Andrew's fault to some degree?

[azcolt]

We have heard all sorts of opinions about the reasons for Andrew's beatings.  If you go back and look at black and white video of Johnny U, you will see a skinny, bow-legged, slow guy who in spite of athleticism limitations could repeatedly take a very quick drop back and release the ball in a fast flick of the wrist. He got hit a lot too, just as any qb does but I think he'd get hit far less than Andrew just because of his almost robotic technique. Andrew on the other hand often uses his super athleticism to hold the ball and looks like a baseball pitcher with a long fluid delivery when he finally commits to a throw. Does that mean I don't blame Grigson for being unable to protect Andrew? No way, but I do think it will always be a challenge to protect Andrew due to athleticism and his throwing technique. I'd take Andrew over the great Johnny U but do believe Johnny would be hit much less behind the current line. Of course Johnny had Ray Berry's perfect down and out pass patterns to allow him to throw quickly. We have no one who runs precise patterns like the slow, but precise Ray Berry. Johnny knew Ray would be exactly where he expected him to be every time. Andrew has nobody like that.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Of course it's partly Luck's fault.  5 years in and he still makes some of the same mistakes that look like they won't be fixed anytime soon.

 

 He's certainly no Manning or Brady but that's okay because we should have a team around him that's good enough to win with a Great-borderline elite qb... But we don't.  

[DougDew]

Every player in the NFL needs to take measures to protect themselves.  I think its unfair to perpetually blame the OC for things like the QB not throwing to the receiver who's CB lines up 8 yards off when you need a 2 yard gain, or when the line up shows that the TE will be blocking the pass rusher one on one.

 

Its called making adjustments at the LOS.

 

Perhaps there is no time left to change the play, but those situations aren't the direct fault of OC, HC, or GM.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Every player in the NFL needs to take measures to protect themselves.  I think its unfair to perpetually blame the OC for things like the QB not throwing to the receiver who's CB lines up 8 yards off when you need a 2 yard gain, or when the line up shows that the TE will be blocking the pass rusher one on one.

 

Its called making adjustments at the LOS.

 

Perhaps there is no time left to change the play, but those situations aren't the direct fault of OC, HC, or GM.

 

On the crucial Clowney strip sack in Sunday's game, Luck held the ball for a little over 5 seconds. Allen should not have been put on an island to block Clowney, but even though he was, and got beat, Luck still had plenty of time to get rid of the ball. It doesn't matter how good your OL is, if you're going to hold on to the ball for that long, you're going to get hit. A lot. Until Luck embraces getting rid of the ball more quickly, he's going to continue to be one of the most hit QBs in the league.

[PeterBowman]

Luck's more Big Ben than Manning/Brady....but correct me if I'm wrong, Ben took a lot of punishment too because of the way he played. And it's just more recently that he's been doing a lot of the short game too.

 

But yeah Luck's style of play is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing in that he's made A LOT of plays but a curse in that he's also taken a beating constantly looking for those plays. Just needs more work with everyone, Luck, OC, etc in finding that mix of quick hitters and picking your spot to go for the big plays.

[indy1888]

7 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

On the crucial Clowney strip sack in Sunday's game, Luck held the ball for a little over 5 seconds. Allen should not have been put on an island to block Clowney, but even though he was, and got beat, Luck still had plenty of time to get rid of the ball. It doesn't matter how good your OL is, if you're going to hold on to the ball for that long, you're going to get hit. A lot. Until Luck embraces getting rid of the ball more quickly, he's going to continue to be one of the most hit QBs in the league.

 

I've watched the play and you are counting pretty fast if you think he had that ball for over 5 seconds.  

 

If you really want to see what messed that play up, watch the receivers.  It was designed as a quick throw and our receivers get jammed into each other and mess the entire play up.  Thats what caused Luck to double pump the ball and it was just starting to break open as he got hit. I listened to Venturi break the play down the other day and Luck had the proper protection. He had the back in who was going to help on Clowney but he had to pick up a free blitzer and really all Allen was supposed to do was slow Clowney down, which he really didn't do. If he slows him down for another second they probably score.  The receivers are what really cooked that play.  

[WarGhost21]

Yes, but not as much as we are led to believe. This team is built around the deep ball, meaning Luck has to take more time in the pocket so the play can develop. It doesn't help that the O-line is one of the worst in the league, yet Luck still has one of the highest times from snap to release in the league, meaning the Line is also not as much at fault as we all seem to think. If every QB in the league had a snap to release time of nearly 3 seconds, our O-line wouldn't look bad at all. So it's Luck's fault the line looks bad, but with it not really being Lucks fault because of the play calling of the team, most of the blame goes straight to the coaching staff. I would say 5% Luck's fault, 5% O-line's fault, and 90% coaching at blame.

[19colt]

22 minutes ago, indy1888 said:

 

I've watched the play and you are counting pretty fast if you think he had that ball for over 5 seconds.  

 

If you really want to see what messed that play up, watch the receivers.  It was designed as a quick throw and our receivers get jammed into each other and mess the entire play up.  Thats what caused Luck to double pump the ball and it was just starting to break open as he got hit. I listened to Venturi break the play down the other day and Luck had the proper protection. He had the back in who was going to help on Clowney but he had to pick up a free blitzer and really all Allen was supposed to do was slow Clowney down, which he really didn't do. If he slows him down for another second they probably score.  The receivers are what really cooked that play.  

This. Not to mention the play call which was an incredibly poor job of stressing the defense. 

[Luck2Hilton4TD]

If we hire a new head coach, I'd like to see it be an offensive minded coach who can continue to help Luck improve his mechanics and get rid of the football faster. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

26 minutes ago, indy1888 said:

 

I've watched the play and you are counting pretty fast if you think he had that ball for over 5 seconds.  

 

 

You could be right. Someone posted a Vine of it on Twitter with a second counter, and it had just clicked over to 5 when Clowney hit Luck. It could've been a little off though. But, nevertheless, in that situation, even 4 seconds is WAY too long. If the first option isn't there, throw it out of the back of the endzone and take the easy 3 points.

[will426]

57 minutes ago, PeterBowman said:

Luck's more Big Ben than Manning/Brady....but correct me if I'm wrong, Ben took a lot of punishment too because of the way he played. And it's just more recently that he's been doing a lot of the short game too.

 

But yeah Luck's style of play is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing in that he's made A LOT of plays but a curse in that he's also taken a beating constantly looking for those plays. Just needs more work with everyone, Luck, OC, etc in finding that mix of quick hitters and picking your spot to go for the big plays.

Big Ben got an Oc that forced these short passes into his mind until he got used to it then he added back the deeper routes what's his name again

todd Haley? Could've sworn he taught Alex smith the same way on the Chiefs and all he does is dink and dunk as well

[csmopar]

53 minutes ago, indy1888 said:

 

I've watched the play and you are counting pretty fast if you think he had that ball for over 5 seconds.  

 

If you really want to see what messed that play up, watch the receivers.  It was designed as a quick throw and our receivers get jammed into each other and mess the entire play up.  Thats what caused Luck to double pump the ball and it was just starting to break open as he got hit. I listened to Venturi break the play down the other day and Luck had the proper protection. He had the back in who was going to help on Clowney but he had to pick up a free blitzer and really all Allen was supposed to do was slow Clowney down, which he really didn't do. If he slows him down for another second they probably score.  The receivers are what really cooked that play.  

in other words.... Dorsett screwed up again?

[GoColts8818]

I know everyone feels the needs to place blame but yes it's in part Luck's fault but it's in part EVERYONE's fault who works at west 56th street. 

[PeterBowman]

18 minutes ago, will426 said:

Big Ben got an Oc that forced these short passes into his mind until he got used to it then he added back the deeper routes what's his name again

todd Haley? Could've sworn he taught Alex smith the same way on the Chiefs and all he does is dink and dunk as well

and who was Big Ben's initial  OC?

 

that's right, Bruce Arians.

[will426]

24 minutes ago, PeterBowman said:

and who was Big Ben's initial  OC?

 

that's right, Bruce Arians.

Angry that we keep getting the incompetent coaches who don't know what a slant is or 3 step drop 

[Coffeedrinker]

1 hour ago, will426 said:

Big Ben got an Oc that forced these short passes into his mind until he got used to it then he added back the deeper routes what's his name again

todd Haley? Could've sworn he taught Alex smith the same way on the Chiefs and all he does is dink and dunk as well

Haley never coached Smith.  Andy Reid traded for Smith in 2013.  Haley became the Steelers OC in 2012.

[B~Town]

One has to wonder what every coordinator sees that makes them go with the same style when it comes to play calling . At this point I wonder if Luck just hard wired to look for the deep ball and not just take what is given by the D .

[will426]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Haley never coached Smith.  Andy Reid traded for Smith in 2013.  Haley became the Steelers OC in 2012.

Oh thanks for the info

[GwinnettColt]

I lose track of how many times I yell, "Throw the ball!"

 

A lot of it is receivers not being able to separate (in some cases) and it's also playcalling.  

 

I do think blocking has improved on the line, although I feel AC is having a rough year.  

I think some of it is Andrew but there are other factors also.  

[southwest1]

5 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

On the crucial Clowney strip sack in Sunday's game, Luck held the ball for a little over 5 seconds. Allen should not have been put on an island to block Clowney, but even though he was, and got beat, Luck still had plenty of time to get rid of the ball. It doesn't matter how good your OL is, if you're going to hold on to the ball for that long, you're going to get hit. A lot. Until Luck embraces getting rid of the ball more quickly, he's going to continue to be one of the most hit QBs in the league.

Yeah, I can't argue with your post SS. As much as I revere Chewbacca, he has to know with Clowney screaming around the edge to either throw the ball away outside the tackle box or chuck it downfield pronto. I wasn't even mad at Allen. I was like come on Luck, stop patting the ball & release the pigskin faster. 

 

I do agree with Rich Gannon broadcasting the game. Luck is getting better at not taking unnecessary hits & getting down, but his reads & progressions are too slow & need to speed up. 

 

Plus, I dislike getting turnovers & not getting even a FG off that Akeem Ayers pick. Playoff teams generate points off of turnovers. Lackluster squads performance wise watch meaningful post season games at home. 

 

I need to say this: Philip Dorsett is too short, drops too many passes, & his only value is on special teams only IMO. 

[oldunclemark]

'Fault' is something fans crave..

It isn't always there..

What I hear called mistakes are Andrew Luck trying to make plays and failing

\

WE don't have the lines to beat the top teams....and some times we don't.

That's nobody;s fault.

 

Ask yourself. Which QB in the NFL would you trade Andrew for. Right here. Right now. With the present Colt teammates.? 

 

I only have one name

 

[southwest1]

5 hours ago, WarGhost21 said:

This team is built around the deep ball, meaning Luck has to take more time in the pocket so the play can develop.

Well said WG21. I rarely scold Luck because of this fact. I guess I was just surprised that Andrew took the Clowney sack I guess. 

 

I'm pretty forgiving when Luck throws a pick because I know our defense isn't great & Chewy knows with every possession he must generate points. That's a ton of pressure on the face of the franchise so I cut Chewy a ton of slack 90% of the time. 

[19colt]

3 hours ago, B~Town said:

One has to wonder what every coordinator sees that makes them go with the same style when it comes to play calling . At this point I wonder if Luck just hard wired to look for the deep ball and not just take what is given by the D .

 Agree. There could be some other explanations though such as the lack of physical WR's to get open quickly or to block for a quick screen.  

[ReMeDy]

10 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

On the crucial Clowney strip sack in Sunday's game, Luck held the ball for a little over 5 seconds. Allen should not have been put on an island to block Clowney, but even though he was, and got beat, Luck still had plenty of time to get rid of the ball. It doesn't matter how good your OL is, if you're going to hold on to the ball for that long, you're going to get hit. A lot. Until Luck embraces getting rid of the ball more quickly, he's going to continue to be one of the most hit QBs in the league.

 

You know the worst part?... It was Luck's blindside. Maybe if they want to try putting Allen to block on the strong side, okay, fine, but you don't put Allen on the weak side against a young healthy number 1 draft pick with a prowess for attacking the QB. I can't imagine what was going through Allen's mind when he had to block on that play. He was probably like, "You serious, coach!?"

[RockThatBlue]

I think a big reason Luck holds on to the ball too long is the play calling. Its hard to throw the ball in 2 seconds when so many of the pass plays are down field throws that take a bit to develop. 

 

Luck showed in the Denver game last year that he will get the ball out quick when the gameplan calls for it. Problem is the Colts hardly ever use a similar gameplan like that.

[Archangel]

I see a lot of good things on here. one thing is for sure the colts QB Luck and the WR for the colts do not Communicate do they actually look at game film or study the defense. Marvin Harrison and Peyton to Reggie Wayne they communicated well.  If you study Mannining he would look at the receivers to see where the CB was lined up against his receivers and then he would adjust his calls to either a slant a corner or a out pattern, or even to a run if it dictated it. At the same time his receivers were also communicating back to him. and you either saw hand signals or some sort of eye contact. this was what i observed over the years. Peyton made changes at the LOS. do you rarely see Luck looking to see where the corners are lined up on his WR. To me a 5 yard pass is just as good as a 5 yard run. Luck needs to be able to observe this. He has been playing the same teams in the AFC south for the past 5 years, Granted some changes have been made but the basic defense is still the same. I do not want to put the blame all on Luck, His WR need to help him by communicating you never hardly see them talking on the sidelines talking about a bad play or a good play.   

[Dudley Smith]

Is it his fault "to a degree?" Yes, it is. But not nearly to the degree of the coaches. His talents are not getting maximized in a vertical offense. Yet every OC he has had in the NFL, be it Arians, Pep, and now Chud insist on putting him in one.

 

Also, outside of TY and Jack Doyle, Luck really doesn't not have sure-handed receiving targets who run crisp routes either. I love TY, but even he drops too many passes. Manning was so good for so long because he had receivers who ran crisp routes and got rid of the ball quickly. I don't think Luck is Manning, but I think he could be great in a Manning-type offense and it would lead to far less hits on him because it wouldn't require him to sit in the pocket holding onto the ball trying to make something happen 20-30 yards downfield with regularity. While Luck has had his share of problems, the primary problem is chiefly on the coaches.

 

And this is before we even start talking about the lackluster defense.

[Creekside]

20 hours ago, indy1888 said:

 

I've watched the play and you are counting pretty fast if you think he had that ball for over 5 seconds.  

 

If you really want to see what messed that play up, watch the receivers.  It was designed as a quick throw and our receivers get jammed into each other and mess the entire play up.  

 

That's when most QBs throw the ball out of bounds.

[King Colt]

If Luck does not learn his position includes getting rid of the ball in whatever fashion then he should be traded to a team where he can survive. Being a hero is one thing, being a fool is another. The big reason many teams are hurting in the OL part of the game is not reduction in contact in practice. It is killing the OL personnel's ability to do their job. The original post named Unitas, well he was a mobil as the Washington Monument as were the great majority of players back then. Tarkington was mobil so was LeBaron and Bobby Lane but they were not the norm.  The norm now is Russell Wilson types and college are full of them. Recall when Luck was set to be drafted the media referred to him as a pocket passer while RG III was a scrambler. There is nothing wrong with being a pocket passer as long as there re no holes in the pocket. Luck will not last long at this current rate.

[theanarchist]

20 hours ago, PeterBowman said:

Luck's more Big Ben than Manning/Brady....but correct me if I'm wrong, Ben took a lot of punishment too because of the way he played. And it's just more recently that he's been doing a lot of the short game too.

 

But yeah Luck's style of play is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing in that he's made A LOT of plays but a curse in that he's also taken a beating constantly looking for those plays. Just needs more work with everyone, Luck, OC, etc in finding that mix of quick hitters and picking your spot to go for the big plays.

Ben still takes a pretty good beating. He did last year anyway. I agree, Luck is more of a big Ben type QB who holds the ball a little longer and then makes plays with his feet.

[jameszeigler834]

22 hours ago, azcolt said:

We have heard all sorts of opinions about the reasons for Andrew's beatings.  If you go back and look at black and white video of Johnny U, you will see a skinny, bow-legged, slow guy who in spite of athleticism limitations could repeatedly take a very quick drop back and release the ball in a fast flick of the wrist. He got hit a lot too, just as any qb does but I think he'd get hit far less than Andrew just because of his almost robotic technique. Andrew on the other hand often uses his super athleticism to hold the ball and looks like a baseball pitcher with a long fluid delivery when he finally commits to a throw. Does that mean I don't blame Grigson for being unable to protect Andrew? No way, but I do think it will always be a challenge to protect Andrew due to athleticism and his throwing technique. I'd take Andrew over the great Johnny U but do believe Johnny would be hit much less behind the current line. Of course Johnny had Ray Berry's perfect down and out pass patterns to allow him to throw quickly. We have no one who runs precise patterns like the slow, but precise Ray Berry. Johnny knew Ray would be exactly where he expected him to be every time. Andrew has nobody like that.

Then we need to get somebody in here as a coach that will speed up his technique a little bit make faster decisions.

[theanarchist]

I agree with the idea that Luck needs to get rid of the ball, throw it out of bounds or in the dirt, when the pocket starts to collapse in front of him. He will never be a Peyton type QB who drops back and gets rid of the ball like Peyton did. Luck needs a bigger pocket to work with. Peyton was criticized early in his career as having "happy feet" but in reality it was his ability to keep his feet moving in a small pocket that kept him upright. Luck isnt that way.