Does John Elway deserve part of the blame for Dumervil's departure?

[ReMeDy]

Now that it's confirmed the Broncos missed out on Dumervil, I'm turning my fangs on John Elway. Frankly, I still despise Elway receiving so much "GM of the year" recognition just because he signed Peyton, and this embarrassing Dumervil issue further proves Elway is incompetent. My first issue is why does Mr. Elway need paperwork via a fax machine? It wouldn't surprise me if he uses a slide projector during team meetings. Second, couldn't he have called Dumervil up personally and said, "Uhh... Dumervil, we're close to the deadline. You need to step it up, brah."

 

Yes, mistakes happen, but the fact is this circus event didn't happen to the other 31 teams. Why wasn't John beating down Dumervil and/or the agent's door to avoid this situation?

[Fx Stryker]

There was one report that said the Broncos pleaded with Doom and his agent to not use a fax machine.

 

Both sides playing chicken has put each party in a setback however.

[oldunclemark]

 

_{Do you think losing Dumervill at his price is a a loss if they sign Freeney at bargain rates?}

 

_{Those are dollars which helped acquire a new WR and OG}

 

[supremecoltsfan300]

Elway really did a good job with this in my opinion.  He did keep checking in on Dumervil, and he was ready to release dumervil at 1pm mt when the agent said they weren't accepting the deal.  It just so happened that dumervil did change his mind at 1:25 mt that day. Elway did remind them multiple times to hurry up and did suggest using post-1980 technology to get them the signature.  The fault is all on the agent (and dumervil for waiting so long).  Elway was never going to pay dumervil 12 million, and while he optimally wanted dumervil back for cheaper, he was all along fully prepared to move on without him.  And I can't blame him.

 

About last year....I do think it was a significant achievement landing Manning...he handled it perfectly.

He also made some other under the radar good moves like signing Koppen as the center which was huge and then getting a guy like Brooking for lb which really helped the D down the stretch.  Tamme was a solid (not great) addition too. 

[oldunclemark]

SCF is right..

 

Denver did NOT want Dumervill going forward at $12 mil...

 

The demand that he cut his salary told everyone they wouldnt mind if he left

 

....They werent going to pay him what Balt did.  Not this year or 3 or 4 years from now.  He's not that good a player..

 

If they sign Freeney or Abraham, Denver got exactly what they wanted...low price..short term

[throwing BBZ]

 Elway was dealing with the players  Certified Professional Agent.
 

Just hope they sign Freeney.

[21isSuperman]

I also don't like Elway, but I thought this was the agent's fault.  Had the agent faxed the document sooner, wouldn't this have not even happened?  From the limited knowledge I have about the issue, it sounded like the agent had enough time to fax it and it either just slipped his mind or he left it to the last minute or, for whatever reason, didn't fax it on time

[The Peytonator]

He probably didn't really care because Dumervil is a mediocre player. If they sign Abraham or Freeney they'll forget all about him.

 

Doom was crying about wanting to be wanted, but it sounds like they offered him more than one contract but he declined. He was just butthurt and somehow swindled Baltimore out of $8M a year.

[Andy]

It's the agent's fault. 

 

I Don't say this often, but it's well deserved:

 

The man deserved to get fired. 

[Tark The Shark]

I don't care much for Elway with his history with the Colts, but I thought he did his part with Dumervil.

 

Dumervil should have known what the deadline was, but I am sure both sides are better, now, where they are.

[Mameluc]

just curious, but why is there so general "disdain" for John Elway?

[Fx Stryker]

just curious, but why is there so general "disdain" for John Elway?

 

From the '83 draft.

[amfootball]

Hard to really blame Elway for the Doom situation as he was pretty clear about needing to downsize the contract and gave Doom plenty of time to submit his paper work. Josh McDaniels is probably more at fault then Elway.

 

That being said, Elway is not a very good PR man. He called Doom's contract "out of whack" which had to rub Doom the wrong way. And I thought he handled the entire Tebow situation terribly two years ago as he kept hedging around on whether or not Tebow would be his guy going forward. I think as a GM you have to have better comm. skills especially publicly. It is not surprising that Doom said he wanted to go somewhere where he felt wanted. So I think to an extent the way Elway handled the situation verbally was an issue and may be what made Doom push the time limit so far.

[teganslaw]

The few times I've seen John Elway, he seems arrogant. I don't like the way he handled the situation with Tebow. It's understandable wanting to sign Manning, but Elway wasn't upfront about the whole thing. The way I saw it, he acted like Tebow would still be their starting quarterback, all the while he was pursuing Manning. Why didn't he just come out and state that he wanted to sign Manning and trade Tebow? Instead, he just strung Tebow along, saying false things. Not very honest. I know that he's not the only manager to do this, but I still don't think it's right.

 

Maybe I have the whole situation wrong and don't know all the facts, but it's the way I saw things.

[bayone]

Now that it's confirmed the Broncos missed out on Dumervil, I'm turning my fangs on John Elway. Frankly, I still despise Elway receiving so much "GM of the year" recognition just because he signed Peyton, and this embarrassing Dumervil issue further proves Elway is incompetent. My first issue is why does Mr. Elway need paperwork via a fax machine? It wouldn't surprise me if he uses a slide projector during team meetings. Second, couldn't he have called Dumervil up personally and said, "Uhh... Dumervil, we're close to the deadline. You need to step it up, brah."

 

Yes, mistakes happen, but the fact is this circus event didn't happen to the other 31 teams. Why wasn't John beating down Dumervil and/or the agent's door to avoid this situation?

 

Actually, and I posted this somewhere with article references link,, that Broncos FO kept trying to have Magjid send back the documents by faster means, just like they sent them to doom agent originally by e-mail

[bayone]

There was one report that said the Broncos pleaded with Doom and his agent to not use a fax machine.

 

Both sides playing chicken has put each party in a setback however.

 

yes u r right , I had posted an article on that with a link when this all occurred

[bayone]

I dont remember all the details,  so wont question if he strung tebow along, I do remember they could of had a better deal by trading him to Jags but honored Tebows request to go to jets

 

Maybe that was out of quilt i dont know , but a better draft pick offered would have been nice

 

 

The few times I've seen John Elway, he seems arrogant. I don't like the way he handled the situation with Tebow. It's understandable wanting to sign Manning, but Elway wasn't upfront about the whole thing. The way I saw it, he acted like Tebow would still be their starting quarterback, all the while he was pursuing Manning. Why didn't he just come out and state that he wanted to sign Manning and trade Tebow? Instead, he just strung Tebow along, saying false things. Not very honest. I know that he's not the only manager to do this, but I still don't think it's right.

 

Maybe I have the whole situation wrong and don't know all the facts, but it's the way I saw things.

 

 

Hard to really blame Elway for the Doom situation as he was pretty clear about needing to downsize the contract and gave Doom plenty of time to submit his paper work. Josh McDaniels is probably more at fault then Elway.

 

That being said, Elway is not a very good PR man. He called Doom's contract "out of whack" which had to rub Doom the wrong way. And I thought he handled the entire Tebow situation terribly two years ago as he kept hedging around on whether or not Tebow would be his guy going forward. I think as a GM you have to have better comm. skills especially publicly. It is not surprising that Doom said he wanted to go somewhere where he felt wanted. So I think to an extent the way Elway handled the situation verbally was an issue and may be what made Doom push the time limit so far.

[chad72]

It is a case of Jake Scott with the Colts all over again. Offered the same or more money with his old team but because it was the first deal presented to him, even if it was sweet enough, the pride factor was too much to swallow for Dumervil and it resulted in him going to the Ravens.

 

Peyton lost a key player in Edge after 2005 and got an ex-Patriot in Vinatieri in 2006, and we know what happened in 2006.

[bayone]

Elway really did a good job with this in my opinion.  He did keep checking in on Dumervil, and he was ready to release dumervil at 1pm mt when the agent said they weren't accepting the deal.  It just so happened that dumervil did change his mind at 1:25 mt that day. Elway did remind them multiple times to hurry up and did suggest using post-1980 technology to get them the signature.  The fault is all on the agent (and dumervil for waiting so long).  Elway was never going to pay dumervil 12 million, and while he optimally wanted dumervil back for cheaper, he was all along fully prepared to move on without him.  And I can't blame him.

 

About last year....I do think it was a significant achievement landing Manning...he handled it perfectly.

He also made some other under the radar good moves like signing Koppen as the center which was huge and then getting a guy like Brooking for lb which really helped the D down the stretch.  Tamme was a solid (not great) addition too. 

 

 

could resign Knopeen now with money saved, thin at center, 1 rookie injured in preseason  and the starter who the rookie was to replace eventually also on ir early in season

 

thats another thing that may need to be addresed in draft, but DE & RB are main 2

[BOTT]

just curious, but why is there so general "disdain" for John Elway?

Because he refused to play for a horses *

[pacolts56]

Because he refused to play for a horses *

By threatening to play for George Steinbrenner instead?

[Mameluc]

Because he refused to play for a horses *

right, had forgotten about it

[Thewholefnshow28]

The few times I've seen John Elway, he seems arrogant. I don't like the way he handled the situation with Tebow. It's understandable wanting to sign Manning, but Elway wasn't upfront about the whole thing. The way I saw it, he acted like Tebow would still be their starting quarterback, all the while he was pursuing Manning. Why didn't he just come out and state that he wanted to sign Manning and trade Tebow? Instead, he just strung Tebow along, saying false things. Not very honest. I know that he's not the only manager to do this, but I still don't think it's right.

 

Maybe I have the whole situation wrong and don't know all the facts, but it's the way I saw things.

 

What happens if they do not sign Manning though?  What happens if Manning decides that offer from the 49ers is better?  Then he probably has a butt hurt Tebow on his hand because he was being honest.  He did not know how Tebow would handle knowing that they were actively trying to replace him.  Also, the fans of Tebow were rabid in Denver so being totally honest up front would just mean he have to hear their whinning.  Instead he played it close to his vest and kept the boat from rocking until he got Mannings signature and then he can get rid of Tebow.

 

This situation with Dumervill is nothing but his agent's fault and Dumervill knew that because he fired the guy.  The fact his agent used a fax machines says a lot.  When you have electronic signatures and PDFs available to you there is no excuse for what happened.  

 

This comes from a guy who cannot stand Elway either.  

[Superman]

Elway made the decision; he deserves the blame for sure.

 

But it was a messy situation, and if you're going to blame him, you have to blame him from the very beginning. At the end of the day, the Broncos released him just like they said they would. All the little details in between are kind of irrelevant. He's gone, just like they were prepared for him to be. Him coming back, and even him restructuring, was never considered a definite.

 

All in all, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Teams release good players for cap reasons all the time. Dumervil is a good pass rusher, but he's a limited fit as an every down end, and wasn't worth the money. He's very replaceable, and the Broncos will have options in the draft. If they replace him with Freeney as a designated pass rusher, they may even get more bang for the buck. Adding Knighton, Bradley and DRC does more for their defense altogether than keeping Dumervil would have.

[Superman]

This situation with Dumervill is nothing but his agent's fault and Dumervill knew that because he fired the guy.  The fact his agent used a fax machines says a lot.  When you have electronic signatures and PDFs available to you there is no excuse for what happened.  

 

Fax machines are not as antiquated as you seem to think, especially when it comes to contracts and legal documents. Some documents require wet signatures, meaning you can't electronically sign them. Most contracts like this are transmitted via fax, being that it's still more secure than email.

 

It is his agent's fault, but it's got very little to do with the fax machine.

[Yehoodi]

I will just throw in my two cents here . . . I dont know all of the facts so my point might be off base, but I have always been of the opinion that the Faxgate was not all as big as it should of been . . . meaning parties to a contract can always negotiate an amended or whole new contract . . . and if the old contract was dead or otherwise compromise, they was nothing stopping two parties from redoing a new deal 10 mins after the deadline was breached by the late fax . . . (unless there was something that one side had a big advantage from the old contract that would not be reoffered under a new one)

As for Elway being at fault, time will only tell if Denver will benefit from the reduction is cap hit versus the lose of Dumervil against his replacment . . .

We will just have to wait and see . . .

[MAC]

I will just throw in my two cents here . . . I dont know all of the facts so my point might be off base, but I have always been of the opinion that the Faxgate was not all as big as it should of been . . . meaning parties to a contract can always negotiate an amended or whole new contract . . . and if the old contract was dead or otherwise compromise, they was nothing stopping two parties from redoing a new deal 10 mins after the deadline was breached by the late fax . . . (unless there was something that one side had a big advantage from the old contract that would not be reoffered under a new one)

As for Elway being at fault, time will only tell if Denver will benefit from the reduction is cap hit versus the lose of Dumervil against his replacment . . .

We will just have to wait and see . . .

They did start negotiating a new contract - not ten minutes after, but as soon as Dumervil hired a new agent.

 

The problem was that upon release the slow write-off of the prior bonuses on Dumervil's contract accelerated into a $4.8 million dollar cap hit, meaning that the Broncos could no longer offer as favorable contract as previously without damaging their cap situation - concern for which was of course the reason that they asked him to take a reduction in the first place.

 

I'm frankly astonished that they were still "in the running" as late as they were, but it's not surprising that the Ravens were able to entice him considering the fact that he will be able to go back to playing 3-4 OLB - under the same coach for which he did so previously with the Broncos. That was the "year" that earned him the big contract in the first place.

[amfootball]

Elway made the decision; he deserves the blame for sure.

 

But it was a messy situation, and if you're going to blame him, you have to blame him from the very beginning. At the end of the day, the Broncos released him just like they said they would. All the little details in between are kind of irrelevant. He's gone, just like they were prepared for him to be. Him coming back, and even him restructuring, was never considered a definite.

 

All in all, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Teams release good players for cap reasons all the time. Dumervil is a good pass rusher, but he's a limited fit as an every down end, and wasn't worth the money. He's very replaceable, and the Broncos will have options in the draft. If they replace him with Freeney as a designated pass rusher, they may even get more bang for the buck. Adding Knighton, Bradley and DRC does more for their defense altogether than keeping Dumervil would have.

If it was no big deal to replace him and they can just plug and play with Freeney and a draft pick then why ask him to take a pay cut in the first place? Like you said, teams release quality guys all the time. Not only did they not "just" release him they took a dead cap hit to boot and then tried like mad to resign him. So no, this one stings big time. Defense is where the Broncs needed to get better not lose a key guy still in his prime.

[MAC]

The few times I've seen John Elway, he seems arrogant. I don't like the way he handled the situation with Tebow. It's understandable wanting to sign Manning, but Elway wasn't upfront about the whole thing. The way I saw it, he acted like Tebow would still be their starting quarterback, all the while he was pursuing Manning. Why didn't he just come out and state that he wanted to sign Manning and trade Tebow? Instead, he just strung Tebow along, saying false things. Not very honest. I know that he's not the only manager to do this, but I still don't think it's right.

 

Maybe I have the whole situation wrong and don't know all the facts, but it's the way I saw things.

Until the moment Manning signed Tebow still WAS their starting quarterback, and he was adored by millions of frenzied "fans". What exactly would you have likely Elway to do, publicly announce "our QB is horrendous and my intention is to dump him as soon as humanly possibly, but I'm going to keep him on the roster for now just in case we are so desperate that we still have to keep him". That's unrealistic. What would have happened if Manning signed elsewhere?

 

If you would like I'll dig up the articles where Elway said some incredibly nice things about Tebow, appeasing the "devoted" as best he could, while doing the right thing for his team - which is his job.  I don't see what arrogance has to do with any of this. He later somehow manage to extract compensation for Tebow when every single team in the league knew that they would have to release him. That makes him a good GM, which is of far more concern to me than the fact that some people don't like the expression on his face. 

[chad72]

If it didn't happen this year, it would have happened next year for Doom. His contract signed under the Josh McDaniels era was flat out not sustainable in the long run. I am not far off in saying that Elway is doing a lot of clean up for the damage done in the McDaniels era, as short as it was.

[Superman]

If it was no big deal to replace him and they can just plug and play with Freeney and a draft pick then why ask him to take a pay cut in the first place? Like you said, teams release quality guys all the time. Not only did they not "just" release him they took a dead cap hit to boot and then tried like mad to resign him. So no, this one stings big time. Defense is where the Broncs needed to get better not lose a key guy still in his prime.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'm sure they would have preferred to keep him, and their actions make that clear. But they didn't think he was worth the money, and I think they were right. And Dumervil is not the only pass rusher they can have to fill that need. The draft has tons of pass rushers, and there are still guys in free agency. If they play it smart from this point forward, they'll be able to cushion the loss of Dumervil very easily.

[amfootball]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'm sure they would have preferred to keep him, and their actions make that clear. But they didn't think he was worth the money, and I think they were right. And Dumervil is not the only pass rusher they can have to fill that need. The draft has tons of pass rushers, and there are still guys in free agency. If they play it smart from this point forward, they'll be able to cushion the loss of Dumervil very easily.

Whose putting words on your mouth?

 

Sure they can cushion the blow but there is a lot risk trying to fill the need with an unproven rookie and an older FA. I mean Freeney dealt with a foot issue all last season.

 

In the end, Elway did what was necessary. As I stated before, this is more on McDaniels. I just think Elway's PR skills and personal skills lack at times...

[DILLIGAFER]

IT'S MILLER TIME.. NOT DOOM'S DAY!      

[Superman]

Whose putting words on your mouth?

 

Sure they can cushion the blow but there is a lot risk trying to fill the need with an unproven rookie and an older FA. I mean Freeney dealt with a foot issue all last season.

 

In the end, Elway did what was necessary. As I stated before, this is more on McDaniels. I just think Elway's PR skills and personal skills lack at times...

 

They don't have to sign Freeney. But eventually they'd need to replace Dumervil, and this year is as good as any with all the pass rushers in the draft. It was a money decision, and the eventual outcome is exactly what the Broncos were prepared for it to be when they first decided that they needed him to take a pay cut or they'd have to release him. All the messiness, whoever's fault it is, has nothing to do with the black and white of it: they didn't want to pay Dumervil $12m, so they decided to release him. That's it, self-contained, nothing else.

 

Freeney would be a decent stop-gap as a pass rusher, but he isn't the answer to the problem. They'll be able to supplement their pass rush one way or the other, or in a combination of ways. It's not the end of the world. 

 

I couldn't care less about Elway's PR skills and personal skills. 

[oldunclemark]

Denver isnt looking for long term answers to anything..

 

 Dwight Freeney IS Elvis Dumervill plus 3 years and a bad ankle

 

 

If he's Okay, they get the same thing at 1/2 the price....

 

If you're playing New Engand in the AFC title game, next January...who do you want..Dumervill or Freeney

 

Watching the Balt-Denver tape of last Janaury, If healthy, I'd want Freeney

[Yehoodi]

They did start negotiating a new contract - not ten minutes after, but as soon as Dumervil hired a new agent.

 

The problem was that upon release the slow write-off of the prior bonuses on Dumervil's contract accelerated into a $4.8 million dollar cap hit, meaning that the Broncos could no longer offer as favorable contract as previously without damaging their cap situation - concern for which was of course the reason that they asked him to take a reduction in the first place.

 

I'm frankly astonished that they were still "in the running" as late as they were, but it's not surprising that the Ravens were able to entice him considering the fact that he will be able to go back to playing 3-4 OLB - under the same coach for which he did so previously with the Broncos. That was the "year" that earned him the big contract in the first place.

okay thnaks . . . so it was a cap issue that put pressure on a new contract . . .

[pacolts56]

Denver isnt looking for long term answers to anything..

 

 Dwight Freeney IS Elvis Dumervill plus 3 years and a bad ankle

 

 

If he's Okay, they get the same thing at 1/2 the price....

 

If you're playing New Engand in the AFC title game, next January...who do you want..Dumervill or Freeney

 

Watching the Balt-Denver tape of last Janaury, If healthy, I'd want Freeney

No kidding....half their roster shouldn't even buy green bananas.

 

That's a win-now situation if there ever was one.

[wig]

Yes, he is to blame for not wanting to pay him 12 mil a year. So he's to blame for making a good business decision, not his fault the agent screwed up the renegotiated contract.

[amfootball]

They don't have to sign Freeney. But eventually they'd need to replace Dumervil, and this year is as good as any with all the pass rushers in the draft. It was a money decision, and the eventual outcome is exactly what the Broncos were prepared for it to be when they first decided that they needed him to take a pay cut or they'd have to release him. All the messiness, whoever's fault it is, has nothing to do with the black and white of it: they didn't want to pay Dumervil $12m, so they decided to release him. That's it, self-contained, nothing else.

 

Freeney would be a decent stop-gap as a pass rusher, but he isn't the answer to the problem. They'll be able to supplement their pass rush one way or the other, or in a combination of ways. It's not the end of the world. 

 

I couldn't care less about Elway's PR skills and personal skills. 

I would be very worried about this PR skills as if his public communication is any indication of the way he deals one-on-one with players than he is going to rub players the wrong way a lot. Remember Doom said he wanted to go somewhere to feel wanted. This was not just because of the pay cut as he did not sign for that much more with the Ravens but had to do with the way Elway dealt with him. Asking a player to take that big of a pay cut needs to be positioned well and I think Elway failed big time and as a GM the communication part is critical to his job. These players are basically over sensitive babies with huge egos - how something is said is as important as what it is said.

[teganslaw]

MAC, I can see your point, you don't have to find those articles for me. GMs have to deal with the public and still do what is best for their team.

 

I have to admit that I've always liked Tim Tebow and hate to see all the bad publicity he's gotten. I  feel a need to defend him. (Totally unrealistic as I've never even met him and he would have no idea who I am.) I think the Jets have done him wrong, but that's another issue.

 

To get on topic, I don't think Elway is to blame for Dumervil's departure. That was the player and his agent. Overall, it was a business decision as the NFL has become more of a business than a sport.