Should Colts Switch to 4-3?

[Coltscrazy]

How flexible is coach Pagano?  When Wenrer was drafted, one scout said he was the next Ryan Kerrigan.  Our front7 is bad anyway, we wouldn't need a huge overhaul.  With Werner and Mathis we would be set at DE.  All we would have to do is add an impact DT, something Pollian refused to do.  I'm not saying go back to the Cover2 days, we could still be an attacking defense.  Someone who knows much more about football, please fill me in on how much hybrid 4-3 we play already.  Do we already use Werner that way for many snaps?

 

I have been listening to the build the trenches posters, and I think they are correct.  If there is a way for Werner to make an impact, I say do it.  Instead of shelling out big bucks to Davis, get a DL in free agency instead.  What about Lamar Houston?.  Then trade down and draft a DL in the third and pick up a DB with your extra pick. 

 

Mathis  Houston  Urban  Werner

 

Then sign Mack and Travelle Wharten.  Without all that money to DBs you could build the Trenches.

 

Castonzo  Thomas  Mack Wharten Cherilus

[Dustin]

It's not like the defense would be better in a 43 than it is currently.

 

And Lamar Houston is a DE, not a DT.

[Insert Colts Pun Here]

I don't think so. 

 

The organisation seem to have high hopes for Chapman who would pretty much be a write off if we switched to a 4-3. He played a fair amount this season and looked decent for the most part. We probably need to be building the defence around him if anything. Not switching to a system that he doesn't fit into.

 

I also think, from the comments that were made after the draft, that the Colts see a lot of potential in Werner as an edge rusher. We wouldn't have drafted him round 1 if they didn't. Again, we need to be building the defence around our young players like Werner rather than changing the system that he has just spent his first year learning.

 

Last year was our first real season with the 3-4 defence and I think we looked really good at times. Great defences aren't built overnight. I think we just need to add a few more pieces during the off-season and continue to build and grow. Switching back to a 4-3 would be very counter-productive imo.

[PrincetonTiger]

Pass

[dwatkins27]

Personally, I have always been a big fan of the 4-3 over the 3-4. I traditionally like having 4 with their hand in the dirt. I have grown more fond of the 3-4 over the years, but you have to have the right personnel to be effective. Right now I do believe that the 3-4 for the colts will work itself out with still getting the proper players to be a very effective defense.

[USAFHoosier]

How flexible is coach Pagano?  When Wenrer was drafted, one scout said he was the next Ryan Kerrigan.  Our front7 is bad anyway, we wouldn't need a huge overhaul.  With Werner and Mathis we would be set at DE.  All we would have to do is add an impact DT, something Pollian refused to do.  I'm not saying go back to the Cover2 days, we could still be an attacking defense.  Someone who knows much more about football, please fill me in on how much hybrid 4-3 we play already.  Do we already use Werner that way for many snaps?

 

I have been listening to the build the trenches posters, and I think they are correct.  If there is a way for Werner to make an impact, I say do it.  Instead of shelling out big bucks to Davis, get a DL in free agency instead.  What about Lamar Houston?.  Then trade down and draft a DL in the third and pick up a DB with your extra pick. 

 

Mathis  Houston  Urban  Werner

 

Then sign Mack and Travelle Wharten.  Without all that money to DBs you could build the Trenches.

 

Castonzo  Thomas  Mack Wharten Cherilus

Kerrigan plays OLB so...  Houston is a DE so....

[NewEra]

We play both anyways

[Gavin]

We play a multiple defense

[Indygal1218]

How much transitioning are we looking for here?  The team is still trying to get the personnel right for a 3-4.  I'm not a fan of jacking it up some more trying to go backwards.

[dudeski]

Never should have changed to begin with

[James Harden]

I don't think so. 

 

The organisation seem to have high hopes for Chapman who would pretty much be a write off if we switched to a 4-3. He played a fair amount this season and looked decent for the most part. We probably need to be building the defence around him if anything. Not switching to a system that he doesn't fit into.

 

I also think, from the comments that were made after the draft, that the Colts see a lot of potential in Werner as an edge rusher. We wouldn't have drafted him round 1 if they didn't. Again, we need to be building the defence around our young players like Werner rather than changing the system that he has just spent his first year learning.

 

Last year was our first real season with the 3-4 defence and I think we looked really good at times. Great defences aren't built overnight. I think we just need to add a few more pieces during the off-season and continue to build and grow. Switching back to a 4-3 would be very counter-productive imo.

I agree with you. We already have a year of experience with the 3-4 defense. This system can work with the right personnel. Switching back to the 4-3 would just make it more complicated for the players to start over and learn it again. I'm sure a defensive guru like Chuck will work something out.

[coltso11]

Is this even a legit question? The Colts already run a somewhat multiple defense: Mathis had his hand in the dirt like 50% of the time or something like that and Werner also had his hand in the dirt. Its not like the Colts are a strict 3-4 only defense and switching back would only set this defense back farther than what they are now.

[Balzer40]

There isn't a facepalm big enough for this question. Good God, we played a 4-3 for yrs. and our defense sucked yr. in and yr. out. What is so freakin difficult about giving this staff and this system time to get things lined out? 2 yrs. and a complete rebuild and people are ready to throw in the towel and go back to a system that was terrible here. I'm amazed at the absolute ********* on this forum sometimes. 

[NewEra]

Never should have changed to begin with

Yeah cause the little fast guys really had our d top notch.

[jameszeigler834]

No way the last year this team was a 4-3 defense they sucked worst than they did this year and this year was the first time they had a top 20 defense in a long time so I will pass on going back to 4-3.

[rock8591]

3-4 is bigger and better than 4-3. The OLBs are essentially DEs without their hands in the dirt (Werner, Walden, Mathis).

[dudeski]

Yeah cause the little fast guys really had our d top notch.

we could have got that d up and going quickly

[Dustin]

Yeah cause the little fast guys really had our d top notch.

 

That was because of Dungy's D scheme, not just because we ran a 43. Look at Seattle for example. Thy run a 43 and all of their guys are big and they have the best defense in the NFL.

[Dustin]

3-4 is bigger and better than 4-3. The OLBs are essentially DEs without their hands in the dirt (Werner, Walden, Mathis).

 

That's not really true. Neither of them are "better" than the other. It depends on your personal, scheme, coaching, ect...

[GoColts8818]

We haven't even finished the process in going from a 4/3 to a 3/4.  You don't just switch these things year to year. 

[Dustin]

There isn't a facepalm big enough for this question. Good God, we played a 4-3 for yrs. and our defense sucked yr. in and yr. out. 

 

I get not wanting to switch back, but your reason why doesn't make any sense.

 

We didn't "suck" because we ran a 43 (which seemed to be what you were implying). We "sucked" because of running and outdated defensive scheme (Cover/Tampa 2), Polian drafted small player that got injured easily, and just poor roster management.

[GoColts8818]

How flexible is coach Pagano?  When Wenrer was drafted, one scout said he was the next Ryan Kerrigan.  Our front7 is bad anyway, we wouldn't need a huge overhaul.  With Werner and Mathis we would be set at DE.  All we would have to do is add an impact DT, something Pollian refused to do.  I'm not saying go back to the Cover2 days, we could still be an attacking defense.  Someone who knows much more about football, please fill me in on how much hybrid 4-3 we play already.  Do we already use Werner that way for many snaps?

 

I have been listening to the build the trenches posters, and I think they are correct.  If there is a way for Werner to make an impact, I say do it.  Instead of shelling out big bucks to Davis, get a DL in free agency instead.  What about Lamar Houston?.  Then trade down and draft a DL in the third and pick up a DB with your extra pick. 

 

Mathis  Houston  Urban  Werner

 

Then sign Mack and Travelle Wharten.  Without all that money to DBs you could build the Trenches.

 

Castonzo  Thomas  Mack Wharten Cherilus

It's not really about the coach being flexible.  Coach's have systems that they have used their whole lives and worked on and tweaked by the time they get to be a Head Coach in the NFL.  If you don't like a system a coach is using you just change the coach you don't really ask them to switch systems. 

[Superman]

That's not really true. Neither of them are "better" than the other. It depends on your personal, scheme, coaching, ect...

Preach.

[Gibbons180]

There isn't a facepalm big enough for this question. Good God, we played a 4-3 for yrs. and our defense sucked yr. in and yr. out. What is so freakin difficult about giving this staff and this system time to get things lined out? 2 yrs. and a complete rebuild and people are ready to throw in the towel and go back to a system that was terrible here. I'm amazed at the absolute ********* on this forum sometimes

THANK YOU. Literally some people on here drive me nuts with there constant negativity or failure to speak with useful productive information.

[Balzer40]

I get not wanting to switch back, but your reason why doesn't make any sense.

We didn't "suck" because we ran a 43 (which seemed to be what you were implying). We "sucked" because of running and outdated defensive scheme (Cover/Tampa 2), Polian drafted small player that got injured easily, and just poor roster management.

My point was that we sucked while we were running a 4-3 too so why switch back after 2 yrs. of running a 3-4 of which we haven't even got all the right personel to run. I am just getting really worn out of some of the stupid things people say. Just give them a chance to build the 3-4 and get the right players for it. Its not like switching back to a 4-3 after 2 short yrs. is going to magically make us a dominant defense, its just exhausting seeing dumb threads like this.

[dudeski]

My point was that we sucked while we were running a 4-3 too so why switch back after 2 yrs. of running a 3-4 of which we haven't even got all the right personel to run. I am just getting really worn out of some of the stupid things people say. Just give them a chance to build the 3-4 and get the right players for it. Its not like switching back to a 4-3 after 2 short yrs. is going to magically make us a dominant defense, its just exhausting seeing dumb threads like this.

its not that dumb

[Balzer40]

its not that dumb

After 2 short yrs. and getting rid of many 4-3 guys and still bringing in 3-4 guys, yeah at this time...its pretty dumb!

I might add...that if not for the dominant Seattle defense, this wouldn't even be a discussion. People are drunk on the dominance of their defense right now.

[dudeski]

After 2 short yrs. and getting rid of many 4-3 guys and still bringing in 3-4 guys, yeah at this time...its pretty dumb!

I might add...that if not for the dominant Seattle defense, this wouldn't even be a discussion. People are drunk on the dominance of their defense right now.

not really

I thought pags was dumb to switch us to begin with.

It won't happen but we are as close to having a good 43 d as we are a 34

[SteelDragon]

Need better players.  period.

[Coltscrazy]

I wasn't trying to make the dumbest post ever    I know you can't switch back and forth year to year, but instead of possibly wasting a 1rst round pick, we could try to turn that pick into a cornerstone.  Most of our transition has been finding press corners.  When I think of 4-3 defenses I can think of at least three different kinds off the top of my head.  There is the Tampa2 which was absolutely painful to watch.  There is the old Miami defense of two fatties in the middle and small DEs lined up wide.  I'm not thinking of either of those.  I'm thinking of having larger , more physical ends like Werner and Lamar Houston.  In the middle, I'd go for those special players that can do both stop the run and rush the passer.  All four up front can rush and hold up vs the run.  Something that got me thinking about this was Aaron Donald.  He doesn't fit our scheme, but he might be one of the best defenders in this draft.  When he was projected in the second round, I was salivating the idea of playing Donald and Werner in a 4-3 with Mathis and a possible FA.  I guess it doesn't really matter now that Donald is way out of our range.  In my example of a FA, I picked Lamar Houston.  I eventually wanted him to slide back over to end when Mathis retires.  Instead,  think of a vetern like Jason Hatcher of the cash strapped Cowboys.  Imagine Hatcher and Werner wreaking havok with Mathis and a draft pick.  Seattle has nothing to do with this.  Eventually in our 3-4, we are going to have to get better in the front three and at linebacker.  This is going to cost a ton of money.  With all of the money we are pumping into our secondary, where is that money going to come from?  I really like what ifs, and I know it is not realistic to switch back and forth.  Pagano has his system, and he can make it work.  I get carried away thinking about things that won't happen, but I still like to ask what if hypotheticly.

[NewColtsFan]

How flexible is coach Pagano?  When Wenrer was drafted, one scout said he was the next Ryan Kerrigan.  Our front7 is bad anyway, we wouldn't need a huge overhaul.  With Werner and Mathis we would be set at DE.  All we would have to do is add an impact DT, something Pollian refused to do.  I'm not saying go back to the Cover2 days, we could still be an attacking defense.  Someone who knows much more about football, please fill me in on how much hybrid 4-3 we play already.  Do we already use Werner that way for many snaps?

 

I wouldn't say Polian refused to do it...

 

I'd say he tried, but failed in his effort...     Big, big difference.

 

Didn't he trade a 2nd round draft pick for a big DT.    But that guy didn't really pan out?

 

That's one example....   I'm sure there are others...

 

While I like the 4-3...   I also like the 3-4.   And since Pagano and Manusky are fine with it,  I see no reason to change at this point....

[Gavin]

The scheme is not the problem...The players carrying it out is

[Smonroe]

I wouldn't say Polian refused to do it...

 

I'd say he tried, but failed in his effort...     Big, big difference.

 

Didn't he trade a 2nd round draft pick for a big DT.    But that guy didn't really pan out?

 

That's one example....   I'm sure there are others...

 

While I like the 4-3...   I also like the 3-4.   And since Pagano and Manusky are fine with it,  I see no reason to change at this point....

Polian brought in Simon and then Booger. DT was a cursed position for him.

Gavin said it, it's not the scheme, it's the players.

[Gavin]

Polian brought in Simon and then Booger. DT was a cursed position for him.

Gavin said it, it's not the scheme, it's the players.

Well there are a few things I dont like about the scheme but with better players the scheme will look better

[OffensivelyPC]

We haven't even finished the process in going from a 4/3 to a 3/4.  You don't just switch these things year to year. 

Exactly.  If we switched back to a 4-3, we'd set ourselves back at least another year.  And given that the first year of our switch, we essentially played with what we already had, we're essentially going into year #2 of our rebuild, defensively that is.

[Valpo2004]

My understanding of the differences between the two systems is while 3-4 is typically a better scheme, the 4-3 is easier to find players that fit in that scheme.  

 

I think going back to the 4-3 would set us back quite a bit though so I see no reason to do so.  

[chad72]

We just need to incorporate more 4-3 formations if we say we are a true 3-4/4-3 hybrid and draft for the hybrid more than anything else. I saw mostly 3-4 looks.

 

I would like to see the number of 4-3 looks we gave teams, broken down as a percentage. Does anyone have that?

[Slick_Rick]

I'm not a fan of the 4-3, I think the 3-4 allows us to use more disguises. That's just me. We aren't running a pure 3-4 anyway, we still run 4-3, too.

[CS Colts Fan]

How flexible is coach Pagano?  When Wenrer was drafted, one scout said he was the next Ryan Kerrigan.  Our front7 is bad anyway, we wouldn't need a huge overhaul.  With Werner and Mathis we would be set at DE.  All we would have to do is add an impact DT, something Pollian refused to do.  I'm not saying go back to the Cover2 days, we could still be an attacking defense.  Someone who knows much more about football, please fill me in on how much hybrid 4-3 we play already.  Do we already use Werner that way for many snaps?

 

I have been listening to the build the trenches posters, and I think they are correct.  If there is a way for Werner to make an impact, I say do it.  Instead of shelling out big bucks to Davis, get a DL in free agency instead.  What about Lamar Houston?.  Then trade down and draft a DL in the third and pick up a DB with your extra pick. 

 

Mathis  Houston  Urban  Werner

 

Then sign Mack and Travelle Wharten.  Without all that money to DBs you could build the Trenches.

 

Castonzo  Thomas  Mack Wharten Cherilus

 

But Mathis had his best year and the teams most sacks in this 3/4 you don;t seem to like and this was with little or no help opposite him..

 

Give it time... get the right players and then see what happens... as said before we really have only had 1 year in it and it is a flex  or hybrid 3-4/4/3.. given the right pieces it should be the best of both worlds.. this will be contingent on Grigson getting the right pieces... better FA and Draft this year, than last ... 

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

4/3 3/4 honestly we play a little of both! Mostly 3/4. With Pagono as head coach he likes 4/3 & confusion CHANGING THINGS UP to bother the offense. Only problem we don't have the horses to get the job done all the time IMO.