9 AFCCG appearances vs 9 one and done's

[BOTT]

It's a myth that Brady had "better teams", and that Manning was held back by weak defenses.  Look at the players Manning had, and count the Hall of Famers he has played with. Then count the HOF caliber offensive players that Brady has played with.  In 2004, the best Patriots team of the dynasty years sent 6 players to the Pro Bowl.  2 each on offense, defense and Special Teams.  And a year later, Vinatieri was kicking for the Colts.  In 2005, when the Colts went one and done, they sent 8 players to the Pro Bowl. Three of those were defensive players.  No great defensive teams?  Freeney, Sanders, Mathis?  Cato June and Gary Bracket had a few very fine seasons each.  Offense, when will another team have weapons like Stokely, Harrison, Wayne, James, Dallas Clark and Dominic Rhodes? O-line anchored by Jeff Saturday, 6 time All-Pro.  It is disingenuous to pretend that Manning was afflicted by an inferior cast of characters.  When it's all said and done, who on the Pats besides Tom Brady, is going to the Hall of Fame?  Maybe Richard Seymour, not Teddy Bruschi. Maybe Logan Mankins, not Larry Izzo or Mike Vrabel.  How about the Colts?  Wayne? Harrison?  James? Freeney? Sanders? Mathis?  Saturday? Maybe I'm just more familiar with the great Colts players, so Pats fans please add any Hall of Famers I have missed.

 

Had Brady been the Colts QB, with the exact same Colts teams, I think the Colts would have won more Super Bowls than the Pats have.  Manning: 1 game-winning drive in the playoffs versus Brady: 8 game-winning drives in the playoffs.  Manning: 9 one-and-dones and Career leader in playoff losses; Brady: Career leader in Playoff Wins and TDs. The truth is, Manning is not even a good playoff QB.  He's a stat king who is an assassin when facing Oakland and the like who has been surrounded by a cast of great players on both offense and defense both in Indy and in Denver.  It drove me nuts that we would go one-and-done with such great teams as the Colts had in Manning's prime. 

 

And by the way, a very weak argument is that Brady is somehow deficient by having 2 SB losses.  Do you think a player who plays in 5 Super Bowls and wins 3 is inferior to a player who plays in 2 Super Bowls and wins both?  Do you think Eli Manning is > than Tom Brady?

I stopped reading when you mentioned Cato June and Gary Brackett lol

[BOTT]

It's a myth that Brady had "better teams", and that Manning was held back by weak defenses.  Look at the players Manning had, and count the Hall of Famers he has played with. Then count the HOF caliber offensive players that Brady has played with.  In 2004, the best Patriots team of the dynasty years sent 6 players to the Pro Bowl.  2 each on offense, defense and Special Teams.  And a year later, Vinatieri was kicking for the Colts.  In 2005, when the Colts went one and done, they sent 8 players to the Pro Bowl. Three of those were defensive players.  No great defensive teams?  Freeney, Sanders, Mathis?  Cato June and Gary Bracket had a few very fine seasons each.  Offense, when will another team have weapons like Stokely, Harrison, Wayne, James, Dallas Clark and Dominic Rhodes? O-line anchored by Jeff Saturday, 6 time All-Pro.  It is disingenuous to pretend that Manning was afflicted by an inferior cast of characters.  When it's all said and done, who on the Pats besides Tom Brady, is going to the Hall of Fame?  Maybe Richard Seymour, not Teddy Bruschi. Maybe Logan Mankins, not Larry Izzo or Mike Vrabel.  How about the Colts?  Wayne? Harrison?  James? Freeney? Sanders? Mathis?  Saturday? Maybe I'm just more familiar with the great Colts players, so Pats fans please add any Hall of Famers I have missed.

 

Had Brady been the Colts QB, with the exact same Colts teams, I think the Colts would have won more Super Bowls than the Pats have.  Manning: 1 game-winning drive in the playoffs versus Brady: 8 game-winning drives in the playoffs.  Manning: 9 one-and-dones and Career leader in playoff losses; Brady: Career leader in Playoff Wins and TDs. The truth is, Manning is not even a good playoff QB.  He's a stat king who is an assassin when facing Oakland and the like who has been surrounded by a cast of great players on both offense and defense both in Indy and in Denver.  It drove me nuts that we would go one-and-done with such great teams as the Colts had in Manning's prime. 

 

And by the way, a very weak argument is that Brady is somehow deficient by having 2 SB losses.  Do you think a player who plays in 5 Super Bowls and wins 3 is inferior to a player who plays in 2 Super Bowls and wins both?  Do you think Eli Manning is > than Tom Brady?

I stopped reading at Cato June lol

[RecentColtsFan]

A coach can be effective for a LONG time.

[The Old Crow]

I hear you 110% and totally agree with your points about looking at things equally. However when one does look at the bad bounces, if teammates could just make a play, things really do not get any better and perhaps get worst for manning in the debate

Untouched the records look like this

Brady

3 SBs

5 AFFCGs

9 AFFCG appearances

2 one and dones

Manning

1 SB

3 AFCCGs

4 AFCCG appearances

9 one and dones

if we add in the two SBs for Brady and the say 5 one and dones for manning in which a play or two by his teammates make a loss a win the results look like this:

Brady

5 SBs and the only 19-0 season

5 AFFCGs

9 AFFCG appearances

2 one and dones

Manning

1 SB

3 AFCCGs

4 AFCCG appearances

3 one and dones

3 more AFCCG appearances for 7 overall

2 more divisional round appearances

So the numbers go to 5-1 SBs for Brady and the only 19-0 season when we look at virtual wins. Yes Peyton would of had a few more AFCCG appearances and made it through to the divisional round a few more times, but it might be a tough argument to say they could of went on to then win two more games to win a SB (three for div round appearances). It is one thing to add a virtual win by turning around a play or two, but a tad more difficult argument to give a team the next game, but certainly it can be considered

Actually one of Brady's gees if his teammates make one more play or a call doesn't go against us is the 2006 AFCCG and if we give the bad bounces in Brady's favor the SB tally goes to 5-0.

Yes one could make a point that the '05 colts could have beaten the '05 broncos and '05 seahawks, but at the same time folks could say that the '06 pats could of beaten Grossman's bears, which brings the SB tally to 5-2 or 6-1 depending on how you give the bounces in the 2006 CG and again the 05 colts needed two games.

the bottom line, Brady and the pats outside of there actual SB victories have made deep deep runs in the playoffs and have come close to a few more, when you have done that, 3 actual wins and 2-3 close ones, it tough to overcome that kind of resume.

Yes I guess one could put the 2009 SB in manning camp if bounces go his way in the 4th qtr, but it still does not close the gap and for the most part the gap widens once we start to add virtual wins on both sides of the equation.

Joe Flacco

1 SB

1 AFCCG

3 AFCCG appearances

0 one and dones

Made playoffs 6 out of 7 seasons in league

Most QB road wins in history 7

Playoff record 10-5

1 SB MVP

[JimJaime]

probably because the opportunity to do so is rare. Something happens in every playoff gave that hasnt happened before.

Ok they were down 14-0 they came back to tie, in the second HALF they fell down 28-14 then came back and tied it then went down 31-28, they go down take the lead and win 35-31.

I showed that to show YOU it wouldn't be easy for ANY team do those comebacks!

[JimJaime]

Peyton

Depends, which Peyton? The one from the SB year or the noodle arm he was for more than half the season?

Oh and most Denver fans want move on from Manning

[dw49]

Depends, which Peyton? The one from the SB year or the noodle arm he was for more than half the season?

Oh and most Denver fans want move on from Manning

 

 

I hear you Jim. If his throws weren't effected by the quad injury , I would agree that it's time to move on. I'm thinking that Elway must feel that the injury effected him.. or is he that stupid ? 

[jvan1973]

Ok they were down 14-0 they came back to tie, in the second HALF they fell down 28-14 then came back and tied it then went down 31-28, they go down take the lead and win 35-31.

I showed that to show YOU it wouldn't be easy for ANY team do those comebacks!

Who cares? They should have never been 14 down to Baltimore even once, much less twice

[jvan1973]

Depends, which Peyton? The one from the SB year or the noodle arm he was for more than half the season?

Oh and most Denver fans want move on from Manning

Can i get a link to that broncos fan survey? thanks in advance

[NFLfan]

Ok they were down 14-0 they came back to tie, in the second HALF they fell down 28-14 then came back and tied it then went down 31-28, they go down take the lead and win 35-31.

I showed that to show YOU it wouldn't be easy for ANY team do those comebacks!

It is all about perception. For some this is a great achievement. I don't see it that way. The mighty Pats, the #1 seed and everyone's favorite to win it all, should have never been down by 14 points twice to a team that barely made it to the post-season.

[Yehoodi]

And thats what i dislike about comparing wins.  With any QB.  Even like Montana and Brady, or Big Ben and Rodgers.  Wins are so tough to narrow down to one deciding factor that its hard to really consider it being all on one person.  But the onus comes down on the QB's in this day and age.

 

Yah it is never an exact science in the end.  It is lot more involved than simply raw numbers like single wins at a certain part of the year in February.  Does the person have a great coach, did he have a great backup that came in to play in the AFCCG, lucky bounces, great teammates and so on.  So I do not look just at the raw final numbers.  I like to look at other numbers like the close finishes to see if there are things beyond the actual SB wins.  And with Brady you had 3 actual wins and about 3-4 close finishes, with luck decide the fate of the team.  With the exception of the 2004 victory, the two other wins bounces went our way that actually prevented us from going one and done in 2001 and 2003 less so in 2003, however lady lucky had the bounces go against us in 2006, 2007, and 2011. 

 

So for me I look at the body of work of the player and the team and look at what is basically 6 times we were at the gate of a SB win and lady luck flipped her coin (%50 chance) and we won 3 out of the 6 which is about right.  So for me the 3 wins are indicative of 6 post season runs which includes some 18 games, which is a larger sample size than 3 SB games.  It not like we won 3 SBs and then only 3 other playoff games.

 

The same point can be made for Manning his 1 SB victory is backed up by the 2009 loss where a few things could of gone the colts way to win that one.  So you have two deep runs with a chance at a ring and the coin flipped and you just got the 1 out of the 2. 

 

Its not like some QBs and teams when all you have is a single SB run or two runs and nothing else, be it in the form of no playoff appearances or losses in the playoff or both.  Its like the tip of the ice berg shooting through the water line being the SB wins and the question is - Is there a proportional body of the iceberg below the waterline or just a bit of ice.  The body of a big iceberg is like that body of work outside of the SB years.  And when one has that big body below the tip then one has a full body iceberg.

 

And when one looks at 18 games in the playoffs to get a bearing on something one can start to eliminate lucky bounces in one game and see a pattern over the coarse of a large sample size.  And when you start to see success with different players around a individual that only further a common theme that perhaps that individual is one of the common denominators in the issue. 

 

With that said, no its not and exact science but when one sees a large body of work and a thread that one individual is one of the common denominators you can begin to look at the tip of the iceberg and its body and meaning something to that person resume.  

[Yehoodi]

 

Joe Flacco

1 SB

1 AFCCG

3 AFCCG appearances

0 one and dones

Made playoffs 6 out of 7 seasons in league

Most QB road wins in history 7

Playoff record 10-5

1 SB MVP

 

Crow, you are stealing my thunder   . . .

 

I really like Flacco and hope does do well moving forward.  Now that some of his teammates are gone he has an opportunity to show that he can still win and make deep runs with new teammates and with a top QB salary effecting the cap.  And like I said in my prior post above, Flacco is in a great position to be one of the common denominators in the Ravens future success.   So he has it all in front of him. 

 

He had a solid base to work from regarding his playoff portion of his resume and should be able to add to it moving forward.  the book on Flacco has many more chapters.  Time will tell in which direction they will be written.

 

PS How did you like Brady using your old Baltimore Colts logo?     It did not bother me too much, it was not done in such a way that is was showing him taming a bucking colt as it was him being able to still pass while being under the influence of bucking colts players.    He has had cartoons of whacking a Jet plane and Pat Patriot slapping a Detroit Lion logo in a Lion King type shot. 

[The Old Crow]

Crow, you are stealing my thunder . . .

I really like Flacco and hope does do well moving forward. Now that some of his teammates are gone he has an opportunity to show that he can still win and make deep runs with new teammates and with a top QB salary effecting the cap. And like I said in my prior post above, Flacco is in a great position to be one of the common denominators in the Ravens future success. So he has it all in front of him.

He had a solid base to work from regarding his playoff portion of his resume and should be able to add to it moving forward. the book on Flacco has many more chapters. Time will tell in which direction they will be written.

PS How did you like Brady using your old Baltimore Colts logo? It did not bother me too much, it was not done in such a way that is was showing him taming a bucking colt as it was him being able to still pass while being under the influence of bucking colts players. He has had cartoons of whacking a Jet plane and Pat Patriot slapping a Detroit Lion logo in a Lion King type shot.

I wasn't trying to brag about Flacco, but he's put together a very respectable resume in just seven years. I'm not saying he's Brady or Manning, but I think he deserves a bit more than being compared as less than Ryan , or god forbid Dalton !

As far as the old Baltimore Colts bucking logo, and not to offend our Indy friends, it's just hard to see that logo outside of Baltimore. When I see that logo, I think 1958, 1959, John Unitas, Memorial Stadium. As far as Brady riding the bucking Colt, I think all the banter between Colt and Patriot fans is amusing and entertaining on both sides. The sad thing is, one fan base will be disappointed and join me on the sideline. I've already transitioned over to Terps basketball , and am getting ready to attend Orioles fan fest at the Inner Harbor .

[jabbanobadda]

OP is a troll. Every thread he starts is a troll thread and you guys fall for it everytime. I would say he is the Flacco of the troll world...kind of meh during the regular season, but steps up his trolling during the playoffs.

[BloodyChamp]

We need to find a way to make a poll involving fans of neither the Colts or Pats who watched them both. I would be 1 of those fans and I would vote Manning because I just watched the games. Watching them both, it's clear Manning is better in spite of every stat that Brady has on him. It's inexplicable...but anybody who watched the games with no fandom at stake (and I realize that's very few people here) would pick Manning.

[Yehoodi]

I wasn't trying to brag about Flacco, but he's put together a very respectable resume in just seven years. I'm not saying he's Brady or Manning, but I think he deserves a bit more than being compared as less than Ryan , or god forbid Dalton !

As far as the old Baltimore Colts bucking logo, and not to offend our Indy friends, it's just hard to see that logo outside of Baltimore. When I see that logo, I think 1958, 1959, John Unitas, Memorial Stadium. As far as Brady riding the bucking Colt, I think all the banter between Colt and Patriot fans is amusing and entertaining on both sides. The sad thing is, one fan base will be disappointed and join me on the sideline. I've already transitioned over to Terps basketball , and am getting ready to attend Orioles fan fest at the Inner Harbor .

 

Great.  Yah I knew you weren't selling Flacco's story but wanted to point out that in all of the flurry of great players some get overlooked certain players, sometime because they are quiet.  Again Flacco has a great base to his resume and the sky the limit.  He can write a nice HOF story moving forward. 

 

Glad to see you are able to move on.  It is tough for me to move on so soon after a playoff loss, hopefully this year I will not have to, time will tell.  I may join you Sunday night.

 

Ah the Memorial Stadium, you must have many found memories of the stadium.  .  Must of been a great time, Unitas, the Colts, natural grass, most parts dirt by December, etc.    

[AndreRison]

From 01 to 04 Brady was the better QB ... From 04 to 15 manning was the better QB.

I miss the glory days of Tom Brady too, but since 04 he has been pretty average. As soon as he enters his prime he somehow lost his knack for winning Superbowls, and starts padding his regular season stats. What is so clutch about a guy who hasn't won anything in 10 years?

[AndreRison]

Besides coming back twice from 14 points down, in a game.

[braveheartcolt]

Brady has not won a ring for 10 years. How bad has he become since his first 4 years? I'm shocked he's not been cut.

Yep, this ring 'proof of greatness' measurement sure is spot on.

[amfootball]

It is all about perception. For some this is a great achievement. I don't see it that way. The mighty Pats, the #1 seed and everyone's favorite to win it all, should have never been down by 14 points twice to a team that barely made it to the post-season.

Imagine being the Steelers.

[NFLfan]

Imagine being the Steelers.

The Steelers were not expected to win the Super Bowl as the Patriots are. If the Pats are what their fans say they are (eventual 2015 SB winners), then they should have never been down by 14, especially the second time.

[The Old Crow]

Great. Yah I knew you weren't selling Flacco's story but wanted to point out that in all of the flurry of great players some get overlooked certain players, sometime because they are quiet. Again Flacco has a great base to his resume and the sky the limit. He can write a nice HOF story moving forward.

Glad to see you are able to move on. It is tough for me to move on so soon after a playoff loss, hopefully this year I will not have to, time will tell. I may join you Sunday night.

Ah the Memorial Stadium, you must have many found memories of the stadium. . Must of been a great time, Unitas, the Colts, natural grass, most parts dirt by December, etc.

The Ravens have made it easier to move forward with the Colts situation. It's a strange trip growing up with a team, logos, etc, then see them move elsewhere, then get a new team in your city in 1996, get new logos and uniforms . Still the old memories are there, and I'm still a fan of the old Baltimore Colts. The fact that they've been in Indy 31 years to Baltimore's 30, makes no difference to me. That was my team growing up, I like them and the players , and there is nothing to get over. That was the team in Baltimore at the time. I really didn't follow the NFL for twelve years, but when a team came to Baltimore in 1996, it was time for NFL football again.

I think that would be the experience of most fans who lived in a city where a team relocated. I have a friend who lives in Indy who was a Baltimore Colts fan because he liked Raymond Berry. When they moved to Indy, it was perfect for him . I think that was the experience of many Colt fans outside of Baltimore, not so much inside of it.

Anyway, I digress. It always stinks to get knocked out in the playoffs. For the first couple of days, you can't watch ESPN or NFL Network because it's so depressing. Then you start the evaluation process for your 2015 prospects, and get ready to watch the games your team is not in, while getting more involved in college basketball and upcoming baseball. Only one team and fan base will be totally happy with the outcome this year. That sure doesn't make the odds good for any of us year to year. Luckily, the Patriots, Colts, and Ravens seem to get in the dance more than other franchises, so you increase those odds a bit.

[amfootball]

The Steelers were not expected to win the Super Bowl as the Patriots are. If the Pats are what their fans say they are (eventual 2015 SB winners), then they should have never been down by 14, especially the second time.

Are you kidding with this garbage? The NLF playoffs are never a given nor is a blow out. The Ravens have always been a tough match up for the Pats and were SB champs just two years ago. If anything, I was happy for a tough game against a physical opponent as that will prepare this team for what lays ahead as the games only get tougher the further you go.

[Susie Q]

Apparently Manning has no friends on the Broncos:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/01/13/mckee-peyton-manning-miserably-failed-test-of-courage-has-no-friends-on-broncos/

Apparently he does have some friends  he received the Bart Starr Award - the award that is given annually to a player who exemplifies character and leadership on and off the field. Manning was selected by his peers.

[BloodyChamp]

I agree that Brady is better now than when he was winning SBs. It goes back to just watching the games.

[Narcosys]

I'm watching the nfl replay of the Colts game right now. Manning is making those throws that everyone is saying he can't do. Idk where they come up with this stuff.

[MJD42]

The Steelers were not expected to win the Super Bowl as the Patriots are. If the Pats are what their fans say they are (eventual 2015 SB winners), then they should have never been down by 14, especially the second time.

The Steelers were expected to beat the Ravens who they have never lost to in the post season ...

[MJD42]

I wasn't trying to brag about Flacco, but he's put together a very respectable resume in just seven years. I'm not saying he's Brady or Manning, but I think he deserves a bit more than being compared as less than Ryan , or god forbid Dalton !

As far as the old Baltimore Colts bucking logo, and not to offend our Indy friends, it's just hard to see that logo outside of Baltimore. When I see that logo, I think 1958, 1959, John Unitas, Memorial Stadium. As far as Brady riding the bucking Colt, I think all the banter between Colt and Patriot fans is amusing and entertaining on both sides. The sad thing is, one fan base will be disappointed and join me on the sideline. I've already transitioned over to Terps basketball , and am getting ready to attend Orioles fan fest at the Inner Harbor .

So you feel good about Flacco being better than Ryan and Dalton?

[The Old Crow]

So you feel good about Flacco being better than Ryan and Dalton?

I'm not totally sure what you are getting at, but I made this comment because I've actually argued with people on this forum who think Dalton and Ryan are better than Flacco. I hope after this post season, that is finally put to rest .

[Fire Pagano]

Manning had Reggie Wayne, marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, edgerrin james on offense.

Brady beat manning with the likes of Troy Brown, David Patten, Antowain Smith, and a bunch of other lesser names. It wasn't until Moss or Welker that Brady had anything resembling an all pro receiver to throw to.

Manning also had top 10 defenses in 2002, 2005 (ranked 2nd overall), 2007 (first overall), 2008, and 2009. They had the 23rd ranked defense in 2006 when they won the title. Brady owns manning just like he owns luck now.

Brady owns at wearing ugg boots and knowing the other teams play pre snap a la spygate

[NewColtsFan]

Brady owns at wearing ugg boots and knowing the other teams play pre snap a la spygate

 

You've been a member of the community for three weeks,  and the handle you pick for yourself is.........

 

Fire Pagano.       Fire Pagano?!?

 

Seriously?     You must be feeling pretty foolish these days?!

 

No,  wait.    Let me guess,  if we lose Sunday you'll say the loss is proof that Pagano is not a good coach....

 

Some of the fans around here are simply unbelievable.      Un-flipping-believable.    

 

Oh.....  and a belated welcome to the website.    Hope you enjoy it.....

[-JJ-]

You've been a member of the community for three weeks,  and the handle you pick for yourself is.........

 

Fire Pagano.       Fire Pagano?!?

 

Seriously?     You must be feeling pretty foolish these days?!

 

No,  wait.    Let me guess,  if we lose Sunday you'll say the loss is proof that Pagano is not a good coach....

 

Some of the fans around here are simply unbelievable.      Un-flipping-believable.    

 

Oh.....  and a belated welcome to the website.    Hope you enjoy it.....

 

;)

[Superman]

I'm not totally sure what you are getting at, but I made this comment because I've actually argued with people on this forum who think Dalton and Ryan are better than Flacco. I hope after this post season, that is finally put to rest .

Matt Ryan is better than Flacco. Not Dalton, but Ryan, absolutely. Everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday.

And I have nothing against Joe Flacco.

[Narcosys]

I'm not totally sure what you are getting at, but I made this comment because I've actually argued with people on this forum who think Dalton and Ryan are better than Flacco. I hope after this post season, that is finally put to rest .

Def better than Dalton. I think Ryan and Flacco are on par. I think Ryan could do the same thing if he was on the Ravens.

[The Old Crow]

Def better than Dalton. I think Ryan and Flacco are on par. I think Ryan could do the same thing if he was on the Ravens.

Both of you guys are wrong. The last couple of years the Bengals have had a better defense and all around team. Atlanta has had much better receivers than Flacco has had to work with. He has totally surpassed Ryan.

[amfootball]

Both of you guys are wrong. The last couple of years the Bengals have had a better defense and all around team. Atlanta has had much better receivers than Flacco has had to work with. He has totally surpassed Ryan.

Crow, Ryan had a better year than Joe despite having a MUCH worse defense, an inferior run game and lousy HC and GM. And this was supposedly a down year for Ryan and he was still better than Joe.

[The Old Crow]

Crow, Ryan had a better year than Joe despite having a MUCH worse defense, an inferior run game and lousy HC and GM. And this was supposedly a down year for Ryan and he was still better than Joe.

I guess like Manning had better statistical years than Brady all those years, but you guys insisted Brady was better because of wins !

[amfootball]

I guess like Manning had better statistical years than Brady all those years, but you guys insisted Brady was better because of wins !

Brady was a pro bowl player in both 01 and 04 - his SB years. He became an elite QB from '06 on. Joe has yet to achieve any of that.

[The Old Crow]

Brady was a pro bowl player in both 01 and 04 - his SB years. He became an elite QB from '06 on. Joe has yet to achieve any of that.

But Manning was better statistically overall , and if you go by your Ryan/ Flacco comparison, Manning is better , isn't that right ? We're not talking Brady/ Flacco here, but your comment that Ryan's stats trump Flacco's winning.

[amfootball]

But Manning was better statistically overall , and if you go by your Ryan/ Flacco comparison, Manning is better , isn't that right ? We're not talking Brady/ Flacco here, but your comment that Ryan's stats trump Flacco's winning.

No. My point is Brady has become one of the greatest QBs of all time with wins AND stats. Flacco has yet to make a single pro bowl or throw for more than 25 TDs in any season in an era where all the rules favor the QB.