Leonard

[GoColts8818]

1 minute ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Yes I noticed it. You referenced our conversation so not sure why the end around to why it doesn’t apply  Ok though. You weren’t talking about our conversation and it was just a coincidence lol. 
 

FYI, in 2008 PM passed for 271 with 3tds and 0 int in game 5. He struggled the next two games then raised his play more and I think they won every game to end the season. That is a glimpse of what was possible. 

I think I was pretty clear I was giving example to the point I made before.  Not everything is about you.  Had I wanted it to be about you I would have quoted you.   I didn’t, thus it wasn’t directed at you and was me giving an example to make my point more clear.  

 

So in other words it took until mid season for Peyton get right.

[AwesomeAustin]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

I think I was pretty clear I was giving example to the point I made before.  Not everything is about you.  Had I wanted it to be about you I would have quoted you.   I didn’t, thus it wasn’t directed at you and was me giving an example to make my point more clear.  

 

So in other words it took until mid season for Peyton get right.

Hey!  Thanks I guess lol

[Colts1324]

We essentially only have to keep him this year & next year. 
 

I believe his contract only has a 4 million dollar cap hit if we drop him after next season for 2025 & no guaranteed money for 2026.

 

Speed & Franklin are both free agents after next season as well, so it works out perfect 

[GoColts8818]

Just now, Colts1324 said:

We essentially only have to keep him this year & next year. 
 

I believe his contract only has a 4 million dollar cap hit if we drop him after next season for 2025 & no guaranteed money for 2026.

 

Speed & Franklin are both free agents after next season as well, so it works out perfect 

I believe someone showed if the Colts wanted they can get out of his contract after this year.  Not saying that will or is what the Colts should do just that it’s an option.

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Colts1324 said:

We essentially only have to keep him this year & next year. 
 

I believe his contract only has a 4 million dollar cap hit if we drop him after next season for 2025 & no guaranteed money for 2026.

 

Speed & Franklin are both free agents after next season as well, so it works out perfect 

 

3 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

I believe someone showed if the Colts wanted they can get out of his contract after this year.  Not saying that will or is what the Colts should do just that it’s an option.

The two people here who understand this the best are @w87r and @Superman.  Perhaps they will chime in?  
 

Looking at the Leonard page from Spotrac my read is this….   That there’s a natural out after this season.   I believe the key number isn’t the cap hit, but instead the DEAD cap hit.   And it’s $8mill.   
 

But….   From OverTheCap.com, the overall team salary cap is about to make a huge jump.   From just under $225m this year to $256m next year thanks to new revenue from TV deals plus streaming.   So I think the math is very manageable for the Colts.   If the Colts feel the need, they can cut Leonard at the end of the season.  
 

If I’ve mis-stated anything (and I might have) I’m sure others will weigh in and correct me.

[lollygagger8]

Leonard looks like he's lost a step or two. Here's hoping it's just cobwebs. 

 

Franklin and Speed on the other hand look fantastic. 

[w87r]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The two people here who understand this the best are @w87r and @Superman.  Perhaps they will chime in?  
 

Looking at the Leonard page from Spotrac my read is this….   That there’s a natural out after this season.   I believe the key number isn’t the cap hit, but instead the DEAD cap hit.   And it’s $8mill.   
 

But….   From OverTheCap.com, the overall team salary cap is about to make a huge jump.   From just under $225m this year to $256m next year thanks to new revenue from TV deals plus streaming.   So I think the math is very manageable for the Colts.   If the Colts feel the need, they can cut Leonard at the end of the season.  
 

If I’ve mis-stated anything (and I might have) I’m sure others will weigh in and correct me.

Pre June 1st trade or release:

2024 Dead Cap: $8,000,000

2024 Cap Savings: $12,124,000

 

Post June 1st trade or release:

2024 Dead Cap: $4,000,000

2025 Dead Cap: $4,000,000

2024 Cap Savings: $16,124,000

[smittywerb]

11 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

He seems to be a lost ball in tall weeds out there. Just seems lost and no factor at all the first two games. Seems to be lighter than prior years. Express my concern if he would ever be the same after watching him last year and found myself well in the minority. Hope I am wrong and he starts to come around . Franklin and Speed are doing well but would never be able to replace Leonard's playmaking ability. Miss his TOs and his occasional ability to get some occasional pressure and sacks. 

 

I think it’s a mix between him getting his conditioning/routine back and getting used to his “new” body post-surgery.

 

will he be the maniaq Shaq we knew of?  Who knows, but I wouldn’t say he’s lost.  He’s just lost a step that he’ll hopefully get back.

[Fluke_33]

11 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

He seems to be a lost ball in tall weeds out there.

Damn, jd Salinger!

[bluebombers87]

7 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

I think I was pretty clear I was giving example to the point I made before.  Not everything is about you.  Had I wanted it to be about you I would have quoted you.   I didn’t, thus it wasn’t directed at you and was me giving an example to make my point more clear.  

 

So in other words it took until mid season for Peyton get right.

I think it’s not wise to compare Manning and Leonard in terms of injuries. Too many variables.

 

However, only logging two tackles when getting paid as much as he is, is a fair point. I know he was injured but you can’t get mad at fans for pointing out that for as much as we’re paying him we expect more.
 

If he’s not able to perform and needs more time, fine. Let’s rest him a bit more until he’s conditioned and put the next man up in there. Surely they can get two tackles.

[1959Colts]

At this point, after two games, I would say (hypothetically) Grant Stuard would be more productive, given the same reps as Leonard.

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, bluebombers87 said:

I think it’s not wise to compare Manning and Leonard in terms of injuries. Too many variables.

 

However, only logging two tackles when getting paid as much as he is, is a fair point. I know he was injured but you can’t get mad at fans for pointing out that for as much as we’re paying him we expect more.
 

If he’s not able to perform and needs more time, fine. Let’s rest him a bit more until he’s conditioned and put the next man up in there. Surely they can get two tackles.

It doesn’t have to be Manning it can be any player.  My point was if a guy missing camp and pre-season took half a season go get right it’s not unreasonable for a guy who missed almost all of last year, wasn’t cleared to start running until June and then missed a lot of camp and the pre-season to take a while to get right too.

 

I don’t think it’s a matter of conditioning here.  I think he’s has to get back into game shape and regain confidence that comes from playing and knock the rust off.  There is only one way to do it and it’s not resting him.

 

Also I am not mad at anyone, I think that’s part of the problem here people take anyone disagreeing with them and stating why as a sign they are mad, that’s not the case they just have a difference of opinion.  I want Leonard to be back to his old self too sooner rather than later but the fact is he’s working his way back from a pretty serious injury.  It’s going to take time rather we like it or not.  

[Jonmal7]

Injuries take time to get back from. Then when you are healthy you have to get back into game shape and get all your timings and everything else down again. Get your speed back. There's a lot of mental to get through too coming back. As time goes on he'll get better. Just have to be patient for now. Luckily other have stepped up while he works his way back. 

[bluebombers87]

1 hour ago, GoColts8818 said:

It doesn’t have to be Manning it can be any player.  My point was if a guy missing camp and pre-season took half a season go get right it’s not unreasonable for a guy who missed almost all of last year, wasn’t cleared to start running until June and then missed a lot of camp and the pre-season to take a while to get right too.

 

I don’t think it’s a matter of conditioning here.  I think he’s has to get back into game shape and regain confidence that comes from playing and knock the rust off.  There is only one way to do it and it’s not resting him.

 

Also I am not mad at anyone, I think that’s part of the problem here people take anyone disagreeing with them and stating why as a sign they are mad, that’s not the case they just have a difference of opinion.  I want Leonard to be back to his old self too sooner rather than later but the fact is he’s working his way back from a pretty serious injury.  It’s going to take time rather we like it or not.  

In general I don’t like to compare any injury to another as there are too many variables in play.
 

We all know it takes time to come back from an injury but he’s not helping the team if he’s out there trying to come back. Typically, speed isn’t something that comes back solely from playing.  It’s primarily a conditioning and strength situation at that point. All of which can be done off the field or in a pitch count kind of situation. We have to be competitive. We all saw what happened when the team quit last year. 

 

But again, only logging two tackles is going to invite questions. Does he need more time to recover, has there been a setback, etc.  These are all fair game on a message board.  I’m not saying trade him or cut him and I know this is just one game, but nonetheless when your star defender is playing this way, there will be questions just as there were questions with Manning. 
 

I hope next week he comes out banging. But I’d wager even he would admit this past game was not a good one.
 

And I’m glad you aren’t upset. And I know it’s not just you but we have some people that even mentioning players not playing well gets them all fired up.

[Mitch Connors]

5 hours ago, w87r said:

Pre June 1st trade or release:

2024 Dead Cap: $8,000,000

2024 Cap Savings: $12,124,000

 

Post June 1st trade or release:

2024 Dead Cap: $4,000,000

2025 Dead Cap: $4,000,000

2024 Cap Savings: $16,124,000

If I read that correctly the Colts would be much better off cutting him after June 1st. Not specifically directed at you but you clearly know more about it than me, but why is that? Is that so teams are incentivized to retain their players until the draft has ended? Seems like Leonard would want to be cut asap so he can start lining things up before official free agency begins. 

 

***lets not worry about whether they should/would cut him. I'm curious about the logic in the contract.

[Ratking]

14 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Again, I don’t know how many times I have to say it. I never said by game 5 he needs to be great. I said he needs to START balling. Those were my exact words.  It’s not unrealistic for me to think he should show flashes and signs that he is returning to what he is capable of. Maybe it takes all year to get back to where he was…maybe he never returns. All I know is great players start showing glimpses of that quickly. Even Peyton showed glimpses of it when returning from injury before he was all the way back. Leonard is supposed to be a top player on this team. He can START to show it after a few games to get his bearings and grow from there. It’s not a light switch you flip on but it’s something that builds.  That is how it works

You are right. Tired of Ballard's high pay but low impact always hurt players.... i.e. Darius and Nelson. 

[Superman]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Looking at the Leonard page from Spotrac my read is this….   That there’s a natural out after this season.   I believe the key number isn’t the cap hit, but instead the DEAD cap hit.   And it’s $8mill.   

 

Yeah you got it, it's pretty simple. They can cut him after this season with an $8m cap penalty, and that would save the Colts $12m on the 2024 cap. 

 

I just don't understand why we're talking about Leonard this much after two games. This is a January-March topic, IMO.

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah you got it, it's pretty simple. They can cut him after this season with an $8m cap penalty, and that would save the Colts $12m on the 2024 cap. 

 

I just don't understand why we're talking about Leonard this much after two games. This is a January-March topic, IMO.

Exactly.  I want him to get healthy too but like I said rather he does or not he’s here this season.  If he’s not back to his old self by the end of the year then the Colts have a decision to make.

[hoosierhawk]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah you got it, it's pretty simple. They can cut him after this season with an $8m cap penalty, and that would save the Colts $12m on the 2024 cap. 

 

I just don't understand why we're talking about Leonard this much after two games. This is a January-March topic, IMO.

It is a message board and the concern I have is the type of injuries he has had in his short career. He had ankle surgery, and 2 back surgeries since initially injuring  his back in 2020. My concern has been his back and potential nerve damage. I am living proof that nerve damage can be permanent and quite debilitating. God forbid that is his problem but 2 back surgeries tells me he has some potentially serious back issues.

I hope time heals all but he doesn't look like the old Shaq. We have 15 games to play till January-March so I thought it is a topic to be discussed during the season. Several people have stated their opinion and that is what this forum is for, is t not?

[Superman]

39 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

It is a message board and the concern I have is the type of injuries he has had in his short career. He had ankle surgery, and 2 back surgeries since initially injuring  his back in 2020. My concern has been his back and potential nerve damage. I am living proof that nerve damage can be permanent and quite debilitating. God forbid that is his problem but 2 back surgeries tells me he has some potentially serious back issues.

I hope time heals all but he doesn't look like the old Shaq. We have 15 games to play till January-March so I thought it is a topic to be discussed during the season. Several people have stated their opinion and that is what this forum is for, is t not?

 

The bolded is my point exactly. There is no decision to make right now, with 15 games left to play. Everyone is concerned about whether he gets back to full health or not, and I don't think anyone's head is in the sand about how serious his injuries are.

 

But the contract doesn't really matter until the season is over, because nothing will happen with the contract before then. Still, there's a ton of focus on the contract, after two games, and it doesn't make sense at this point of the season.

 

You seem to have taken my post personally, maybe because you started the thread? My comment was more directed at people complaining about his contract than wondering about his play.

[w87r]

3 hours ago, Mitch Connors said:

If I read that correctly the Colts would be much better off cutting him after June 1st. Not specifically directed at you but you clearly know more about it than me, but why is that? Is that so teams are incentivized to retain their players until the draft has ended? Seems like Leonard would want to be cut asap so he can start lining things up before official free agency begins. 

 

***lets not worry about whether they should/would cut him. I'm curious about the logic in the contract.

Actually, you can cut them whenever, they are just designated post June 1st cuts. And you still carry the total dead cap hit, until June 1st hits, then you get the cap relief.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/overthecap.com/explaining-the-post-june-1-designation/amp

[Superman]

16 minutes ago, w87r said:

Actually, you can cut them whenever, they are just designated post June 1st cuts.

 

Up to two players per year.

[bluebombers87]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

The bolded is my point exactly. There is no decision to make right now, with 15 games left to play. Everyone is concerned about whether he gets back to full health or not, and I don't think anyone's head is in the sand about how serious his injuries are.

 

But the contract doesn't really matter until the season is over, because nothing will happen with the contract before then. Still, there's a ton of focus on the contract, after two games, and it doesn't make sense at this point of the season.

 

You seem to have taken my post personally, maybe because you started the thread? My comment was more directed at people complaining about his contract than wondering about his play.

My thinking is in regards to the contract talk is whether or not it was wise to pay him what we did, if this was another bad ballard contract, etc.

 

I don’t subscribe to either notion but this being a message board, 🙃

[EasyE]

8 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah you got it, it's pretty simple. They can cut him after this season with an $8m cap penalty, and that would save the Colts $12m on the 2024 cap. 

 

I just don't understand why we're talking about Leonard this much after two games. This is a January-March topic, IMO.

I agree 100% Leonard has had major surgeries. Two weeks in is not a big deal to worry about him. Let the guy have a chance to get where he once was, even if it is less than 100% than he was before. He may never be the Manic again that he once played at. But people need to give the credit for at least trying.. JMO

[lollygagger8]

14 hours ago, Ratking said:

Is there another forum you can take your negativity? 

 

 

16 hours ago, Ratking said:

You are right. Tired of Ballard's high pay but low impact always hurt players.... i.e. Darius and Nelson. 

 

[Rhodelesstraveled]

He'll never be what he once was.