By a Pats Fan - Advanced NFL Stats: The Myth of Playoff Peyton ,he's one of the best playoff QBs of this generation.

[Fx Stryker]

lol. The title says: "The Myth of Playoff Peyton." The author says up front in the first five paragraphs that he has put together his "research" to debunk the notion that Peyton is not a good playoff QB.

I don't see it. Do you mind showing me where it says that?

[amfootball]

I don't see it. Do you mind showing me where it says that?

Are you being serious? What do you think this article is about if not Peyton's playoff record and trying to show he is a better Qb than his playoff record would indicate based on some advanced stats/research that the author came up with?

 

Below are the first few graphs where the author states that he is about to try to prove how Manning has been a better QB in the post-season then people perceived. After this intro he then talks about Peyton's numbers in the regular season vs the post season then Peyton's numbers vs his peers.

 

Let's play a quick word association game.  I say "Peyton Manning in the playoffs," and you tell me what images your mind conjures up.

For someone who may be the greatest quarterback in NFL history, the picture isn't quite befitting. You probably imagined something like Peyton hanging his head in the snowy Foxboro winter, or slumped over following his pick-six against the Saints in the Super Bowl.  Or perhaps just a general expression of chagrin, like the hilariously petulant "Manning Face."

Yes, Manning does have a losing record in the playoffs for his career (though only eight have had more wins, but who has time to split hairs?).  The next time Manning loses a playoff game will give him the record for most career playoff losses, and fairly or not, that will always be a part of his legacy.

Most rational fans realize that Peyton has only thrown up a handful of postseason clunkers, and that such a small sample size should not significantly affect his standing as an all-time great.  They might defend by saying, "Yeah, Peyton's been a bit worse in the playoffs, but his regular-season numbers are so great that it doesn't matter."

Actually, even that statement would be false.  What people fail to realize is that Peyton has not been any worse in the postseason.  In fact, one could make a fairly convincing argument that he's been one of the two or three best playoff quarterbacks of this generation.

To illustrate this point, let's take off our "Embrace Debate" hats and let the numbers tell the story.

 

And then further down,

But even including the Jets loss, Manning's postseason WPA is almost identical to his regular-season WPA.  This would seemingly DEBUNK the notion that he is somehow not clutch in the playoffs. 

 

[Narcosys]

I tell you what I am willing to give all the credit to Brady and Manning for their wins and all the blame for their losses and also all the credit for their stats even though those are a team achievement as well as pointed out by Manning is his post game conference last Sunday after he broke the TD record. As Yehoodi would say, just be consistent all the way around. Whatever you apply to one be sure to apply to the other. Deal?

I for one have always been consistent with the team and individual thing, so thats not a problem.  Hope the same can go for you, just remember this for future posts lol.

[amfootball]

I for one have always been consistent with the team and individual thing, so thats not a problem.  Hope the same can go for you, just remember this for future posts lol.

I have been too. lol.

[bayone]

I don't see it. Do you mind showing me where it says that?

 

 

lol. The title says: "The Myth of Playoff Peyton."  The author says up front in the first five paragraphs that he has put together his "research" to debunk the notion that Peyton is not a good playoff QB.

 

absolutely misquoting

 

1. the author is a Pat fan that sets out to see if its true or not that Peyton has playoff issues

 

2. no Debunk in first 5 paragphs at all

 

3 Paragragph 6 

 

he discuses 

 

To illustrate this point, let's take off our "Embrace Debate" hats and let the numbers tell the story.

 

& sets out using research stats to see if its true or not to that Manning has a playoff issue

 

4.  Paragragh 9 aftrer & after a stat chart  he uses the word debunk in the following sentance only after stats are used to back it up, he uses it in exactly the opposite way u do

 

 . This would seemingly debunk the notion that he is somehow not clutch in the playoffs. If Manning truly did choke all the time, then we would not expect his WPA to remain constant despite less raw statistical production, as reflected by his lower EPA.  (( read article for term meanings ))

 

He never said as u say author says up front in the first five paragraphs that he has put together his "research" to debunk the notion that Peyton is not a good playoff QB.

 

u r implying he has said that  he did reserch to prove  its a myth with a precognition of it being one

 

no where does he state that

 

He simply sets out and does research to see without a predetermined goal in mind & hes a Pat fan YET if the word as u would use choker etc and fails in playoffs is appropriate & to him it isnt, & using stats  concludes among other things  

 

Brees stands out as the clear star in this,

 

but Peyton's numbers are better are in line with everyone else on that list. The sample size of throws is quite small given the parameters, but it repudiates the notion that Peyton chokes under postseason pressure. The skeptics might point out Manning's isolated stinkers as a counter, but even in postseason losses, his numbers are again better than just about every quarterback with a reasonable sample size besides Brees.

 

In particular, Manning has been a tick better than his greatest nemesis. ( meaning , Brady ) 

-------------------------------------------

 

stop twisting ones message, I posted a waas back after last years loss 2 artcles posted a game by game analysis of the losses as well once that came to same conclusion done by cold hard facts that had videos included also to show it isnt Peytons fault in the sense u make it out to be vbutr a team failure on many levels he has no control of 

=========================================

 

HERE They are   AGAIN & IS THE LAST TIME I WANT TO APPROACH THIS SUBJECT AND POST THIS AGAIN 

 

again done by cold hard facts , 1 has videos  to illustrate points,

 

i am not re reading again, but 9 & 11 & /  9 & 10  comes to same conclusion, just may discuss each gam,e / loss a bit differently 

 

the author of both are the same

 

Presented 2 ways  , full articles follow

 

as far as 1 & dones

 

2 GOOD ARTICLES , ((( sorry I have no time to respond to quotes nor debate this i only have time for this as its a staright copy & Paste From my computer ))) ,its been done but here is another analysis, , take the info as u wish , read the articles , very detailed & 1st after MHR summary has quite short videos as well of specific plays pointed out where team let Peyton down

 

MHR one is just a small summary 1st ARTICLE THAT FOLLOWS from Jan 2013, I took a few excerpts out of MHR article

 

In the eight one-and-done games in particular

 

As you now see, Manning has experienced just about everything in the playoffs, and it usually is something bad for his team. The combination of rare events is the reason for a 9-11.

 

The staggering number of drops (over 30 in the equivalent of half a season) and tipped-ball interceptions do QB numbers little justice. One loss was by 41 points (( early in carer to jjets )), and the other seven by 26 points combined.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If that is not bizarre enough, there is the fact that even when Manning and his entire offense avoids turnovers, he still loses at a most historic rate.

• In the regular season Manning's teams are 40-2 (.952) when they have zero giveaways on offense. That is the best record in the league since 1998.
•  
• In the playoffs Manning's Colts were 1-5 (.167) when they had zero giveaways on offense. The rest of the league is 50-5 (.909), and that even includes two games where neither team had a giveaway.

 

When your defense allows a fourth-quarter comeback 60 percent of the time (6-4), you have a real problem. It is one thing to let Drew Brees do it, but when it's Jay Fiedler, Billy Volek, Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco? That is completely unacceptable.

 

Manning's had a lead in the final 0:40 of the fourth quarter and lost four playoff games.

 

The only four times Manning's teams have held off comeback attempts, they led to three straight wins and a Super Bowl in 2006, and a Super Bowl appearance in 2009 after holding off the Jets.

 

http://www.milehighr...ysical-v-mental

 

THE 2 articles, each quite long with many stats, short Video key play , the above MHR REVIEW based on them , same site , done a year apart

----------------------------------------------------------------

2013 9 & 11 analyzed , has moving Pictures, short videos to help with points is makes

 

details each playoff loss of 1 & done

 

ends with

throw in the ridiculous bad luck Manning has suffered through, and only then does 9-11 start to make some sense.

 

So 9-11 is not an accident for Manning. It’s a misfortune of unbelievable events, and it’s a call for help in what is proven to be the ultimate team game.\

 

http://www.coldhardf...for-help/20868/

========================================

 ARTICLE 2 , same site 2012 ( 9 & 10 record ), also details each game presented a bit differently

 

What’s a lost comeback? It’s a game where the quarterback met all the requirements for a fourth quarter comeback, except the team still lost the game because they lost the lead again. Manning had lost comebacks against the 2007 Chargers and 2010 Jets, which may very well end up being his final game and drive for the Colts.

 

That was significant, because it is yet another “record” for Manning in the playoffs. Out of the 101 games won with a fourth quarter comeback, there were 34 of them where each team took the lead at least once in the final quarter. That means there are 34 lost comebacks in playoff history. It’s happened to a lot of the greatest quarterbacks once. But it’s only happened to one quarterback twice.

 

Peyton Manning is the only quarterback in NFL history with two lost comebacks in the playoffs.

 

That’s two wasted efforts the Colts had at home, and against one offense led by Billy Volek, and then after allowing that big return to Cromartie in the final minute against the Jets.

 

Lazy analysis

 

The 9-10 record is just the latest crutch for those who would rather not analyze what actually happened in the games. How will perception ever lose if reality is never even given a chance?

 

I didn’t spend 5,000 words talking about what should have happened for Manning’s Colts in the playoffs, what would have happened, and what could have happened if things went differently.

 

I talked about the facts of what did happen. I looked at what Manning did, along with what his teammates and the opponent did in those games. Now what’s stopping anyone else from doing the same?

 

It’s only when you put it all together that 9-10 makes sense. If you’re just looking at the quarterback, 9-10 shouldn’t even be on your mind. That’s just being lazy.

 

 http://network.yardb...ng_era/9955468 

 

 

Barry, Hope its clear, bit rushed

 

 

Edited December 26, 2013 by bayone
formatting

[Superman]

I agree with everything here except the bolded part. You can't really "overstate" that situation, IMO. 24-year-old, 6th round pick, 90 seconds, long field, on that stage, in that situation? He didn't throw an 80-yard TD but he sure got it done. Despite John Madden urging them to take a knee.  ;)

 

And the only thing Vanderjagt has in common with Vinatieri is the second initial of their names... he's like the anti-Vinatieiri. Hard to believe Adam's been kicking in Indy for, what, seven years now? Going on eight? That's nearly half his career! 

 

That's probably true. The situation coupled with Brady's performance on the final drive was storybook. I don't really mean the drive, I'm more talking about the game and the situation. The 20 points they scored (7 on defense) would have been insufficient against the Rams almost any other week that season, especially in the playoffs. Brady didn't have a good game, and the reason Madden was so emphatic about taking a knee there is because the offense had been mostly ineffective in the second half. 

 

If it's and buts were candy and nuts, of course. I'm only saying if you're going to be critical of Bledsoe coming in and finishing the Steelers game (which he deserves credit for), then we can be critical of Brady's overall performance in the Super Bowl. If the win nullifies his mostly mediocre performance, then the same should be true of Bledsoe in the AFCCG. But Bledsoe doesn't get the win on his record; Brady does. It's silly.

 

As for Vinatieri vs. Vanderjagt, you're absolutely right. But that's not considered when we talk about Brady having such a good start to his career, especially in the postseason (including the Snow Bowl against the Raiders). 

[GoPats]

That's probably true. The situation coupled with Brady's performance on the final drive was storybook. I don't really mean the drive, I'm more talking about the game and the situation. The 20 points they scored (7 on defense) would have been insufficient against the Rams almost any other week that season, especially in the playoffs. Brady didn't have a good game, and the reason Madden was so emphatic about taking a knee there is because the offense had been mostly ineffective in the second half. 

 

If it's and buts were candy and nuts, of course. I'm only saying if you're going to be critical of Bledsoe coming in and finishing the Steelers game (which he deserves credit for), then we can be critical of Brady's overall performance in the Super Bowl. If the win nullifies his mostly mediocre performance, then the same should be true of Bledsoe in the AFCCG. But Bledsoe doesn't get the win on his record; Brady does. It's silly.

 

As for Vinatieri vs. Vanderjagt, you're absolutely right. But that's not considered when we talk about Brady having such a good start to his career, especially in the postseason (including the Snow Bowl against the Raiders). 

 

This is what I like about you... always a valid point. I definitely agree here, and wasn't ripping on Drew at all in previous posts. He did a fine job in that Steelers game, and deserves credit for stepping into that situation. I remember, as the clock wound down, he got very emotional on the field. I really felt for him at that point. He was always a very likable guy, always good to the media, generous in his philanthropic efforts... I think even Bledsoe realizes now that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He came back for his induction in the Patriots HOF a couple of years ago and joked how his kids just wanted Tom Brady's autograph. Just an awesome guy, and he (along with Parcells) is the reason the Patriots became relevant again, stayed in NE, and built a new stadium. 

[bayone]

I agree with everything here except the bolded part. You can't really "overstate" that situation, IMO. 24-year-old, 6th round pick, 90 seconds, long field, on that stage, in that situation? He didn't throw an 80-yard TD but he sure got it done. Despite John Madden urging them to take a knee.  ;)

 

And the only thing Vanderjagt has in common with Vinatieri is the second initial of their names... he's like the anti-Vinatieiri. Hard to believe Adam's been kicking in Indy for, what, seven years now? Going on eight? That's nearly half his career! 

 

love that 

 

in general Superman &  u  goredsox  (( lol  -  feeling spirited for a change, hope i didnt insult u ))    

 

 both make some fine points and counter points  --

 

anyway , off to deliver ensure plus to MOIM  at 4 a day required now  I have to get it arranged to deliver right,

 

for the first time in 1.5 years assisted living ordered it so i wouldn't have to bring over BUT +++  assisted living  ordered  60 of  the wrong  flavor  even though all this time they gave her the correct one i have been bringing there ++++  & mom cant stand it, is it ever easy ??? 

 

 

And sometimes people overstate Brady's play on the last drive in the SB. (Also, more to the point, Brady gets a playoff win for the Steelers game, even though he didn't play most of the game. That's kind of what the other poster was saying, not that Drew Bledsoe turned in a performance for the ages.)

 

Like I said, all the credit in the world for Brady's performance on that final drive, but that defense held the Greatest Show on Turf to 17 points, indoors. The offense really didn't perform well, and there was a long stretch of mediocrity on Brady's part, up until that last drive. But Manning only threw one TD against the Bears, so that means he didn't have a good game...

 

Also, talking about makeable FGs, the Colts lost two playoff games due to missed FGs by Mike Vanderjagt, a 46 yarder against Pittsburgh, at home, and a 49 yarder at Miami, no weather. Those aren't brought up when people talk about how many one-and-dones Manning has.

 

The article points out how Manning has performed well even in losses (or at least well enough to win). That takes nothing away from Brady. Just shows how pointing out a QB's win-loss record is shallow analysis.

[Restored]

Bledsoe remains one of my favorite all-time Patriots, and he stepped in and held down the fort in that game, but it's one of those situations where the more time goes by, the more his play gets a little exaggerated. He played well enough, but it's not like he went out there and lit it up. If he had, the decision to start Brady once healthy in the SB would have been a little more controversial.

Drew went 10/21 that day, with 102 yards and one TD. But really the Patriots won that game on special teams. Troy Brown had a 55-yard punt return for a TD. The Patriots also blocked a FG and Brown picked it up, ran 11 yards with it, and then lateraled to Antwain Harris who ran it in from 45 yards out.

Also, another forgotten nugget from that game...

Vinatieri missed a 50-yarder in the 4th quarter just before the 2:00 warning that would have sealed it. Lawyer Milloy ended up interception Kordell Stewart on the ensuing possession.

Ugh, I like you Narc, but have to say I really, really hate this argument whenever someone brings it up.

I love AV but the SB-winning kicks were not miracles. (The Snow Bowl kicks, perhaps... best two kicks, most clutch, I've ever seen, but the same doesn't necessarily apply to the SB winners.)

In fact, AV missed one early in the game against Carolina and also had one blocked in that game. Both the Rams and Panthers kicks were very makeable, made indoors, etc. Not to discredit Vinatieri even in the slightest, but he wasn't booming 60-yarders to win those games.

And to state it that way ignores the fact that that the Patriots did not need 7 points to win any of their Super Bowls. If it's tied up and you have the last possession, why on earth would you get it into FG range and then take silly chances, just to win by 7 instead of 3?

As for the overall subject at hand...

There is a reason they keep track of quarterbacks' overall win-loss records from a historical standpoint. You don't hear it or see it happen with other players. You don't hear, "this offensive lineman went 140-67 as a starter during his NFL career." I said earlier, wins are a team accomplishment, but the responsibilities that come with the QB position mean that player probably has more influence over the outcome than any other.

Stats also are misleading. A quarterback gets the same rating on an 8-yard completion on 1st-and-10 in the first quarter of a game as he'd get for the same pass on a 4th-and-7 with the clock ticking down inside the 2:00 warning.

The common thread I see in playoff games that Brady and Manning have lost is that they may have not made critical errors or bad plays, but they also, at times, didn't pull off their usual miraculous performances. In some cases, that applies to wins as well.

Both of them have, though, made their share of critical mistakes... Brady's INT against the Colts in 2006, or the week prior when he threw the pick that Troy Brown stripped away from the San Diego defender. Manning's had the Tracey Porter INT and last season's pick.

Wins and losses are a team thing, but it's never really as simple as that, nor is it as simple as looking at the play of the QB. Each situation is different.

Whichever way you go, it doesn't really help the argument here. If you wanna say Bledsoe was average (he started 4-5 with a TD and didn't lose them the lead), then you gotta agree that it was the Patriots as a team that got them there and not so much the play of Brady. Bledsoe took care of business that game and started well. His stat line wasn't great but watching that game fully again, he played very solid football.

I agree with a lot of everything else you said though.

[MWilkerson950]

Is that correct? So much for the argument that Brady had much better defenses than Peyton.

 

Not at all. Throughout Brady's 3 Super Bowl runs (2001, 2003, and 2004), his defense let up 15 points per game in all three years combined. That is absolutely ridiculous. That's the defense dominance Manning had in '07 basically spread out to three different seasons. Those Patriot defenses also played teams like the '04 Eagles, '04 Colts, '01 Rams. A couple of the best offenses of all time.

 

As soon as Brady lost that defensive dominance and those clutch stops, which he desperately needed in his last two super bowls where he vastly under performed, he hasn't won a thing. Tom Brady also has 6 TDs and 7 interceptions for his career in AFC Championship games I believe, that needs justification. He gets away with more sloppy performances then Peyton does in the post season, and he always has. Aside from '06, if Peyton doesn't at least post a 90+ rating with an efficient performance his teams always lose.

[Dustin]

Not at all. Throughout Brady's 3 Super Bowl runs (2001, 2003, and 2004), his defense let up 15 points per game in all three years combined. That is absolutely ridiculous. That's the defense dominance Manning had in '07 basically spread out to three different seasons. Those Patriot defenses also played teams like the '04 Eagles, '04 Colts, '01 Rams. A couple of the best offenses of all time.

As soon as Brady lost that defensive dominance and those clutch stops, which he desperately needed in his last two super bowls where he vastly under performed, he hasn't won a thing. Tom Brady also has 6 TDs and 7 interceptions for his career in AFC Championship games I believe, that needs justification. He gets away with more sloppy performances then Peyton does in the post season, and he always has. Aside from '06, if Peyton doesn't at least post a 90+ rating with an efficient performance his teams always lose.

You. I like you.

[Superman]

Not at all. Throughout Brady's 3 Super Bowl runs (2001, 2003, and 2004), his defense let up 15 points per game in all three years combined. That is absolutely ridiculous. That's the defense dominance Manning had in '07 basically spread out to three different seasons. Those Patriot defenses also played teams like the '04 Eagles, '04 Colts, '01 Rams. A couple of the best offenses of all time.

 

As soon as Brady lost that defensive dominance and those clutch stops, which he desperately needed in his last two super bowls where he vastly under performed, he hasn't won a thing. Tom Brady also has 6 TDs and 7 interceptions for his career in AFC Championship games I believe, that needs justification. He gets away with more sloppy performances then Peyton does in the post season, and he always has. Aside from '06, if Peyton doesn't at least post a 90+ rating with an efficient performance his teams always lose.

 

To the bolded, I'm not sure what you could possibly mean. Brady was outstanding against the Panthers and the Eagles in the Super Bowl. Particularly against the Panthers, when both teams had defensive letdowns in the 4th quarter. Both teams combined for 37 points in the 4th, and the Pats defense gave up a game-tying TD in 90 seconds, with only 1:13 left on the clock.

 

The rest of your post is sound.

[Dustin]

To the bolded, I'm not sure what you could possibly mean. Brady was outstanding against the Panthers and the Eagles in the Super Bowl. Particularly against the Panthers, when both teams had defensive letdowns in the 4th quarter. Both teams combined for 37 points in the 4th, and the Pats defense gave up a game-tying TD in 90 seconds, with only 1:13 left on the clock.

The rest of your post is sound.

Giants games.

[Superman]

Giants games.

 

Ah. See, l've been brainwashed by the media. Those games aren't to be discussed...

 

Carry on.

[amfootball]

Not at all. Throughout Brady's 3 Super Bowl runs (2001, 2003, and 2004), his defense let up 15 points per game in all three years combined. That is absolutely ridiculous. That's the defense dominance Manning had in '07 basically spread out to three different seasons. Those Patriot defenses also played teams like the '04 Eagles, '04 Colts, '01 Rams. A couple of the best offenses of all time.

 

As soon as Brady lost that defensive dominance and those clutch stops, which he desperately needed in his last two super bowls where he vastly under performed, he hasn't won a thing. Tom Brady also has 6 TDs and 7 interceptions for his career in AFC Championship games I believe, that needs justification. He gets away with more sloppy performances then Peyton does in the post season, and he always has. Aside from '06, if Peyton doesn't at least post a 90+ rating with an efficient performance his teams always lose.

Ah, back to the defense carrying Brady. It wasn't Brady's 11 Tds to 3 picks during those champ seasons or his average 91 passer rating over those nine games either that brought the Pats those SB wins. Or his 4 fourth quarter comeback/Game winning drives including two in the SBs?

 

And let me ask you who were Manning's offensive skill guys those years vs Brady? And didn't Manning throw for 49 Tds in 2004 as well get the MVP but just 3 points?

[Superman]

Ah, back to the defense carrying Brady. It wasn't Brady's 11 Tds to 3 picks during those champ seasons or his average 91 passer rating over those nine games either that brought the Pats those SB wins. Or his 4 fourth quarter comeback/Game winning drives including two in the SBs?

 

And let me ask you who were Manning's offensive skill guys those years vs Brady? And didn't Manning throw for 49 Tds in 2004 as well get the MVP but just 3 points?

 

Did you just say in another thread that defense wins in the playoffs?

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/24657-16-denver-broncos-players-about-to-become-free-agents-other-like-von-miller-due-to-the-new-rookie-wage-scale-will-become-eligible-for-new-deals/?p=688043

[amfootball]

Did you just say in another thread that defense wins in the playoffs?

 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/24657-16-denver-broncos-players-about-to-become-free-agents-other-like-von-miller-due-to-the-new-rookie-wage-scale-will-become-eligible-for-new-deals/?p=688043

I said I would rather have the stout D then the high flying O. It takes a team to win but QB play trumps all.

[Superman]

I said I would rather have the stout D then the high flying O. It takes a team to win but QB play trumps all.

 

Cut and paste from here: http://forums.colts.com/topic/24657-16-denver-broncos-players-about-to-become-free-agents-other-like-von-miller-due-to-the-new-rookie-wage-scale-will-become-eligible-for-new-deals/?p=688043

 

But defense is what wins in the playoffs.

 

You're the only "amfootball" here.

 

It's incredibly laughable that you'd try to downplay the impact the Pats defense had during those Super Bowl runs.

[amfootball]

Cut and paste from here: http://forums.colts.com/topic/24657-16-denver-broncos-players-about-to-become-free-agents-other-like-von-miller-due-to-the-new-rookie-wage-scale-will-become-eligible-for-new-deals/?p=688043

 

 

You're the only "amfootball" here.

 

It's incredibly laughable that you'd try to downplay the impact the Pats defense had during those Super Bowl runs.

It is even more laughable when posters try to make it seem like Brady was along for the ride. Didn't you just post about his performance in the Carolina SB? Not to mention the AFC champ game vs Pitt in 2005 and the 300 yards in one half in the snow against the Raiders. He did his share too and without his part no rings either. That can't be denied.

[Superman]

It is even more laughable when posters try to make it seem like Brady was along for the ride. Didn't you just post about his performance in the Carolina SB? Not to mention the AFC champ game vs Pitt in 2005 and the 300 yards in one half in the snow against the Raiders. He did his share too and without his part no rings either. That can't be denied.

 

It can't be denied. Brady did his job, no question about it.

 

But you're throwing the bus in reverse pretty drastically in here, and it's incredible. In one thread, you talk about how defense wins championships. Then you come back over here where someone is talking about how big the Pats defense was -- and it was undoubtedly HUGE -- and want to talk about how Brady's performance "brought the Pats those SB wins." 

[amfootball]

It can't be denied. Brady did his job, no question about it.

 

But you're throwing the bus in reverse pretty drastically in here, and it's incredible. In one thread, you talk about how defense wins championships. Then you come back over here where someone is talking about how big the Pats defense was -- and it was undoubtedly HUGE -- and want to talk about how Brady's performance "brought the Pats those SB wins." 

Not throwing anything in reverse. We all know how good that Pats defense was but Brady's numbers also speak for themselves in those championship years and his clutch play. That is what I was emphasizing to the poster that was making it seem like Brady was along for the ride. He went to the pro bowl 2 of those 3 years so he was doing more than just his part to get the team in position to where it could compete for the trophy every year and ultimately win it.

[Surge89]

Not throwing anything in reverse. We all know how good that Pats defense was but Brady's numbers also speak for themselves in those championship years and his clutch play. That is what I was emphasizing to the poster that was making it seem like Brady was along for the ride. He went to the pro bowl 2 of those 3 years so he was doing more than just his part to get the team in position to where it could compete for the trophy every year and ultimately win it.

 

So for the sake of talking some football :-) (and I'm a huge Manning fan) I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents!

 

So First let me explain what I think the underlying issue is.  PERCEPTION.  For some unknown reason Brady is the "Golden boy poster child" of winning in the modern era of the NFL and Manning is the "Great but crap in the clutch player" in the NFL today.  Why is this an issue?  CIRCUMSTANCE.  Aside from the countless ramblings in this thread for each QB, both have accomplished what no other QB has ever done in the NFL.  Win and WIN ALOT in the Salary Cap era.  The Salary cap has been designed for teams to NOT dominate and both QBs have personally succeeded in destroying the design.  This in itself is one thing I'm grateful to watch.

 

So now that we have what I believe to be the issue let me then tell you my take.  The comparison is completely flawed and skewed to begin with.  Manning NEVER has had the coaching that Brady has had.  In fact, it is quite easy to argue that Manning has had the worst coaching/team/organizational philosophies than any other elite QB in the history of the game.  He is a Number producing monster that if he had someone like Sean Payton at the helm he most likely has multiple superbowls. If he had BB? 5 in a row wouldn't be surprising lol.  Anyways, also Manning has NEVER had a team salary cap like Brady... This is so painfully obvious and huge that it must be repeated.   MANNING HAS NEVER HAD A TEAM SALARY CAP LIKE BRADY.  The importance of this is just outstanding.  Manning came into the league making ridiculous amounts of money because for some reason teams liked to throw millions and millions at unproven rookies.  Brady came in for chump change. This coupled with one of the greatest coaches of his era leads to a DEEP roster.  So now lets analyze something real quick.  When Brady gets his big contract... how many superbowls has he won again?  Its hard... really really really hard to make it to the superbowl with the usual hits of the salary cap.  That is why it exists because it forces balance to the NFL.  The fact that the Pats have made it to 2 superbowls on Brady's contract (same as Manning by the way) is a huge testament to the talent of Brady, coaching of BB and Patriots Organization. 

 

So to actually make it seem like I have a point instead of pointlessly rambling...  This is my problem with the comparisons between the 2.  Manning has been asked A WHOLE bunch more than Brady, but that isn't Brady's fault in fact it is more of the fault of Manning's own success, which will always lean to an unfair nod in the wins column in Brady's favor.  

 

For example: (will hopefully end this rant soon lol)

You can take year 2013 as a microcosm of the careers of Manning and Brady.  Brady has injury to his WR's after injury.  BB steps in and the defense just freaking dominates(also helps that Brady worked his butt off getting those receivers up to speed cause man it was frustrating to watch Brady have to double pump because he had no idea what his WR was trying to do).  Manning HAS to score 30+ or his team loses. (with exception to them COLTS!) Again you see it play over and over Brady benefits from having BB and Manning has a coach that can't figure out how to manage a game and a D who can't stop Romo and the Cowboys...  

 

So to end it all lets just accept that they are both Great QB's and I firmly believe the Greatest 2 that have ever played, and see that despite what the media illustrates one circumstance is much more favorable than the other.

[John Dee]

The same kicker that kicked "5" FG's @ Baltimore in 06.     Oh, and the QB tossed 2 INT's that game......    with how many TD's?

 

OK......

 

Colt D deserves credit for that SB run NOT the ...    Super Bowl MVP?   Which should have been Addai and Rhodesl

And Brady only has his wins through the leg of a kicker. 

[Shane Bond]

I said I would rather have the stout D then the high flying O. It takes a team to win but QB play trumps all.

 

I do see the QB play since 2004 without much camera help and defense.

[Shane Bond]

So for the sake of talking some football :-) (and I'm a huge Manning fan) I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents!

 

So First let me explain what I think the underlying issue is.  PERCEPTION.  For some unknown reason Brady is the "Golden boy poster child" of winning in the modern era of the NFL and Manning is the "Great but crap in the clutch player" in the NFL today.  Why is this an issue?  CIRCUMSTANCE.  Aside from the countless ramblings in this thread for each QB, both have accomplished what no other QB has ever done in the NFL.  Win and WIN ALOT in the Salary Cap era.  The Salary cap has been designed for teams to NOT dominate and both QBs have personally succeeded in destroying the design.  This in itself is one thing I'm grateful to watch.

 

So now that we have what I believe to be the issue let me then tell you my take.  The comparison is completely flawed and skewed to begin with.  Manning NEVER has had the coaching that Brady has had.  In fact, it is quite easy to argue that Manning has had the worst coaching/team/organizational philosophies than any other elite QB in the history of the game.  He is a Number producing monster that if he had someone like Sean Payton at the helm he most likely has multiple superbowls. If he had BB? 5 in a row wouldn't be surprising lol.  Anyways, also Manning has NEVER had a team salary cap like Brady... This is so painfully obvious and huge that it must be repeated.   MANNING HAS NEVER HAD A TEAM SALARY CAP LIKE BRADY.  The importance of this is just outstanding.  Manning came into the league making ridiculous amounts of money because for some reason teams liked to throw millions and millions at unproven rookies.  Brady came in for chump change. This coupled with one of the greatest coaches of his era leads to a DEEP roster.  So now lets analyze something real quick.  When Brady gets his big contract... how many superbowls has he won again?  Its hard... really really really hard to make it to the superbowl with the usual hits of the salary cap.  That is why it exists because it forces balance to the NFL.  The fact that the Pats have made it to 2 superbowls on Brady's contract (same as Manning by the way) is a huge testament to the talent of Brady, coaching of BB and Patriots Organization. 

 

So to actually make it seem like I have a point instead of pointlessly rambling...  This is my problem with the comparisons between the 2.  Manning has been asked A WHOLE bunch more than Brady, but that isn't Brady's fault in fact it is more of the fault of Manning's own success, which will always lean to an unfair nod in the wins column in Brady's favor.  

 

For example: (will hopefully end this rant soon lol)

You can take year 2013 as a microcosm of the careers of Manning and Brady.  Brady has injury to his WR's after injury.  BB steps in and the defense just freaking dominates(also helps that Brady worked his butt off getting those receivers up to speed cause man it was frustrating to watch Brady have to double pump because he had no idea what his WR was trying to do).  Manning HAS to score 30+ or his team loses. (with exception to them COLTS!) Again you see it play over and over Brady benefits from having BB and Manning has a coach that can't figure out how to manage a game and a D who can't stop Romo and the Cowboys...  

 

So to end it all lets just accept that they are both Great QB's and I firmly believe the Greatest 2 that have ever played, and see that despite what the media illustrates one circumstance is much more favorable than the other.

 

Well said.

 

Also, Manning was No 1 overall pick which means he is going into a crappy team. Brady was drafted in 6th round and his team was pretty good when he got there. Huge difference.

[Narcosys]

The same kicker that kicked "5" FG's @ Baltimore in 06.     Oh, and the QB tossed 2 INT's that game......    with how many TD's?

 

OK......

 

Colt D deserves credit for that SB run NOT the ...    Super Bowl MVP?   Which should have been Addai and Rhodesl

Rhodes maybe.  In the Superbowl manning 1 TD, 1 INT, and 247 yards.  and won by 12 points....not 3 or less. 

 

In SB 36...Brady had only 145 yards and 1 TD...but he got the MVP

Bring up previous games before the SB's?  ok.

In Div game against colts he only had 144 yards and 1 td.

In a Div game against the titans he only had 201 yards and 1 td

[Guest vanqos]

I'm a Pats fan, but if I met Peyton Manning, I'd shake his hand and say "It's been a pleasure watching you play."  Do I hate the way the media and his fans tonguebathe him and make excuses when he makes a bad play or has a bad game?  Sure.  But that doesn't take away at all from him being an all-time great QB and really isn't his fault.  From what I've seen of him, he's a good person, just like Brady and just like a lot of athletes.  In fact, Brady and Manning are friends and both texted each other during their respective injuries and have said they text each other about upcoming opponents and compare notes.

 

What I find most ridiculous is the extent of the crush Manning's fans have on him: Throwing players on their team under the bus so Manning doesn't get the blame, discrediting Brady by trying to use Spygate and "system quarterback" references or overplay the importance of his coaches and teammates to make his accomplishments seem unimportant, and in some cases, becoming Broncos fans, or part Colts/part Broncos fans.

 

I'm as big of a Paul Pierce as a lot of people here are Manning fans, and I didn't become a Brooklyn Nets fan.  I also never defended him when he was less than perfect.

 

The bottom line is, there is no answer to the who's better question.  Pats fans will say Brady.  Colts and bandwagon Broncos fans will say Manning, fans of other teams will say one or the other, but they're both on the same level and both have different strengths.  Brady has a stronger arm, throws a better spiral, is more calm in pressure situations, and can handle the elements better.  Manning makes throws that leave me shaking my head thinking "Wow how did he fit that in there?"  He's like the Greg Maddux of quarterbacks: using his smarts and pin-point accuracy to remain effective.

 

It's really pathetic when you see Colts fans who have an up and coming quarterback make post after post making excuses for Manning's shortcomings and belittling Brady because they're insecure that there's another quarterback in Peyton's league.  Both him and Brady are humans, they aren't perfect on or off the field, and both have made bad plays and had bad games.

 

The reason non-Peyton fanatics make fun of his play in big games and postseason play is because he's so good normally that it's weird that he can't put it together when it matters most.  Even despite his shaky postseason, he still has a ring and no one can take that away from him, and Pats fans would be lying if they said they didn't think he was capable of snapping out of it and winning some of these big games again.

 

As for Brady and the Pats: Those 01-04 teams were special.  They were perfectly balanced and were the ultimate "team."  To say, though, that Brady was along for the ride is ridiculous and just bitterness.  He didn't put up the regular season stats he has since 2007, but he made the plays when they mattered most and had one of the best SB games ever by a QB against the Panthers when he threw for 32 completions (tied for a SB record), 350 yards, and 3 TDs.  The defense gave up 29 points and the game in the second half was essentially a shoot-out.  And even though the Pats haven't won a super bowl in a while, he's had many good games in the playoffs, the Jaguars game in 2007 and the Broncos, 6 TD game, in 2011 come to mind.

 

As for who's better, the answer is, neither.  When the average fan remembers this time period of football, they'll remember both.  It doesn't take away from anything Manning's accomplished to admit Brady is just as great.

 

I really don't understand the excessive crush his fans have on him.  This is just football, not life.  In the offseason, Peyton spends time with his family like everyone else.  Worshipping him like a deity is a little weird.  But denying that he's great and on Brady's level is just as bad.  The fact is, if the media didn't do what Colts fans do in threads like this, I bet Pats fans wouldn't resent him as much.  You just live with it and see him for what he is: an all-time great QB.  Ignore the Jim Nantz's of the world and just realize that like Brady, you're watching one of the all-time best.

[amfootball]

So for the sake of talking some football :-) (and I'm a huge Manning fan) I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents!

 

So First let me explain what I think the underlying issue is.  PERCEPTION.  For some unknown reason Brady is the "Golden boy poster child" of winning in the modern era of the NFL and Manning is the "Great but crap in the clutch player" in the NFL today.  Why is this an issue?  CIRCUMSTANCE.  Aside from the countless ramblings in this thread for each QB, both have accomplished what no other QB has ever done in the NFL.  Win and WIN ALOT in the Salary Cap era.  The Salary cap has been designed for teams to NOT dominate and both QBs have personally succeeded in destroying the design.  This in itself is one thing I'm grateful to watch.

 

So now that we have what I believe to be the issue let me then tell you my take.  The comparison is completely flawed and skewed to begin with.  Manning NEVER has had the coaching that Brady has had.  In fact, it is quite easy to argue that Manning has had the worst coaching/team/organizational philosophies than any other elite QB in the history of the game.  He is a Number producing monster that if he had someone like Sean Payton at the helm he most likely has multiple superbowls. If he had BB? 5 in a row wouldn't be surprising lol.  Anyways, also Manning has NEVER had a team salary cap like Brady... This is so painfully obvious and huge that it must be repeated.   MANNING HAS NEVER HAD A TEAM SALARY CAP LIKE BRADY.  The importance of this is just outstanding.  Manning came into the league making ridiculous amounts of money because for some reason teams liked to throw millions and millions at unproven rookies.  Brady came in for chump change. This coupled with one of the greatest coaches of his era leads to a DEEP roster.  So now lets analyze something real quick.  When Brady gets his big contract... how many superbowls has he won again?  Its hard... really really really hard to make it to the superbowl with the usual hits of the salary cap.  That is why it exists because it forces balance to the NFL.  The fact that the Pats have made it to 2 superbowls on Brady's contract (same as Manning by the way) is a huge testament to the talent of Brady, coaching of BB and Patriots Organization. 

 

So to actually make it seem like I have a point instead of pointlessly rambling...  This is my problem with the comparisons between the 2.  Manning has been asked A WHOLE bunch more than Brady, but that isn't Brady's fault in fact it is more of the fault of Manning's own success, which will always lean to an unfair nod in the wins column in Brady's favor.  

 

For example: (will hopefully end this rant soon lol)

You can take year 2013 as a microcosm of the careers of Manning and Brady.  Brady has injury to his WR's after injury.  BB steps in and the defense just freaking dominates(also helps that Brady worked his butt off getting those receivers up to speed cause man it was frustrating to watch Brady have to double pump because he had no idea what his WR was trying to do).  Manning HAS to score 30+ or his team loses. (with exception to them COLTS!) Again you see it play over and over Brady benefits from having BB and Manning has a coach that can't figure out how to manage a game and a D who can't stop Romo and the Cowboys...  

 

So to end it all lets just accept that they are both Great QB's and I firmly believe the Greatest 2 that have ever played, and see that despite what the media illustrates one circumstance is much more favorable than the other.

I appreciate you taking the time to put that all down and to keep it to football but honestly your take on Brady is very skewed. The guy was a sixth round pick and the fourth QB on the Pats roster and most thought would be cut in 2000. Not only did he not get cut he rose two spots to be Bledsoe's back up which is significant because the Pats had signed Damon Huard to a one million dollar after his success backing up Marino in Miami. And then we find out years later from Bill that Brady was actually challenging Bledsoe for the starting spot and would have supplanted him even if Drew did not get injured in the 2001 season.

 

You seem to want to lay an awful lot at Bill's feet for the success of Brady and the Pats. And he has no doubt been instrumental in their success and longevity but he was on the hot seat in 2001. He came to NE with a sub par .500 record in Cleveland and one playoff appearance and one win. His first season in NE was a disaster. He went 5-11 in 2000. Then 2001 began with two losses to the horrible Bengals and Jets. Brady steps in and the team goes 14-3 right to the Super Bowl and Bill becomes the genius. For sure Bill did his share but honestly the weapons Brady was working with on the offensive side were average to below average - probably the worst set of skill guys combined with a sixth round pick at QB to ever win the bowl. Brown was the only legit receiver and Terry Glenn who most forget did not play that season when Brady came on because of a dispute with the team over his contract. So Brady didn't even have him. And the defense was the classic bend don't break which certainly stepped up in the post-season but was not great in the regular season which is why Brady had the comebacks.

 

In terms of Manning. I am not sure I get your point with the cap. Manning did have his big contracts but he was also surrounded with HoF talent on the offensive side and some pretty stout defensive players in Freeney, Mathas and Sanders among others. Those Colts teams were plenty good enough to win more championships but often got outperformed in the playoffs. I do think Manning gets more blame then he deserves for all the losses but like I had said in a previous post when you come in as the first pick with the football pedigree you are expected to carry the team to the championships especially when you have the talent Manning had year after year. And it is for this reason that I think if both Luck and Wilson win rings in the next few years, maybe even this year for Wilson, then Luck will have done what he was supposed to do and Wilson will get more accolades for coming out of nowhere to win a ring. That is just the way it works. It is unfair on one hand but human nature on the other.

 

In terms of your last point, not sure if you realize that Brady is top 5 in most QB categories this season. That is stunning. He did began slow given all the new guys but for him to have turned it around and be among the best Qbs THIS season is monstrous and can't be emphasized enough. The Pats defense was good the first few games but then it got injured and it has been Brady and the O carrying it since then with 5 fourth quarter/game winning drives.

 

In terms of Manning, he has had a historic season. His team is volumes better then Brady's right now. It is not even close. We will see how it all pans out but suffice to say both QBs will have to play well for their teams to have a chance. And really that has always been the case in the post-season.

[Guest vanqos]

I still don't understand why Peyton didn't opt for the 49ers.  Championship level nasty defense, warm weather.  If it's because he would be in the same conference as Eli or because he wouldn't have full control of the offense, that's just sad.  I'd like to believe that wasn't the case, though, and that him and Elway formed a rapport and Elway gave him the "I won a couple SBs the last two years of my career in Denver" speech.  49ers would have made a lot more sense and he likely would have won a ring last year.  He probably isn't winning it all this year, and it's not his fault, it's because high-powered offenses get shut down in the playoffs, they have a sub-par defense and the whole team is known for making untimely blunders.

[GoPats]

Whichever way you go, it doesn't really help the argument here. If you wanna say Bledsoe was average (he started 4-5 with a TD and didn't lose them the lead), then you gotta agree that it was the Patriots as a team that got them there and not so much the play of Brady. Bledsoe took care of business that game and started well. His stat line wasn't great but watching that game fully again, he played very solid football.

I agree with a lot of everything else you said though.

 

Oh absolutely. I assume you read all the follow-up posts too... I don't think Bledsoe could have done much better in that situation. And let's face it, he was a talented guy. 

 

The three Super Bowls were really all team efforts. In some games the offense carried the load, but that team's identity was its defense. Saying anything else would be revisionist history for fans who are blindly Brady boosters. They were also solid on special teams, but they almost always have been under Belichick. Back then, Brady was probably more like an Alex Smith or a Russell Wilson without the running ability. It wasn't the volume of plays he made, it was more situation-based. When he needed to come up with a play, he usually did. I do think he was the catalyst, the guy on the team who everyone sort of believed in and bought into... Bledsoe had a tendency to make his worst mistakes at the worst possible times, but Brady was the opposite and just seemed like one of those players who always got the bounce, always got the play, and who obviously gave you the best chance to win. 

 

I would actually argue that, in the two Super Bowl losses, those teams were much more "carried" by Brady, and it showed in the results (as you guys know, no matter how good your QB is, he can't always hide other faults on the team). In a lot of ways, from the last SB win in 2004 through to today, Brady and Manning have become very similar in that their margin for error is practically non-existent. It's not even a margin of error really, more like a margin of "above average." If they don't play great, their teams usually do not win.

 

And in winning Super Bowls, they also can both say their defenses stepped up... the Colts weren't going anywhere in the 2006 postseason if their D didn't play the way it did. Aside from the second half of the AFCCG, Indy couldn't get much going offensively. Defense, special teams, making big plays on offense at big moments... that's the championship formula. 

[Guest vanqos]

I don't know why Pats fans try to defend Brady on here as if they're going to change Colts fans minds.  Colts fans and media Manning defenders are a lot like mothers with their young children.  It's not enough that their children succeed, but that they're the absolute best, any competition fails, and their children do no wrong.  It's kind of frightening to think about given that Peyton Manning is an athlete/entertainer and more importantly a human being that isn't a family member or friend of theirs.  It makes you wonder if the Peter King's and Jim Nantz's of the world have life size fathead posters of him on their walls and have the number 18 sewn on their boxer shorts.

 

This isn't really Peyton's fault btw.  It's the behavior of his fanbase and I've never seen anything like it with any other athlete in the history of sports.

 

Personally, it doesn't make Brady any less great to admit that Manning's also on his level.  I don't need to get into arguments of semantics to validate Brady's career.  For Colt fans, bandwagon Bronco fans, and a lot of the media, they are very insecure and resent that there's another all-time great QB playing.  They also hate any criticism, fair, unfair, or overblown, that their quarterback gets, despite the fact that he gets a lot more praise than finger-pointing.

[GoPats]

Brady was drafted in 6th round and his team was pretty good when he got there.

 

 

They were 5-11 in 2000, had gone 8-8 and 9-7 in the two years before that, and 0-2 in the season he took over. Indy was 3-13 in 2007 but went 9-7 both seasons prior, and were one year removed from consecutive playoff berths.

 

Pretty similar from a W/L standpoint, actually. 

[GoPats]

I don't know why Pats fans try to defend Brady on here as if they're going to change Colts fans minds.

 

You know I ask myself that same question all the time, lol...

 

There are good posters here who can engage in productive back-and-forth discussions without trolling. Others, not so much. You're absolutely right of course, this is like listening to people talk politics. No one ever says, "Gee, you're right... I'm going to abandon my political party and change my ways!" But in the spirit of good debate and healthy conflict, we press on here, ! 

[MWilkerson950]

Ah, back to the defense carrying Brady. It wasn't Brady's 11 Tds to 3 picks during those champ seasons or his average 91 passer rating over those nine games either that brought the Pats those SB wins. Or his 4 fourth quarter comeback/Game winning drives including two in the SBs?

 

And let me ask you who were Manning's offensive skill guys those years vs Brady? And didn't Manning throw for 49 Tds in 2004 as well get the MVP but just 3 points?

 

Like I said, Brady can get away with 1 TD performances, or multiple turnover performances in the playoffs. Aside from '06, that isn't even close to the case with Manning. 

[MWilkerson950]

You know I ask myself that same question all the time, lol...

 

There are good posters here who can engage in productive back-and-forth discussions without trolling. Others, not so much. You're absolutely right of course, this is like listening to people talk politics. No one ever says, "Gee, you're right... I'm going to abandon my political party and change my ways!" But in the spirit of good debate and healthy conflict, we press on here, ! 

 

Are you a member of patsfans.com? I got banned there for pointing out their infatuation with Manning. The way they've down played the TD record this year is hilarious. Post throttled with reasons on why everything Brady does is more spectacular/against all odds/impressive. It's actually sad, and I can confidently say after visiting many message boards, Patsfans.com is easily the worst on the web. No comparison. Only board I've gotten banned from, ever, and I wasn't even being rude but offering non-biased insight.

[MAC]

I don't know why Pats fans try to defend Brady on here as if they're going to change Colts fans minds.  Colts fans and media Manning defenders are a lot like mothers with their young children.  It's not enough that their children succeed, but that they're the absolute best, any competition fails, and their children do no wrong.  It's kind of frightening to think about given that Peyton Manning is an athlete/entertainer and more importantly a human being that isn't a family member or friend of theirs.  It makes you wonder if the Peter King's and Jim Nantz's of the world have life size fathead posters of him on their walls and have the number 18 sewn on their boxer shorts.

 

This isn't really Peyton's fault btw.  It's the behavior of his fanbase and I've never seen anything like it with any other athlete in the history of sports.

 

Personally, it doesn't make Brady any less great to admit that Manning's also on his level.  I don't need to get into arguments of semantics to validate Brady's career.  For Colt fans, bandwagon Bronco fans, and a lot of the media, they are very insecure and resent that there's another all-time great QB playing.  They also hate any criticism, fair, unfair, or overblown, that their quarterback gets, despite the fact that he gets a lot more praise than finger-pointing.

My goodness. Did you intend to make your post so ironic (or arrogant, or condescending, or disingenuous, or inaccurate)? It seems like every defect that you rudely ascribe to us is actually seeping from your pores onto the keyboard. Perhaps it's not intentional. Maybe you were inadvertently blinded by your "Tom Brady signature eyebrow extenders".

 

I'm not going to debate the QBs with you, just point out that ALL fan bases avidly defend their players with the vehemence of a political or religious debate. There are never any winners, and the entire exercise is pointless. The fact remains, however, that this is a Colts board. If you "don't know why Pats fans try to defend Brady on here", then pray tell why are you doing exactly that?

 

I would imagine that Brady is defended just as vociferously on Pats boards, but I can't know that for sure because I've never visited one in my life. What would be the point, and why are you here - unless you are every bit as insecure and resentful as you imagine Peyton's fans to be - unable to resist coming here to seek approval and validation for your treasured hero, and so intolerant of the criticism that you had to sign up and respond. Do you imagine that you've taken the high-road? You missed your exit by several thousand miles.

[Shane Bond]

Are you a member of patsfans.com? I got banned there for pointing out their infatuation with Manning. The way they've down played the TD record this year is hilarious. Post throttled with reasons on why everything Brady does is more spectacular/against all odds/impressive. It's actually sad, and I can confidently say after visiting many message boards, Patsfans.com is easily the worst on the web. No comparison. Only board I've gotten banned from, ever, and I wasn't even being rude but offering non-biased insight.

 

Wasting your time going to anything like that in NE. They don't deserve your time.

 

I only make money from them for a living. Too easy.

[braveheartcolt]

Gosh, this is a new debate. My slant on this; anyone think Brady was a much better QB in his first three years than he has been in his last six?

Let's assume no one will say yes.

Which makes me think the importance put on PO success is not really as much a QB driven factor as is made out.

In summary, as Tom was learning his craft on his way to greatness (said sincerely) he won three SB's with his team. Since he has become one of the greatest QB's in the game, he's not won one.

This game really does hinge on fine margines, and all this ballyhoo is pretty tedious.

[Jules]

I can't wait until both get eliminated in the postseason to end the noise.

 

Preferably by the Colts.

[Shane Bond]

I can't wait until both get eliminated in the postseason to end the noise.

 

Preferably by the Colts.

 

Very similar to the USA olympics dream team practise in 1992. All the HOFs ( 11 of them in the same team ) were practising and at that time it was all Larry and Magic. MJ beat both of them and after end of practise said, there is a new sheriff in town.