Dwayne Allen is Looking Better than Coby Fleener

[Rifford]

Don't be surprised if/when Miami either locks-up Long with a long-term deal, or puts a franchise tag on him.

Hard to see them letting him walk away for nothing....

Just sayin....

A guy can dream.

[John Dee]

Agree on both counts. I just don't see where Fleener was that impressive at Stanford. Non existent as a freshan and sophmore , ok as a junior and made the most out of around 30 catches as a senior. I thought Upshaw or Janoris Jenkins.

You will see soon...

[Rafiki]

Fleener will be ok.. he will be more of home run hitter making big plays. We are gonna see a lot of goaline TD's to Fleener.. his vert is sick. If he is matched against a small LB its not even going to be fair in jump ball situations.

Allen will be that big possession tackle breaking machine, Heath Miller if you will.. with a Jason Witten potential if he keeps working at his craft.

[Fx Stryker]

It's expected. Allen is the purer TE.

Fleener is a play maker though. Which is why he had a higher draft stock.

[Hans Moleman]

Agree on both counts. I just don't see where Fleener was that impressive at Stanford. Non existent as a freshan and sophmore , ok as a junior and made the most out of around 30 catches as a senior. I thought Upshaw or Janoris Jenkins.

Agree on both counts. I just don't see where Fleener was that impressive at Stanford. Non existent as a freshan and sophmore , ok as a junior and made the most out of around 30 catches as a senior. I thought Upshaw or Janoris Jenkins.

Here's why we couldn't have made that move of drafting Upshaw...

We never expected Dwayne Allen to last until the 3rd round. If we skip Fleener for defense in round 2, the staff would've been hoping Allen slipped (against our own draft board projections). Another team, who sees that we have only one (bad) TE on the roster, would probably trade up and snag him themselves knowing we were targeting him. It would've been clear as day we were taking him, and that's when teams make a move to get your guy before you do. I see it every year.

The whole reason we were able to land Dwayne in the 3rd is because we picked Coby in the 2nd and nobody--nobody--thought we'd go back to back on TE's. There was a significant talent drop off after the first two guys at the position and we needed to land at least one of them. We're lucky we got both.

Better to give Luck all the weapons we can now, and we'll address the D next draft/free agency.

[NewColtsFan]

Agree on both counts. I just don't see where Fleener was that impressive at Stanford. Non existent as a freshan and sophmore , ok as a junior and made the most out of around 30 catches as a senior. I thought Upshaw or Janoris Jenkins.

I appreciate that just looking at his numbers, Fleener may not have had much of a career... but to those of us who are Stanford fans (and I'm definitely one of them) and I saw most ever game Coby played, there are few of us who are disappointed with Coby's career at Stanford. He flashed LOTS of talent. He was able to put it all together his senior year.

And he was highly rated by the NFL. It's not as if Indy reached for him where they took him. If the Colts didn't take him, someone else would have, and soon. I'm sure some teams had him projected going in the first round.

If he can stay healthy, he should be a very good producer for Indy.... That's the hope....

Here's his bio, including stats at Stanford toward the bottom....

http://www.colts.com/team/roster/Coby-Fleener/d6cf51cb-84da-46af-903a-14b4067e4101

[Moncrief]

I call it "The BIGGEST Steal of the 2012 Draft" Hopefully they Perform well enough for this to Stick

I thought the biggest steal was between Hilton and Chapman.

If we took Luck at 2 and Washington took Griffin, would you call Luck a steal

[TKnight24]

I thought the biggest steal was between Hilton and Chapman.

If we took Luck at 2 and Washington took Griffin, would you call Luck a steal

If we took Luck at #2 would I call it a Steal? Hmmm. it really wouldn't be a Steal due to the simple fact that RG3 doesn't fit our Offense. Our offense is built around QB's who can read the Defense Pre-Snap, Audible when something doesn't look right, etc. RG3 is more of the "I'm sticking to the pass play but if it's a blitz, I'm using my legs to get away or make a play". If that makes sense

[dgambill]

Yeah dont get me started on passing on Upshaw, that made my blood boil even though I saw it coming.

Yeah..it was predictable. It was like...we are taking Fleener NO MATTER WHAT going into day 2. I don't think Upshaw fit a lot of teams needs and I understand why he fell...but I really think he would have given us great flexibility next year if we wanted to let Freeney go and give us tons more cap space to use. As it stands....likely Freeney will be offered big money to end his career here...just have to wait and see if he stays or leaves. I just look at TE and I really loved Allen...and Fleener was a luxury...but I'm not sure TE was a position we HAD to focus on....heck I think even Tamme would have been fine to bring back. Anyways we have him....he is a great luxury and I hope Fleener really excels. We all want that double headed monster...but I wouldn't see it a surprise at all to see Allen see most of the snaps and get a majority of the plays called for him.

[Warhorse]

I respect your opinion, Andy, but from the film I have seen, Coby is another level of receiver from Allen. I get the fact that he has had more opportunities, but I feel Coby is going to have the better receiving numbers at the end of the year.

[dgambill]

Here's why we couldn't have made that move of drafting Upshaw...

We never expected Dwayne Allen to last until the 3rd round. If we skip Fleener for defense in round 2, the staff would've been hoping Allen slipped (against our own draft board projections). Another team, who sees that we have only one (bad) TE on the roster, would probably trade up and snag him themselves knowing we were targeting him. It would've been clear as day we were taking him, and that's when teams make a move to get your guy before you do. I see it every year.

The whole reason we were able to land Dwayne in the 3rd is because we picked Coby in the 2nd and nobody--nobody--thought we'd go back to back on TE's. There was a significant talent drop off after the first two guys at the position and we needed to land at least one of them. We're lucky we got both.

Better to give Luck all the weapons we can now, and we'll address the D next draft/free agency.

I agree we don't know how that would have changed the draft but we also simply could have moved up to get him late in the second if we wanted him that bad. Fact is we valued the TEs higher than Upshaw because we felt we had OLB covered with Freeney, Mathis, and Hughes....who knows..those 3 might play OUTSTANDING making Upshaw not needed and this all work out. Or...we might see Fleener fizzle, Hughes never materialize, and Freeney leave next year and Upshaw blow up into the next Suggs. We made our choice...just going to root us on...at the time I wanted Upshaw or Cordy Glenn or one of those stud OLs. We will see how it works out. Everyone might win in that scenerio..or everyone might lose.

Or..we could have moved back...trading out of that spot to the middle of the second and taken Allen...and picked up a later pick and got someone else we coveted.....to me....I just didn't think Fleener was worth that pick...later in the second possibly...heck we may have still got Fleener moving back a bit and Allen still and got that draft pick we gave up to get Hilton.

[dw49]

Allen's a prototype H-back. He can play the traditional TE role, and can play in the backfield as a lead blocker. Very well rounded player and a jack of all trades. We won't be splitting him wide much, but he'll play a crucial role in helping Luck develop not just as a receiver, but in pass blocking.

Fleener's the prototype WR/TE hybrid, only he blocks better and plays with more power than that style of player generally does. The speed and burst is right there on film....he's the last TE I can remember that led the Pac 10/12/whatever it is now in yards per reception. Also, Stanford ran a power running offense, and Fleener was able to stay on the field and be effective as a blocker. Arians is finding that out now and is surprised at how much better Fleener is at in-line blocking than he thought he'd be. He's got gamebreaking ability as a receiver.

Make no bones about it, we got the two best TE's in the draft this year and their skills are complimentary. I loved the picks then and it's only going to get better once they get some real playing time.

Good post young man . I think maybe you have it in a nutshell.

[throwing BBZ]

There not competing with each other but against other teams

Ya got it right jbar & hansMo.

These guys are versatile and complimentary. They can play in line, in motion, Fleenor a slot Nightmare for safeties.

Looks like Allen might become (SOON) a guy who can HANDLE LB`s. That does Wonderful things for the Running game. ;- )

Week to week Ariens and Andrew are going to have a Blast working ON defenses with Reggie, Avery, Collie, Fleenor, Allen, TY Hilton.

And it should just get plain NASTY in Year Two!

Andrew is YEARS ahead of where $tat$Man was, and I don`t believe he will be scared in the pocket.

[throwing BBZ]

I respect our opinion, Andy, but from the film I have seen, Coby is another level of receiver from Allen. I get the fact that he has had more opportunities, but I feel Coby is going to have the better receiving numbers at the end of the year.

I respect our opinion, Andy, but from the film I have seen, Coby is another level of receiver from Allen. I get the fact that he has had more opportunities, but I feel Coby is going to have the better receiving numbers at the end of the year.

Allen should be Open more underneath the defense, so more catches. I will guestimate 48 catches Allen, Fleener 44 with some Nice long ones.

[Hans Moleman]

Yeah..it was predictable. It was like...we are taking Fleener NO MATTER WHAT going into day 2. I don't think Upshaw fit a lot of teams needs and I understand why he fell...but I really think he would have given us great flexibility next year if we wanted to let Freeney go and give us tons more cap space to use. As it stands....likely Freeney will be offered big money to end his career here...just have to wait and see if he stays or leaves. I just look at TE and I really loved Allen...and Fleener was a luxury...but I'm not sure TE was a position we HAD to focus on....heck I think even Tamme would have been fine to bring back. Anyways we have him....he is a great luxury and I hope Fleener really excels. We all want that double headed monster...but I wouldn't see it a surprise at all to see Allen see most of the snaps and get a majority of the plays called for him.

Ironically enough, it was Upshaw who would've been the luxury since we have our starting OLB/DE's set. We had nothing at TE but Brody Eldridge. Had Dallas Clark been healthy enough to keep or we re-signed Tamme, going for Upshaw or Glenn is a move we could've done (I like Glenn more than Upshaw myself). Then we maybe roll the dice with changing out draft position and are satisfied with either Fleener or Allen...but it turned out both Fleener and Allen were needs because the depth chart was that empty. And when need meets value like that, best to take your guys and not try to get too cute with exactly where you try to land them.

Next year I don't see us having those gaping roster holes like we did this last draft, so we should have much more freedom in who we target between a few positions that'll need to be shored up. I think we did a heck of a job getting as much as we did filled out in one offseason given how gutted the roster was.

[TKnight24]

Dwayne Allen had Pre-Practice to Blocking LB's & being a Lead Blocker due to Clemson's "Fancy & Versatile" Playbook. He lined up in the Backfield, Lined up at TE, lined up at WR, ran routes like flats or whatever & even was the lead blocker on run plays. Arians should've seen the film on Allen so I look for him to use Allen the same way Allen was used at Clemson, if not more. By doing this, the Defense will have to make the Adjustments, which will create Mismatches for Fleener & Avery when they line up in the slot. This year could be looked at as "The Trail Run" or "The Prototype". But with Arians coaching style & the weapons on this Offense, year 2 is going to Wreck Havoc in the NFL

[Gavin]

What we maybe could have done was go

1.Luck

2.Boykin

3.Allen

4.Ta'amu

5.Ladarius Green

5.Streeter

Then again I love the potential of most of our draft picks as is

[dw49]

I appreciate that just looking at his numbers, Fleener may not have had much of a career... but to those of us who are Stanford fans (and I'm definitely one of them) and I saw most ever game Coby played, there are few of us who are disappointed with Coby's career at Stanford. He flashed LOTS of talent. He was able to put it all together his senior year.

And he was highly rated by the NFL. It's not as if Indy reached for him where they took him. If the Colts didn't take him, someone else would have, and soon. I'm sure some teams had him projected going in the first round.

If he can stay healthy, he should be a very good producer for Indy.... That's the hope....

Here's his bio, including stats at Stanford toward the bottom....

http://www.colts.com...3a-14b4067e4101

That's good to hear and I hope you are correct on his talent level. I'm not down on him , I just question if the Colts picked the best player available at pick 2.2. They do deserve a little "leeway" on this as we need to surround Luck with the talent to suceed in his rookie year. However I will add that Fleener was not projected to be a top 35 pick based on what he showed at Stanford. It was the workout numbers that pushed him up 20 or so picks. That said , I would think you would be far more credible than me in this thread. I saw him play maybe 4-5 games.

[BOTT]

A player like Fleener, IMO is a luxury... A player like Allen, IMO is a necessity. If teams want to win they have to have an end that can block and catch. And if a team wants to win BIG they need players who can score from anywhere on the field. . Fleener is a WR playing TE. He will be a very good asset to Indy,

This O will produce this season. I have said it since the draft. I really like how this O is shaping up.

i doubt the saints and chargers see jimmy graham and antonio gates as "luxuries"

[dw49]

Here's why we couldn't have made that move of drafting Upshaw...

We never expected Dwayne Allen to last until the 3rd round. If we skip Fleener for defense in round 2, the staff would've been hoping Allen slipped (against our own draft board projections). Another team, who sees that we have only one (bad) TE on the roster, would probably trade up and snag him themselves knowing we were targeting him. It would've been clear as day we were taking him, and that's when teams make a move to get your guy before you do. I see it every year.

The whole reason we were able to land Dwayne in the 3rd is because we picked Coby in the 2nd and nobody--nobody--thought we'd go back to back on TE's. There was a significant talent drop off after the first two guys at the position and we needed to land at least one of them. We're lucky we got both.

Better to give Luck all the weapons we can now, and we'll address the D next draft/free agency.

I tend to agree after rethinking. I think the fact that the we need to help Luck as much as possible is more important than maybe not making the best choice as far as "player vaue" at pick 34. TE's are a rookies best friend and add to that Arians's extensive use of them and it's no doubt the best move. The Colts had too many holes to fill to be a serious contender in 2012 , so Luck's developement is by far the biggest priority. Unless ther were other TE's the Colts liked , they would probably have had to trade up for Allen had they not selected Fleener. We all do agree that the Colts didn't have a single legit TE on the roster going into the draft.. so we had to draft two or at least one and trade for or sign a free agent for the other.

[Gavin]

By defnition Graham and Gates are luxuries, How many Tight Ends do we all know of in the NFL that have the athleticism and speed combned with hands that they have?1-2 others with a couple more yet to prove that in the NFL (Fleener and Allen), Having those guys as Tight Ends is a luxury not the normal and they should be taken advantage of when we have the chance

[B-B]

I'm not really surprised by this, Allen is a pure TE, Fleener is a Receiving TE

[MAC]

SCORE the ball

Arggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

A "basketball" phrase that is so poorly constructed as to be physically painful to hear or read. PLEASE don't bring it over here.

[NewColtsFan]

That's good to hear and I hope you are correct on his talent level. I'm not down on him , I just question if the Colts picked the best player available at pick 2.2. They do deserve a little "leeway" on this as we need to surround Luck with the talent to suceed in his rookie year. However I will add that Fleener was not projected to be a top 35 pick based on what he showed at Stanford. It was the workout numbers that pushed him up 20 or so picks. That said , I would think you would be far more credible than me in this thread. I saw him play maybe 4-5 games.

I understand what you're saying and don't disagree.... but Coby is not alone in going higher than perhaps he showed in games...

For example.... based on what he did on the field, Dontari Poe shouldn't have gone 11th overall, but more likely 11th in the 3rd round. But he's the physical freak to end all physical freaks. So, the Chiefs hope they can coach him up...

Same with Michael Brockers from LSU who went to St. Louis at 15... had just 2 sacks... the Rams think they can turn his raw talent into an absolute Beast... (read a good story on that)

This kind of thing happens all the time... a team think they can turn a good college player into a great NFL player based on the players physical skills... The Colts are not alone in thinking they can turn Fleener into something special...

But, the bottom line is.... we don't have to worry about who is better, and who should have gone in which round...

Indianapolis drafted both! We've got the two top tight ends in the draft! No other team can say that!

I think this was a home run for Grigson! (now, please let it all happen as we all hope!)

[Moncrief]

If we took Luck at #2 would I call it a Steal? Hmmm. it really wouldn't be a Steal due to the simple fact that RG3 doesn't fit our Offense. Our offense is built around QB's who can read the Defense Pre-Snap, Audible when something doesn't look right, etc. RG3 is more of the "I'm sticking to the pass play but if it's a blitz, I'm using my legs to get away or make a play". If that makes sense

Ahh I meant Peyton at 2 and Leaf at 1

[Vinny BoomBatz]

Wasn't Allen considered the more complete TE coming out and was actually rated as a better TE than Fleener by many scouts? I've never been sold on Fleener and I still think Upshaw would have been a better pick. Hopefully, Fleener proves me wrong

Yes, i remeber you and I breifly speaking about it after the draft.....I likened him to marcus pollard, with my fingers crossed of course ;)!

[funktacious2]

I have to agree. From the camps I had seen, Allen made the bigger impact in all of them.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I don't care both will be good & both play a different game. Allen the better blocker & better at short pass's based on routes & size, not much wiggle though after the catch. Both have good hands Fleener is faster, can gash the seam, taller & much better after the catch. They will be a MATCHUP NIGHTMARE once they get the hang of the NFL. 2 nice picks IMO!

[TKnight24]

Ahh I meant Peyton at 2 and Leaf at 1

Oh, well then yeah. That's a Steal. Leaf had nothing on Peyton. lol

[Moncrief]

Oh, well then yeah. That's a Steal. Leaf had nothing on Peyton. lol

That's.... That's what I wanted to hear

[dw49]

I understand what you're saying and don't disagree.... but Coby is not alone in going higher than perhaps he showed in games...

For example.... based on what he did on the field, Dontari Poe shouldn't have gone 11th overall, but more likely 11th in the 3rd round. But he's the physical freak to end all physical freaks. So, the Chiefs hope they can coach him up...

Same with Michael Brockers from LSU who went to St. Louis at 15... had just 2 sacks... the Rams think they can turn his raw talent into an absolute Beast... (read a good story on that)

This kind of thing happens all the time... a team think they can turn a good college player into a great NFL player based on the players physical skills... The Colts are not alone in thinking they can turn Fleener into something special...

But, the bottom line is.... we don't have to worry about who is better, and who should have gone in which round...

Indianapolis drafted both! We've got the two top tight ends in the draft! No other team can say that!

I think this was a home run for Grigson! (now, please let it all happen as we all hope!)

Yes it does happen all the time. Players move up and down as a result of the combine or campus workouts. Jeff George moved to the first overall pick as a result of probably the most impressive display of an arm to date. I've probably watched the last 20 NFL drafts and followed the draft for probably 45 years. Who can forget Mike Mamula burning the Eagles ? In 1993 they traded into the 7 spot to take him. Tamba bay used the Eagles pick at 12 to select Warren Sapp. I found this tidbit on Mamula that I thought was interesting. A bit off topic but anyway.....

Mamula improved his draft stock tremendously thanks to his showing at the NFL Combine. He was one of the first players to train specifically for the combine drills, performing each drill hundreds of times in the months leading up to the combine. Although that practice is prevalent today, in 1995 most players performed football drills and paid less to attention to the specific drills measured at the combine. Mamula had 28 reps of 225 lb bench presses, which was more reps than the top tackle taken in the draft (Tony Boselli), and his 4.58 40-yard dash time was considered extremely fast for his position.He scored a 49 out of 50 in the Wonderlic Test, which is the second highest score ever recorded by an NFL player. In addition he also had a 38" vertical jump, higher than CB Jimmy Hitchcock.

[weslo1812]

Lets not forget that there is the possiblity that Allen may be getting targeted more than fleener to work on his and Lucks timing with eachother. And He is getting alot of first team reps obviously because he is going to be primary actual TE where as Fleener will be That Flex WR/TE who will be subed in and out a little more with the WR. So thats probably why Fleener is seeing more second team reps than first as of right now. Both players will have great rookie season though I just have a feeling.

And as far as Allen being the better all aroung actuall TE that shouldn't be new news to anyone. That was made pretty obvious in alot of scouting reports I read at least. Now Fleener should not be taken lightly just because he had Luck. He is a very smart player at his position and will excell because of that. He runs his routes very percise and in a way that gives him an advantage.He uses his body well to sheild defenders. His hands are great and hes got the speed to top it off. His blocking is not on par with Allen for sure but Id be willing to bet he's even with Allen everywhere else and possibly a little better in a couple areas. But nothing is proven right now because neither have played in pro game yet so they are on and even scale. Its goign to be neat to watch both compliment eachother though.

[Warhorse]

Allen's a prototype H-back. He can play the traditional TE role, and can play in the backfield as a lead blocker. Very well rounded player and a jack of all trades. We won't be splitting him wide much, but he'll play a crucial role in helping Luck develop not just as a receiver, but in pass blocking.

Fleener's the prototype WR/TE hybrid, only he blocks better and plays with more power than that style of player generally does. The speed and burst is right there on film....he's the last TE I can remember that led the Pac 10/12/whatever it is now in yards per reception. Also, Stanford ran a power running offense, and Fleener was able to stay on the field and be effective as a blocker. Arians is finding that out now and is surprised at how much better Fleener is at in-line blocking than he thought he'd be. He's got gamebreaking ability as a receiver.

Make no bones about it, we got the two best TE's in the draft this year and their skills are complimentary. I loved the picks then and it's only going to get better once they get some real playing time.

Excellent post. Complete, without fluff, and backed well. BTW, where is Mishawaka?

[shakedownstreet]

i think the both look marvelous

[needanoline63]

I expect our pass offense to be good this year, we have to many weapons to settle for anything less then 15th in the league

[Freeupfreeney]

Good post young man . I think maybe you have it in a nutshell.

Yeah, anybody who has a problem with Fleener didn't watch too much pac 10 football. 6'6 sup 4.4 fourty, 37 inch verticle, solid run blocker...above average for his style of play (watch the stanford vs ucla game for proff) good hands.

i honestly didn't like Allen because his route running is sub par, but he does have great hands and after the catch ability. But since we got Fleener, I was happy we got Allen, because they will play off each other.

As far as who should start? I guess it depends on what set we are running.

[NewEra]

Allen potentionally being better than Fleener is a very good problem to have. Thats not a knock on Fleener either. Same with our LBers. If Conner loses out to Fokou thats a really good sign. cause we know Conner is good already.

[jvan1973]

Excellent post. Complete, without fluff, and backed well. BTW, where is Mishawaka?

Just east of South Bend

[John Dee]

Allen's a prototype H-back. He can play the traditional TE role, and can play in the backfield as a lead blocker. Very well rounded player and a jack of all trades. We won't be splitting him wide much, but he'll play a crucial role in helping Luck develop not just as a receiver, but in pass blocking.

Fleener's the prototype WR/TE hybrid, only he blocks better and plays with more power than that style of player generally does. The speed and burst is right there on film....he's the last TE I can remember that led the Pac 10/12/whatever it is now in yards per reception. Also, Stanford ran a power running offense, and Fleener was able to stay on the field and be effective as a blocker. Arians is finding that out now and is surprised at how much better Fleener is at in-line blocking than he thought he'd be. He's got gamebreaking ability as a receiver.

Make no bones about it, we got the two best TE's in the draft this year and their skills are complimentary. I loved the picks then and it's only going to get better once they get some real playing time.

precisely... ...

[BOTT]

By defnition Graham and Gates are luxuries, How many Tight Ends do we all know of in the NFL that have the athleticism and speed combned with hands that they have?1-2 others with a couple more yet to prove that in the NFL (Fleener and Allen), Having those guys as Tight Ends is a luxury not the normal and they should be taken advantage of when we have the chance

luxuries..no, exceptional talents...yes. my god, one person claims receiving tight ends are luxuries a few months back and people keep repeating it. reminds me of the bit jon stewert does on the daily show.