By a Pats Fan - Advanced NFL Stats: The Myth of Playoff Peyton ,he's one of the best playoff QBs of this generation.

[TAPLOOK]

Anyone that thinks Manning is a good PO QB needs to stop watching the NFL.

[jvan1973]

Anyone that thinks Manning is a good PO QB needs to stop watching the NFL.

check career PO passer rating

[amfootball]

You're not getting my question. Who is to say the research was centered around Peyton?

You're assuming the initial research was made to eradicate Peyton of something. Could it have been a fan was just curious to see how each quarterback has performed and these were the results?

What if the title was made "The Current Quarterbacks and Their Playoff Performance."

Did you read the article? The author said the research was done precisely to try to explain Manning's poor playoff record.

[TAPLOOK]

check career PO passer rating

Check career PO W/L record and record number (by a long shot)of one and dones. This year is a perfect example. Brady is winning with very pedestrian numbers. Manning lost his two biggest games of the year. NE and Indy. We've been watching this movie for 15 years.

[amfootball]

Its not a double standard if one person says one way and another person says another.  Double standard is one person having contradictory views that benefit themselves.  Kinda like hypocrisy.  You yourself seem to have a double standard.  You say you dont give credit or all the praise for all of mannings losses and wins.  I know for sure that you dont give credit for losses to Brady, and from some of your previous posts on this topic you definitely seem to give all the credit to Brady on all his wins, especially when talking about superbowls.  We just had this discussion in another topic where i kept pointing out team aspects of your argument compared to individual aspects.  You kept giving brady all the credit towards his individual stats that are clearly team aspects.  But now you dont give credit to manning for the same thing...That my friend, is a double standard.

I tell you what I am willing to give all the credit to Brady and Manning for their wins and all the blame for their losses and also all the credit for their stats even though those are a team achievement as well as pointed out by Manning is his post game conference last Sunday after he broke the TD record. As Yehoodi would say, just be consistent all the way around. Whatever you apply to one be sure to apply to the other. Deal?

[jvan1973]

Check career PO W/L record and record number (by a long shot)of one and dones. This year is a perfect example. Brady is winning with very pedestrian numbers. Manning lost his two biggest games of the year. NE and Indy. We've been watching this movie for 15 years.

his biggest games were the divisional games.

Also, wins are a team accomplishment. You said it yourself. Brady is putting up sub par numbers, yet the pats are still winning

[schwamm]

He just got the Td record and now we need to start justifying his post-season too? The insecurities being to creep in again ....

Uhmm... You mean from you, right?

[amfootball]

Uhmm... You mean from you, right?

Huh? Brady's playoff record needs no justification. He has the most wins all time and a chance to add it to it this year ...

[Dustin]

ITT: Salty Patriots fans. 

[Shane Bond]

ITT: Salty Patriots fans. 

LOL, they are here all day talking and whining about Manning in a Colts forum. Even Manning left .

 

He must have done a serious damage to their psyche for them to still blabber everyday here.

 

Go to Broncos forum and do the whining.

[schwamm]

Huh? Brady's playoff record needs no justification. He has the most wins all time and a chance to add it to it this year ...

And yet, instead of reading the article, you jump right into justifying. Go figure.

[amfootball]

And yet, instead of reading the article, you jump right into justifying. Go figure.

lol. I commented on the topic of the thread ....

[GoPats]

Lets not forget that Drew Bledsoe came in gains the Steelers in that AFC Championship game and lead a TD drive that propelled them to the SB when Brady got hurt in the game.

 

 

Bledsoe remains one of my favorite all-time Patriots, and he stepped in and held down the fort in that game, but it's one of those situations where the more time goes by, the more his play gets a little exaggerated. He played well enough, but it's not like he went out there and lit it up. If he had, the decision to start Brady once healthy in the SB would have been a little more controversial. 

 

Drew went 10/21 that day, with 102 yards and one TD. But really the Patriots won that game on special teams. Troy Brown had a 55-yard punt return for a TD. The Patriots also blocked a FG and Brown picked it up, ran 11 yards with it, and then lateraled to Antwain Harris who ran it in from 45 yards out.

 

Also, another forgotten nugget from that game...

 

Vinatieri missed a 50-yarder in the 4th quarter just before the 2:00 warning that would have sealed it. Lawyer Milloy ended up interception Kordell Stewart on the ensuing possession.

 

 

And Brady only has his wins through the leg of a kicker. 

 

Ugh, I like you Narc, but have to say I really, really hate this argument whenever someone brings it up. 

 

I love AV but the SB-winning kicks were not miracles. (The Snow Bowl kicks, perhaps... best two kicks, most clutch, I've ever seen, but the same doesn't necessarily apply to the SB winners.)

 

In fact, AV missed one early in the game against Carolina and also had one blocked in that game. Both the Rams and Panthers kicks were very makeable, made indoors, etc. Not to discredit Vinatieri even in the slightest, but he wasn't booming 60-yarders to win those games. 

 

And to state it that way ignores the fact that that the Patriots did not need 7 points to win any of their Super Bowls. If it's tied up and you have the last possession, why on earth would you get it into FG range and then take silly chances, just to win by 7 instead of 3? 

 

 

 

 

As for the overall subject at hand...

 

There is a reason they keep track of quarterbacks' overall win-loss records from a historical standpoint. You don't hear it or see it happen with other players. You don't hear, "this offensive lineman went 140-67 as a starter during his NFL career." I said earlier, wins are a team accomplishment, but the responsibilities that come with the QB position mean that player probably has more influence over the outcome than any other. 

 

Stats also are misleading. A quarterback gets the same rating on an 8-yard completion on 1st-and-10 in the first quarter of a game as he'd get for the same pass on a 4th-and-7 with the clock ticking down inside the 2:00 warning. 

 

The common thread I see in playoff games that Brady and Manning have lost is that they may have not made critical errors or bad plays, but they also, at times, didn't pull off their usual miraculous performances. In some cases, that applies to wins as well. 

 

Both of them have, though, made their share of critical mistakes... Brady's INT against the Colts in 2006, or the week prior when he threw the pick that Troy Brown stripped away from the San Diego defender. Manning's had the Tracey Porter INT and last season's pick. 

 

Wins and losses are a team thing, but it's never really as simple as that, nor is it as simple as looking at the play of the QB. Each situation is different.

[Gramz]

I am really so very sick   :sick:  of everyone  and I feel like 

[amfootball]

Bledsoe remains one of my favorite all-time Patriots, and he stepped in and held down the fort in that game, but it's one of those situations where the more time goes by, the more his play gets a little exaggerated. He played well enough, but it's not like he went out there and lit it up. If he had, the decision to start Brady once healthy in the SB would have been a little more controversial. 

 

Drew went 10/21 that day, with 102 yards and one TD. But really the Patriots won that game on special teams. Troy Brown had a 55-yard punt return for a TD. The Patriots also blocked a FG and Brown picked it up, ran 11 yards with it, and then lateraled to Antwain Harris who ran it in from 45 yards out.

 

Also, another forgotten nugget from that game...

 

Vinatieri missed a 50-yarder in the 4th quarter just before the 2:00 warning that would have sealed it. Lawyer Milloy ended up interception Kordell Stewart on the ensuing possession.

 

 

 

Ugh, I like you Narc, but have to say I really, really hate this argument whenever someone brings it up. 

 

I love AV but the SB-winning kicks were not miracles. (The Snow Bowl kicks, perhaps... best two kicks, most clutch, I've ever seen, but the same doesn't necessarily apply to the SB winners.)

 

In fact, AV missed one early in the game against Carolina and also had one blocked in that game. Both the Rams and Panthers kicks were very makeable, made indoors, etc. Not to discredit Vinatieri even in the slightest, but he wasn't booming 60-yarders to win those games. 

 

And to state it that way ignores the fact that that the Patriots did not need 7 points to win any of their Super Bowls. If it's tied up and you have the last possession, why on earth would you get it into FG range and then take silly chances, just to win by 7 instead of 3? 

 

 

 

 

As for the overall subject at hand...

 

There is a reason they keep track of quarterbacks' overall win-loss records from a historical standpoint. You don't hear it or see it happen with other players. You don't hear, "this offensive lineman went 140-67 as a starter during his NFL career." I said earlier, wins are a team accomplishment, but the responsibilities that come with the QB position mean that player probably has more influence over the outcome than any other. 

 

Stats also are misleading. A quarterback gets the same rating on an 8-yard completion on 1st-and-10 in the first quarter of a game as he'd get for the same pass on a 4th-and-7 with the clock ticking down inside the 2:00 warning. 

 

The common thread I see in playoff games that Brady and Manning have lost is that they may have not made critical errors or bad plays, but they also, at times, didn't pull off their usual miraculous performances. In some cases, that applies to wins as well. 

 

Both of them have, though, made their share of critical mistakes... Brady's INT against the Colts in 2006, or the week prior when he threw the pick that Troy Brown stripped away from the San Diego defender. Manning's had the Tracey Porter INT and last season's pick. 

 

Wins and losses are a team thing, but it's never really as simple as that, nor is it as simple as looking at the play of the QB. Each situation is different.

Goodness, I had forgotten just how average Bledsoe was in that game. Do you remember the third down play where he threw the ball blind over his head? See play at 41 seconds of this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ZgykhrBlY

By far the worst decision I have ever seen in a football game. Right up there with Sanchez's butt fumble.

 

And as much as I did love Bledsoe like you when Brady stepped onto the field it became easy to see his flaws which were significant in terms of his pocket presence, ability to move in the pocket and overall decision making ability. I believe Bill would have started Brady on one leg in that SB if he had too. It was the clear at that point who gave the Pats the best chance to win.

[Superman]

Bledsoe remains one of my favorite all-time Patriots, and he stepped in and held down the fort in that game, but it's one of those situations where the more time goes by, the more his play gets a little exaggerated. He played well enough, but it's not like he went out there and lit it up. If he had, the decision to start Brady once healthy in the SB would have been a little more controversial. 

 

Drew went 10/21 that day, with 102 yards and one TD. But really the Patriots won that game on special teams. Troy Brown had a 55-yard punt return for a TD. The Patriots also blocked a FG and Brown picked it up, ran 11 yards with it, and then lateraled to Antwain Harris who ran it in from 45 yards out.

 

 

How average was Brady in the SB? Similar stat line, in a game dominated by the Pats defense against a really good offensive team, and up until the final drive of the game, Brady really wasn't playing well. Even on the final drive, the Pats won on a long FG.

 

Not knocking Brady, at all. But if you feel like Bledsoe's play in the conference championship is being romanticized, I could say the same thing about Brady's playoff record, especially that first year.

 

Things get exaggerated, and then don't hold up to scrutiny. That's kind of the point of the article to begin with. When you scrutinize Manning's play in the postseason, you recognize that the narrative about him not being a good playoff QB is greatly exaggerated.

[TAPLOOK]

his biggest games were the divisional games.

Also, wins are a team accomplishment. You said it yourself. Brady is putting up sub par numbers, yet the pats are still winning

 

Suit yourself.

[TAPLOOK]

How average was Brady in the SB? Similar stat line, in a game dominated by the Pats defense against a really good offensive team, and up until the final drive of the game, Brady really wasn't playing well. Even on the final drive, the Pats won on a long FG.

 

Not knocking Brady, at all. But if you feel like Bledsoe's play in the conference championship is being romanticized, I could say the same thing about Brady's playoff record, especially that first year.

 

Things get exaggerated, and then don't hold up to scrutiny. That's kind of the point of the article to begin with. When you scrutinize Manning's play in the postseason, you recognize that the narrative about him not being a good playoff QB is greatly exaggerated.

Brady has a way of playing well on the final drive. Go figure.

[Superman]

Brady has a way of playing well on the final drive. Go figure.

With exceptions.

[bluebambi]

I will ask 20 bright young guys what they would rather argue with .....a woman or a senile old man. Should be close , but I think the woman will rate slightly as the more aggravating. I'll let you know how it comes out.

Brady ... Manning... what's better chocolate or vanilla ice-cream ?

I vote senile old man

[TAPLOOK]

With exceptions.

 

To quote BB "No NFL team or player succeeds all the time". Even Joe Montana got smoked in PO games.

[chad72]

In the name of the holiday spirit, can we have a moratorum on Broncos or Patriots or Peyton or Brady related threads for 2 weeks? It would do this Colts forum a world of good.

[ZAZA418]

I don't need 1,000 word articles and charts and stats to tell me if a guy is good in the playoffs. I use my own eyes. I bet I've watched every single playoff game Manning has played. He's not good in the playoffs. not even a little. in most of his years i only had to watch one playoff game to find this out, because thats all he played in. 1 and DUN

[Gramz]

I don't need 1,000 word articles and charts and stats to tell me if a guy is good in the playoffs. I use my own eyes. I bet I've watched every single playoff game Manning has played. He's not good in the playoffs. not even a little. in most of his years i only had to watch one playoff game to find this out, because thats all he played in. 1 and DUN

I notice you have a grand total of 2 Posts, and BOTH are bashing Peyton.   Did you sign up just for this reason...??

That is what is known as a 

[Superman]

To quote BB "No NFL team or player succeeds all the time". Even Joe Montana got smoked in PO games.

 

That standard doesn't apply to Manning, though. When his defense blows a 7 point lead late in the fourth quarter, the loss gets laid at his feet. 

 

You can pick holes in Manning's playoff performances, absolutely. But you can do that with any QB. 

[jvan1973]

Suit yourself.

thanks

[TAPLOOK]

That standard doesn't apply to Manning, though. When his defense blows a 7 point lead late in the fourth quarter, the loss gets laid at his feet. 

 

You can pick holes in Manning's playoff performances, absolutely. But you can do that with any QB. 

Brady gets blame as well. When you are a high profile QB it's "Your team". It's not a mystery why certain QB's teams win most of the time. 

[TAPLOOK]

thanks

You are very welcome.

[dw49]

I vote senile old man

 

 

Thank you for the vote , as I was pretty sure she's more aggravating than me.

[shecolt]

I am really so very sick   :sick:  of everyone  and I feel like 

 

I hear you and concur. 

 

Sadly, it's been this way for a long time dating way back to my days on the IndyStar board  . . . which no longer exists.

 

As much as I hate to think of Peyton and Brady retiring, I do hope such conversations will then lessen.

 

But, I suppose it will then turn into fans telling us why their favorite QB is better than Luck. 

[Superman]

Brady gets blame as well. When you are a high profile QB it's "Your team". It's not a mystery why certain QB's teams win most of the time. 

 

Not really. Brady has the reputation of being a playoff QB, someone who "has a way of playing well with the game on the line," to quote someone from this thread. That's a well-earned reputation, by the way, but more often than not, it overrides any real analysis and/or criticism of his play in the postseason. 

[TAPLOOK]

Not really. Brady has the reputation of being a playoff QB, someone who "has a way of playing well with the game on the line," to quote someone from this thread. That's a well-earned reputation, by the way, but more often than not, it overrides any real analysis and/or criticism of his play in the postseason.

He finds a way to win most of the time even if he has been stinking it up most of the game. The guy's a winner for sure. W is the most important stat.

[Superman]

He finds a way to win most of the time even if he has been stinking it up most of the game. The guy's a winner for sure. W is the most important stat.

 

Most of the time in the playoffs, a win requires a good effort from the entire team, not just the QB. And Brady has some wins on his record that really don't speak to his ability to "find a way to win." Every QB does. He also has some losses that aren't necessarily his fault. Again, every QB does. But Brady gets carte blanche because 9 years ago, the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, and his reputation was forever forged as someone who performs well in the playoffs. "He's a winner." And that reputation has never been questioned or scrutinized since then. If Brady throws a pick late in a playoff game, we fall back on his reputation that was forged a decade ago, no matter what's happened in the years since.

 

Manning, on the other hand, took six years to win a playoff game. The questions about his ability to "win the big one," though misplaced, existed prior to his Super Bowl victory. Every mistake or shortcoming has been magnified, and when his team loses, the loss is thrown at his feet first and foremost. If Manning throws a pick in double overtime in the playoffs, it's further evidence that "he's not a good playoff QB." No matter the fact that the defense blew the lead late in regulation.

 

The comparisons are way off-kilter, and have been for a long time. Brady deserves a ton of credit for the way he plays, but these two QBs have had drastically different circumstances their entire careers. That matters. QBs are more important than any other individual player, but they still rely on their teammates, particularly in the playoffs.

[amfootball]

 

Most of the time in the playoffs, a win requires a good effort from the entire team, not just the QB. And Brady has some wins on his record that really don't speak to his ability to "find a way to win." Every QB does. He also has some losses that aren't necessarily his fault. Again, every QB does. But Brady gets carte blanche because 9 years ago, the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, and his reputation was forever forged as someone who performs well in the playoffs. "He's a winner." And that reputation has never been questioned or scrutinized since then. If Brady throws a pick late in a playoff game, we fall back on his reputation that was forged a decade ago, no matter what's happened in the years since.

 

Manning, on the other hand, took six years to win a playoff game. The questions about his ability to "win the big one," though misplaced, existed prior to his Super Bowl victory. Every mistake or shortcoming has been magnified, and when his team loses, the loss is thrown at his feet first and foremost. If Manning throws a pick in double overtime in the playoffs, it's further evidence that "he's not a good playoff QB." No matter the fact that the defense blew the lead late in regulation.

 

The comparisons are way off-kilter, and have been for a long time. Brady deserves a ton of credit for the way he plays, but these two QBs have had drastically different circumstances their entire careers. That matters. QBs are more important than any other individual player, but they still rely on their teammates, particularly in the playoffs.

Just to add what you said, the Pats also beat Manning twice on their way to their second and third SBs so I think those two playoff games in particular where Manning did not put up many points also add to the players perceptions.

 

But I think what probably gets overlooked the most is the fact that most don't believe a sixth round pick was capable of doing what Brady has done. I think if the roles were reversed and Peyton had Brady's career then most would feel like that is what Peyton was supposed to do - win 3 SBs and play in 5 as he was the first pick with the football pedigree. And if Brady never won a SB no one would say boo as he was never supposed to be a starter anyways. So everything Brady great ever did was never expected and everything Manning has done great is expected. So that part is also unfair and plays into it as well. The extremes are stunning and a once in a lifetime scenario for sure.

[Superman]

Just to add what you said, the Pats also beat Manning twice on their way to their second and third SBs so I think those two playoff games in particular where Manning did not put up many points also add to the players perceptions.

 

But I think what probably gets overlooked the most is the fact that most don't believe a sixth round pick was capable of doing what Brady has done. I think if the roles were reversed and Peyton had Brady's career then most would feel like that is what Peyton was supposed to do - win 3 SBs and play in 5 as he was the first pick with the football pedigree. And if Brady never won a SB no one would say boo as he was never supposed to be a starter anyways. So everything Brady great ever did was never expected and everything Manning has done great is expected. So that part is also unfair and plays into it as well. The extremes are stunning and a once in a lifetime scenario for sure.

 

 

Fair points.

[GoPats]

How average was Brady in the SB? Similar stat line, in a game dominated by the Pats defense against a really good offensive team, and up until the final drive of the game, Brady really wasn't playing well. Even on the final drive, the Pats won on a long FG.

 

Not knocking Brady, at all. But if you feel like Bledsoe's play in the conference championship is being romanticized, I could say the same thing about Brady's playoff record, especially that first year.

 

Things get exaggerated, and then don't hold up to scrutiny. That's kind of the point of the article to begin with. When you scrutinize Manning's play in the postseason, you recognize that the narrative about him not being a good playoff QB is greatly exaggerated.

 

Well, yeah but you kind of answered your own question there.

 

Brady may have not had a huge game in SB 36, but there's nothing exaggerated about the way he played for the last 90 seconds with no timeouts. And it was a long-ish field goal, yes, but given where they started and how much time they had, it was a FG any NFL kicker should make. 

 

Had Bledsoe lead the Patriots to a game-winning drive in the waning moments against the Steelers, I'd give him all the credit in the world. And it's not like he played poorly... he just didn't light it up, like I had said. Sometimes people refer to that game like he came in gangbusters and threw for 400 yards and five TDs. 

[Fx Stryker]

Did you read the article? The author said the research was done precisely to try to explain Manning's poor playoff record.

I did so did you? Nowhere does it say they intended to eradicate Peyton of anything.

[amfootball]

I did so did you? Nowhere does it say they intended to eradicate Peyton of anything.

lol. The title says: "The Myth of Playoff Peyton."  The author says up front in the first five paragraphs that he has put together his "research" to debunk the notion that Peyton is not a good playoff QB.

 

 

[Superman]

Well, yeah but you kind of answered your own question there.

 

Brady may have not had a huge game in SB 36, but there's nothing exaggerated about the way he played for the last 90 seconds with no timeouts. And it was a long-ish field goal, yes, but given where they started and how much time they had, it was a FG any NFL kicker should make. 

 

Had Bledsoe lead the Patriots to a game-winning drive in the waning moments against the Steelers, I'd give him all the credit in the world. And it's not like he played poorly... he just didn't light it up, like I had said. Sometimes people refer to that game like he came in gangbusters and threw for 400 yards and five TDs. 

 

And sometimes people overstate Brady's play on the last drive in the SB. (Also, more to the point, Brady gets a playoff win for the Steelers game, even though he didn't play most of the game. That's kind of what the other poster was saying, not that Drew Bledsoe turned in a performance for the ages.)

 

Like I said, all the credit in the world for Brady's performance on that final drive, but that defense held the Greatest Show on Turf to 17 points, indoors. The offense really didn't perform well, and there was a long stretch of mediocrity on Brady's part, up until that last drive. But Manning only threw one TD against the Bears, so that means he didn't have a good game...

 

Also, talking about makeable FGs, the Colts lost two playoff games due to missed FGs by Mike Vanderjagt, a 46 yarder against Pittsburgh, at home, and a 49 yarder at Miami, no weather. Those aren't brought up when people talk about how many one-and-dones Manning has.

 

The article points out how Manning has performed well even in losses (or at least well enough to win). That takes nothing away from Brady. Just shows how pointing out a QB's win-loss record is shallow analysis.

[GoPats]

 

And sometimes people overstate Brady's play on the last drive in the SB. (Also, more to the point, Brady gets a playoff win for the Steelers game, even though he didn't play most of the game. That's kind of what the other poster was saying, not that Drew Bledsoe turned in a performance for the ages.)

 

Like I said, all the credit in the world for Brady's performance on that final drive, but that defense held the Greatest Show on Turf to 17 points, indoors. The offense really didn't perform well, and there was a long stretch of mediocrity on Brady's part, up until that last drive. But Manning only threw one TD against the Bears, so that means he didn't have a good game...

 

Also, talking about makeable FGs, the Colts lost two playoff games due to missed FGs by Mike Vanderjagt, a 46 yarder against Pittsburgh, at home, and a 49 yarder at Miami, no weather. Those aren't brought up when people talk about how many one-and-dones Manning has.

 

The article points out how Manning has performed well even in losses (or at least well enough to win). That takes nothing away from Brady. Just shows how pointing out a QB's win-loss record is shallow analysis.

 

I agree with everything here except the bolded part. You can't really "overstate" that situation, IMO. 24-year-old, 6th round pick, 90 seconds, long field, on that stage, in that situation? He didn't throw an 80-yard TD but he sure got it done. Despite John Madden urging them to take a knee.  ;)

 

And the only thing Vanderjagt has in common with Vinatieri is the second initial of their names... he's like the anti-Vinatieiri. Hard to believe Adam's been kicking in Indy for, what, seven years now? Going on eight? That's nearly half his career!