot of people do with spygate because at the end of the day a lot of fans outside of Indianapolis view deflating footballs as not being that big of a deal. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Been reading Goodell's report, and it's very apparent that he was very thorough about it, no wonder it took so long. Like Superman said, basically any argument I've read that is pro-Brady is rebutted in his report. 

 

I heard a team of NFL lawyers had over 400 supporting documents to come up with the 20 page report.  They seem to be armed to the teeth on this.

[csmopar]

I heard a team of NFL lawyers had over 400 supporting documents to come up with the 20 page report. They seem to be armed to the teeth on this.

I just got done reading this. Wow they were thorough. I have to say it's written far better then the Wells report. And it seems they tried to give Brady and Co every conceivable opportunity to cooperate and he never did. If this goes to court....I just dont see how Brady can claim he was unjustly treated.....it's just not there.

[Superman]

I'm not going to pretend to be a lawyer, but of your two bolded statements-

1. No damages have occurred. No games lost yet, and since guilt was determined by the NFL, how can they be responsible for any reputation?

2. The CBA fully allows the Goodell to hear appeals (as an arbitrator)

"The CBA, which the NFLPA agreed to in 2011, expressly allows Goodell to hear all appeals. He used to allow former commissioner Paul Tagliabue to preside over certain appeals, but that likely won’t happen again after Tagliabue overturned all of the player suspensions in Bountygate and offered a stern rebuke of Goodell. Goodell also has handed appeals to former NFL executive Harold Henderson in the past, but Henderson’s decision in the Peterson case was overturned by a federal judge."

So no laws appear to be broken. Here's expert analysis on Brady's court chances back last march-

What are Bradys chances in court?-

“There’s definitely an uphill battle in getting an arbitration award overturned — it’s nearly impossible, unless you can show bias,” Liss-Riordan said. “And I think it’s going to be pretty hard to vacate an arbitration award based on the arbitrator being biased if the CBA allows for the arbitrator to be an interested party.”

Munson said Wells was “very careful and very conservative” with his conclusions in his report, and the NFL has a compelling argument against the “unfair punishment” claim from Brady.

“The NFL would come back and say he lied to the investigators, he obstructed the investigation, and he was guilty on the footballs,” Munson said. “So they would say, those three things qualify him for the four-game suspension. I don’t see excessive punishment as a strong argument for Brady.”

Two more things, Judge Doty (Minnesota) is on Senior status and doesn't hear cases anymore, and the NFL is appealing Judge Doty's overturning of the Adrian Peterson case, in that they beleive judge Doty didn't have authority to overturn a binding arbitration decision.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/26/nfl-appeals-ruling-in-adrian-peterson-case/

So the only case where arbitration was overturned (Taglibue did one, and the other with a neutral arbitrator they lost the case) in Federal court may disappear too.

I didn't know that about Doty. That must be a recent development.

[crazycolt1]

Now I know why so many have left this board over the years.

28-0 in the second half .

Please. If you honestly think that this PSI issue, which has already been crushed by numerous scientific groups , will tarnish Brady, I'd simply point to Elway, whose team cheated in a much worse manner. How's his legacy?

Your deflection does not surprise me. In the past you didn't do that but it seems you have joined that group now. Congrads! But the way the board have lost afew but it has more members that ever so don't get your hopes up.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I didn't know that about Doty. That must be a recent development.

 

I amended my post trying to verify.  I've only seen one report that stated that, and that NFLPA would then choose to file in MA for the home field advatage instead.  So  it really isn't determined whether Doty  has stopped hearing NFL cases. It may have been reported incorrectly.

 

EDIT: Further searches make it appear erroneous.  Mea culpa, until proven otherwise I guess. :-(

[dw49]

Sure.  The question is whether a defendant like the NFL can file paperwork with a court to seek a favorable ruling (a judge sympathetic to their side) after the defendant's damaging acts have occurred.   meaning judge shopping.

 

The acts in question have occurred; namely defamation, violation of labor laws, etc.  Well any acts that could be deemed to be these have occurred.   The NFL then filed paperwork and I assume they are seeking a declaratory judgment asking a court that  they acted properly.   Problem is my understanding and the link provided by ColtsBlueFL in post #302 regarding this type of relief is that it is limited to before someone gets hurt.

 

So if you have a legal dispute between two parties and before anyone gets hurt or someone violated a law and its not resolved one party can go to a court and ask their advise as to who is correct.  But once someone is hurt or someone violated a law this remedy can not be sought and all that is left is whether or not the aggrieved party wishes to sue.  

 

So bottom line before anyone gets hurt either party can go to a court to seek an opinion on who is right, after someone is hurt only the aggrieved party can seek relief.

 

 

 

K.. thanks. I understand your point. However I'm not qualified to comment on how much merit it has.

[ColtRider]

Posted this question a little earlier in the thread. What I want to know is _why_ Kraft pulled away from Brady? To me, that's the bigger picture as far as who knew what and when? If this involved Kraft and Belichick knowing that Brady destroyed the phone ... YIKES!

Mr. Kraft just may have saved his winning organization along with BB by pulling out and accepting the punishment while leaving Brady out in the wind to twist.

[dw49]

Read through the summary a bit more. Pretty interesting. Goodell refutes pretty much every claim that's being made against this ruling.

 

1) He considers undermining competitive balance and the refs' ability to do their job as on par with PEDs, and applied a similar, if not more lenient, punishment to Brady. Similar suspensions for conduct detrimental were given to the Browns GM (who self-reported and fully cooperated), Joe Vitt and Sean Payton. In light of this, he considers four games "not excessive or without precedent, and is in fact fair and reasonable." 

 

2) He says the issues with Brett Favre, the Vikings in 2014 and the Jets in 2009 are of an entirely different nature, weren't carried out by a player, and never impacted the game.

 

3) He says the Game Operations Manual doesn't limit discipline to a fine, and that's not a reasonable reading of the rule.

 

4) Details of the phone being destroyed: The meeting between Brady and investigators was scheduled as of 2/28, to be held on 3/6; the investigators reiterated their previous request for access to emails and text messages; that meeting was confirmed with Brady and his reps 3/3; on 3/5 or 3/6, the phone was destroyed; on 6/18, days before the appeal hearing on 6/23, Brady's reps confirmed that the phone had been destroyed and the messages were irretrievable, and claim that this is normal practice for Brady with his phones; the day before the appeal hearing, the NFLPA submitted a report from a forensic investigator saying that he had reviewed an even older phone from Brady... This all adds up to Goodell believing that Brady lied about why he destroyed the phone, informing his belief that Brady had reason to not provide access to his phone.

 

There's more. It seems like all the ways the NFLPA is going to try to shake this ruling have been preempted by Goodell and his ruling. Was it unfair? No. Was it without precedent? No. The NFL feels like they've presented a firm case.

 

 

Yeah , I thought the same after reading it. That's why I had asked you if you read it after you had posted it. I really don't want to ruffle feathers but any reasonable person would look at what's been presented and come to the same conclusion that Goodall came to... no ?

 

I would also be very surprised if this was ultimately over turned in a courtroom. I think Brady is going to have to gamble that he can put the process into slow motion and have it not resolved by season's end. I also would not be shocked if he never takes it to court as he's guilty as all hell and it might be fully exposed.

[GoColts8818]

Posted this question a little earlier in the thread. What I want to know is _why_ Kraft pulled away from Brady? To me, that's the bigger picture as far as who knew what and when? If this involved Kraft and Belichick knowing that Brady destroyed the phone ... YIKES!

Mr. Kraft just may have saved his winning organization along with BB by pulling out and accepting the punishment while leaving Brady out in the wind to twist.

http://www.patriots.com/news/2015/07/28/statement-patriots-goodell-ruling

 

They are backing their boy.

 

I think he dropped his argument against the league because he knew that 31 other owners (or at least most of them) were not on his side and he would forever lose his standing as a powerful owner if he tried to take on the 31 other owners in court over the matter. 

[Yehoodi]

Good heavens.

 

No, I'm not trolling. You described a matter that would be handled in criminal court, then when countered with the fact that the Brady situation is a civil matter, you decided that 'we're talking about both criminal and civil.' We're not. The Brady situation is civil, only. Not criminal. So how a criminal matter would be handled doesn't matter. Again, that was the other poster's point. Civil, not criminal. Really simple.

 

As for whether it's appropriate for the NFL to request a confirmation of their ruling, and which court will have jurisdiction, that will all be determined by the courts. It's not really pertinent at this point. 

 

But I do find it curious that the NFL asking for confirmation of their ruling is a problem to certain fans, but a player running to a historically favorable court is totally okay. 

 

You are a pistol.

 

Gees, for the third time here is my original post on the matter, paragraph #2, 203. reads as follows: 

 

"I see you at your mailbox and you make a deflategate joke.  I get a tire iron out of my car, punch you in the nose, whack your right hand with the tire iron and thereafter find out you are a concert pianist.  Fearing that the damage to your hand may cause lost wages over the federal court jurisdiction limit for filing in federal court and I want to do something about it.  In this particular case two federal court have jurisdiction, the one with jurisdiction over the location (where you live) and with the power over me (where l live)."

 

Knowing the federal court in your jurisdiction has plaintiff friendly judges and the federal court in my home state has defendant friendly judges.  I immediately fly home and before the end of the day file paperwork asking my home federal court to determine if I did anything wrong.   I am not sure what standing I would have, what my cause of action would be, and what form who the complaint take.  Do you?"

 

First off I mentioned money damages (a pianist damaged hand - he can't play and get paid), translation - civil (not to mention the fact that money damages are not an element to the crime of A&BDW, so why would I mention money damages unless I was referring to a civil case?).  Second I mentioned federal court jurisdiction limits, again civil, what is needed for diversity jurisdiction - civil.  Third, I mention a defendant picking a court of his choosing, something a criminal defendant cant not do initially (the state does that).  Fourth, I mentioned a crime that would only be charged criminally in state court, but as talking federal it can only be civil that I am referring too.  Fifth, this is a thread about civil cases and what a civil defendant can do.  And last but not least I mention "plaintiff"  there NO PLAINTIFFS in criminal cases, its the STATE (fed or state) and the criminal defendant.  It is ONLY in CIVIL cases that we have plaintiffs. 

 

So I was referring to a civil case.  I neglected to use the magic word "civil" but thought it was obvious based on all of the above, and I wanted to try to be brief in my posts tonight, which has now gone out the window.   .  So sorry for not using buzz words, but I was talking about a civil case as you can see.

 

As for judge shopping, that sadly is in the hands of the plaintiffs and do understand where the NFL and you are coming from, it will be interesting to see if this sets a precedent if this is indeed a case of first impression.   

 

And yes it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  My gut feeling is that this might be case of first impression.  It would be one thing if this were a different type of civil case, like my breaking the pianist's hands, and it getting near the end of the statute of limitations and I wanted to get a ruling for peace of mind or something.  But any resolution on this matter will start tomorrow with the filing by Brady there is no need for the NFL to file anything seeking a resolution.   I do not see how one can boot strap a declaratory judgment to the full blown case, especially if the same is filed in close proximity to the declaratory judgment.  It would make sense to me that the judge handling the declaratory judgment would dismiss the case without prejudice for the findings to be found in the other case filed by the plaintiff.  But time will tell and we will be getting answers to this question in the upcoming weeks.   

[Yehoodi]

K.. thanks. I understand your point. However I'm not qualified to comment on how much merit it has.

 

Your welcome.

 

Yah I do know the answer 100% either.  It will be interesting to follow, it might be a case of first impression.

 

My gut feeling is that as the underlying case will be filed within 24 hours of the NFL's filing that the judge in the NFL filing will dismiss the case without prejudice with the determination to be found in the underlying case filing.

[dw49]

You are a pistol.

 

Gees, for the third time here is my original post on the matter, paragraph #2, 203. reads as follows: 

 

"I see you at your mailbox and you make a deflategate joke.  I get a tire iron out of my car, punch you in the nose, whack your right hand with the tire iron and thereafter find out you are a concert pianist.  Fearing that the damage to your hand may cause lost wages over the federal court jurisdiction limit for filing in federal court and I want to do something about it.  In this particular case two federal court have jurisdiction, the one with jurisdiction over the location (where you live) and with the power over me (where l live)."

 

Knowing the federal court in your jurisdiction has plaintiff friendly judges and the federal court in my home state has defendant friendly judges.  I immediately fly home and before the end of the day file paperwork asking my home federal court to determine if I did anything wrong.   I am not sure what standing I would have, what my cause of action would be, and what form who the complaint take.  Do you?"

 

First off I mentioned money damages (a pianist damaged hand - he can't play and get paid), translation - civil (not to mention the fact that money damages are not an element to the crime of A&BDW, so why would I mention money damages unless I was referring to a civil case?).  Second I mentioned federal court jurisdiction limits, again civil, what is needed for diversity jurisdiction - civil.  Third, I mention a defendant picking a court of his choosing, something a criminal defendant cant not do initially (the state does that).  Fourth, I mentioned a crime that would only be charged criminally in state court, but as talking federal it can only be civil that I am referring too.  Fifth, this is a thread about civil cases and what a civil defendant can do.  And last but not least I mention "plaintiff"  there NO PLAINTIFFS in criminal cases, its the STATE (fed or state) and the criminal defendant.  It is ONLY in CIVIL cases that we have plaintiffs. 

 

So I was referring to a civil case.  I neglected to use the magic word "civil" but thought it was obvious based on all of the above, and I wanted to try to be brief in my posts tonight, which has now gone out the window.   .  So sorry for not using buzz words, but I was talking about a civil case as you can see.

 

As for judge shopping, that sadly is in the hands of the plaintiffs and do understand where the NFL and you are coming from, it will be interesting to see if this sets a precedent if this is indeed a case of first impression.   

 

And yes it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  My gut feeling is that this might be case of first impression.  It would be one thing if this were a different type of civil case, like my breaking the pianist's hands, and it getting near the end of the statute of limitations and I wanted to get a ruling for peace of mind or something.  But any resolution on this matter will start tomorrow with the filing by Brady there is no need for the NFL to file anything seeking a resolution.   I do not see how one can boot strap a declaratory judgment to the full blown case, especially if the same is filed in close proximity to the declaratory judgment.  It would make sense to me that the judge handling the declaratory judgment would dismiss the case without prejudice for the findings to be found in the other case filed by the plaintiff.  But time will tell and we will be getting answers to this question in the upcoming weeks.   

 

 

I'm being told this will be the final damning evidence...

 

 

 

Tom Brady wrecks his phone pic.twitter.com/TvBwNb08pU (https://twitter.com/DrawPlayDave/status/626130094356992000?s=17)

[Yehoodi]

Posted this question a little earlier in the thread. What I want to know is _why_ Kraft pulled away from Brady? To me, that's the bigger picture as far as who knew what and when? If this involved Kraft and Belichick knowing that Brady destroyed the phone ... YIKES!

Mr. Kraft just may have saved his winning organization along with BB by pulling out and accepting the punishment while leaving Brady out in the wind to twist.

 

Yah it could be any number of things ranging from an innocent I can not sue my league lest I set a precedent that other owners would want to sue when they feel jobbed by the commissioner, to he did not want to have too many things on the table, to he was given more damaging information at the owners meeting.

 

Time will tell and hopefully we will be able to get a clearer picture on things as time moves forward.

[jabbanobadda]

Now I know why so many have left this board over the years.

 

And yet you feel the need to stick around...hmmmm.

[basspapaw]

Give me a break. He tore up the best defense in football in the SB. He has been a winner ever since he got his first start...and his stats are up there with the greatest of all time. You don't go to 6 SBs by just cheating alone. The PSI had nothing to do with us getting crushed..guy is a winner....but yeah...he isn't acting like an innocent man (and likely isnt)...but what has happened on the field happened on the field...and he won. He likely made some poor choices with this situation but he wasn't the one that cheated with the Spygate thing. Thats on Bill...not Tom.

He would not have won near as much without cheating!

[dw49]

Your welcome.

 

Yah I do know the answer 100% either.  It will be interesting to follow, it might be a case of first impression.

 

My gut feeling is that as the underlying case will be filed within 24 hours of the NFL's filing that the judge in the NFL filing will dismiss the case without prejudice with the determination to be found in the underlying case filing.

 

 

That would not surprise me.

[Bubbz]

If you are still defending Brady, it's time you came to a certain level of acceptance. He cheated and made himself look like a bigger jerk in the process.

[jabbanobadda]

Two things I've learned today...

1. 95% of the members on this forum are lawyers...I mean WOW!!!!

 

2.  The Patriots and their fans really love science...I mean really love it!!!

[ColtRider]

http://www.patriots.com/news/2015/07/28/statement-patriots-goodell-ruling

 

They are backing their boy.

 

I think he dropped his argument against the league because he knew that 31 other owners (or at least most of them) were not on his side and he would forever lose his standing as a powerful owner if he tried to take on the 31 other owners in court over the matter.

Thanks, GC8818, for the link. Yeah, I knew they were backing him from the get-go. It still makes me wonder if this was the real reason for Kraft's decision to pull out. Whether it was the rest of the 31 owners pressure or knowing what Brady had done with the phone, I guess we'll never find out. It just makes me wonder why he bowed out to relinquish $1 million and the loss of draft picks so quickly.

[GoColts8818]

Thanks, GC8818, for the link. Yeah, I knew they were backing him from the get-go. It still makes me wonder if this was the real reason for Kraft's decision to pull out. Whether it was the rest of the 31 owners pressure or knowing what Brady had done with the phone, I guess we'll never find out. It just makes me wonder why he bowed out to relinquish $1 million and the loss of draft picks so quickly.

I think he dropped out because Goodell and other owners got his ear and said look if you press this it's going to make the league look really bad and don't think the other owners are going to forget who gave them a black eye and oh they aren't very happy with your team for cheating again in the first place. 

 

They have never really dropped their support of Brady.  Even when Kraft said they were dropping their challenge to the team punishments they said Brady would keep challenging his punishment and was very clear in that point. 

[jabbanobadda]

Thanks for posting the link to that legal dictionary site.

 

If we look at the very first paragraph we see why I am troubled but what the NFL did is a proper use of a seeking a Declaratory Judgment.

 

The first paragraph leads off in pertinent part as follows:

 

"Individuals may seek a declaratory judgment after a legal controversy has arisen but before any damages have occurred or any laws have been violated." (emphasis added).

 

So as I read that particular definition of the declaratory judgment relief it can only be sought prior to any damages incurred and/or violation of a law.   The problem with the instant case is that they have damages (Brady's/Pats reputation and lost games) and laws violated (if Goodell violated labor laws by hearing the appeal, etc).   Now for the moment I am not saying 100% this are true, but if there are deemed to have happen by a court of law in Brady's law suit, then they happened and happened at a time prior to the filing of the paperwork by the NFL.

 

If the NFL is deemed to have violated labor laws by having Goodell hear the appeal, they violated this law at least as soon as today and frankly back when he decided to hear the appeal.  As for the damage to rep that could far back as not responding to Mortenson's 2 psig below spec report.  but either way both of these actions occurred prior to today's filing.

 

Things might stand on a different footing for me, had none of this been made public and there were private meetings between the parties and there was a legal dispute as to what Goodell could hear and what suspension could be imposed, and there was a legal dispute as to what could be done, nothing got resolved and prior to going public and making a decision the NFL went to a court to seek guidance on the matter, maybe things would be different as you would have a dispute and before any damages or labor law violations one party sought an opinion from a court. 

 

Gets back to my point about painting Supes' house.   If we have a dispute on a clause in the contract, I might have an option to seek an opinion from the court, but if just ignore it, think he is wrong, don't paint his house and he has to find another painter costing him $1000 over our contract price he can come after me for $1,000 in cover damages.   I can't then seek an opinion from a court imo.

 

So once the damage is done, be it not painting a house, breaking a pianist's hand, or violation labor laws/defamation, I do no see how a declaratory judgment is something that can be sought.   

 

If this is true, which I think that it is, it would kind of ironic.  The NFL, teams and fans talked about integrity, fairness, and loopholes when they were referring to what the pats did and their formations, the NFL then outlawed the formation much to the praise of fans and teams of other cities.  Now the NFL itself is trying to use a remedy not for what it was originally intended in the hopes to get favorable results.  I find that ironic and frankly hypocrisy.

 

Holy crap you are reaching.  You can't possibly believe any of this, right?

[RockThatBlue]

rtBreer 5m5 minutes ago

Statement from the Patriots (no name attached) pic.twitter.com/e16r6ysiKQ

I stopped reading halfway thru the first sentence of that joke of a statement

[Colts_Fan12]

This guy is a joke everything he has done goes right in the toilet what s bug * baby

[RockThatBlue]

Yes, it's a something to put on notice, but in no way did it impact the game.

If another team did the same crime, it would get no where the same attention this case has.

Nobody says it impacted the game. And your second sentence is only true since no other team has been caught cheating 1000 times like the patriots. And then lying about it.

[RockThatBlue]

Except that Brady offered to provide printouts of every text.

Goodell didn't accept that. So, yes, Bradyndid offer to give the NFL the text messages themselves.

You guys are just making up stuff now.

[Jules]

Two things I've learned today...

1. 95% of the members on this forum are lawyers...I mean WOW!!!!

 

2.  The Patriots and their fans really love science...I mean really love it!!!

 

^^^

This

[crazycolt1]

Does it really surprise anyone that the ones who support Brady even after all of this are seemingly blind? It's like they overlook things that common sense would suggest. It is a never ending stream of deflections and out and out lies. Some put out reports where it is obvious the writer of the article is grasping at anything and everything to sell his story and knows the blind Patriot fans will buy and eat it up. With the bias that New England fans and media have it is impossible to believe that so many are so full of fandom that the truth will never dawn on them. They have taken this so far they will never realize the truth no matter what the finale outcome brings. It will always be in their minds that the NFL and the whole world is out to get the Patriots. The reasons are so numerous I will not list them as we have all heard them in a never ending stream of denial excuses. After giving this some deep thought I have turned over a new leaf in dealing with those who refuse to see the truth. I will humor them like I would a child. I will not to attempt to argue or debate this matter with any Patriots fan. Some of them seem to think they have this all figured out and Mr. Superman Brady will show all who is king. We shall see.

[weslo1812]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13332578/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-nflpa-likely-come-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision

Good little read on why it's highly unlikely Brady is gonna win in Court. He's dug himself into a hole that is faaaar to big to get out of now. And to think all he had to do was be honest at the beginning and admit he did wrong, or give over what evidence was being asked for and completey prove his innocence and all this all would have been over by now. But nope... let's try and play cover up instead. Nobody to blame but himself... it's plain and simple.

[Colts_Fan12]

Again, Brady offered to provide the entire text message log to the NFL.

you crack me up I just die with laughter every time I read your stupid posts like this. keep it up you and AM are really putting on a good show for us colts fans free of charge

[dw49]

Does it really surprise anyone that the ones who support Brady even after all of this are seemingly blind? It's like they overlook things that common sense would suggest. It is a never ending stream of deflections and out and out lies. Some put out reports where it is obvious the writer of the article is grasping at anything and everything to sell his story and knows the blind Patriot fans will buy and eat it up. With the bias that New England fans and media have it is impossible to believe that so many are so full of fandom that the truth will never dawn on them. They have taken this so far they will never realize the truth no matter what the finale outcome brings. It will always be in their minds that the NFL and the whole world is out to get the Patriots. The reasons are so numerous I will not list them as we have all heard them in a never ending stream of denial excuses. After giving this some deep thought I have turned over a new leaf in dealing with those who refuse to see the truth. I will humor them like I would a child. I will not to attempt to argue or debate this matter with any Patriots fan. Some of them seem to think they have this all figured out and Mr. Superman Brady will show all who is king. We shall see.

 

 

Funny thing is "they " will say things like "there was no proof" when the burden is "more likely than not." Fact is if it were a criminal court of law (beyond a reasonable doubt)  a jury of 12 would convict him in about 12 minutes on all that circumstantial evidence.