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PFT Reporting Davis To Sign With Another Team

HarassedOffTheSite

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OffensivelyPC Active Roster

OffensivelyPC

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Yes, that's true. 

 

Yes, that has an adverse effect on the cap in later years. If the money is converted to signing bonus, it gets spread evenly over the remaining years on the contract.

 

The other workaround is to guarantee future salaries, rather than giving upfront signing bonus. The pay schedule isn't really important; as you say, that's Irsay's problem. But the money will hit the cap, now or later.

What he said.  I'd like to add that, as far as a cap hit is concerned, there's important distinctions to be made.  There's guaranteed money (base+signing bonus) and then there's the bonuses.  This is divvied up into LTBE and NLTBE ("likely to be earned" and "not likely to be earned," respectively).  Without regard to what constitutes a condition to fall in one or the other (because it doesn't always make sense when reading them, it just is the way it is), LTBE counts against the cap and this will be accounted for as part of the cap numbers when assessing a team's salary cap (i.e. they must include this before the new season starts - March 11).  So a player could have in a given year, say in 2013, a $3 million base, a $2 million signing bonus, $3 million in LBTE and $6 million in NLTBE.  In this scenario, the team already has $8 million counted against the cap for 2013.  Now if he doesn't earn that LBTE, then it is credited to the next year's salary cap numbers. 

 

The big issue with NLBTE is that if the player earns it, then it is counted towards next years salary cap.  So lets say he earned $5 million of that ULTBE in 2013 and also all of the LBTE.  In year two of the contract, the player has $4 million base salary, $2 million signing bonus, $4 million in LBTE, and $2 million in ULTBE.  In year two, you have $10 million 2014 salary counted against the 2014 cap (base+signing bonus+LBTE), but because he earned $5 million in ULTBE in 2013, you have to count an additional $5 million for a $15 million cap hit. 

 

This all just goes to say that you can structure the contract in such a way that the guaranteed portion is a reliable indicator of what you will generally play a player.  But with the Revis contract, you can restructure the contract in such a way that pro-rates the bonus, but in pushing back the guaranteed portion, you possibly create even larger cap problems with the unguaranteed portion, which will undoubtedly effect dead money should you decide to ever release him.  And with a contract that big, it could be a very large dead money hit on the salary cap.  That was the problem the Jets created with Sanchez.  And if we were to have that problem with a non-QB, we would look awfully foolish doing in signing a non-QB to such a lucrative deal if it didn't pan out.  And we'd lose all bargaining power to trade.  No one wants that cap problem, and we shouldn't either.

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OffensivelyPC Active Roster

OffensivelyPC

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What he said.  I'd like to add that, as far as a cap hit is concerned, there's important distinctions to be made.  There's guaranteed money (base+signing bonus) and then there's the bonuses.  This is divvied up into LTBE and NLTBE ("likely to be earned" and "not likely to be earned," respectively).  Without regard to what constitutes a condition to fall in one or the other (because it doesn't always make sense when reading them, it just is the way it is), LTBE counts against the cap and this will be accounted for as part of the cap numbers when assessing a team's salary cap (i.e. they must include this before the new season starts - March 11).  So a player could have in a given year, say in 2013, a $3 million base, a $2 million signing bonus, $3 million in LBTE and $6 million in NLTBE.  In this scenario, the team already has $8 million counted against the cap for 2013.  Now if he doesn't earn that LBTE, then it is credited to the next year's salary cap numbers. 

 

The big issue with NLBTE is that if the player earns it, then it is counted towards next years salary cap.  So lets say he earned $5 million of that ULTBE in 2013 and also all of the LBTE.  In year two of the contract, the player has $4 million base salary, $2 million signing bonus, $4 million in LBTE, and $2 million in ULTBE.  In year two, you have $10 million 2014 salary counted against the 2014 cap (base+signing bonus+LBTE), but because he earned $5 million in ULTBE in 2013, you have to count an additional $5 million for a $15 million cap hit. 

 

This all just goes to say that you can structure the contract in such a way that the guaranteed portion is a reliable indicator of what you will generally play a player.  But with the Revis contract, you can restructure the contract in such a way that pro-rates the bonus, but in pushing back the guaranteed portion, you possibly create even larger cap problems with the unguaranteed portion, which will undoubtedly effect dead money should you decide to ever release him.  And with a contract that big, it could be a very large dead money hit on the salary cap.  That was the problem the Jets created with Sanchez.  And if we were to have that problem with a non-QB, we would look awfully foolish doing in signing a non-QB to such a lucrative deal if it didn't pan out.  And we'd lose all bargaining power to trade.  No one wants that cap problem, and we shouldn't either.

 

 

Roy Cummings of the Tampa Tribune is reporting that you can take $12 million of Revis' base salary and convert it to a signing bonus spread over the remaining life of the contract, and that in doing so you'd create $9.6 million in cap space for 2014, pushing his cap number down to $6.4 million.

 

A. Is that true?

B. Does that have an adverse affect in later years or can those years be converted as well, with the bonus being some sort of off the cap books instrument?

 

If you can keep the actual salary that affects our cap that low, then this might be something. I don't care about the $12 million in signing bonus...that's on Irsay. And if he's willing to pay it, who am I to disagree!

Meant to quote you in my response too. 

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dgambill Practice Squad

dgambill

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When that minimum RFA tender costs us $3 million. $6 million for a punter, 4th DB, and a backup guard is poor spending for this team. 

You do realize that is a little over 4% of our total cap space correct...for about 6% of our roster....just saying...I think your being a bit dramatic. I don't agree with everything Grigs has done either but these moves are hardly dumb...and Gordy I thought played ok when Toler went down....certainly better than corners we've seen here in some years. As football goes we know we will see him on the field at some point because of injuries or dime coverage ect so I think having him as our #4 corner is a GOOD thing.

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dgambill Practice Squad

dgambill

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Really?

 

First of all, let's strike down the straw man. I don't see a lot of people advocating paying a pass rusher $14m/year.

 

But the reason pass rushers are regarded as more important is because pressure stresses every aspect of your offense. The best pass rusher has to be accounted for on every pass play. Teams chip and double great pass rushers all game long to keep them away from the quarterback. They take offensive weapons like tight ends and running backs out of the equation because they keep them in to protect the quarterback. Coordinators shorten up their passing concepts keep pass rushers from destroying them. All game long.

 

A great corner can take one receiver out of the play. A great pass rusher makes every receiver less dangerous. Every play. Forget hurries, pressures and sacks. Your pass rush stresses every element of the offense, every play, every game.

 

Doesn't mean cornerbacks aren't important, but they certainly aren't as important as a great pass rush is.

 

Also, a great pass rush isn't necessarily contingent on one particularly great pass rusher.

Supes I think me and you could sit and talk football for hours over wings and beer. I very seldom find a difference in opinion and even when I do you have a very thought provoking reason supporting your opinion. Kudos!

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dgambill Practice Squad

dgambill

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I really hope the Jets don't get Davis. But then again it is even less money they will have to try to re-tool an O that is completely void of talent.

No offense but the Jets aren't cap strapped like years past...they are ready to retool. That doesn't mean they will get what they want or they will all work out but I promise you they will be a formidable opponent contingent on qb play. They will upgrade that secondary and then you WILL see a couple mid-level wrs like say a Golden Tate or Emanual Sanders or James Jones brought in....add that to their draft and they will be better....your division is getting better....the only thing holding it back as has been for the past several years is qb play...you still don't have anything close to an all pro caliber qb on any of those rosters. You should still win your division but its going to be those grind it out type wins imo.

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

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No offense but the Jets aren't cap strapped like years past...they are ready to retool. That doesn't mean they will get what they want or they will all work out but I promise you they will be a formidable opponent contingent on qb play. They will upgrade that secondary and then you WILL see a couple mid-level wrs like say a Golden Tate or Emanual Sanders or James Jones brought in....add that to their draft and they will be better....your division is getting better....the only thing holding it back as has been for the past several years is qb play...you still don't have anything close to an all pro caliber qb on any of those rosters. You should still win your division but its going to be those grind it out type wins imo.

I agree about the division. It was the second best in the AFC last year and if Miami didn't lay two complete eggs against divisional opponents the last two weeks then they would have been the sixth seed.

 

I disagree about the Jets. As long as Ryan is there the focus will be on the defense and the offense will suffer because he does not know how to develop a QB or will always take a defensive player over an offensive one. They will continue to be a .500 team because the D will carry the day but they will never threaten the Pats for the division.

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BrentMc11 Walk On

BrentMc11

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Lol, start the panic mode.

TKnight, pass me the apple juice!

I'll take vodka please!  How did I miss 11+ pages of this?  :)  

 

Whomever Davis goes to, my hopes are he gets beaten badly in every game :)  If he signs with us, we need strong press coverage...solid coverage period....Exclamation point!!!

 

Regardless, my hopes are he knows the quarterback he is playing against...Football IQ?  Zero!  :)

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Jason_ Hall of Famer

Jason_

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I agree about the division. It was the second best in the AFC last year and if Miami didn't lay two complete eggs against divisional opponents the last two weeks then they would have been the sixth seed.

 

I disagree about the Jets. As long as Ryan is there the focus will be on the defense and the offense will suffer because he does not know how to develop a QB or will always take a defensive player over an offensive one. They will continue to be a .500 team because the D will carry the day but they will never threaten the Pats for the division.

 

So is John Idzik just a figure head then?

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dw49 Active Roster

dw49

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So what? It doesn't make sense to pay that kind of money for a cornerback, no matter what Peter King says.

 

And then there's the whole "Peter King is wrong" thing. Cornerbacks don't make quarterback money. No one other than Revis makes more than $10m/year. The next ten cornerbacks average $8.75m/year. The top ten quarterbacks make $18.75m/year. There's no comparison.

 

 

OK... I'll ask you this question. What do you think Grigson's back up plan is (was) when he decided not to franchise Davis ? It appears to me that there are not going to be any good replacements at a good cost in free agency. Pick 58 can't be the plan. I really don't get it. This type defense really needs a good cover corner. It can't be that he was confident that they could sign Davis and just said they wouldn't franchise him ? I also wonder what their "plan" was for Davis. 

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dw49 Active Roster

dw49

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Yeah, weird twist. Although I will wait to see if Talib signs officially.

 

What happened with Davis? Why not franchise him?

 

 

Dunno... Pagano said "they have a plan for Davis." If he walks , I'm dying to know what it was. I'm still having a hard time believing they let him sign elsewhere. He still hasn't been really linked to another team , so I'm still hopeful. 

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bavanlan Walk On

bavanlan

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Yeah, weird twist. Although I will wait to see if Talib signs officially.

 

What happened with Davis? Why not franchise him?

 

Probably a combination of wanting to see what the market would give him (despite being able to negotiate, no one will bother since they don't want to give up two firsts) and not seeing value in giving him $10m+ for a year.

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bavanlan Walk On

bavanlan

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Dunno... Pagano said "they have a plan for Davis." If he walks , I'm dying to know what it was. I'm still having a hard time believing they let him sign elsewhere. He still hasn't been really linked to another team , so I'm still hopeful. 

 

I imagine the 'plan' was to let Davis get the best offer and have him give the Colts a chance to match.

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sweetsurrender Walk On

sweetsurrender

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I think it is interesting that we're not hearing ANYTHING at all about Vontae this morning. If that continues, I have to think it was all smoke by his agent to provoke Grigson to raise his number.....and I'm doubting he would. If no more comes out, Davis'll be a Colt.

I hope you are right. But FA is not until 4:00 p.m. EST officially. 

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PeterBowman Active Roster

PeterBowman

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I think it is interesting that we're not hearing ANYTHING at all about Vontae this morning. If that continues, I have to think it was all smoke by his agent to provoke Grigson to raise his number.....and I'm doubting he would. If no more comes out, Davis'll be a Colt.

now if that's the case....the Colts improve their D line AND keep Davis? couldn't ask for a better scenario.....if they can't keep davis..keep focusing on the line and go for some mid tier solid CBs instead

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

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Dunno... Pagano said "they have a plan for Davis." If he walks , I'm dying to know what it was. I'm still having a hard time believing they let him sign elsewhere. He still hasn't been really linked to another team , so I'm still hopeful. 

I think he is worth the 10 mil given his age and production. I would think the Jets would push for him hard given they released Cro. Maybe SF too.

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dw49 Active Roster

dw49

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I imagine the 'plan' was to let Davis get the best offer and have him give the Colts a chance to match.

 

 

Probably so. It just seems hard for me to understand if the market is 10 mill a year , why you wouldn't franchise him and at least give yourself a year to replace him. So just wondering what the "plan" is if they don't resign him. Over pay for a lessor type FA CB ? Maybe I'm over estimating the value of a shut down CB in this offense. To be truthful , my opinion is that Grigson badly miscalculated the market for him and the Colts would have franchised him if they knew what would unfold. But there is so much conjecture in what I have here.. for all we know Davis and the Colts might be just hammering out the last few details of a new deal. I'm having a hard time believing these reports that we're letting him walk...

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dw49 Active Roster

dw49

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Ehhh a lot of people are. And Davis was not a shut-down corner. He was a relatively good Man cover corner but I don't think any opposing Quarterbacks were/are scared of him. ;)

 

 

Could be that I am and I guess there's a point where the money is going to exceed the worth. It's not Andrew Luck we're talking about.

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bavanlan Walk On

bavanlan

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I wish there was some type of tag for that. 

 

 

Probably so. It just seems hard for me to understand if the market is 10 mill a year , why you wouldn't franchise him and at least give yourself a year to replace him. So just wondering what the "plan" is if they don't resign him. Over pay for a lessor type FA CB ? Maybe I'm over estimating the value of a shut down CB in this offense. To be truthful , my opinion is that Grigson badly miscalculated the market for him and the Colts would have franchised him if they knew what would unfold. But there is so much conjecture in what I have here.. for all we know Davis and the Colts might be just hammering out the last few details of a new deal. I'm having a hard time believing these reports that we're letting him walk...

 

Grigson must not have thought he was worth $11.8M.

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Superman Ring of Honor

Superman

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OK... I'll ask you this question. What do you think Grigson's back up plan is (was) when he decided not to franchise Davis ? It appears to me that there are not going to be any good replacements at a good cost in free agency. Pick 58 can't be the plan. I really don't get it. This type defense really needs a good cover corner. It can't be that he was confident that they could sign Davis and just said they wouldn't franchise him ? I also wonder what their "plan" was for Davis. 

 

I think there are good replacements at good cost in free agency. I might be as wrong as I've ever been about anything, but players like Tarell Brown, DRC and a couple others will be decent players at less cost.

 

Also, I don't think franchising him was part of the plan at any point. The CB tag value is over-inflated due to Revis and a couple other contracts that didn't reflect the presumed CB market value. Of course, that market value has gone up in the past couple weeks, with Grimes and Shields signing big deals, but neither of them signed for $11m/year. 

 

To me, the plan seemed to be "we have an offer in mind, we'll negotiate and see what happens, and if we can't agree, then we'll spend that money elsewhere." It's Free Agency 101, and I don't get why people are so shocked by this approach. People have been complaining about the $4m/year for Walden and the $5.5m/year for RJF (with reasonable guaranteed money), but we should just give Davis whatever he wants? I don't get it. Can't just buckle to players' demands without regard for your cap situation moving forward. There's been no indication from Grigson's previous moves that he'd do anything so reckless.

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Nyvart Walk On

Nyvart

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We have a lot of needs but this draft is deep with corner talent.  I think Vontae was above average but I'm okay with us not matching a high-ball offer for him.

 

I would love to draft Stanley Jean Baptiste in the 2nd round.

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NewEra Walk On

NewEra

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We have a lot of needs but this draft is deep with corner talent. I think Vontae was above average but I'm okay with us not matching a high-ball offer for him.

I would love to draft Stanley Jean Baptiste in the 2nd round.

Imagine him on one side with browner on the other? Huge!!! Butler in the slot. Landry and Byrd or any other decent fs

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bavanlan Walk On

bavanlan

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I think there are good replacements at good cost in free agency. I might be as wrong as I've ever been about anything, but players like Tarell Brown, DRC and a couple others will be decent players at less cost.

 

Also, I don't think franchising him was part of the plan at any point. The CB tag value is over-inflated due to Revis and a couple other contracts that didn't reflect the presumed CB market value. Of course, that market value has gone up in the past couple weeks, with Grimes and Shields signing big deals, but neither of them signed for $11m/year. 

 

To me, the plan seemed to be "we have an offer in mind, we'll negotiate and see what happens, and if we can't agree, then we'll spend that money elsewhere." It's Free Agency 101, and I don't get why people are so shocked by this approach. People have been complaining about the $4m/year for Walden and the $5.5m/year for RJF (with reasonable guaranteed money), but we should just give Davis whatever he wants? I don't get it. Can't just buckle to players' demands without regard for your cap situation moving forward. There's been no indication from Grigson's previous moves that he'd do anything so reckless.

 

It's a holdover from the Polian philosophy of the have and the have-nots.

 

You're either going to be the highest paid or not-signed.  He gave Kelvin Hayden over $8m APY in 2011!

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