Reich and Eberflus totally different philosophies

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

It seems weird to me that Reich is aggressive but yet his Dc is so passive. Reich didn’t choose Eberflus. I wonder at what point Reich would be allowed to bring in his own guy that has a aggressive nature like he does.

[CR91]

Cover 2 is a vanilla defense scheme wise which is why I prefer cover 1

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

It won’t surprise me if things don’t change this year that Ballard lets Reich go get his own guy.

[John Hammonds]

I think I recall Eberflus saying something about running a more vanilla Cover2 scheme last year because so many rookies were playing significant roles in it.

What happened this week?  Okereke, Ya-Sin, Willis, Speed...

So many rookies...

[Fisticuffs111]

Unpopular opinion but I'm still behind Eberflus. I think he's doing about the best he can considering the circumstances. Sure, 3rd down defense has been a mess, but we're not as talent flush as some people thought. And we're not deep enough to overcome injuries to the best player in both the secondary and the LBer group (not that it hasn't been an issue even with those two).

Also, just a thought...people have been calling out our lack of beef on the DL. I have too. But it makes me wonder, is that what Eberflus wants? I know Ballard works with both Reich/Eberflus to go after guys who fit, but I'm curious as to how that dynamic between Ballard and Eberflus really works. By all accounts Eberflus is Ballard's guy, he sought him out and not McDaniels, etc.

I guess I'm just curious about who the main mind behind our defense is.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

7 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I think I recall Eberflus saying something about running a more vanilla Cover2 scheme last year because so many rookies were playing significant roles in it.

What happened this week?  Okereke, Ya-Sin, Willis, Speed...

So many rookies...

That is a good point. What happened though to returning almost all defensive starters. Maybe injuries have slowed things. When you return that many guys they are a year older with more experience.Hopefully like last season as they get more playing time things change up. I remember how much credit he was getting towards the end of last season because he was changing things before the balk was snapped to confuse offenses.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Unpopular opinion but I'm still behind Eberflus. I think he's doing about the best he can considering the circumstances. Sure, 3rd down defense has been a mess, but we are not as talent flush as some people thought coming into this season. And we're not deep enough to overcome injuries to the best player in both the secondary and the LBer group.

Also, just a thought...but people have been calling out our lack of beef on the DL. I have too. But it makes me wonder, is that what Eberflus wants? I'm sure Ballard works with both Reich/Eberflus to go after guys who fit/the kind of guys they want, but I really am curious as to how that dynamic between Ballard/Eberflus works. I know that Eberflus is Ballard's guy though, at least by all accounts he went after him and not McDaniels. But still.

My only question is though when your returning as many starters as we did this year why is there a need to go do vanilla. They should of already ready to perform what we were doing at the end of last year. Maybe injuries have hampered it a little bit.

[John Hammonds]

5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

That is a good point. What happened though to returning almost all defensive starters. Maybe injuries have slowed things. When you return that many guys they are a year older with more experience.Hopefully like last season as they get more playing time things change up. I remember how much credit he was getting towards the end of last season because he was changing things before the balk was snapped to confuse offenses.

Yup, I agree.  Hopefully, when we get Leonard and Hooker back, we can insert a few more wrinkles in this defense.

 

I think it's also been said elsewhere that running this much vanilla has shined a spotlight on our defense's main defect:  our interior linemen are undersized.

You can deal with that with added wrinkles and complexities in the scheme.  But if you're running straight vanilla? Oh my.

[Dasteez]

It does feel like in the recent games we’ve just sat back more in cover 2 zone and gotten picked apart by opposing offenses.
 

Late last year a common theme was blitzing and getting home against agile QBs like Watson. This year any remnants of pressure seems anemic. 
 

For any Tampa 2 / Zone heavy scheme, pass rush and ability to limit the rush is critical. Blitzing periodically or being aggressive also helps to limit the run and short completions on early downs to force them into 3rd and long. We’ve done poorly at all of the above over 4 games. 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

Oh Dear God.....

 

It’s going to be a long painful season here if this thread is any indication....

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

Oh Dear God.....

 

It’s going to be a long painful season here if this thread is any indication....

 

It’s just a question. If the D doesn’t improve it’s actually a very real possibility.

 

 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

please dont tell houston that we have a problem

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, Dasteez said:

It does feel like in the recent games we’ve just sat back more in cover 2 zone and gotten picked apart by opposing offenses.
 

Late last year a common theme was blitzing and getting home against agile QBs like Watson. This year any remnants of pressure seems anemic. 
 

For any Tampa 2 / Zone heavy scheme, pass rush and ability to limit the rush is critical. Blitzing periodically or being aggressive also helps to limit the run and short completions on early downs to force them into 3rd and long. We’ve done poorly at all of the above over 4 games. 

 

 

What’s crazy about the blitzing is Kenny Moore was so good at it towards the last half of the season. I mean he set a colts playoff record for sacks. I think he had three on Mahomes. I believe he blitzed Watson like 15 times in that playoff game. Why are we not using him more. Maybe once Leonard comes back things will settle down and we can blitz more. Kenny was great at the end of the season last year.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

It seems weird to me that Reich is aggressive but yet his Dc is so passive. Reich didn’t choose Eberflus. I wonder at what point Reich would be allowed to bring in his own guy that has a aggressive nature like he does.

I think it is almost to late to change gears with regards to this type of scheme.  Ballard has drafted and signed free agents specifically for this defense.   They r undersized at the front 7.  If we changed defenses, those players r basically useless in another defense.  We got 270 defensive tackles and linebackers weighing 215. So u basically have D ends playing tackle and safeties playing linebacker.

[IinD]

Our franchise has been pretty jinxed when it comes to acquiring solid playmakers on the interior of the line for what seems like forever. We can draft hall of famers at almost any position but have rarely had interior line guys be more then stop gaps until the next stop gap.

 

Last time in recent memory I can remember getting excited was that few game stretch Corey Simon had before it all fell apart.

 

I also lean towards believing Eber has to be keeping things simple because of the youth and injuries.

 

Gotta stay afloat for now. We ain't drowning yet in the division.

[zibby43]

There has been a very visible trend with respect to the Eberflus defense:

 

When the Colts play good quarterbacks, the vast majority of time, the Colts' simple zone scheme gets torched.  They had a few good games against Dak and Watson at the end of last year, but those games are unequivocally the exception, not the rule. 

 

It's hard to evaluate the secondary this year for 2 reasons: 1) they have gotten very inconsistent help from the defensive line; 2) they have gotten virtually no help from the scheme. 

 

Defensive line concerns:  The first games, I though the pressure was okay.  The last 2?  The defensive line has gotten blown off the ball.

 

To make matters worse, the Colts' tiny, fast LB cannot take on blocks.  When the DL gets obliterated and the opposing offensive linemen get to the second level of the Colts' defense, it's game over for the LBs; they can't shed - they get stuck.  That goes for Leonard, too.  It's the one hole in his game and I can't understand why he dropped weight in the offseason.   

 

Simple scheme:  On the scheme front, the Colts' DBs are sitting so far back that opposing WRs are able to run freely into the secondary, at full speed, while the defenders are flat on their heels.  Advantage WRs.  On the rare occasions the Colts' corners aren't 20 yards (it's not that far, but it seems like it) off the ball, they're playing with such bad technique at that snap (hands down, man down) that they have no chance to disrupt routes.

 

Personnel gripes: Margus Hunt is a liability.  There is no stud interior DL that can consistently either penetrate and create an inside pass rush or eat up double teams in the run game. 

 

The next time Quincy Wilson makes a play will be his first; his technique is just atrocious (I've never liked his attitude much, either).  He's like the bridesmaid of CBs, always around the play, but oftentimes a day late, or so beaten that he has no choice but to commit a silly penalty.

 

Other than that, defense looks great!

 

[Stephen]

5 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

There has been a very visible trend with respect to the Eberflus defense:

 

When the Colts play good quarterbacks, the vast majority of time, the Colts' simple zone scheme gets torched.  They had a few good games against Dak and Watson at the end of last year, but those games are unequivocally the exception, not the rule. 

 

It's hard to evaluate the secondary this year for 2 reasons: 1) they have gotten very inconsistent help from the defensive line; 2) they have gotten virtually no help from the scheme. 

 

Defensive line concerns:  The first games, I though the pressure was okay.  The last 2?  The defensive line has gotten blown off the ball.

 

To make matters worse, the Colts' tiny, fast LB cannot take on blocks.  When the DL gets obliterated and the opposing offensive linemen get to the second level of the Colts' defense, it's game over for the LBs; they can't shed - they get stuck.  That goes for Leonard, too.  It's the one hole in his game and I can't understand why he dropped weight in the offseason.   

 

Simple scheme:  On the scheme front, the Colts' DBs are sitting so far back that opposing WRs are able to run freely into the secondary, at full speed, while the defenders are flat on their heels.  Advantage WRs.  On the rare occasions the Colts' corners aren't 20 yards (it's not that far, but it seems like it) off the ball, they're playing with such bad technique at that snap (hands down, man down) that they have no chance to disrupt routes.

 

Personnel gripes: Margus Hunt is a liability.  There is no stud interior DL that can consistently either penetrate and create an inside pass rush or eat up double teams in the run game. 

 

The next time Quincy Wilson makes a play will be his first; his technique is just atrocious (I've never liked his attitude much, either).  He's like the bridesmaid of CBs, always around the play, but oftentimes a day late, or so beaten that he has no choice but to commit a silly penalty.

 

Other than that, defense looks great!

 

What scheme  do the Patriots  run on defense.  We need to adopt that as it seems to work better. 

[Luck 4 president]

Just a few months ago people were freaking out because eberflus was interviewing for HC positions. Funny how quickly people turn 

[zibby43]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

What scheme  do the Patriots  run on defense.  We need to adopt that as it seems to work better. 

 

The Patriots defense is "multiple."  They're running a hybrid this year, with 4-down (linemen) and 3-down looks.    

 

Basically, they actually scheme and gameplan with their defense.  They provide multiple looks, utilize various personnel groupings (just like Reich does with the offense).  Eberflus, on the other hand, basically just coaches "effort" and rallying to the football.  The former is chess, the latter is checkers.

 

I'm not trying to knock Eberflus; it's just the reality.

[HungarianColtsFan]

5 hours ago, CR91 said:

Cover 2 is a vanilla defense scheme wise which is why I prefer cover 1

 

Our D-scheme is basically a modification of Cover-1... it is Cover no1

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

It’s just a question. If the D doesn’t improve it’s actually a very real possibility.

 

 

 

I know last year is a long time ago....

 

But after 6 games we were 1-5 and the consensus around here was that Eberflus would be out by the end of the year.

 

10 weeks later and NFL types were calling E one of the hottest coordinators in the NFL.   Funny how that worked out.    Even the Colts Nation community was happy with him.

 

Now, we're four weeks into the new season and there are all sorts of legit reasons why the defense is struggling and you're wondering if Reich is going to want his own DC.

 

And because YOU think that Reich is aggressive and Eberflus is passive.    I don't even think you realize that the Colts don't think of their defense as passive.    You do.   Others here do.   But that doesn't make it true.    I think Ballard and his front office and the coaches would laugh at the idea that they're passive.    And if they are, indeed passive,  then there's good reason for it.

 

It's NOT the preferred style.    No one called us passive last year.

 

When you start a thread with a false premise,  as you did,  things can go south here in a hurry.

 

Just saying.....

 

[SteelCityColt]

10 hours ago, CR91 said:

Cover 2 is a vanilla defense scheme wise which is why I prefer cover 1

 

To be picky, Cover 2 is neither a defensive scheme or inherently vanilla. It's a type of coverage shell. For example, Son of Bum tends to employ Cover 2 with a 3-4 front and you don't see too many complaints about his D. 

 

Not to say that the play calling has always been the best IMO, but I think a lot of Saturday was a product of having key pieces out, a lack of pass rush (still), rookies who are still playing slow in a D that depends on fast reaction and rallying, as well as things like Quincy fricking Wilson. 

 

I'll never forgive that hand clap. 

[SteelCityColt]

3 hours ago, Stephen said:

What scheme  do the Patriots  run on defense.  We need to adopt that as it seems to work better. 

 

As @zibby43 said, it's not as simple as plug n play scheme. This isn't Madden. 

 

Bellichick is a defensive genius, he's never been tied into any one form of D so you're never sure what you're going to get. He's also a master of getting the most bang for buck out of the talent available by scheming to maximise the talents of his roster while attacking the weaknesses of the opposition. 

 

The variety that he has also makes it hard to identify tendencies and tells.

 

As much as there is to dislike about the man as person, his abilities as a coach are without doubt... again, if only the Colts hadn't let him walk out the building. 

[krunk]

7 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

It seems weird to me that Reich is aggressive but yet his Dc is so passive. Reich didn’t choose Eberflus. I wonder at what point Reich would be allowed to bring in his own guy that has a aggressive nature like he does.

Do you realize that this current D is basically the exact same D Frank Reich practiced against Daily when he was a back up QB with Buffalo? Its the same D they played in all their Superbowl appearances. All Frank knows is 4 man fronts like this.

 

 Its the same scheme we ran when Reich was here with Dungy. I dont think Phillys scheme is a whole lot different for that matter (could be wrong). I do know for sure they are a 4 man front and most of their pressure comes from the front 4. The only time i recall Frank being on a team that didnt run this defensive style or a style very similar was in San Diego. The difference between Buffalo, Philly, and the Indy teams is we dont have those established game wreckers yet. This team is very young and the youth shows at times. I dont think we are covering that well from the LBs or in the secondary even when we do get pressure. Even in the high sack games weve had the coverage hasnt been great. We also have people not showing up on the DL like Margus Hunt for example. People who showed up last year.  I think we need to keep our scheme and make adjustments to fit what we lack. 

 

[Stephen]

42 minutes ago, krunk said:

Do you realize that this current D is basically the exact same D Frank Reich practiced against Daily when he was a back up QB with Buffalo? Its the same D they played in all their Superbowl appearances. All Frank knows is 4 man fronts like this.

 

 Its the same scheme we ran when Reich was here with Dungy. I dont think Phillys scheme is a whole lot different for that matter (could be wrong). I do know for sure they are a 4 man front and most of their pressure comes from the front 4. The only time i recall Frank being on a team that didnt run this defensive style or a style very similar was in San Diego. The difference between Buffalo, Philly, and the Indy teams is we dont have those established game wreckers yet. This team is very young and the youth shows at times. I dont think we are covering that well from the LBs or in the secondary even when we do get pressure. Even in the high sack games weve had the coverage hasnt been great. We also have people not showing up on the DL like Margus Hunt for example. People who showed up last year.  I think we need to keep our scheme and make adjustments to fit what we lack. 

 

Sadly no mathison or freeney coming off the edges

[lollygagger8]

It's the lack of pass rush that is killing this defense. Zone coverage only works if you have pass rush.

 

I've seen D-linemen drop into coverage waaaaaayyy too many times in this defense, and it makes me want to puke. Stop it. Seriously. 

 

Get back to blitzing already. The front 4 aren't getting it done, so manufacture it somewhere else. Use Moore, or safety, or something. Practice it. Figure it out! 

 

I've said this before, but the stunts they run look like they are in slow motion. Not sure what is going on with that. 

 

When one of your leading tacklers is the safety (Willis last week) - that means the front 7 aren't doing their job. 

 

New flash (to nobody) but Quincy Wilson is not good. 

[csmopar]

8 hours ago, John Hammonds said:

I think I recall Eberflus saying something about running a more vanilla Cover2 scheme last year because so many rookies were playing significant roles in it.

What happened this week?  Okereke, Ya-Sin, Willis, Speed...

So many rookies...

Yep and I think that’s what he’s been forced to do again

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Sadly no mathison or freeney coming off the edges

You mean Mathis?

[SteelCityColt]

17 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

It's the lack of pass rush that is killing this defense. Zone coverage only works if you have pass rush.

 

I've seen D-linemen drop into coverage waaaaaayyy too many times in this defense, and it makes me want to puke. Stop it. Seriously. 

 

Get back to blitzing already. The front 4 aren't getting it done, so manufacture it somewhere else. Use Moore, or safety, or something. Practice it. Figure it out! 

 

I've said this before, but the stunts they run look like they are in slow motion. Not sure what is going on with that. 

 

When one of your leading tacklers is the safety (Willis last week) - that means the front 7 aren't doing their job. 

 

New flash (to nobody) but Quincy Wilson is not good. 

 

I might be mis-remembering, but we did quite well with DB blitzes last year.....

 

Had to look it up, in fact Kenny Moore had the most blitzes per game last year of any player, same again this year, although overall we're blitzing less as a D. Some other interesting titbits in here. Tabs at the bottom to switch between seasons:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N6Jl14_zACun4aqJIYf5R7vT4T8FiXLiQKa-MGTv76Y/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

[Myles]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I know last year is a long time ago....

 

But after 6 games we were 1-5 and the consensus around here was that Eberflus would be out by the end of the year.

 

10 weeks later and NFL types were calling E one of the hottest coordinators in the NFL.   Funny how that worked out.    Even the Colts Nation community was happy with him.

 

Now, we're four weeks into the new season and there are all sorts of legit reasons why the defense is struggling and you're wondering if Reich is going to want his own DC.

 

And because YOU think that Reich is aggressive and Eberflus is passive.    I don't even think you realize that the Colts don't think of their defense as passive.    You do.   Others here do.   But that doesn't make it true.    I think Ballard and his front office and the coaches would laugh at the idea that they're passive.    And if they are, indeed passive,  then there's good reason for it.

 

It's NOT the preferred style.    No one called us passive last year.

 

When you start a thread with a false premise,  as you did,  things can go south here in a hurry.

 

Just saying.....

 

Just to be clear.... you think the defense has been playing aggressive?

I don't think it is time to jump ship on E or this defense, but I think they need to change things up a bit.   

 

[Blueblood23]

9 hours ago, CR91 said:

Cover 2 is a vanilla defense scheme wise which is why I prefer cover 1

I would like them to cover the receiver sometimes.

[bhougland]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Sadly no mathison or freeney coming off the edges

 

Was Indy's defense that great with Mathis or Freeney?  I remember the sacks, but I also remember Mathis running up the field like a bat out of hell, only to have a back wait for a second that run that direction for huge gains.  We could never stop the run and I think there was only 1 year when we had a top 10 defense while Peyton was here.

[Myles]

14 minutes ago, bhougland said:

 

Was Indy's defense that great with Mathis or Freeney?  I remember the sacks, but I also remember Mathis running up the field like a bat out of hell, only to have a back wait for a second that run that direction for huge gains.  We could never stop the run and I think there was only 1 year when we had a top 10 defense while Peyton was here.

Nope.   While Freeney was very good, he was helped by Manning getting the Colts early leads and the opponent had to give up on the run game.   Freeney would then pin the ears back and go get the QB.  He did that very well.  

[bhougland]

6 minutes ago, Myles said:

Nope.   While Freeney was very good, he was helped by Manning getting the Colts early leads and the opponent had to give up on the run game.   Freeney would then pin the ears back and go get the QB.  He did that very well.  

 

Are you saying that my memory is not correct and teams never gashed us with the run game?  

 

Interestingly, here is an article about the 2006 Colts having the worst defense to ever win a Superbowl:

 

https://pick256.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/the-worst-defense-to-ever-win-a-super-bowl-the-2006-colts/

[SteelCityColt]

4 minutes ago, Myles said:

Nope.   While Freeney was very good, he was helped by Manning getting the Colts early leads and the opponent had to give up on the run game.   Freeney would then pin the ears back and go get the QB.  He did that very well.  

Exactly, that was always the criticism of the team for that generation. One dimensional on both sides of the ball. It's no coincidence that we won the only Lombardi when the run game magically appeared and the D got tougher in stopping the run. 

1 minute ago, bhougland said:

 

Are you saying that my memory is not correct and teams never gashed us with the run game?  

 

No,  he's not saying that at all. 

[John Waylon]

Here’s something cool. 

 

[Old Colt]

10 hours ago, John Hammonds said:

I think I recall Eberflus saying something about running a more vanilla Cover2 scheme last year because so many rookies were playing significant roles in it.

What happened this week?  Okereke, Ya-Sin, Willis, Speed...

So many rookies...

Eberflus is not good... last year we saw the same issues, poor tackling, vanilla defense,no pressure...  he was backed into a corner and finally got more aggressive and dialed up more creative packages.  Same thing this year, and it needs to change or the Colts are doomed to miss the playoffs.  Went into this season after Luck ran away thinking the defense might be able to carry the team, has all the tools.  Eberflus has failed to coach them up or put them in positions to carry the team.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Something just dawned on me from Sunday and the vanilla defensive schemes. Wilson  only played nine snaps and Desir didn’t play his usual 100% of snaps do to the hamstring. That means we had to use Kenny Moore different and I think it might of limited the defensive packages we could use. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

27 minutes ago, bhougland said:

 

Are you saying that my memory is not correct and teams never gashed us with the run game?  

 

Interestingly, here is an article about the 2006 Colts having the worst defense to ever win a Superbowl:

 

https://pick256.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/the-worst-defense-to-ever-win-a-super-bowl-the-2006-colts/

We did in regular season but once sanders got back we magically got great for the playoffs. That is how much sanders meant to the defense. I think we are seeing the same thing with us missing Leonard.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

2 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

It's the lack of pass rush that is killing this defense. Zone coverage only works if you have pass rush.

 

I've seen D-linemen drop into coverage waaaaaayyy too many times in this defense, and it makes me want to puke. Stop it. Seriously. 

 

Get back to blitzing already. The front 4 aren't getting it done, so manufacture it somewhere else. Use Moore, or safety, or something. Practice it. Figure it out! 

 

I've said this before, but the stunts they run look like they are in slow motion. Not sure what is going on with that. 

 

When one of your leading tacklers is the safety (Willis last week) - that means the front 7 aren't doing their job. 

 

New flash (to nobody) but Quincy Wilson is not good. 

Right. Why is AQM been dropping back into coverage. It’s dumb. Hopefully with sheard and Leonard back things will improve.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

6 hours ago, zibby43 said:

 

The Patriots defense is "multiple."  They're running a hybrid this year, with 4-down (linemen) and 3-down looks.    

 

Basically, they actually scheme and gameplan with their defense.  They provide multiple looks, utilize various personnel groupings (just like Reich does with the offense).  Eberflus, on the other hand, basically just coaches "effort" and rallying to the football.  The former is chess, the latter is checkers.

 

I'm not trying to knock Eberflus; it's just the reality.

This. I am tired of hearing about effort and players need to hit their gaps.