Freeman Taunting Call

[dw49]

There's an almost poetic beauty to the images of what Freeman is doing and the score-box juxtaposed just above the images. 

 

You should be given a million likes for taking the time to illustrate the profundity of Freeman's "mistake" so clearly. Maybe those defending him can take a moment for pause. 

 

 

My point was that I've seen similar not called. The whole rule is way too subjective. Also there is nothing I saw looking at this rule that says it's "automatic" if the player is standing over the other player. It mentions players going to the ground in celebration.

 

The above pictures do not change my mind on this. Because there are 3 captions doesn't depict the fact that he was taunting "too long' as some infer. While I never said this was not a violation of the taunting rule , I question if there are not numerous similar instances that go without a flag. I pointed out that Gronkowski is pretty much always stretching the taunting rule and Ive never seen him called. 

[dw49]

Hate to say it but this is a microcosm of our society and how they look at authority in uniform. The ref made the right call by enforcing the rules of the game and is criticized for it. Kind of like our police forces around the country?

 

 

No ... it's not what's wrong with society. It's just the fact that the taunting rule is way too subjective and you'll always have very similar acts on the field that draw flags and don't draw flags. That was a huge situation in that game and I thought it could have been over looked. Because I view differently than you doesn't make me what's wrong about the country. BTW... some of these acts by police are way way out of line.

[ColtStronger]

Yes, we all know rules are rules!  We get that!  You can't argue with it.  However, I do like to argue so that was crap because, if you call it for one then you call everybody the same way.  Doesn't matter if its the same player same team same game same season.  I didn't watch anybody else taunt that game so I don't have a reference point but, most penalties aren't called how they ALWAYS should be.  That play would have made us get the ball back immediately, but instead it allowed Dallas to march down the field and put up 7 on the opening drive.  Who knows how the game turns out.  My guess is Colts still lose, but 1 play CAN have a dramatic effect on a game.

 

Walden got ejected earlier this season for "touching the ref" and Bengals TE was right by the ref taunting him... NO CALL?  I've seen a player shoulder bump a ref real hard because he was mad at a bad call and just continued walking.  NO EJECTION?  This is the problem I have with officials.  They are very inconsistent!  I realize it's different referees making different calls, but I think the NFL should just be reasonable and lienient when it comes to dumb penalties.  If it's an excessive taunt, with a player in another players face then YES throw a flag.  How do lineman get away with it after every sack, or DB's when they make a hard hit?  They're celebrating!  I remember Manziel got sacked by a Bills player and they did the money sign.  Is that not taunting Manziel?  There are certain rules in the game that shouldn't be enforced unless it really goes too far.  My whole point Freeman didn't go too far!

[ColtsBlueFL]

I think the guy was hyped up to play in this big game, and he made a huge play, and he talked some smack. Honestly, if it weren't against the rules, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm a streetballer, we talk smack, we take smack talk, and we live on. Freeman should have known that he would be flagged, and that's why I was upset with it.

As for coaching, see above. You spend a week talking to guys about making plays and get them all fired up, and the guy with a ton of testosterone surging through his body does something a little over the top... I don't think that's coaching. Everyone else on the defense knew that he was over the line, suggesting that the coaches have discussed this kind of stuff often enough. He just lost control for a couple seconds.

That's why I said that I think ruksak is a little overboard. Stupid, stupid decision by Freeman, and it cost his team dearly (I think it changed the game). But you don't send a guy to the showers over it. At that point, it makes no difference.

What you do is you show the play and the flag a hundred times during film study this week to drive the point home.

 

It shows lack of discipline.  The coaches are in charge of setting the boundaries.  I may have to go back an see how many of Tony Dungy's, or Lovie Smith's D's got unsportsmanlike penalties.  Compared to ours the last couple seasons.

 

In racing there is a saying- You can not win the race on the first lap.  But you sure as heck can lose it.  I kind of felt that way in the Dallas game to small degree.

 

On top of that, we all know the league is all about respect now too, and that was the opposite.  That's why flags ill come out more often on those types of plays.

 

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/03/24/roger-goodell-emphasizes-respect-open-annual-nfl-owners-meeting/

[ruksak]

who says what you think is for the greater good of the team actually IS for the greater good of the team?

My opinion? That's what we're doing here, right? 

[amfootball]

My point was that I've seen similar not called. The whole rule is way too subjective. Also there is nothing I saw looking at this rule that says it's "automatic" if the player is standing over the other player. It mentions players going to the ground in celebration.

 

The above pictures do not change my mind on this. Because there are 3 captions doesn't depict the fact that he was taunting "too long' as some infer. While I never said this was not a violation of the taunting rule , I question if there are not numerous similar instances that go without a flag. I pointed out that Gronkowski is pretty much always stretching the taunting rule and Ive never seen him called. 

You keep missing the obvious. You did not hear what was said, the refs did. There are certain words/phrases that cannot be said without a penalty.

[-JJ-]

Another mistake by Pagano, if you ask me. 

 

This exact same thing just happened a few weeks ago with Vontae Davis. Can't remember who he was defending or who we were playing (someone help me here), but he successfully defended an endzone pass and then stood over his man mocking him, erasing his good effort and granting a first down to our opponent. 

 

Pagano didn't have the stones to send Freeman to the locker room. This kind of garbage will continue unabated, because our coach didn't send the message. We ended up losing by 35 points, we're headed into the postseason, and he allowed Freeman to get away with this garbage, a mistake that started the snowball rolling. 

 

.

As for the refs; I will NEVER fault the refs for calling a penalty on a clear infraction of the rules. I'm not going to sit here like a child and whine about what was and wasn't called on the other team. Freeman CLEARLY broke a rule, one that is excessively easy to obey. 

Spot on. I don't care if I have a losing team as much as an undisciplined team and that's on coaching all the way! . When BB came to NE despite all the winning he brought something lacking for a long time- discipline. Heck you're on sport illustrated one week (Gray) and benched the next for late to a meeting

[ruksak]

You keep missing the obvious. You did not hear what was said, the refs did. There are certain words/phrases that cannot be said without a penalty.

I'm having images of the Walden incident from earlier this year. Which was yet another flagrant display of this teams lack of discipline. He was ejected for touching a ref, and many people here thought it was inappropriate for him to be ejected. I said exactly the same thing as you. We don't know what was said, and Walden most certainly said something. 

 

This is at least three times now that I can cite a loss of self control resulting in a devastating penalty this year, in 15 games. That's an average of once per 5 games a Colts player is hurting his team with an uncontrolled display of emotion. 

 

....and people wonder why some of us are now looking toward Pagano, the leader of this team, for answers as to why and how this team is so reckless. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

My point was that I've seen similar not called. The whole rule is way too subjective. Also there is nothing I saw looking at this rule that says it's "automatic" if the player is standing over the other player. It mentions players going to the ground in celebration.

 

The above pictures do not change my mind on this. Because there are 3 captions doesn't depict the fact that he was taunting "too long' as some infer. While I never said this was not a violation of the taunting rule , I question if there are not numerous similar instances that go without a flag. I pointed out that Gronkowski is pretty much always stretching the taunting rule and Ive never seen him called. 

 

That is the power and discretion the League has trained and given to the officials.  The rule is broad so it can be applied when Ref feels "ill will' could be created.

 

 

Also, Antonio Brown has been flagged 3 times for taunting, and fined!  Sherman has been flagged, and fined!  I would not be surprised Freeman gets a 7 - 10 thousand dollar fine  letter via FedEx tomorrow.  Fans want Refs to call less and less while the league is asking for more and more.  They are even considering taking Unsportsmanlike during a play from a dead ball after the play penalty to one that can nullify the play.  Thus Antonio Brown's TD would be taken away too!  (haven't done it yet, but they are looking in to it)

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9903854/dean-blandino-nfl-mull-taunting-rule-tweak

 

http://triblive.com/sports/2888994-85/brown-conduct-penalty-steelers-unsportsmanlike-fined-kaboly-mark-taunting-third#axzz3Memftb3j

[superrep1967]

It was the right call. End of story

Yeah right call..But stupid by Freeman to do it. 

[MR. Blueblood]

You keep missing the obvious. You did not hear what was said, the refs did. There are certain words/phrases that cannot be said without a penalty.

To me, it's not about what he said.  It's about standing over your opponent, staring down at him, swinging your arms, and flapping your gums.  

 

Point blank, you can't do that and he got the penalty.  I think he could've been telling him Merry Christmas and still got the flag with all the extra garbage he was doing.

[IndyD4U]

Yeah right call..But stupid by Freeman to do it. 

 

 Without a doubt stupid and undisciplined. 

[dw49]

You keep missing the obvious. You did not hear what was said, the refs did. There are certain words/phrases that cannot be said without a penalty.

 

 

Not missing the "obvious." How do you know that the Official that threw the flag heard what he said ? I did acknowledge in another thread to you that it was a possibility . All I said it it appeared to be no outrageous taunting act and brought it up that this rule is way too subjective.

[krunk]

The NFL doesn't want to present that image. One of a gaggle of on-edge punks. 

 

Think of it with this perspective; Would people be more likely to speed if the penalty for speeding was a $15 fine? 

 

Since when has the NFL been scared of trash talking? They've been letting that go on for years, and I can see

with certain types of things, but what Freeman did was nothing.   5 yards is enough for that type of thing, there

was worse that went on during the game that was not even called.

[ruksak]

Not missing the "obvious." How do you know that the Official that threw the flag heard what he said ? I did acknowledge in another thread to you that it was a possibility . All I said it it appeared to be no outrageous taunting act and brought it up that this rule is way too subjective.

It *could be subjective. But this infraction was as blatant as they come. 

 

What Freeman did WAS outrageous, and many of us already exclaimed that we knew the penalty was coming while other fans were busy celebrating the hit. I even provided proof from the gameday thread, that I was immediately aware of what was up, while others were high-fiving the hit. 

 

Would you like to see the link again? it's right there in black and white.

[dw49]

That is the power and discretion the League has trained and given to the officials.  The rule is broad so it can be applied when Ref feels "ill will' could be created.

 

 

Also, Antonio Brown has been flagged 3 times for taunting, and fined!  Sherman has been flagged, and fined!  I would not be surprised Freeman gets a 7 - 10 thousand dollar fine  letter via FedEx tomorrow.  Fans want Refs to call less and less while the league is asking for more and more.  They are even considering taking Unsportsmanlike during a play from a dead ball after the play penalty to one that can nullify the play.  Thus Antonio Brown's TD would be taken away too!  (haven't done it yet, but they are looking in to it)

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9903854/dean-blandino-nfl-mull-taunting-rule-tweak

 

http://triblive.com/sports/2888994-85/brown-conduct-penalty-steelers-unsportsmanlike-fined-kaboly-mark-taunting-third#axzz3Memftb3j

 

 

Yes , I read all that hours ago and have acknowledged in two different threads that there officials (or official) was acting within the rules set forth when he threw the flag. So for you to post the above , you should cite where I ever said this was not an infraction that was not within the rules as they are laid out. What I said is this rule is way too subjective and I have seen many (THAT APPEAR, Ok... with that AM ?) such similar that go uncalled. Just like you , I have not seen every play of every game. I do have DTV and watch solid football all day long ... so I've seen a few. Just my opinion that it was not that egregious . But unlike many here , including you , I can understand those that see it differently than I. 

[superrep1967]

 Without a doubt stupid and undisciplined. 

We had them stopped on the first drive. It might have been a different game if it wasn't for the taunting. . 

[Happy2BeHere]

It was the fact that he was looking down at him talking crap and his "body language" directed at the player on the ground...it was a reasonable call IMO...Freeman would have been well fine to do it as long as he wasn't staring down the guy laying on the field...it's stupid he did it. Most guys (as I've seen it) do it when they player is upright and not somewhat staring down on them...that's the reason the flag was thrown IMO

[dw49]

It *could be subjective. But this infraction was as blatant as they come. 

 

What Freeman did WAS outrageous, and many of us already exclaimed that we knew the penalty was coming while other fans were busy celebrating the hit. I even provided proof from the gameday thread, that I was immediately aware of what was up, while others were high-fiving the hit. 

 

Would you like to see the link again? it's right there in black and white.

 

 

Not necessary ... unless you have time frames to show how long he was standing over him. I saw the play and in my opinion I've seen as bad that wasn't called. If that bothers you .. what can I say. Anyone that reads the rule , can see it's very subjective and pretty much left up to the official's discretion. You say yes .. .. Fine .. we all hear you.

[jskinnz]

I will say this...the refs were sure quick to flag the Colts yesterday

 

Mainly because they kept committing penalties.

[Cynjin]

That is the power and discretion the League has trained and given to the officials.  The rule is broad so it can be applied when Ref feels "ill will' could be created.

 

 

Also, Antonio Brown has been flagged 3 times for taunting, and fined!  Sherman has been flagged, and fined!  I would not be surprised Freeman gets a 7 - 10 thousand dollar fine  letter via FedEx tomorrow.  Fans want Refs to call less and less while the league is asking for more and more.  They are even considering taking Unsportsmanlike during a play from a dead ball after the play penalty to one that can nullify the play.  Thus Antonio Brown's TD would be taken away too!  (haven't done it yet, but they are looking in to it)

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9903854/dean-blandino-nfl-mull-taunting-rule-tweak

 

http://triblive.com/sports/2888994-85/brown-conduct-penalty-steelers-unsportsmanlike-fined-kaboly-mark-taunting-third#axzz3Memftb3j

 

If they enforced rule © under taunting, "The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams."   They might as well call taunting on every play.

[Superfly Jay]

There is no way you can justify that flag. And I'm not just saying that because Freeman is on the Colts. There are too many soft people on here talking talking that ying yang. Back to my point, the taunting penalty should be taken out of the game completely. These guys are playing a full contact sport, and you want them to act like mutes. They are just taking away every emotional reaction out of the game. Trash talking comes with the territory, and anyone that has played football knows that. Then you got the damn shiesty refs picking and choosing who they want to flag. The NFL is turning into a joke with these dumb a** rule changes.

[jskinnz]

Don't get me wrong. I think we get beat badly with or without this call. But what the heck was that ? I see Gronk do similar to that on about 70% of his catches. Just curious to how some of you saw it.

 

To me it was unquestionably the right call and a remarkably dumb act by Freeman.  It is a rule that Freeman clearly violated.  Even if you don't agree with the severity of the taunt, I can see no other word to describe what Freeman did.

 

Personally I think your estimate on the % of times that Gronk does this same thing is absurdly high in an attempt to illustrate the point you are trying to prove.  Do you really want to say that every 7 out of 10 times Gronk stands over the player he just trucked and says how he just "lit them up?"  

[jskinnz]

It's football.. Players talk, it's a part of the game. You don't kill a teams momentum by what should of been a 4th and 14 to a 1st and 10. The call killed the entire momentum of the game for us.

 

Dear God...

 

1) The official did not kill the Colts' momentum - Freeman did.  Talking goes on but what Freeman did is the textbook definition of taunting.  

 

2) If the Colts are so small-minded to let that one call do them in, then they are truly a pathetic bunch.  

[dw49]

To me it was unquestionably the right call and a remarkably dumb act by Freeman.  It is a rule that Freeman clearly violated.  Even if you don't agree with the severity of the taunt, I can see no other word to describe what Freeman did.

 

Personally I think your estimate on the % of times that Gronk does this same thing is absurdly high in an attempt to illustrate the point you are trying to prove.  Do you really want to say that every 7 out of 10 times Gronk stands over the player he just trucked and says how he just "lit them up?"  

 

 

Never said he stands over the player. What I said is he is constantly jawing frantically at the player he feels he just beat. Could be I estimated high... shame on me.

[swflacoltsfans]

Yes. That play cost us 35 points and we would have won the game.

[dw49]

Dear God...

 

1) The official did not kill the Colts' momentum - Freeman did.  Talking goes on but what Freeman did is the textbook definition of taunting.  

 

2) If the Colts are so small-minded to let that one call do them in, then they are truly a pathetic bunch.  

 

 

You should really have a little more respect for people that see things differently than you do.  I've seen plenty of your posts that I thought were less than intelligent or stellar and never thought about calling you pathetic. 

[dw49]

Yes. That play cost us 35 points and we would have won the game.

 Not too many people are saying that. phewwww....

[Gavin]

Another mistake by Pagano, if you ask me. 

 

This exact same thing just happened a few weeks ago with Vontae Davis. Can't remember who he was defending or who we were playing (someone help me here), but he successfully defended an endzone pass and then stood over his man mocking him, erasing his good effort and granting a first down to our opponent. 

 

Pagano didn't have the stones to send Freeman to the locker room. This kind of garbage will continue unabated, because our coach didn't send the message. We ended up losing by 35 points, we're headed into the postseason, and he allowed Freeman to get away with this garbage, a mistake that started the snowball rolling. 

 

As for the refs; I will NEVER fault the refs for calling a penalty on a clear infraction of the rules. I'm not going to sit here like a child and whine about what was and wasn't called on the other team. Freeman CLEARLY broke a rule, one that is excessively easy to obey. 

you don't send one of your better players to the locker room just because a player showed excitement on a play, Players jaw all the time in sports, That wont change, What you want to eliminate is the physical altercations that can go with it sometimes but you don't compound a bad decision by a player by following that up with a bad decision by a HC, The rule is a JUDGEMENT call...meaning a ref can pick and choose what he deems "The use of abusive, threatening or insulting language or gestures to opponents, teammates, officials or representatives of the league", Regardless it did not decide the game but it was a bad decision on Freemans part if his language consisted of any of the above

[amfootball]

Not missing the "obvious." How do you know that the Official that threw the flag heard what he said ? I did acknowledge in another thread to you that it was a possibility . All I said it it appeared to be no outrageous taunting act and brought it up that this rule is way too subjective.

I think that is the obvious answer along with the fact that the player stood over him and did it. He was excessive in his taunt. I really don't see it any different than when Manning ran up to Swearinger in the end zone and got up in his grill. They flagged and fined him for that and he is Peyton Manning.

[sfergson727]

No question that taunting is against NFL policy and thus a penalty.  That being said, I've seen far worse examples that did not draw a flag.  That one hurt.

[ruksak]

you don't send one of your better players to the locker room just because a player showed excitement on a play,

Yes, you do. That's at least 3 times that I can count this year that a Colts has done something similar. 

 

We have a playoff invite. If this happens in the post, I directly blame Pagano for a lack of leadership, for failing to make an example out of Freeman. 

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Hate to say it but this is a microcosm of our society and how they look at authority in uniform. The ref made the right call by enforcing the rules of the game and is criticized for it. Kind of like our police forces around the country?

+1

[Gavin]

Yes, you do. That's at least 3 times that I can count this year that a Colts has done something similar. 

 

We have a playoff invite. If this happens in the post, I directly blame Pagano for a lack of leadership, for failing to make an example out of Freeman. 

you don't penalize the team for 1 players bad decision, Using your line of thinking if Vontae Davis was to do that in the playoffs your just asking for a playoff team to obliterate the Colts all because he made 1 bad decision on whats a judgement call by the officials anyway

[Jason_]

Yes, you do. That's at least 3 times that I can count this year that a Colts has done something similar. 

 

We have a playoff invite. If this happens in the post, I directly blame Pagano for a lack of leadership, for failing to make an example out of Freeman. 

 

Pagano can't go out and hold every player's hand during the game.  At some point, the players have to take some responsibility.  The fact that it has only been 3 times and not 10+ should show that the team actually is much more disciplined than you're letting on.

[Jason_]

My opinion? That's what we're doing here, right? 

 

Ok, but you're demanding action, and questioning Pagano's "stones" just because he didn't react the way you wanted him to.  Maybe it's not about his stones but rather the fact that he (and many others) simply disagree with your opinion on how he should have handled the matter.

[ruksak]

you don't penalize the team for 1 players bad decision, Using your line of thinking if Vontae Davis was to do that in the playoffs your just asking for a playoff team to obliterate the Colts all because he made 1 bad decision on whats a judgement call by the officials anyway

It wasn't a playoff game. By any reasonable estimation, this wasn't a meaningful game. My entire intent was to salve this habit BEFORE the playoffs begin, which is why I find your post quite unusual. 

[ruksak]

Pagano can't go out and hold every player's hand during the game.  At some point, the players have to take some responsibility.  The fact that it has only been 3 times and not 10+ should show that the team actually is much more disciplined than you're letting on.

I wasn't asking for hand-holding. I was asking for some butt-kicking. 

[ruksak]

Ok, but you're demanding action, and questioning Pagano's "stones" just because he didn't react the way you wanted him to.  Maybe it's not about his stones but rather the fact that he (and many others) simply disagree with your opinion on how he should have handled the matter.

I'm not the one gonna be standing in the unemployment line next year. 

[Gavin]

It wasn't a playoff game. By any reasonable estimation, this wasn't a meaningful game. My entire intent was to salve this habit BEFORE the playoffs begin, which is why I find your post quite unusual. 

I agree with taking action to thwart the habit but your still asking for trouble as a HC and team if you take away a good player in such a short season no matter if it late in the season or early