TJ Green

[Superman]

11 minutes ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

Again I should clarify. I meant teams continuously signing DHB after he's shown to be imo a bust. My bad 

 

At what point do you separate a player from his draft spot?

 

DHB has had productive seasons, and has been a low level signing since he left the Raiders. The Colts signed him to be their #3, and he's been deep on everyone's depth chart since then. He's also pretty good on special teams. Should he just be out of the league because he was drafted too high? Why wouldn't NFL teams want a hard working depth receiver and special teams contributor for relatively cheap?

[Jdubu]

Dear lord there are a lot of super talent evaluators on here who know more than NFL scouts and analysts. It was said all along that Green was going to be raw but had so much ceiling that they were taking the risk. Analysts claimed he was a 2nd round talent and some iirc even mentioned late 1st. I for the life of me can't understand how so many on here get so anxious to be first in with pointing out a bust instead of waiting for at least the second year to see how he learns from NFL coaching and experience. 2 things you can't teach is speed and size so if his light switch comes on, it's a good thing to have. Let's see what his learning curve looks like by middle of the season to make a fast snap judgement. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

4 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

Dear lord there are a lot of super talent evaluators on here who know more than NFL scouts and analysts. It was said all along that Green was going to be raw but had so much ceiling that they were taking the risk. Analysts claimed he was a 2nd round talent and some iirc even mentioned late 1st. I for the life of me can't understand how so many on here get so anxious to be first in with pointing out a bust instead of waiting for at least the second year to see how he learns from NFL coaching and experience. 2 things you can't teach is speed and size so if his light switch comes on, it's a good thing to have. Let's see what his learning curve looks like by middle of the season to make a fast snap judgement. 

 

People were calling him a bust before he even got fitted for his uniform.

[Jdubu]

2 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

People were calling him a bust before he even got fitted for his uniform.

Happens every year. Sometimes they are right, most times they are not but either slither away from their comment or justify why a bust is valid because player X isn't a pro bowl player yet. Insane. 

[BlueCollarColts]

I still have some faith in Green and his ability to become a solid player. Amazing how quick some people are to give up on a player.

[theanarchist]

4 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I agree with you.  I think he'll need a lot of help from the coaching staff to get to a place where we're comfortable with him.  I think Grigson and his scouts fell in love with Green's physical tools (size, speed) and thought those tools would be enough for the coaching staff to develop him into a reliable player.  My gripes with the coaching staff and their general inability to maximize talent aside, I think the only way he can be a reliable player is if we simplify things as much as possible for him because he doesn't have the instincts or experience.  Either let him play center-field as safety, roaming in the secondary and using his speed to cover and hit, or bring him into the box and let him play primarily as a run stuffer/covering short routes.  Another role where I think he could succeed is if the coaches have him add on about 20 lbs (bringing him to about 230 lbs) and let him play linebacker.  He'll still have enough speed to keep up with TEs and RBs, but could have the size to help in run support too.

 

Because of his physical tools, I think he could carve out a role with the team if the coaches really help him get there.

From what I've seen he has no instincts in coverage. I think its a mistake to play him as a Centerfielder type of S. He has the speed to do it but he, so far, has no feel for routes and the QB's eyes. I'd say he's better suited to play closer to the LOS but then that really sort of defeats the purpose of drafting a speedy S. Again, I hope he works out but I just don't see it.

[imacoltfan]

4 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

You can't use Collins as an example. He wasn't a reach where he was picked and he actually played safety all through college and was good at it. He wasn't some project player so there was reason to assume he'd get better. Can't say the same about Green.

That's exactly why you can use Collins as the example. He's played the position his entire career. You're basically conceding that a kid trying a new position can't improve year over year. Nice.

[NorthernColt]

I don't understand the hatred. First off, he was always projected as a project, so I'm not sure where these lofty expectations came from in year one. Secondly, he was thrown into starting duties regardless of him being ready or not due to injuries. Add in the fact that he had to start of one of the leagues worst defense, how did you expect him to look?

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, theanarchist said:

From what I've seen he has no instincts in coverage. I think its a mistake to play him as a Centerfielder type of S. He has the speed to do it but he, so far, has no feel for routes and the QB's eyes. I'd say he's better suited to play closer to the LOS but then that really sort of defeats the purpose of drafting a speedy S. Again, I hope he works out but I just don't see it.

I only said that because he has the athleticism to cover a lot of ground in a small amount of time.  If he's playing deep where all the action is in front of him, he can just read and react.  Read the QBs eyes, then go to wherever the ball goes.  Just a thought

[ColtsBlueFL]

12 hours ago, Colt-in-Jax said:

The NFL isn't a good place to learn on the job. You can bet any decent NFL OC is going to exploit his inexperience.

 

Coaches coach, otherwise they're not coaches.  But the college offenses not teaching proper football fundamentals and the recent NFL/NFLPA CBA reducing practice time severely (notably in pads and the two-a-days where things were taught)  make it rough.  Kids do not know NFL football, and coaches have limited time to coach them as well as prepare and install/practice the next game plan.

 

7 hours ago, Pacergeek said:

In the NFL, either you have it, or you don't. From what we saw last season, TJ isn't very good. All the signs are there of another Grigson bust. Laughable Green was picked in the 2nd Round. Probably could have gotten him in the middle rounds. Grigson was known for reaching for players

 

There are players that took time to develop in the NFL. Some things can be coached, Even some of the so called "instincts". Other things like speed, height, etc... can not be taught.

 

Coaches use classical conditioning to teach some football instincts. show them how out in the field, Set up the situations they need to learn and give them reps, etc until they display 'correct instincts' for those situations.

 

Coaches also use operant conditioning; Most every Monday following a game.  Coaches prepare film all Sunday night.  The whole team gathers together on Monday.  The Coaches use the game film in reinforcement and punishment conditioning.  Great plays get repeated (often) and lauded publicly. Conversely, terrible plays get repeated, (maybe even more often) and pointed out what did NOT go well, and what needed to be done instead. This reinforcement and feedback shapes players actions over time and also leads to the display of 'correct instincts'.

 

Some kids have picked things up earlier than others via various means. So to me, it's either 'Can you learn it, or not?'  As far as coaching, 'Can you teach it, or not?'

[TheRustonRifle#7]

This week's bash TJ Green thread....

[Defjamz26]

1 hour ago, imacoltfan said:

That's exactly why you can use Collins as the example. He's played the position his entire career. You're basically conceding that a kid trying a new position can't improve year over year. Nice.

All you're saying is that there's a bigger chance that Green will bust because he's so new to the position. We don't know if he'll be good. Plus someone learning a new position isn't worth that high of a pick. Granted you can say the same for Reddick but he's at least a proven playmaker on D. Green has proved nothing aside from the fact that he's fast, which we all knew.

[theanarchist]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

I only said that because he has the athleticism to cover a lot of ground in a small amount of time.  If he's playing deep where all the action is in front of him, he can just read and react.  Read the QBs eyes, then go to wherever the ball goes.  Just a thought

That would seem logical given his athleticism but I've been saying that his lack of instincts slows him down and works against his natural speed.

[theanarchist]

42 minutes ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

This week's bash TJ Green thread....

I don't see it weekly but probably every other week....

[dgambill]

Yet another thread on TJ.....can we just start a sticky about him and his counterpart the talented Mr. Dorsett? I feel like we have this argument every week on here. NOTHING has changed....the points on both side are still the same.

[dgambill]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

At what point do you separate a player from his draft spot?

 

DHB has had productive seasons, and has been a low level signing since he left the Raiders. The Colts signed him to be their #3, and he's been deep on everyone's depth chart since then. He's also pretty good on special teams. Should he just be out of the league because he was drafted too high? Why wouldn't NFL teams want a hard working depth receiver and special teams contributor for relatively cheap?

Exactly...he didn't ask to be drafted that high. All he has done was work hard everyday. I honestly like the guy....and he has had some good moments...even in Pittsburg. He may not have lived up to the hype set before him but he has had a good career...a lot better than most and earned every bit of his contracts since leaving Oakland.

[ColtsBlueFL]

8 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

He was drafted way too high. I think he just sucked at WR so they figured out something else for him. They decided safety because there was nothing else. And in college, FS is a position where you can just coast by on athletics alone.

 

I think that's what Green is: just an athlete. He has no business playing safety in the NFL. People keep saying that he just needs time but there are certain things you can't just learn. Instincts are one of those things, and he doesn't have them. No amount of coaching is going to fix that. I think Ballard drafts another safety high to start over Green.

 

I cannot disagree more, and my reasons are stated a couple of posts up above.

 

2 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

All you're saying is that there's a bigger chance that Green will bust because he's so new to the position. We don't know if he'll be good. Plus someone learning a new position isn't worth that high of a pick. Granted you can say the same for Reddick but he's at least a proven playmaker on D. Green has proved nothing aside from the fact that he's fast, which we all knew.

 

And tall, and in his first full season on defense was still Clemson 3rd leading tackler with 130 stops, 5 for loss, on 821 snaps in 15 games. 

 

Pagano sees the 'new' defensive back player, versatile, fast, tall, rangy, that can play run on first and second downs, then cover the 'new' athletic tight ends on 3rd and passing downs that teams can't seem to cover well anymore.  Chuck's quote-

 

"He runs a 4.34, he's going to be able to match up," Pagano said.  "He played in the slot and he has covered guys in the slot.  They talk about having the skill set to play corner, so he can go out and match up with longer, rangier guys - the big, athletic mismatch tight ends that we are seeing week in and week out.  To get a guy with this guy's skill set and cover ability, it handles those problems because you go week in and week out and you are saying, ‘Okay, who's going to take care of Gronk [Rob Gronkowski] this week and who's going to take care of this guy and the guys in our division?'  This guy gives you a ton of position flexibility, not only playing first and second down stopping the run and cover tight ends and all that, but third down and then match up the way that he can match up, that's a bonus."

 

Coaches know needs, they also want to coach.  and when they see talent they can develop take take of a need, they go after it.  So Irsay and Grigson got him.  Pat Kirwan says when you find 'your guy' you get him.  You don't chance he'll fall to later rounds then say' Hmm I can't believe the guy I really want is on the board, maybe I should think about taking him, and the team right before grabs him as you fill out your pick card.  it doesn't always work that way. The only way a guy like Green is taken the way he was is because his measurables, ceiling, and prognosis placed his grade above others, even if his skill set and experience had not.

 

If he gets cut before he gets taught, you can rightly call him bust.  But if he learn and turns out to be an early down run stuffer with the ability to drop into slot cover and drape all over monster tight ends and such (unlike shorter, heavier, and slower linebackers, even the 3 down coverage LB's peeps around here covet) then it was a major success, and maybe a new trend.  Lets see if coaches can coach, and players can lear and develop.  Nobody drafts first year All-Pros anymore.

 

 

 

 

[Coltsfanforlife12]

11 hours ago, theanarchist said:

I'm not saying this to make anyone mad. Not trying to ruffle any feathers or anything like that but I think TJ Green ends up being another Grigson bust. They drafted him 2-3 round too high. He didn't have the experience or the skills to warrant being selected in the 2nd round. He ran real fast at the combine and he caught a couple of guys from behind on his college tape(because he was burned so badly he had to make up space and catch them). I really don't see this guy panning out. Having said that I hope I'm wrong and he becomes a great player. I just don't see it happening. My problem with him is that he just doesn't seem to have any instincts in coverage. Now when he gets burned he doesn't have enough speed to catch NFL WR's.

While I take expert opinions with a groan of salt everyone loved him of the NFL experts.  They agreed that he was raw and he was a project, who shouldn't have been drafted in round two.  That said I'm holding off judgment because rookies tend to make a huge leap in year two and he wasn't supposed to play a whole lot last year.  Unfortunately due to injury he was pressed into service.

[Douzer]

2 hours ago, NorthernColt said:

I don't understand the hatred. First off, he was always projected as a project, so I'm not sure where these lofty expectations came from in year one. Secondly, he was thrown into starting duties regardless of him being ready or not due to injuries. Add in the fact that he had to start of one of the leagues worst defense, how did you expect him to look?

I agree here.  I'd also throw in that he played big minutes in preseason, then 16 games as a rookie. New to the NFL,  new city,  new to safety,  longest stretch of games in his life. I think mental and physical fatigue played into his season. I'm inclined to withhold judgement for a year. 

[Tmoney]

3 hours ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

This week's bash TJ Green thread....

I started it to be positive hahaha

[Tmoney]

Okay I've read through pretty much all of these and no one even mentions my main point to starting this thread. Any opinions on TJ Green playing a match up corner role? Against TEs and bigger WRs. At least until he potentially does develop into a deep safety, which I really dont see because it takes instincts and experience. This was not intended to start a hate thread I genuinely believe he has the footwork and agility to cover NFL talent in Man to Man coverage if he's matched up on a favorable receiver. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

8 minutes ago, Tmoney said:

Okay I've read through pretty much all of these and no one even mentions my main point to starting this thread. Any opinions on TJ Green playing a match up corner role? Against TEs and bigger WRs. At least until he potentially does develop into a deep safety, which I really dont see because it takes instincts and experience. This was not intended to start a hate thread I genuinely believe he has the footwork and agility to cover NFL talent in Man to Man coverage if he's matched up on a favorable receiver. 

 

Must have missed Pagano's quote about this in my post.  Here it is again:

 

"He runs a 4.34, he's going to be able to match up," Pagano said.  "He played in the slot and he has covered guys in the slot.  They talk about having the skill set to play corner, so he can go out and match up with longer, rangier guys - the big, athletic mismatch tight ends that we are seeing week in and week out.  To get a guy with this guy's skill set and cover ability, it handles those problems because you go week in and week out and you are saying, ‘Okay, who's going to take care of Gronk [Rob Gronkowski] this week and who's going to take care of this guy and the guys in our division?'  This guy gives you a ton of position flexibility, not only playing first and second down stopping the run and cover tight ends and all that, but third down and then match up the way that he can match up, that's a bonus."

 

Pagano has serious aspirations for the guy, but knows  it will take coaching, reps, and time to get him ready to excel in that role.

[Tmoney]

10 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Must have missed Pagano's quote about this in my post.  Here it is again:

 

"He runs a 4.34, he's going to be able to match up," Pagano said.  "He played in the slot and he has covered guys in the slot.  They talk about having the skill set to play corner, so he can go out and match up with longer, rangier guys - the big, athletic mismatch tight ends that we are seeing week in and week out.  To get a guy with this guy's skill set and cover ability, it handles those problems because you go week in and week out and you are saying, ‘Okay, who's going to take care of Gronk [Rob Gronkowski] this week and who's going to take care of this guy and the guys in our division?'  This guy gives you a ton of position flexibility, not only playing first and second down stopping the run and cover tight ends and all that, but third down and then match up the way that he can match up, that's a bonus."

 

Pagano has serious aspirations for the guy, but knows  it will take coaching, reps, and time to get him ready to excel in that role.

Thank you! I think I did see your post but seeing as tho you where quoting Chuck I didn't know if that's also the opinion you share. I totally agree with Chuck tho about him being able to match up well on bigger bodied TEs and WRs. What are your thoughts on TJ? 

[ColtsBlueFL]

1 minute ago, Tmoney said:

Thank you! I think I did see your post but seeing as tho you where quoting Chuck I didn't know if that's also the opinion you share. I totally agree with Chuck tho about him being able to match up well on bigger bodied TEs and WRs. What are your thoughts on TJ? 

 

I hadn't followed Clemson or any college football as much as I used to. But based upon his position change, fair results even though inexperienced, and his size, speed and athletic potential, I was intrigued. OTOH I was surprised he was taken in round two, but not knowledgeable to be upset. And who knows there wasn't another team that had their eye on the guy for similar reasons, and were also prepared to take him earlier rather than later as well.  And I understand that when a team/scouts/GM/coach(es) target a guy for specific reasons, they don't chance letting him get away.  So they take them when they feel prudent.  Fans and media heads react by calling it a reach on a project player.  It may be, but only time will tell, not knee jerk reactions for lack of early results.

 

I am intrigued with the potential of the guy, and the vision Pagano has for him.  I'll leave it at that and have patience there.

[Introspect]

Some posters who are critical of TJG are praising Margus Hunt who we just signed. Hunt is a Shotput champ but "can break out with us". 5 years in? Seriously?

 

Yet people want to write off a young, talent after 1 year? GTFOHWTBS

[#12.]

With as much as the Colts had invested in Richardson, he was only given two years.  With as much as they had invested in Werner, he was also essentially only given two years before being left of the AFCCG roster, then benched and relegated to a handful of plays a game the following year.  And that was with Grigson... the guy who brought them in.  Expecting Ballard, who didn't draft Green, to show years of patience with Grigson's project player seems like pure fantasy to me.  It' s not the way the league works in 2017.  He'll have to produce and show improvement or I'm guessing he'll be gone as quickly as most of Grigson's other defensive players are going.

[Dark Superman]

He actually saw the field a lot more than I thought he would as a rookie. I'm hoping with all the experience of lst season and having another solid TC under his belt. He could potentially be the long range play making safety we need.

 

We still need another safety regardless.

[ColtsBlueFL]

1 hour ago, #12. said:

With as much as the Colts had invested in Richardson, he was only given two years.  With as much as they had invested in Werner, he was also essentially only given two years before being left of the AFCCG roster, then benched and relegated to a handful of plays a game the following year.  And that was with Grigson... the guy who brought them in.  Expecting Ballard, who didn't draft Green, to show years of patience with Grigson's project player seems like pure fantasy to me.  It' s not the way the league works in 2017.  He'll have to produce and show improvement or I'm guessing he'll be gone as quickly as most of Grigson's other defensive players are going.

 

Except, Green wasn't Grigson's project.  Pagano was heavily involved in getting him.  I'm sure Chris and Chuck  have had discussion concerning personnel...

[funktacious2]

I'm fine with him continuing to have an opportunity to earn a spot on the final 53. Now that we have a new GM I doubt we have to worry about anyone forcing him out onto the field either. Maybe he shapes up, maybe he doesn't, but we are thin at safety now, so I feel his chances of being  around next season are quite good.

[Manning1887]

I agree that Green is likely better suited at corner. 

[aaron11]

i think they should try him at nickel back

 

put him in man coverage and dont ask him to play zone ever

 

he could also blitz and play the run from the nickel better than most guys there