By a Pats Fan - Advanced NFL Stats: The Myth of Playoff Peyton ,he's one of the best playoff QBs of this generation.

[dw49]

To your first point - who on earth does not give credit to a SB winning QB, let alone a three time winner? I have repeatedly said that he was not only the reason but we all know in NE, no Brady=no rings. QB is the most important position on the field and has the most direct impact on wins and losses.

 

To your second point, sorry you can't have it both ways. Give all the credit to Manning for his 51 Tds and none for the playoff losses. He has a great year this year with a great team around him. Best receiving corp in the league. He said so himself. His playoff losses as I have also said repeatedly are not all on him but neither are his playoff wins for that matter. To try to justify 11 losses and take all the blame off of him is pure insanity.

 

 

I totally stand by what I wrote. You are for sure the one that "wants it both ways." To no doubt usually give all the credit to Brady , then when called on it , you will go to the above "mostly." I could care less as manning isn't any longer a Colt. Nice guy and great player but I really don't care to argue about his place in history. 

 

As far as the other thing... It seems like you pat fans are constantly saying Manning has "the best receiving chore in the NFL." And why cant you have it both ways ? God .. been hearing that for a dozen years....That record is Manning's just like it was Marino's and after that Brady's. Would you like me to dig up some of your old post and see if you called TB's 50 a "NE Pat record" or a Brady record." Never heard anyone call it the Dolphin record either. It was Dan's. Of coarse the QB has to have a good supporting cast to post the #'s but don't try to out talk me with that nonsense. 

 

So yeah... the record of 51 TD's will be looked at as PM's record , while a great amount of thsoe playoff losses can be attributed to bad D and no running game. The fact that you snuck in the remark that I said" none of the blame goes to manning "is something I would expect from arguing with a girl. Never said that. 

[AntonMcG]

To your first point - who on earth does not give credit to a SB winning QB, let alone a three time winner? I have repeatedly said that he was not only the reason but we all know in NE, no Brady=no rings. QB is the most important position on the field and has the most direct impact on wins and losses.

 

To your second point, sorry you can't have it both ways. Give all the credit to Manning for his 51 Tds and none for the playoff losses. He has a great year this year with a great team around him. Best receiving corp in the league. He said so himself. His playoff losses as I have also said repeatedly are not all on him but neither are his playoff wins for that matter. To try to justify 11 losses and take all the blame off of him is pure insanity.

 

If you used your brain for a second, you would realize they are two different things... wins and championships come down to teams... defense, special teams, running game etc. Whilst Passing TDs are feats accomplished by the passing offense and mainly by the QB.

 

So you can have it both ways.

 

 

[amfootball]

I totally stand by what I wrote. You are for sure the one that "wants it both ways." To no doubt usually give all the credit to Brady , then when called on it , you will go to the above "mostly." I could care less as manning isn't any longer a Colt. Nice guy and great player but I really don't care to argue about his place in history. 

 

As far as the other thing... It seems like you pat fans are constantly saying Manning has "the best receiving chore in the NFL." And why cant you have it both ways ? God .. been hearing that for a dozen years....That record is Manning's just like it was Marino's and after that Brady's. Would you like me to dig up some of your old post and see if you called TB's 50 a "NE Pat record" or a Brady record." Never heard anyone call it the Dolphin record either. It was Dan's. Of coarse the QB has to have a good supporting cast to post the #'s but don't try to out talk me with that nonsense. 

 

So yeah... the record of 51 TD's will be looked at as PM's record , while a great amount of thsoe playoff losses can be attributed to bad D and no running game. The fact that you snuck in the remark that I said" none of the blame goes to manning "is something I would expect from arguing with a girl. Never said that. 

Honestly, I don't need to have it both ways. Brady has the rings and the stats, remember? ;)

 

The point is what the record is called but what it means. It is a Qb passing TD record but we all know TDs are not thrown in a vacuum. Brady got the record in large part to Moss, Welker, etc. Just like Manning got it the first time due to Harrison and Wayne and this time due to Decker, Thomas, Welker.

 

My only issue up here is that Manning seems to get all the credit for wins and stats and none of the blame for losses. While I agree, like Brady in many games he is least culpable, he always has the most control which is why QBs get the W/L record to begin with. And many times in playoff games he has not played like the best player on the field which is what is needed to win the big games. 

 

I will let the girl comment go this time. Just remember you engaged me in this non-sense Old Timer.

[amfootball]

If you used your brain for a second, you would realize they are two different things... wins and championships come down to teams... defense, special teams, running game etc. Whilst Passing TDs are feats accomplished by the passing offense and mainly by the QB.

 

So you can have it both ways.

 

 

There isn't one football alive save for T.O. maybe that believes any stat they achieved was not the result of a team effort. Least of all a Qb who needs protection and the receiver to catch the ball. Go listen to Manning praise his team for the record yesterday. As he should have.

[dw49]

Honestly, I don't need to have it both ways. Brady has the rings and the stats, remember? ;)

 

The point is what the record is called but what it means. It is a Qb passing TD record but we all know TDs are not thrown in a vacuum. Brady got the record in large part to Moss, Welker, etc. Just like Manning got it the first time due to Harrison and Wayne and this time due to Decker, Thomas, Welker.

 

My only issue up here is that Manning seems to get all the credit for wins and stats and none of the blame for losses. While I agree, like Brady in many games he is least culpable, he always has the most control which is why QBs get the W/L record to begin with. And many times in playoff games he has not played like the best player on the field which is what is needed to win the big games. 

 

I will let the girl comment go this time. Just remember you engaged me in this non-sense Old Timer.

 

 

I will ask 20 bright young guys what they would rather argue with .....a woman or a senile old man. Should be close , but I think the woman will rate slightly as the more aggravating. I'll let you know how it comes out.

 

Brady ... Manning... what's better chocolate or vanilla ice-cream ?

[amfootball]

I will ask 20 bright young guys what they would rather argue with .....a woman or a senile old man. Should be close , but I think the woman will rate slightly as the more aggravating. I'll let you know how it comes out.

 

Brady ... Manning... what's better chocolate or vanilla ice-cream ?

Yes, I think I would lose by a nose. But in your defense, you can be very aggravating.

 

In the end, they both are pretty darn good but I am willing to bet Brady is a vanilla guy (the original ice cream) and Manning is a chocolate guy (the more loved flavor).

[amfootball]

That's totally out of place; bayone is one of the biggest Manning fans out there.

Yes, indeed. I appologized to bayone on another thread and now will give myself 50 lashes +1.

[dw49]

Yes, I think I would lose by a nose. But in your defense, you can be very aggravating.

 

In the end, they both are pretty darn good but I am willing to bet Brady is a vanilla guy (the original ice cream) and Manning is a chocolate guy (the more loved flavor).

 

 

I'll admit that I was tarred and feathered on another Colt board.

[Gramz]

Seriously wondering if some people actually think before posting.......  

[jvan1973]

Honestly, I don't need to have it both ways. Brady has the rings and the stats, remember? ;)

The point is what the record is called but what it means. It is a Qb passing TD record but we all know TDs are not thrown in a vacuum. Brady got the record in large part to Moss, Welker, etc. Just like Manning got it the first time due to Harrison and Wayne and this time due to Decker, Thomas, Welker.

My only issue up here is that Manning seems to get all the credit for wins and stats and none of the blame for losses. While I agree, like Brady in many games he is least culpable, he always has the most control which is why QBs get the W/L record to begin with. And many times in playoff games he has not played like the best player on the field which is what is needed to win the big games.

I will let the girl comment go this time. Just remember you engaged me in this non-sense Old Timer.

Championships

Pats>Colts

Records

Manning>Brady

[WastedColt]

The playoff problem was never the passing game. It was mostly terrible defense and inconsistent running game. Basically exactly what Irsay said in the interview that a lot of people saw as an attack on Manning for some reason that I will never understand

[Restored]

Belichick

Defense

Video Cameras

Tuck Rule

Equates to 3 SBs

Take the defense and video cameras out - we all know the results.

Brady was irrelevant - System QB. Big deal.

Lets not forget that Drew Bledsoe came in gains the Steelers in that AFC Championship game and lead a TD drive that propelled them to the SB when Brady got hurt in the game.

I tend to take everything amfootball says with a grain of salt. It becomes Brady getting all the credit when the Pats win and his teammates fault when they lose. Just depends on the argument at hand.

Fact is: Brady and Mannings similar post-season stats show that the biggest difference is the teams around them.

[Jules]

Peyton HAS had good playoff games before and overall good numbers, yes.

 

But, the biggest knock on him by me is that sometimes his biggest mistakes happen AT THE WORST moments. Fair or not fair those are sometimes the things people remember most. Like Favre he can throw the pick at the worst time or fail to score when needed even if the events that mostly led to the loss in the end were not entirely his fault.

[bap1331]

Yea i think he has the best quarterback rating of all time in the game against the Broncos I think.

 

He does have a good record but hasnt had much luck with it...

 

(lol...oh the irony on the last sentence...)

[Yehoodi]

nice article, thanks for posting Barry . . . for me I don't get too into stats with knowing the break down . . . I start off with the point that stats are for losers and they are very situational and thereby can be skewed . . . also without knowing the break down I really could care less about the WPA, EPA or the Harper Valley PTA . . . just a bunch of numbers on a chart . . .  

 

What I found more insightful were a couple of articles written and were posted last year, going throw game by game in Peyton's playoff career . . . sorry but don't have the link handy, but they were two really nice articles . . .

[Shane Bond]

Lets not forget that Drew Bledsoe came in gains the Steelers in that AFC Championship game and lead a TD drive that propelled them to the SB when Brady got hurt in the game.

I tend to take everything amfootball says with a grain of salt. It becomes Brady getting all the credit when the Pats win and his teammates fault when they lose. Just depends on the argument at hand.

Fact is: Brady and Mannings similar post-season stats show that the biggest difference is the teams around them.

Dont bother about certain poster.

 

They disappear when we talk the truth.

[AntonMcG]

There isn't one football alive save for T.O. maybe that believes any stat they achieved was not the result of a team effort. Least of all a Qb who needs protection and the receiver to catch the ball. Go listen to Manning praise his team for the record yesterday. As he should have.

 

You are preaching to the choir here. But don't act like passing TDs and Championships can measure in equal stature the contribution of the QB... it's logic like that that creates the many flawed perceptions that already exist in this sport.

[amfootball]

You are preaching to the choir here. But don't act like passing TDs and Championships can measure in equal stature the contribution of the QB... it's logic like that that creates the many flawed perceptions that already exist in this sport.

It always comes down to situational football in terms of winning. And more often then not those situations come down to the QB which is why most believe that Alex Smith will not win a SB no matter how good the team is around him. And also why most believe Luck will win one no matter how average the team around him. Decision-making is the most important and critical part of the QB position and making the right decision under pressure separates the average from the good and the good from the great. So with that being said, I put winning more on the QB than a TD pass as a receiver can catch a screen and run it to the house or a defender can fall down allowing for a pitch and catch scenario. Winning is done throughout the game, decision by decision.

[amfootball]

Championships

Pats>Colts

Records

Manning>Brady

I will take championships over records any day but now you have done it. Old Crow will be here to tell you the Colts have more champs than the Pats if you add in the Baltimore days with Unitas. But certainly in the Brady/Manning era you are correct.

[bayone]

nice article, thanks for posting Barry . . . for me I don't get too into stats with knowing the break down . . . I start off with the point that stats are for losers and they are very situational and thereby can be skewed . . . also without knowing the break down I really could care less about the WPA, EPA or the Harper Valley PTA . . . just a bunch of numbers on a chart . . .  

 

What I found more insightful were a couple of articles written and were posted last year, going throw game by game in Peyton's playoff career . . . sorry but don't have the link handy, but they were two really nice articles . . .

 

& I posted those 2 as well ( if anyone wants the long summary & those links just PM me , still on my computer, but when this crossed my desk so to speak & by a Pats fan i thought would be from if anything a new perspective that had to be unbiased  as from a Pro  Pat analysis & thought that made it relevant even with all those weird stat  language as the summary conclusion is in English

 

( i must clean my computer, took way to long to find  those 2 articles , and I see I have so many Peyton stuff /. articles  e-mailed to me from others or ones i read and resent to myself to save besides  the said many sent me  I still haven't read, save for titles ,  over the years, just put in a folder ( s )  needing cleaning , just no time

[IndyTrav]

Some more stats for us to argue over:

 

Here are the average points each team has allowed in the playoffs: (this doesnt account for TO TDs, just final game score)

 

Peyton: 21.75 ppg

Brady:  19.8ppg 

 

Peyton led teams have lost 7 games when a team scored 24pts or less. 4 games with 21pts or less. 

Brady led teams have lost 2 games when a team scored 24pts or less. 2 games with 21 pts or less. Both were SB losses to NYG. 

[AntonMcG]

It always comes down to situational football in terms of winning. And more often then not those situations come down to the QB which is why most believe that Alex Smith will not win a SB no matter how good the team is around him. And also why most believe Luck will win one no matter how average the team around him. Decision-making is the most important and critical part of the QB position and making the right decision under pressure separates the average from the good and the good from the great. So with that being said, I put winning more on the QB than a TD pass as a receiver can catch a screen and run it to the house or a defender can fall down allowing for a pitch and catch scenario. Winning is done throughout the game, decision by decision.

 

You have no idea how little sense that makes.

[hawkeyes]

NFL QB's are judged on WINS...    and Manning has ONE big win, that the running game earned him.

 

This is not directed at you, but at the "system" in general...

 

WHY are QBs judged only on WINS?  Because that's what the system is selling so its what people are buying?   TEAMS win games not QBs - it almost always takes a team effort to win a game why does one player get the credit for the wins?  Sorry but the argument that QBS are judged on WINS does NOT hold any water at all if you understand "team"! 

[amfootball]

Some more stats for us to argue over:

 

Here are the average points each team has allowed in the playoffs: (this doesnt account for TO TDs, just final game score)

 

Peyton: 21.75 ppg

Brady:  19.8ppg 

 

Peyton led teams have lost 7 games when a team scored 24pts or less. 4 games with 21pts or less. 

Brady led teams have lost 2 games when a team scored 24pts or less. 2 games with 21 pts or less. Both were SB losses to NYG. 

Is that correct? So much for the argument that Brady had much better defenses than Peyton.

[dynasty13]

This is not directed at you, but at the "system" in general...

 

WHY are QBs judged only on WINS?  Because that's what the system is selling so its what people are buying?   TEAMS win games not QBs - it almost always takes a team effort to win a game why does one player get the credit for the wins?  Sorry but the argument that QBS are judged on WINS does NOT hold any water at all if you understand "team"! 

 

They arent judged ONLY on wins...but it is a huge factor in any discussion because every single thing in this league comes down to wins and losses. Yes, TEAMS are responsible for wins, but guess what? TEAMS are responsible for every individual record or accolade too...it's just the way it is. Do you think a quarterback is going to win the MVP if they put up great stats but the TEAM is 7-9? No. You think a runningback is going to win MVP if they score a lot of touchdowns but the team misses the playoffs? No. Does a coach even get to sniff the Coach of the Year award if the team only managed 6 wins? No. Not in today's NFL.

 

Colts fans have only recently jumped on this 'teams win championships' thing the last few years when they needed to create another trump card in the Brady/Manning debate. Yes, everything in this game is a team effort, but lets be honest here, its just the way it is...quarterbacks are the leaders of teams and therefor get a lot of credit when they win and a lot of criticism when they lose. You just have to accept it and move on and stop continually using it as justification for why individual stats are somehow a greater indicator of greatness than team success in the ultimate team game.

[GoPats]

Just adding to yesterday's discussion...

 

I don't really look at rings/championships as a metric. They're very difficult to win of course, and even for a great team, it takes a little good fortune along the way. Sometimes that's a favorable bounce, sometimes that means keeping your team and key players healthy. 

 

To me, overall post-season record is the more important thing to consider. But even that can be really misleading. Ever since the Patriots went 10-0 to start the Brady/Belichick playoff era, they're 7-7, and 17-7 overall. But the fact that they're .500 in their last 14 games speaks to the intensity of the playoffs, and how difficult it is for teams to win those games.

[Yehoodi]

& I posted those 2 as well ( if anyone wants the long summary & those links just PM me , still on my computer, but when this crossed my desk so to speak & by a Pats fan i thought would be from if anything a new perspective that had to be unbiased  as from a Pro  Pat analysis & thought that made it relevant even with all those weird stat  language as the summary conclusion is in English

 

( i must clean my computer, took way to long to find  those 2 articles , and I see I have so many Peyton stuff /. articles  e-mailed to me from others or ones i read and resent to myself to save besides  the said many sent me  I still haven't read, save for titles ,  over the years, just put in a folder ( s )  needing cleaning , just no time

 

Yes don't we all need to organize things . . .  I need to make folders in my favorites sections for internet links . . . I think I have the links to those two articles also . . . but they are buried in a long list of favorites . .  .

 

Again thanks for posting, I hope some day someone will release the formulas behind the stats the author quoted . . . but it is nice when you come across an article written by someone who is not bias . ..  

 

and hope you enjoy and have a great set of Holidays . . .

[hawkeyes]

Colts fans have only recently jumped on this 'teams win championships' thing the last few years when they needed to create another trump card in the Brady/Manning debate.

 

I have ALWAYS stated teams win games / championships and NOT single players - it is not some bandwagon I'm riding to argue Brady / Manning - personally I could not care less about that debate.  They are both great QBs and I have no desire to say one is 1 and the other is 2 - that will always be a subjective debate so why entertain it aside for the mere sake of arguing - to that I say bah humbug!   With that said I am not scrooging when I say that I despise QBs being judged by the number of accolades the team they happen to be on has achieved.  TEAMS win championship rings NOT QBs!

 

Merry Christmas!

[PATS16N0]

He has an embarrassing play off record with a record one-and-dones and numerous anti-climatic game losing interceptions.

Anything that says Peyton is awesome in the play offs can keep drinking the cool aid and indulging in smoke-and-mirror nonesense arguments.

[Gramz]

He has an embarrassing play off record with a record one-and-dones and numerous anti-climatic game losing interceptions.

Anything that says Peyton is awesome in the play offs can keep drinking the cool aid and indulging in smoke-and-mirror nonesense arguments.

and now we're back to it's all on one person, and Not a team effort...   Got it.

[amfootball]

I have ALWAYS stated teams win games / championships and NOT single players - it is not some bandwagon I'm riding to argue Brady / Manning - personally I could not care less about that debate.  They are both great QBs and I have no desire to say one is 1 and the other is 2 - that will always be a subjective debate so why entertain it aside for the mere sake of arguing - to that I say bah humbug!   With that said I am not scrooging when I say that I despise QBs being judged by the number of accolades the team they happen to be on has achieved.  TEAMS win championship rings NOT QBs!

 

Merry Christmas!

You missed the point. This isn't some agenda by the NFL to make everything about winning. Winning is what drives the bus. You ask any owner, GM or coach what they want most and all will say a win no matter how they get it. Now to your point about QBs. While no single player does completely determine an outcome of a game, the QB position impacts the outcome of the most. It is why the Redskins traded all those picks to the Rams to get RG. It is why Irsay said good-bye to Manning in favor of the "next Elway" in Luck. It is why the Packers seasons is over without Rodgers. It is why the Cowboys have no chance vs the Eagles on Sunday with Orton. It is why the Broncos have been relevant the past two seasons. And it is why the Pats became a dynasty.

 

[hawkeyes]

And it is why the Pats became a dynasty.

 

 

ROFL ....  ok.

[Fx Stryker]

Let me ask you and please answer honestly as I know Manning is your favorite player and I respect your opinion a lot. Aren't articles like this embarrassing? And I am speaking honestly here. In no way do I blame Manning for all of his playoff losses or for some of his playoff wins for that matter. But to have an article like this post chart after chart trying to explain away 11 playoff losses borders on pathetic. His record is what it is. And I do think the criticism he receives is unfair at times but the praises as well. He said himself yesterday that his 51 TDs were a team accomplishment yet we put that whole record on him but playoff losses aren't on him? The double standard is stunning.

What makes you assume the research was based on trying to make excuses for Peyton? For all you know the original research could have been trying to prove why Tom Brady is head and shoulders above everyone else, and in the end it turned out Peyton was better.

Have you never ran a science experiment? You're hypothesis is never right or rarely for the times it is.

[Narcosys]

Oh no, in cometh the Brady fans...1,2,3...

You so called it...not a minute later.  Excellent timing my friend.

[Narcosys]

   and Manning has ONE big win, that the running game earned him.

And Brady only has his wins through the leg of a kicker. 

[amfootball]

What makes you assume the research was based on trying to make excuses for Peyton? For all you know the original research could have been trying to prove why Tom Brady is head and shoulders above everyone else, and in the end it turned out Peyton was better. Have you never ran a science experiment? You're hypothesis is never right or rarely for the times it is.

If he wasn't 9-11 would there be any reason for this "research?"

[Fx Stryker]

If he wasn't 9-11 would there be any reason for this "research?"

You're not getting my question. Who is to say the research was centered around Peyton?

You're assuming the initial research was made to eradicate Peyton of something. Could it have been a fan was just curious to see how each quarterback has performed and these were the results?

What if the title was made "The Current Quarterbacks and Their Playoff Performance."

[Narcosys]

Let me ask you and please answer honestly as I know Manning is your favorite player and I respect your opinion a lot. Aren't articles like this embarrassing? And I am speaking honestly here. In no way do I blame Manning for all of his playoff losses or for some of his playoff wins for that matter. But to have an article like this post chart after chart trying to explain away 11 playoff losses borders on pathetic. His record is what it is. And I do think the criticism he receives is unfair at times but the praises as well. He said himself yesterday that his 51 TDs were a team accomplishment yet we put that whole record on him but playoff losses aren't on him? The double standard is stunning. 

Its not a double standard if one person says one way and another person says another.  Double standard is one person having contradictory views that benefit themselves.  Kinda like hypocrisy.  You yourself seem to have a double standard.  You say you dont give credit or all the praise for all of mannings losses and wins.  I know for sure that you dont give credit for losses to Brady, and from some of your previous posts on this topic you definitely seem to give all the credit to Brady on all his wins, especially when talking about superbowls.  We just had this discussion in another topic where i kept pointing out team aspects of your argument compared to individual aspects.  You kept giving brady all the credit towards his individual stats that are clearly team aspects.  But now you dont give credit to manning for the same thing...That my friend, is a double standard.

[Shane Bond]

 And it is why the Pats became a dynasty.

 

 

Dynasty of?.

 

If you are referring to those 2001 to 2004, there is a word which starts with "S" comes to my mind first. 

 

On the other hand, 1960s Celtics i like to call a Dynasty.

[braveheartcolt]

Just adding to yesterday's discussion...

 

I don't really look at rings/championships as a metric. They're very difficult to win of course, and even for a great team, it takes a little good fortune along the way. Sometimes that's a favorable bounce, sometimes that means keeping your team and key players healthy. 

 

To me, overall post-season record is the more important thing to consider. But even that can be really misleading. Ever since the Patriots went 10-0 to start the Brady/Belichick playoff era, they're 7-7, and 17-7 overall. But the fact that they're .500 in their last 14 games speaks to the intensity of the playoffs, and how difficult it is for teams to win those games.

Consider this, and any other debate on this rather tedious subject now officially closed. Post of the Year nom.