guard vs pass rusher

[CR91]

seeing how these two are our biggest needs which do you feel should be our first pick

[FightLikeSin]

Pass rusher. All day.

[Colts_Fan12]

Guard but only if Cooper or Warmack are there if they are gone go OLB

[NewColtsFan]

Cooper and Warmack are both likely gone in the first dozen or so picks....   hard to imagine one sliding all the way down to 24....

 

So,  that leaves pass rusher....   and here we run into scheme/fit issues...

 

Are players like Datone Jones and Margus Hunt capable of playing in our system?    Dunno?

 

Can Jarvis Jones be effective in our system?    Dunno?

 

Can players like Sylvester Williams or Kawann Short capable being DE's instead of a NT?     Dunno?

 

Can players like Werner and Carradine switch from 4-3 DE or OLB?      Dunno?

 

Too many question marks.    I'm sure Grigson and his guys have answers....   but this draft is confounding to me....   way more questions than answers....   I simply don't have a good feel for how we'll handle everything....

[BOTT]

Depends on who is available....but all things being equal a pass rusher is much more valuable.

[Buck Showalter]

prob get the best OG or OLB available, or get a S or ILB if there is a real good one available...

Hope Grigson just gets a good player, hope he keeps the stat alive with the 24th pick becoming a pro-bowler...

[Dustin]

BPA.

[Luckynumber12]

If warmack or cooper fall to us id run the card up to godell very quickly and choose warmack but if gone i could see carradine play well as OLB  or Damontre Moore everyone thinks hes not first round talent cuz of combine  clearly he is first round talent his tape displays it all he can easily excel as a pass rusher  but if not i wouldnt mind us getting a guy like Jesse williams or johnathon hankins to really solidify the NT position for years to come

[james_zeigler1994]

Pass rusher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

[coltsfanatic24]

Even if Warmack and Cooper are available ill still take Jarvis Jones, Datone Jones,Carradine, or Xavier Rhodes before them. Pass rushers and CB's are more valuable positions then guards.

[FightLikeSin]

Cooper and Warmack are both likely gone in the first dozen or so picks....   hard to imagine one sliding all the way down to 24....

 

So,  that leaves pass rusher....   and here we run into scheme/fit issues...

 

Are players like Datone Jones and Margus Hunt capable of playing in our system?    Dunno?

 

Can Jarvis Jones be effective in our system?    Dunno?

 

Can players like Sylvester Williams or Kawann Short capable being DE's instead of a NT?     Dunno?

 

Can players like Werner and Carradine switch from 4-3 DE or OLB?      Dunno?

 

Too many question marks.    I'm sure Grigson and his guys have answers....   but this draft is confounding to me....   way more questions than answers....   I simply don't have a good feel for how we'll handle everything....

 

1. Jones and Hunt would be awkward in our scheme I believe. But the fact that they brought Hunt in for a visit tells me that they see a role for him. Although, I don't think he's worth a 1st round pick. Jones is just under-sized for my liking. 

 

2. Jarvis Jones played a rush OLB in a 3-4 in Georgia. Not sure what the question is about this pick. He'd be huge for our defense.

 

3. Williams can play DE in a 3-4 and Short has played all over the line in both 3-4 and 4-3 sets at Purdue. Short would more than likely line up at DE in our 3-4 packages and then at DT in our 4-3 packages. Although, he could also play NT if we needed him too. That's why I'm a big fan, he's effective and versatile. 

 

4. Sure, Werner and Carradine can stand up. 3-4 OLB is not a common position in college football, so there aren't a lot of players that get to experience it (Aldon Smith, Anthony Spencer etc). But both of those guys are great pass rushers and we'd be lucky to have them if they are available in the 1st round. 

[gacker65]

I hope our 1st pick is OG.  I do not care if it's Warmack, Cooper, or we trade back for Warford in the 2nd rd.  I want to see how our front 7 on Defense plays before I draft a DE, DT or OLB in the 1st rd.  We spent FA upgrading the Defensive front 7, so now let's see if that was the correct way to go.

[Mameluc]

to me is a no brainer...Pass rusher way more valuable than OG.

[Colts_Fan12]

As I said earlier and many times before I want Cooper but if him and Warmack are gone I would be happy with an OLB or ILB or a DE to possibly replace Redding when he is done then hopefully draft Winters in the 3rd

[Archer]

I vote OG, to the point that I would sit pat and take Larry Warford of Kentucky.  I don't see any great opportunity cost to doing that, since it's such a top-heavy first round this year.  Who would I want to fall at a pass-rush spot?  Jarvis Jones?  He had surpisingly little athleticism in workouts for a 1st round pass-rushing OLB - 30.5" vertical and 4.91 forty.  His 4.71 short shuttle isn't horrible, but not indicative of top athleticism.  I worry about a guy like that being a much better collegian than pro.  Demontre Moore?  He'd be off my draft board due to his laziness/character concerns alone.  Datone Jones?  This is the most befuddling of all!  Here's a guy with great upside due to his great athletic skills.  But prior to last season he had been so pedestrian that he wasn't considered draftable.  I just don't think that any good pass-rushers will be available at #24, even if I considered it a top need (which I don't).

[funktacious2]

Pass Rusher, but unless some one great falls to us I'm really hoping we draft a different position. I don't want to reach.

[chad72]

Cooper and Warmack are both likely gone in the first dozen or so picks....   hard to imagine one sliding all the way down to 24....

 

So,  that leaves pass rusher....   and here we run into scheme/fit issues...

 

Are players like Datone Jones and Margus Hunt capable of playing in our system?    Dunno?

 

Can Jarvis Jones be effective in our system?    Dunno?

 

Can players like Sylvester Williams or Kawann Short capable being DE's instead of a NT?     Dunno?

 

Can players like Werner and Carradine switch from 4-3 DE or OLB?      Dunno?

 

Too many question marks.    I'm sure Grigson and his guys have answers....   but this draft is confounding to me....   way more questions than answers....   I simply don't have a good feel for how we'll handle everything....

 

That is why you run, I throw, you catch works . WR. Less questions, easier to evaluate, j/k

 

Sylvester Williams probably does not need to come off the field at all like Ricky Jean Francois and can be on the field being moved across the DL as 4-3 NT or 3-4 DE. RJF will play 3-4 DE and move to 4-3 UT, IMO.

[Gavin]

If Cooper is there i'd pick him, you have to protect your franchise QB and be able to run the ball. If he is not there then Jarvis Jones no question about it, I dont see how anyone would think he cant fit in our scheme.....He did the same thing at Georgia

[NewColtsFan]

1. Jones and Hunt would be awkward in our scheme I believe. But the fact that they brought Hunt in for a visit tells me that they see a role for him. Although, I don't think he's worth a 1st round pick. Jones is just under-sized for my liking. 

 

2. Jarvis Jones played a rush OLB in a 3-4 in Georgia. Not sure what the question is about this pick. He'd be huge for our defense.

 

3. Williams can play DE in a 3-4 and Short has played all over the line in both 3-4 and 4-3 sets at Purdue. Short would more than likely line up at DE in our 3-4 packages and then at DT in our 4-3 packages. Although, he could also play NT if we needed him too. That's why I'm a big fan, he's effective and versatile. 

 

4. Sure, Werner and Carradine can stand up. 3-4 OLB is not a common position in college football, so there aren't a lot of players that get to experience it (Aldon Smith, Anthony Spencer etc). But both of those guys are great pass rushers and we'd be lucky to have them if they are available in the 1st round. 

 

 

Thanks for the very good and detailed response.   But the sentence you wrote that I put into bold has me scratching my head.

 

3-4 OLB is not common in college football?    Huh?     What do you think schools that play a 3-4 are calling that spot?   OLB.  So, your comment has lost me.   Perhaps there's an explanation?

 

As for Werner and Carradine....   they're 4-3 DE's who play with their hand on the ground.   The history of those guys suddenly playing stand-up OLB is spotty.   Not all can make that conversion.   Some have never had to play in that kind of space.  Never had to back-peddle.   Never had to cover the flat.    It's a whole new world and not ever 4-3 DE can make that change.

[HtownColt]

If its not Cooper or Warmack it's a defensive player regardless of position with our 1st pick. I would be shocked if our 1st pick trade back or not is an OL not named Cooper/Warmack/Fluker

[bavanlan]

seeing how these two are our biggest needs which do you feel should be our first pick

 

If forced to pick between pass rusher and OG the answer is whichever one is better.

 

Clearly.

[BOTT]

Thanks for the very good and detailed response.   But the sentence you wrote that I put into bold has me scratching my head.

 

3-4 OLB is not common in college football?    Huh?     What do you think schools that play a 3-4 are calling that spot?   OLB.  So, your comment has lost me.   Perhaps there's an explanation?

 

As for Werner and Carradine....   they're 4-3 DE's who play with their hand on the ground.   The history of those guys suddenly playing stand-up OLB is spotty.   Not all can make that conversion.   Some have never had to play in that kind of space.  Never had to back-peddle.   Never had to cover the flat.    It's a whole new world and not ever 4-3 DE can make that change.

Think he is saying that not many teams in college play a 34 defense

[NewColtsFan]

Think he is saying that not many teams in college play a 34 defense

 

 

If that's what he's saying, I don't believe that's true at all.

 

I don't even think it's close to being true.      That said,  I'm not going to call through each team of the Big Six conferences and do a detailed team by team break down....   but I believe he's incorrect if that's what he's saying....

[BOTT]

If that's what he's saying, I don't believe that's true at all.

 

I don't even think it's close to being true.      That said,  I'm not going to call through each team of the Big Six conferences and do a detailed team by team break down....   but I believe he's incorrect if that's what he's saying....

I think it used to be very rare, but the 34 seems to have increased that last several years. I would imagine its still quite the minority, but I could be wrong.

[ponyboy]

Not a huge difference between players in the 24-60 range..  Unless somebody slides and there's a value at #24,  I'd like to see a trade for high-mid #2,#3 and get both.

[Steagles]

I hope we go defense in the first round. I would like to see us pick up either one of the corners (Rhodes, preferably) or a pass rusher, specifically Jarvis Jones. I do think however, that if we were to trade back, we could get Fluker and Jones from Alabama in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. That would be ideal. I don't even care that we would be reaching for them.

[Steagles]

I hope we go defense in the first round. I would like to see us pick up either one of the corners (Rhodes, preferably) or a pass rusher, specifically Jarvis Jones. I do think however, that if we were to trade back, we could get Fluker and Jones from Alabama in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. That would be ideal. I don't even care that we would be reaching for them.

Fluker? I didn't mean Fluker... I don't even remember who I meant.

However, I still wouldn't complain about taking Barrett Jones in the 2nd if we traded into the second.

[Mr. Blue]

Pass rusher all day, ever day. Without a pass rush, no defense in today's NFL can be any good.

[FightLikeSin]

Thanks for the very good and detailed response.   But the sentence you wrote that I put into bold has me scratching my head.

 

3-4 OLB is not common in college football?    Huh?     What do you think schools that play a 3-4 are calling that spot?   OLB.  So, your comment has lost me.   Perhaps there's an explanation?

 

As for Werner and Carradine....   they're 4-3 DE's who play with their hand on the ground.   The history of those guys suddenly playing stand-up OLB is spotty.   Not all can make that conversion.   Some have never had to play in that kind of space.  Never had to back-peddle.   Never had to cover the flat.    It's a whole new world and not ever 4-3 DE can make that change.

 

Sure. If you look back at a 3-4 linebacker's college history, you'll see they played a lot of 4-3 DE in college. You have the occasional Jarvis Jones and maybe a Jerry Hughes who got a little more exposure, but usually a pass rusher is a pass rusher. It's going to mostly depend on your burst/block shedding/speed at the end of the day. Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan, Terrell Suggs...all those guys were DE's in college. Suggs actually had the opportunity to stand up in some packages, but I know for sure that Kerrigan never stood up. I watched him every Saturday in person. 

 

So all i'm saying is, players don't forget how to play football when they get asked to go to a 2-point stance as opposed to a 3 point stance if their college was in a 4-3. They can adapt to a 3-4 OLB position if the height/weight is there. 4-3 defense is still the most common defense in college and as a result, you won't see many prospects who fit the mold of a 3-4 OLB who have actually played it in college.

[NewColtsFan]

Sure. If you look back at a 3-4 linebacker's college history, you'll see they played a lot of 4-3 DE in college. You have the occasional Jarvis Jones and maybe a Jerry Hughes who got a little more exposure, but usually a pass rusher is a pass rusher. It's going to mostly depend on your burst/block shedding/speed at the end of the day. Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan, Terrell Suggs...all those guys were DE's in college. Suggs actually had the opportunity to stand up in some packages, but I know for sure that Kerrigan never stood up. I watched him every Saturday in person. 

 

So all i'm saying is, players don't forget how to play football when they get asked to go to a 2-point stance as opposed to a 3 point stance if their college was in a 4-3. They can adapt to a 3-4 OLB position if the height/weight is there. 4-3 defense is still the most common defense in college and as a result, you won't see many prospects who fit the mold of a 3-4 OLB who have actually played it in college.

 

 

I normally like your posts....   but respectfully,  I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one....

 

Not that big a deal to me,  but there are plenty of schools that play a 3-4 scheme...   I don't think it's nearly as uncommon as you seem to think it is...

[Gavin]

I think the point FightLikeSin was trying to make didn't have anything to do with how many teams played in a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3 but was more to the point that alot of 3-4 hybrid OLB's were actuallyy DE's in college, Thats what I got from his post anyway

[FightLikeSin]

I normally like your posts....   but respectfully,  I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one....

 

Not that big a deal to me,  but there are plenty of schools that play a 3-4 scheme...   I don't think it's nearly as uncommon as you seem to think it is...

 

I don't think we need to disagree. I'm not saying that the 3-4 scheme is scarce in college football. I'm saying the players who can play 3-4 OLB are not reserved only for those who played it in college. You are making an argument against Werner and Carradine. I'm telling you that just because they were 4-3 DE's in college only means that they have that in common with many great 3-4 OLB's in the NFL who had never dropped back in coverage in college either. It's the scouts job to identify if they are a one-trick pony or if they have the athleticism to play OLB. Usually that's what drills at the combine and private workouts will reveal. 

[Gavin]

I don't think we need to disagree. I'm not saying that the 3-4 scheme is scarce in college football. I'm saying the players who can play 3-4 OLB are not reserved only for those who played it in college. You are making an argument against Werner and Carradine. I'm telling you that just because they were 4-3 DE's in college only means that they have that in common with many great 3-4 OLB's in the NFL who had never dropped back in coverage in college either. It's the scouts job to identify if they are a one-trick pony or if they have the athleticism to play OLB. Usually that's what drills at the combine and private workouts will reveal. 

That along with ability to flip the hips on a sudden change of direction while having lateral speed as well as strength to hold your ground in containment

[pacolts56]

We should draft whoever the BPA is.

 

And no.....in this draft the BPA at #24 won't be a QB.

[Jason_]

We should draft whoever the BPA is.

 

And no.....in this draft the BPA at #24 won't be a QB.

 

Well if the BPA is a TE then I say we skip to #2 BPA

[Jason_]

I don't think we need to disagree. I'm not saying that the 3-4 scheme is scarce in college football. I'm saying the players who can play 3-4 OLB are not reserved only for those who played it in college. You are making an argument against Werner and Carradine. I'm telling you that just because they were 4-3 DE's in college only means that they have that in common with many great 3-4 OLB's in the NFL who had never dropped back in coverage in college either. It's the scouts job to identify if they are a one-trick pony or if they have the athleticism to play OLB. Usually that's what drills at the combine and private workouts will reveal. 

 

I agree with the point you're trying to make...I would think there are far more successful NFL 3-4 OLB's that played DE in college than there are successful 3-4 OLB's who played OLB in college.  The way defenses are evolving, DE's, and even DT's at times, in a 4 man front will drop back to cover a short zone from time to time.  I think a lot of it depends on which 3-4  OLB spot you're wanting to fill. The SOLB and Rush LB have different responsibilities, and a Rush LB is essentially a pass rushing end.  He may be asked to drop back into coverage a small percentage more often than if he were playing DE in a 4-3 but essentially his primary job is get to the QB and set the edge against the run..and both of these are typical responsibilities of a 4-3 DE as well as a 3-4 Rush LB, even though many of us Colts fans wouldn't know that after years watching Mathis and Freeney who never bothered to, or were never asked to worry much about setting the edge.

[Stewart Cole]

Depends on whom we think will be available for us in the 3rd round. Do we also focus on replacing next years free agents. Just have to wait and see how our internal draft mock analysis of all team needs and calculate our best chance to select a player that fits our team's system.

[NewColtsFan]

I don't think we need to disagree. I'm not saying that the 3-4 scheme is scarce in college football. I'm saying the players who can play 3-4 OLB are not reserved only for those who played it in college. You are making an argument against Werner and Carradine. I'm telling you that just because they were 4-3 DE's in college only means that they have that in common with many great 3-4 OLB's in the NFL who had never dropped back in coverage in college either. It's the scouts job to identify if they are a one-trick pony or if they have the athleticism to play OLB. Usually that's what drills at the combine and private workouts will reveal. 

 

 

Yes.....  on that we agree....  

 

I just think there are some here (not necessarily you)  who think most any 4-3 DE can be converted to a 3-4 OLB.    After all,  they think it's no big deal from playing standing up as opposed to being in a 3 or 4 point stance.    I think those people would be surprised at the large number of players who can not make that conversion....

 

Hope that clarifies some....

[Jason_]

Yes.....  on that we agree....  

 

I just think there are some here (not necessarily you)  who think most any 4-3 DE can be converted to a 3-4 OLB.    After all,  they think it's no big deal from playing standing up as opposed to being in a 3 or 4 point stance.    I think those people would be surprised at the large number of players who can not make that conversion....

 

Hope that clarifies some....

 

That's a fair point, but at the same time I also think there are some here who are stuck on the terms OLB and DE and thinking that one cannot play the other and vice versa.  It can easily be seen that with the Ravens over the years, and the Colts last year, that the "Rush LB" played both from a 2 and 3 point stance and they rush the passer much more often than doing anything else. If a guy can rush the passer then he can be effective in the Colts' system.  Therefore I do think there are some who take the positional names way too seriously.  Ours is a hybrid system and therefore the majority of players (in the front 7 anyway) are hybrid players.

[PrincetonTiger]

BPA