Chuck Pagano

[Moopsiepuffs]

So was Luck really good or really bad I'm confused now

 

There's nothing to be confused about. Luck had a very good season, but that guy suggesting every win was due to Luck, and every loss had nothing to do with him, is just being silly.

[southwest1]

Here's some things you might want to consider;

 

 

- Who cares if Luck wasn't proven? He had a very good season in 2012, the fact he was a rookie is pointless.

 

If we are to consider that the QB position is the most vital position on the field, experience matters. How's Jamarcus Russell doing in Oakland? Oh yeah, that's right he's gone now. Yes, Luck played well his rookie year, but let's not create the false impression there were no turnovers & growing pains okay? If you're gonna claim that the 2012 roster was so marvelous experienced leadership matters don't kid yourself. 

 

- Ballard was not injury prone at all during that season, he played every game.

 

Okay, Mr. Glass played 1 season without getting hurt. I will give him credit for his durability that year. 

 

- Brown averaged 3.9 yards per carry. That's very good for a Colts RB.

 

Brown is a good RB? Since when? Hey Donald take this handoff, run, & not fall down. Thud...See, I knew you'd fall down. I can almost set my watch to it. 

 

- Allen was more than "capable" in 2012. 45 receptions and 521 yards shows he played a big role.

 

I said he was capable. What's your point? I never said he was the next Shannon Sharpe. 

 

- Fleener was a solid second option at tight end as his numbers show.

 

What the hades do numbers have to do with a less than resounding endorsement from Bruce Arians who said roughly that he's a work in progress in 2012? Nothing...

 

- The fact Freeman was unknown before the 2012 season means nothing. He played well that year, that's all that matters.

 

Oh that's right. I routinely give a crap about the CFL. Not. Other than QB Kurt Warner & Warren Moon nobody keeps tabs on Canadian Football...

 

- Bethea was good then and he's playing very well for the Niners now. Better than anything the Colts have currently at the position.

 

Bethea was not a good safety just ask Moderater Superman & forum member Dustin who will tell you he was mediocre at best.  

 

- Butler lead the team with 4 interceptions in 2012. 

 

4 picks? So what..Does he want a trophy? 

 

 

Finally, if you think that roster was a "train wreck" it just shows how spoiled Colts fans have been. Go ask a Jags fan about train wreck rosters. Or the Browns, or the Raiders etc.

 

Am I on Jags site, Browns site, or Raiders site right now? No, I'm on a Colts site. I couldn't care less what other front offices do, unless they prevent INDY from a post season run.  

[RockThatBlue]

There's nothing to be confused about. Luck had a very good season, but that guy suggesting every win was due to Luck, and every loss had nothing to do with him, is just being silly.

Funny, I dont recall saying what your last point was at all.

I never said Luck had nothing to do with our losses. Clearly he wasn't perfect in 2012. But he pretty much carried that 2012 team.

[NewColtsFan]

So basically you don't think he's God's gift to the world?

 

 

No.   And I never thought that.

 

But I prefer a coach who's a "player's coach"...     I prefer a coach who the players love to play for.   And by all accounts,  that's Pagano.

 

When Grigson interviewed Pagano for the job,  one of the things he wrote down was this....   "Players will love playing for him.  They will run through walls for him"     I prefer that kind of coach.

 

I think you try to maximize the possibility of getting everything out of your player's talent.

[Moopsiepuffs]

Funny, I dont recall saying what your last point was at all.

 

That is funny. Check out post number 30 of this thread. In case you struggle finding it, I'll just quote what you said;

 

"We were losing in nearly half our games because our roster outside of Luck."

 

"We were losing in nearly half our games because our roster outside of Luck."

 

"WE WERE LOSING NEARLY HALF OUR GAMES BECAUSE OUR ROSTER OUTSIDE OF LUCK."

 

The internet throws up some funny characters.

[Malakai432]

I wasn't questioning his opinion, I just found it funny that he said Pagano was "very good" but nothing more. Being "very good" is pretty good in my opinion lol

 

I have to say that it's a complete myth that Pagano inherited a "train wreck" when he took over. That 2012 roster was pretty solid; not even close to worst in the league.

 

That offense was primarily composed of rookies, new players and coaches.  The D wasn't special at all.  Team was average, middle of the pack at best talent wise and they made the playoffs.  The organization was virtually demolished and rebuilt.  That being said, yeah there was still some solid talent on the team but it was still comprised none the less of people who had little chemistry together which can mean a lot.  After the 2011 season many thought it would take 2-3 years to start to develop into a playoff caliber team alone.  We see they currently they are well ahead of schedule.

 

As for Pagano I do like the guy.  The players genuinely seem to like playing for him.  I think he coaches to the ability of his talent around him however there is still much that needs to be done.  Do I see a HOF caliber coach, no but I don't see a terrible coach either.  There are issues with consistency on the D side of the ball as well as the O, we all know that.  We are unable to determine if it's just simply the talent of the team, or the coaching staffs inability to make the talent around them better.  It could be a combination of both, it could be multiple factors IE lack of talent, bad game planning, player improvement and more. 

 

In the end it's good to save threads like this for the end of the season because they can change on a dime.  If the Colts start playing great out of the blue the tone of this thread would change dramatically.

[RockThatBlue]

That is funny. Check out post number 30 of this thread. In case you struggle finding it, I'll just quote what you said;

"We were losing in nearly half our games because our roster outside of Luck."

"We were losing in nearly half our games because our roster outside of Luck."

"WE WERE LOSING NEARLY HALF OUR GAMES BECAUSE OUR ROSTER OUTSIDE OF LUCK."

The internet throws up some funny characters.

I was talking about when Luck helped us comeback in those 8 or 9 comeback wins we had that year. I wasn't talking about when we lost.

Yes in our losses Luck didn't play well, but thats a big duh.

[Moopsiepuffs]

I was talking about when Luck helped us comeback in those 8 or 9 comeback wins we had that year. I wasn't talking about when we lost.

Yes in our losses Luck didn't play well, but thats a big duh.

 

lol keep trying to dig yourself out of this hole.

[RockThatBlue]

lol keep trying to dig yourself out of this hole.

Oh please. Me in a hole? I'm not the one acting like the 2012 roster had super bowl talent or some nonsense.

[RockThatBlue]

That offense was primarily composed of rookies, new players and coaches. The D wasn't special at all. Team was average, middle of the pack at best talent wise and they made the playoffs. The organization was virtually demolished and rebuilt. That being said, yeah there was still some solid talent on the team but it was still comprised none the less of people who had little chemistry together which can mean a lot. After the 2011 season many thought it would take 2-3 years to start to develop into a playoff caliber team alone. We see they currently they are well ahead of schedule.

As for Pagano I do like the guy. The players genuinely seem to like playing for him. I think he coaches to the ability of his talent around him however there is still much that needs to be done. Do I see a HOF caliber coach, no but I don't see a terrible coach either. There are issues with consistency on the D side of the ball as well as the O, we all know that. We are unable to determine if it's just simply the talent of the team, or the coaching staffs inability to make the talent around them better. It could be a combination of both, it could be multiple factors IE lack of talent, bad game planning, player improvement and more.

In the end it's good to save threads like this for the end of the season because they can change on a dime. If the Colts start playing great out of the blue the tone of this thread would change dramatically.

Good post.

[wordofmouth]

I think Pagano is as good as his coordinators.

He seems to get a lot out of his players. I don't think he is a great

strategist but is said to be a good teacher. If we had real good OC and DC

then he might be the perfect fit. Unfortunately our coordinators are not

exceptional. And if they were they probably would be scooped up as

head coaches.

[Coltswarriors]

Average.

 

It seems we always follow up great games with duds...

 

(Chargers last year, Rams last year, Cardinals last year, Patriots in the playoffs, Steelers this year, etc...)

[MTC]

Good coach?

 

He seems to be a good motivator and recruiter. 

[Surge89]

Oh please. Me in a hole? I'm not the one acting like the 2012 roster had super bowl talent or some nonsense.

[RockThatBlue]

As a bipartisan here... your inflating what he said... dramatically... he simply said the 2012 roster wasn't a train wreck... and he's right it had a lot of talent. Maybe not proven talent but it was filled with more playmakers than 8 or so other teams in the league, and that's all he's saying.

Colts fans have a habit of belittling the rest of team just to embellish the QB. Luck had talent with him in 2012 and he performed well but he also dug us big holes. The wins were not a sheer dominance of Luck but a team coming together and overcoming a rookie QBs mistakes and a rookie QB overcoming his teams mistakes.

I never said it was or wasn't a train wreck. But it was not as good as he acts like. Thats what I've been trying to say.

[Surge89]

I never said it was or wasn't a train wreck. But it was not as good as he acts like. Thats what I've been trying to say.

That clears it up :-)

[Derakynn]

I never like this comparison because it conveys the false impression that BB has never failed. His record in Cleveland wasn't that great. I will admit that BB was let go too early by owner Art Modell, but it still goes down as a failure at worst & an incomplete at best IMO.

 

Also, part of me wonders what would have happened if he remained as HC of the NY Jets & never drafted Tom Brady? Look, Bill's a brilliant HC & he'd have success anywhere I know that. But, if we were going after hypothetical new Colts HC off of existing head coaches right now, Pete Carroll really intrigues me here's why: He's a bundle of energy, driven passionately to win, & he had success at USC & moderate success in NE for awhile. I dislike his players "allegedly" on PEDs though. I won't lie about that. 

 

Honestly, I like BB as a rival/villain because he forces you to strengthen your weaknesses whether you want to examine them or not. He makes you better by humiliation or a lopsided loss. 

I get what you mean, and having Brady certainly does help. But just watching their team, you can see that he is just on a different level than others mentally. He knows what you will do, and he knows what you will do when you change because your know he knows what you will do. The Patriots haven't really been that much better than us player wise, and certainly last year and the year before their secondary wasn't filled with talent. And yet Andrew throws so many ints against him (kudos for only one this time though). He can get into the head of the opponent and teach his team what to do. I never see a pats game where I think they are overmatched. Any loss they have is because their players simply didn't execute as well as they needed to. And reguardless, Luck is nearly as good, if not as good as Brady is. So even if it is Brady helping to make him, he would have similar success here. 

[Bluefire4]

I think he gets a bad rep around here because he doesn't always coach perfectly. Tony Dungy is treated like a god coach and I wasn't on the forum back then, but did anyone think he was a suspect coach when the team gave up 100 yards every single game before he went on to win a super bowl?

[Nobody]

Wow, you are really negative. He isn't great but all you people calling him awful? His ability to get pass rush from nothing is unrivaled, his blitzes are great. And he is a GM style head coach. Needs good coordinators but keeps the lockeroom strong, motivated, hungry, in shape, etc. You could do a lot worse.

[Happy2BeHere]

Eh........ Great Guy...... Suspect Coach

[RockThatBlue]

That clears it up :-)

[crazycolt1]

I wasn't questioning his opinion, I just found it funny that he said Pagano was "very good" but nothing more. Being "very good" is pretty good in my opinion lol

 

I have to say that it's a complete myth that Pagano inherited a "train wreck" when he took over. That 2012 roster was pretty solid; not even close to worst in the league.

[Superfly Jay]

He's pretty much average. We can much better IMO. He seems more concerned about being bffs with the players instead of doing his job, which is coaching. Glorified, so-called defensive guru. Where was that when that scrub from out of no where ran over the defense all game long? Where were the adjustments? Pagano fell for the okie doke, and let BB take him to school once again.

[NewColtsFan]

I think he's very poor. A lot of his playing calling leaves you scratching your head and he never seems to have a plan B (like Sunday night).

He is out-coached thoroughly and often.

I also despise his post-game analysis when the Colts lose;

"We need to play better".

"We need to execute".

"We need to stick to the process".

"Next man up".

"The opposition did a heck of a job".

You could watch one press conference after a loss and just repeat it over and over again after every other loss. I'm surprised the media even bother asking him questions.

The sooner he is out, the better. He can take Manusky and Hamilton with him too.

 

Heck of a post. 

 

Except this....

 

"His play calls"      Pagano doesn't make play calls.   Hamilton does on offense,  Manusky does on defense. 

 

"He's out coached thoroughly and often"   Really?    You mean the same guy who beat Jim Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, John Fox and Andy Reid (twice) last year?     That guy?    And he beat John Harbaugh,  Marvin Lewis and Tom Coughlin this year.

 

The four losses this year are to John Fox at Denver,  Chip Kelly and Philly,  Mike Tomlin at Pittsburgh and Bill Belicheck at NE.    It's no shame to lose to any of those four coaches/teams.

 

And then you "despise his post-game analysis..."

 

The problem is this is what all good coaches do.   They don't throw coaches or players under the bus.   They keep things generic and bland.   They try not to stir things up.   They have their players back.   They're trying to keep things under control. 

 

But, you're a fan.   And when the team loses,  you want someone's scalp.  It's someone's fault and you want names.   You want to know exactly who to blame.   Well,  too darn bad,  but good coach don't do that.   They keep things in the locker-room where they belong.

 

It may make for boring post-game quotes,  but coaches don't care about that.   They care about their team.    Deal with it and get over yourself.

 

But thanks for your post.    Responding was like shooting fish in a barrel!    Too easy! 

[MR. Blueblood]

Heck of a post. 

 

Except this....

 

"His play calls"      Pagano doesn't make play calls.   Hamilton does on offense,  Manusky does on defense. 

 

"He's out coached thoroughly and often"   Really?    You mean the same guy who beat Jim Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, John Fox and Andy Reid (twice) last year?     That guy?    And he beat John Harbaugh,  Marvin Lewis and Tom Coughlin this year.

 

The four losses this year are to John Fox at Denver,  Chip Kelly and Philly,  Mike Tomlin at Pittsburgh and Bill Belicheck at NE.    It's no shame to lose to any of those four coaches/teams.

 

And then you "despise his post-game analysis..."

 

The problem is this is what all good coaches do.   They don't throw coaches or players under the bus.   They keep things generic and bland.   They try not to stir things up.   They have their players back.   They're trying to keep things under control. 

 

But, you're a fan.   And when the team loses,  you want someone's scalp.  It's someone's fault and you want names.   You want to know exactly who to blame.   Well,  too darn bad,  but good coach don't do that.   They keep things in the locker-room where they belong.

 

It may make for boring post-game quotes,  but coaches don't care about that.   They care about their team.    Deal with it and get over yourself.

 

But thanks for your post.    Responding was like shooting fish in a barrel!    Too easy! 

You better keep your eyes peeled for the police to show up at your door because you just murdered him with this post 

[NewColtsFan]

You better keep your eyes peeled for the police to show up at your door because you just murdered him with this post 

 

 

Thanks.    Appreciate that.    I promise to go quietly!    

 

Perhaps someone can start up a collection to Free New Colts Fan!!     

[Robert Johnson]

You should never start a thread like this after a loss,you know what most of the responses are going to be.This is first head coaching job in the NFL.Not the time to start over,give him a chance.

[Jules]

I really like him!!!

[Jules]

I think he gets a bad rep around here because he doesn't always coach perfectly. Tony Dungy is treated like a god coach and I wasn't on the forum back then, but did anyone think he was a suspect coach when the team gave up 100 yards every single game before he went on to win a super bowl?

Dungy got hated at times too. Meeks maybe the most. Fire Meeks!

Caldwell got the worst by far.

Pagano will be fine. We are not as good as we hoped this year though.

[southwest1]

That offense was primarily composed of rookies, new players and coaches.  The D wasn't special at all.  Team was average, middle of the pack at best talent wise and they made the playoffs.  The organization was virtually demolished and rebuilt.  That being said, yeah there was still some solid talent on the team but it was still comprised none the less of people who had little chemistry together which can mean a lot.  After the 2011 season many thought it would take 2-3 years to start to develop into a playoff caliber team alone.  We see they currently they are well ahead of schedule.

 

As for Pagano I do like the guy.  The players genuinely seem to like playing for him.  I think he coaches to the ability of his talent around him however there is still much that needs to be done.  Do I see a HOF caliber coach, no but I don't see a terrible coach either.  There are issues with consistency on the D side of the ball as well as the O, we all know that.  We are unable to determine if it's just simply the talent of the team, or the coaching staffs inability to make the talent around them better.  It could be a combination of both, it could be multiple factors IE lack of talent, bad game planning, player improvement and more. 

 

In the end it's good to save threads like this for the end of the season because they can change on a dime.  If the Colts start playing great out of the blue the tone of this thread would change dramatically.

Thank you M-432 this post is right on the money especially the lines "The D wasn't special at all...The organization was virtually demolished & needed to be rebuild" that's what I meant by the phrase "train wreck." 

 

There was a lot of uneasiness starting a new era under a new franchise QB not named Manning & for Mr. M-puffs to gloss over how shaky the start of the 2012 campaign really was is beyond laughable & a gross miscarriage of reality. A lot of new pieces were in place on the sidelines & on the field of play & it's amazing that we won 11 games as opposed to 2 the the year before.

 

Yes, circumstances unfolded better than expected in 2012 that's true, but I really don't care for individuals who create the misguided impression that our roster was better than it really was as if the 2012 season was another winning season & all this turnover meant nothing like business as usual.

 

I distinctly remember a conversation I had with NCF. I needed to see Luck's come from behind clutch gene. I'd seen Manning's many times, but I'd never seen Luck play at Stanford. Once I saw that Luck was able to hold down the fort & ease my anxiety over losing Manning & still win games coming from behind I was fine, but I needed to see it with my own eyes that a new QB could perform at a high level. That right there proves how volatile our success or failure really was in 2012 M-puffs.  

 

Regarding Pagano himself, considering he missed the bulk of 1 season over cancer treatment issues, his window of leadership is way to short to judge longterm yet. He's likable, but how does he motivate guys? Positive knowledge & repetition? Is he an abstract teacher or hands on visual one?  Can he chew a player out privately & then calm down & motivate the rest of the men on the field? How does he disciple guys? Guilt trip them like I'm disappointed in you & expected a better performance? Or does he hit the reset button & give guys a clean slate often? 

[Jason_]

If after 2.5 years he's not the best coach in the league then fire the bum! That's how the Browns and raiders got to the top so it'll work for us too!!

[southwest1]

Caldwell got the worst by far.

 

Yeah, it got brutal toward the end of his tenure in INDY Jules. It felt like in some circles that some disgruntled fans were so furious with rage over losing 14 games in 2011 that they were prepared to place his head on a medieval spike across the River Thames. I actually felt sorry for Caldwell not his dismissal just the dark tone of it essentially. 

[Jules]

Yeah, it got brutal toward the end of his tenure in INDY Jules. It felt like in some circles some disgruntled fans were so furious with rage over losing 14 games that they were prepared to place his head on a medieval spike across the River Thames. I actually felt sorry for Caldwell not his dismissal just the dark tone of it essentially.

Yep it got sad. I did my fair share of coach bashing here too in the past, I am not innocent. I can't rag on Chuck though much, really. I think this year is showing talent wise we still have holes to plug in. He seems super cool too. Pep is the only one I have gotten mad at before.

[southwest1]

Yep it got sad. I did my fair share of coach bashing here too in the past, I am not innocent. I can't rag on Chuck though much, really. I think this year is showing talent wise we still have holes to plug in. He seems super cool too. Pep is the only one I have gotten mad at before.

Me too Jules. I wanted Caldwell gone all in 1 piece of course & I just feel at ease with Pagano like if you give the man time & enough resources he won't disappoint ya. 

 

That's why I admire you Jules. You are refreshingly honest & you remember how actual events unfolded correctly. 

[SteelCityColt]

I beg to differ about the team that Pagano started with. There were only like 8 or so players left from the 2-14 team. The offense was completely void. Out of those players left two were kickers.

 

Thank you for saving me the trouble of posting this. The poster seems to have a failure in memory as to just how stripped this team was after 2012, for the better IMO but still pretty much started from scratch and with some hefty dead money to deal with in that first season. 4 of the players he holds up as being great were rookies who are a each way gamble at best in most cases and then you look at players like Davis/Freeman who weren't exactly world beaters before they came here. Dare I suggest too, does no one find it strange that Davis has gone from being labelled a 1st round bust who was dealt for a 2nd to being considered (by the rational people) to now be at the least a top 10 corner since coming here and being coached by Pagano, regarded as a DB guru. 

 

Rookie coach, lost most of his first season to illness, has a 28-14 (or 17-9 depending on your viewpoint) and we're gathering pitchforks? Could he improve, most certainly, but that's true for all coaches. You're always learning as the game evolves and changes. As for some of the HC calls he makes, where he does influence the play calling, e.g. 4th downs. I don't agree with all of them, but you know every coach makes dumb/questionable calls. Dear lord look at Andy Reid's time management some games, or Coughlin this season. 

 

Personally I feel each season the team has made some progress, as long as they continue too then I'm content, if not happy, with the coaching staff. 

 

 

I guess since our offense exploded the Fire Pep crowd needs a new game... 

[colts8718]

I never thought I would say this but I miss Jim Caldwell  Pagano should be a preacher not a coach

[Freenyfan102]

As long the Colts are part of the AFC south we will go to the playoff and be one and done.... Because look who we have to play against...................None that i fear from.

[HungarianColtsFan]

I never thought I would say this but I miss Jim Caldwell  Pagano should be a preacher not a coach

[YOUR GM]

You're over hyping the 2012 roster. It wasn't as good as you say it was. Without Luck, the 2012 team wins maybe 4 games, if that.

[Franklin County]

Pagano has done a very good job, with what he has to work with.

 

Another draft and free agency will make us a true SB threat.