Timing for 3-4 defense vs 4-3

[jwilli69]

Looking at the new breed QB coming in and running the read offense, is having a 3-4 with bigger guys going to be the right move? Would having the Tampa two with faster smaller guys be better to defend this new style? it is going to be an interesting offseason for defensive coordinators around the league figuring out schemes to combat this new style of QB. Peyton Manning as great as a pocket passer as he is/was, DC knew where he was going to be, just had to get to him. DC do not know where this new QB will be at any given snap. Creativity of the defense will have to come about in the NFL to fight these superb running QB's now. Can we adjust our scheme and lead in the scheming for these kids?

[BleedBlu8792]

Looking at the new breed QB coming in and running the read offense, is having a 3-4 with bigger guys going to be the right move? Would having the Tampa two with faster smaller guys be better to defend this new style? it is going to be an interesting offseason for defensive coordinators around the league figuring out schemes to combat this new style of QB. Peyton Manning as great as a pocket passer as he is/was, DC knew where he was going to be, just had to get to him. DC do not know where this new QB will be at any given snap. Creativity of the defense will have to come about in the NFL to fight these superb running QB's now. Can we adjust our scheme and lead in the scheming for these kids?

I'd say no because the Giants have one of the quicker 4-man fronts with their NASCAR package and they struggled with RG3 in both games. It really comes down to gap discipline and containing the outside. They are just waiting for that outside guy (OLB/DE) to come down and then take off from there.

[UKColt13]

If its done well, then the 3-4 is just as effective against scrambling QBs

[YOUR GM]

Looking at the new breed QB coming in and running the read offense, is having a 3-4 with bigger guys going to be the right move? Would having the Tampa two with faster smaller guys be better to defend this new style? it is going to be an interesting offseason for defensive coordinators around the league figuring out schemes to combat this new style of QB. Peyton Manning as great as a pocket passer as he is/was, DC knew where he was going to be, just had to get to him. DC do not know where this new QB will be at any given snap. Creativity of the defense will have to come about in the NFL to fight these superb running QB's now. Can we adjust our scheme and lead in the scheming for these kids?

 

I think you'll see more teams run the Tampa 2 because of it. Monte Kiffin (Tampa-2 guru) was hired by the Cowboys, partly because of Robert Griffin's emergence in the NFC East, I feel. You might be on to something there

[lollygagger8]

If Tampa 2 was the answer, Lovie Smith would have been hired instantly already.

[Balzer40]

The Tampa 2 is NEVER the answer. I won't go into a long dissertation about how much I despise the Tampa 2, but I think it is a defense that is well past its prime and the Cowboys will find that out soon enough. IMO the 3-4 defense is the best defense in football and with Pagano's hybrid mixed in with it, I think we'll become one of the better defense's in football as long as the team is willing to sink a little money into it. 

 

 

I'll add in to, that I seriously do not believe for a second that the running QB or the read option offense is going to become a staple of the NFL. Seems like every other yr. there is a QB with great athletic ability come into the league thats going to "revolutionize" the QB position and yet, it never happens. Pocket passers are and always will be the best QB's in the NFL.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

You're gonna start a riot with the clinically delusional "the Tampa 2 or the 4/3 in general is dead" crowd (I have to combine them because so often their arguments run together).

[HarassedOffTheSite]

If Tampa 2 was the answer, Lovie Smith would have been hired instantly already.

 

Because GMs in the NFC East & West are brilliant, right?

[TKnight24]

Any Defense can stop any QB. You have to be Disciplined. Look at how the Bengals beat up RG3 when they played. All you have to do is know your assignment & execute

[YOUR GM]

The Tampa 2 is NEVER the answer. I won't go into a long dissertation about how much I despise the Tampa 2, but I think it is a defense that is well past its prime and the Cowboys will find that out soon enough. IMO the 3-4 defense is the best defense in football and with Pagano's hybrid mixed in with it, I think we'll become one of the better defense's in football as long as the team is willing to sink a little money into it. 

 

 

I'll add in to, that I seriously do not believe for a second that the running QB or the read option offense is going to become a staple of the NFL. Seems like every other yr. there is a QB with great athletic ability come into the league thats going to "revolutionize" the QB position and yet, it never happens. Pocket passers are and always will be the best QB's in the NFL.

 

Most Colts fans hate the Tampa-2 because of the results we had with it here. The scheme wasn't the problem, however. Lack of elite talent at the Mike, corners and UT is why we were never as successful with it as the Bucs or even the Bears. When Dungy left, the scheme should've left with him because Coyer, Meeks and whoever else were not good enough coaches to run it. Lack of creativity from the coaching staff was just as much the problem. Look at how the Bears utilize their Tampa-2. They mix in man coverage and disguise their blitzes better than anyone in the league, and when they were healthy, they were the best D in football this year. Meeks, Coyer and Dungy rarely mixed up the looks they gave opposing offenses. That, to me, was our problem, more so than the scheme itself

[HarassedOffTheSite]

The scheme wasn't the problem, however. Lack of elite talent at the Mike, corners and UT is why we were never as successful with it

 

Spot on (with a caveat, I do not think you need CBs better than what we had to run it)!!

 

For some still unexplained reason (which intrigues me most about the Polian years), he and his son REFUSED to aquire the talent needed to run the Defense that we had. And the talent was out there to be had.

 

Never did and never will understand it.

[YOUR GM]

Spot on (with a caveat, I do not think you need CBs better than what we had to run it)!!

 

For some still unexplained reason (which intrigues me most about the Polian years), he and his son REFUSED to aquire the talent needed to run the Defense that we had. And the talent was out there to be had.

 

Never did and never will understand it.

 

Polian cared more about maintaining the weapons Peyton had around him than balancing out the team. He essentially gave all of our money to Peyton and his targets (save Freeney and Mathis) and shopped at the flea market for defensive players and o-line. We got away with it for awhile, but it doomed both him and us, as soon as Peyton went down

[Balzer40]

Most Colts fans hate the Tampa-2 because of the results we had with it here. The scheme wasn't the problem, however. Lack of elite talent at the Mike, corners and UT is why we were never as successful with it as the Bucs or even the Bears. When Dungy left, the scheme should've left with him because Coyer, Meeks and whoever else were not good enough coaches to run it. Lack of creativity from the coaching staff was just as much the problem. Look at how the Bears utilize their Tampa-2. They mix in man coverage and disguise their blitzes better than anyone in the league, and when they were healthy, they were the best D in football this year. Meeks, Coyer and Dungy rarely mixed up the looks they gave opposing offenses. That, to me, was our problem, more so than the scheme itself

 

 

I won't disagree that the lack of talent is what really made the Tampa 2 suck here, but I am still not a fan of it at all. I honestly believe that offenses have caught up with it and figured out how to exploit it. Without elite talent on the d-line and lber's the Tampa 2 is a doomed scheme. Most teams can not put that elite talent at those positions unless you sacrifice your offense and since its such an offensive driven league anymore, the Tampa 2 is just not going to be effective. Chicago is the rare exception and that is because like you said, they can play man coverage and disguise their blitzes so well. Not to mention they have been lucky to be able to acquire good talent on the defensive side of the ball.

[YOUR GM]

I won't disagree that the lack of talent is what really made the Tampa 2 suck here, but I am still not a fan of it at all. I honestly believe that offenses have caught up with it and figured out how to exploit it. Without elite talent on the d-line and lber's the Tampa 2 is a doomed scheme. Most teams can not put that elite talent at those positions unless you sacrifice your offense and since its such an offensive driven league anymore, the Tampa 2 is just not going to be effective. Chicago is the rare exception and that is because like you said, they can play man coverage and disguise their blitzes so well. Not to mention they have been lucky to be able to acquire good talent on the defensive side of the ball.

 

I'll leave you to your own opinions but I just want to point out that the bolded is true for every scheme. There's not one top defense in the league without one or the other (or both, in most cases)

 

 

 

Talent trumps all, at the end of the day

[Balzer40]

I'll leave you to your own opinions but I just want to point out that the bolded is true for every scheme. There's not one top defense in the league without one or the other (or both, in most cases)

 

 

 

Talent trumps all, at the end of the day

 

 

 

......and I'll leave you to yours too, but I'll say that I do think that for example, the Colts new defense this yr. can be somewhat effective without elite talent. The Colts defense this yr. was not terrible and was better than most of the yrs. we ran the Tampa 2 and that was with very little talent at most positions. 

[BOTT]

Think your jumping the gun

[UKCOLT17]

I think the 3 -4 is best but need the right players looking at the steelers they dint struggle against the redskins but that's only one game I can't stand the Tampa 2 worst ever but I think were going in right direction cause we play both which is good were only going to get better

[YOUR GM]

......and I'll leave you to yours too, but I'll say that I do think that for example, the Colts new defense this yr. can be somewhat effective without elite talent. The Colts defense this yr. was not terrible and was better than most of the yrs. we ran the Tampa 2 and that was with very little talent at most positions. 

 

Our defense was still pretty bad this year. Injuries played a major role in our struggles this season, but I think the fact they kept us in as many games as they did is more a testament to solid coaching, than an indication that one scheme is superior to another. I think we can all agree that coaching was our biggest weakness here the previous 2-3 years. 

[ADayWithoutRain]

Are you guys' serious?..."new breed"?Where do these "new breed qb's" end-up?The 'IR'.We've always had these type of players(most do not survive long enough to be remembered).Its only a matter of time before wilson/catnip suffer the same fate as RG3.The smart ones(actually,just one>mcnair),evolve to become pocket passers,that ocasionally run/scramble for extra time.

[Balzer40]

Our defense was still pretty bad this year. Injuries played a major role in our struggles this season, but I think the fact they kept us in as many games as they did is more a testament to solid coaching, than an indication that one scheme is superior to another. I think we can all agree that coaching was our biggest weakness here the previous 2-3 years. 

 

 

I think it goes back further than that, but thats another discussion so I'll agree with the bolded part. I won't keep harping on the fact that I can not stand the Tampa 2 and I will just say that I think we are headed in a much better direction for the future.

[YOUR GM]

I think it goes back further than that, but thats another discussion so I'll agree with the bolded part. I won't keep harping on the fact that I can not stand the Tampa 2 and I will just say that I think we are headed in a much better direction for the future.

 

I agree we're headed in the right direction. That's because this team has a vision and a voice now. Grigson and Pagano are the foundation of that

[Warhorse]

How does that triangle offense work without Koby or Michael? Players can make schemes sometime.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I won't disagree that the lack of talent is what really made the Tampa 2 suck here, but I am still not a fan of it at all. 

 

Not being a fan of something and trying to promote the silly notion that a defense is somehow fundementally ineffective are two different things. The Tampa 2 works fine. Actually works very good.

 

 

I honestly believe that offenses have caught up with it and figured out how to exploit it.

 

 

This is the silly notion that I referenced. Every offensive coordinator in the NFL knows how to exploint every defense in the NFL. So that is not an issue. The issue(s) are (for all defenses) talent and game day play callling.

 

 

Without elite talent on the d-line and lber's the Tampa 2 is a doomed scheme.

 

 

No. Elite talent is not needed. Talent is. Regardless, all defenses have key requirements at certain positions. Not filling out those positions with talent will doom any defense. This is a general rule that applies across the board and the Tampa 2 does not have the market cornered in this respect.

 

 

Not to mention they have been lucky to be able to acquire good talent on the defensive side of the ball.

 

 

See, even you acknowledge it.

The Tampa 2 staffed and coached effectively is a BEAST of a defense.

I think you're probably just allowing the specific circumstances that occured here to cloud your perspective.

[CR91]

this isnt something new. running qbs have always been in the nfl. i think what would be most effective is to have a spy on him every single down like what we use to do with vince young. we'd have sanders follow him every where he went.

[PrincetonTiger]

Scheme is not the answer but discipline is

[Gavin]

Are you guys' serious?..."new breed"?Where do these "new breed qb's" end-up?The 'IR'.We've always had these type of players(most do not survive long enough to be remembered).Its only a matter of time before wilson/catnip suffer the same fate as RG3.The smart ones(actually,just one>mcnair),evolve to become pocket passers,that ocasionally run/scramble for extra time.

Wilson is a pocket passer who happens to be athletic enough to where he can scramble, he is not a running QB but a QB that can run 

[Balzer40]

Not being a fan of something and trying to promote the silly notion that a defense is somehow fundementally ineffective are two different things. The Tampa 2 works fine. Actually works very good.

 

 

 

 

This is the silly notion that I referenced. Every offensive coordinator in the NFL knows how to exploint every defense in the NFL. So that is not an issue. The issue(s) are (for all defenses) talent and game day play callling.

 

 

 

 

No. Elite talent is not needed. Talent is. Regardless, all defenses have key requirements at certain positions. Not filling out those positions with talent will doom any defense. This is a general rule that applies across the board and the Tampa 2 does not have the market cornered in this respect.

 

 

 

 

See, even you acknowledge it.

The Tampa 2 staffed and coached effectively is a BEAST of a defense.

I think you're probably just allowing the specific circumstances that occured here to cloud your perspective.

 

 

 

You are probably right to an extent. I have definitely got hard feelings about the Tampa 2 from the pathetic display of it we ran here for yrs.. I will however stick with my belief that offensive coaches have figured out how to easily exploit it, more so than some of the other defensive schemes in football.

 

 

Here is an article that kind of explains why I think the Tampa 2 is a played out defensive scheme.

 

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2012/8/13/3240146/is-the-tampa-2-going-the-way-of-the-wing-t

 

Here is just an excerpt.

 

 

 

The cover-two defense as we know it could be on the road to becoming obsolete. Polian got into a fascinating exchange with Tampa Bay free safety Ronde Barber about this topic. Barber is entering his 15th NFL season playing in the acclaimed "Tampa-2," a scheme predicated upon the strong safety disrupting receivers who are funneled toward the middle of the field by cornerbacks playing zone coverage on the outside. Many of the bone-jarring safety hits once allowed are now banned as the NFL has instituted rules to better protect pass catchers. That has Polian, whose Colts used that system from 2002 through 2011 after Tony Dungy was hired as head coach, questioning whether it can be used effectively in today's NFL. Said Barber: "Our theory was all these guys got to the ball and intimidation was a physical act. It was, 'Get guys to run through zones. We'll shoot our guns and separate them from the ball.' The rules will definitely affect it ... I know we don't play cover-two now the way we used to."

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Balzer 40, anyone would have a bad taste in their mouth after seeing how the Colts defense performed on the field. But someone who clearly understands Polian's ineffective administration of it's personnel should know better. As for the rules changes vis-a-vis protecting receivers, they affect everyone. And they did not hinder the Chicago Bears from effectively deploying the Tampa 2 at all.

[RGIII]

I'd like to hear a more coherent X's and O's explanation of why the 4-3 (and especially the Tampa 2 specifically) would be advantageous in the current landscape of the NFL.  I'm simply not seeing where that advantage lies.

 

this isnt something new. running qbs have always been in the nfl. i think what would be most effective is to have a spy on him every single down like what we use to do with vince young. we'd have sanders follow him every where he went.

 

The game has changed a little bit now that we've got QBs with sub-4.6 speed who can actually throw a football with some consistency unlike Tebow, Young, and Vick.  Most linebackers can't keep up with this latest batch of mobile QBs.  If you put a safety up to the task, you're going to have to play single high which leaves you vulnerable to the deep ball (which Wilson, Kaep, and Griffin all excel at) and that safety still probably will not be quick enough to catch these guys before they pick up solid yardage.

 

I know for a fact that the Redskins WANT you to spy RGIII.  They want you to devote as many players and as much attention as possible to the possibility that Griffin will take off with the ball on any given play.  They want that because they know that if you worry too much about Griffin's feet he won't actually have to run.  You won't be able to defend against his arm and you won't be able to defend against Alfred Morris if you're focused on his feet.  That is the ideal scenario for the Redskins.

 

Are you guys' serious?..."new breed"?Where do these "new breed qb's" end-up?The 'IR'.We've always had these type of players(most do not survive long enough to be remembered).Its only a matter of time before wilson/catnip suffer the same fate as RG3.The smart ones(actually,just one>mcnair),evolve to become pocket passers,that ocasionally run/scramble for extra time.

 

This is probably the first time I've seen anyone express real concern over the long-term viability of Wilson and Kaepernick.  Always thought it was funny that they seem to get a pass in that respect from most people.

[NewColtsFan]

Because GMs in the NFC East & West are brilliant, right?

 

I'm pretty confident I don't understand your answer....   in fact, I know I don't....

 

But, out of the 8 teams in those 2 divisions, I'd say half have very good GM's/Front offices.

 

New York and Philly in the East.

San Francisco and Seattle in the West

 

The rest....  well...  not so much....

[betheafan41]

Spot on (with a caveat, I do not think you need CBs better than what we had to run it)!!

 

For some still unexplained reason (which intrigues me most about the Polian years), he and his son REFUSED to aquire the talent needed to run the Defense that we had. And the talent was out there to be had.

 

Never did and never will understand it.

they were more focused on offense. since peyton manning was drafted in 98' the colts drafted 7 offensive players compared to the 4 on defense. in the first round each year. twice they didnt have a first round pick. during the polian years although he did do good in getting guys like brackett, freeney, mathis, bethea etc. he was more focused on getting weapons for manning instead of making major improvements on defense. the defense was built to protect leads. 

[Balzer40]

they were more focused on offense. since peyton manning was drafted in 98' the colts drafted 7 offensive players compared to the 4 on defense. in the first round each year. twice they didnt have a first round pick. during the polian years although he did do good in getting guys like brackett, freeney, mathis, bethea etc. he was more focused on getting weapons for manning instead of making major improvements on defense. the defense was built to protect leads. 

 

 

 

From the looks of many of the posts here on this forum, it looks like many fans are still stuck with the same mindset of the Polian yrs.. So many want to waste money on high dollar WR's instead of spending that money wisely and fix the O-line and upgrade the defense. I sincerely hope that WR and RB are the very last positions on Grigson's mind this offseason and I truly believe they are. 

[HarassedOffTheSite]

they were more focused on offense. since peyton manning was drafted in 98' the colts drafted 7 offensive players compared to the 4 on defense. in the first round each year. twice they didnt have a first round pick. during the polian years although he did do good in getting guys like brackett, freeney, mathis, bethea etc. he was more focused on getting weapons for manning instead of making major improvements on defense. the defense was built to protect leads. 

 

That is not an acceptable reason for me....I just don't believe that is the case. There is no way a 5 time GM of the year could develope a blind spot regarding defense. It had to be either their evaluation process being flawed, or arrogance, financial constraints etc, etc.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

From the looks of many of the posts here on this forum, it looks like many fans are still stuck with the same mindset of the Polian yrs.. So many want to waste money on high dollar WR's instead of spending that money wisely and fix the O-line and upgrade the defense. I sincerely hope that WR and RB are the very last positions on Grigson's mind this offseason and I truly believe they are. 

 

Amen Brother!

 

Right now I'd blow every dime/draft pick we have on Oline and Dline.

[#12]

Once a few more read/option QBs are injured or Griffin's career ends prematurely, you will see less of it.  Regardless of what type of play Griffin was initially injured on, if you deliberately expose your QB to that many additional hits each game, it's just a matter of time.  Also, you have to look at the teams who are winning with it.  Kaepernick and Wilson had nice games this weekend, but overall, the 49ers and Seahawks aren't winning because of their QBs.  If you play that style over a 16 game season with a mediocre defense and running game, I'm not sure how successful you would be.  So, it's not as though every team could run it and be successful.  If you have a dominant defense and running game... and top-notch special teams, just about anything works from the QB position. 

[#12]

Also, in the spread-option crazy NCAA, it's Alabama with their 3-4 and pro-style offense who wins the championship every year. 

[NewEra]

is the same crap they were saying about the wildcat. defences will have an answer next year.

[NewEra]

you make that qb pay for running the play plain and simple, whether he hilds the ball or pitches. you destroy him and leave his lifeless body laying on the field!! BOOM!

[Balzer40]

is the same crap they were saying about the wildcat. defences will have an answer next year.

 

 

Totally agree. The read option is just another passing fad in the NFL. Defensive coordinators are already working on a way to eradicate it and by the time the season starts they will have.

[BrentMc11]

Any Defense can stop any QB. You have to be Disciplined. Look at how the Bengals beat up RG3 when they played. All you have to do is know your assignment & execute

Precisely!  How many times did we talk about CONTAIN when we were getting obliterated to the outside by the Chiefs?

 

How many times did we mention CONTAIN responsibilities in the Cover 2? (Tampa 2)

 

As you accurately state, CONTAIN has been a priority of a defensive unit since day 1 of American football as we know it......and will always be regardless who runs the ball......QB, RB......or that pesky ER on the end around  Good post !!!  The key word her is_________ (CONTAIN)

 

For the record, the lax Cover Nobody defense played by Larry Coyer is DEAD!!!!!  The Cover 2 is not......YET     

Edited January 14, 2013 by BrentMc11