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All-22 on AR


CR91

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I do think the break down itself is solid and doomers should watch it. Pittman and ogletree should have caught the passes. Mitchell needs a little more route refining but that’s a part of being a rookie. I am excited to see Downs back on the field with the chemistry they have.

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5 hours ago, PackersNation said:

How amusing that you think you can speak for and know what everyone here has done in the game in their lives. I played in the MAC and coached high school and college football for over a decade after that. 

 

You seemed to take his comment as a personal affront. It is not personal. He did not write that you did not know football. He wrote that Chase Daniel knows more football than "most of us combined". He did not write "all of us combined".

 

My opinion on this: Just because someone was not successful at playing football does not mean that they do not know football or cannot assess/evaluate a football player's performance. Most great coaches are not in the Hall of Fame for their football prowess. I cannot think of many coaches that had great stats playing football.

 

13 hours ago, CR91 said:

J.T O'Sullivan does it too and a lot of people consider him one of the best on social media.

 

I appreciate JT O'Sullivan's work. He too was not very successful in the NFL but his football breakdowns are detailed and well done. He clearly knows his stuff. He was very impressed with Richardson last year.

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16 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:


Shane Steichen threw for zero yards in the NFL. What's your point again?

 

You assume he wants to be a quarterback coach in the NFL. lol. He made $42 million in his career. I think he's probably just fine with building an online presence and chilling watching/breaking down football. 


BOOM!!   This is a Mic Drop post!!

 

And you read my mind exactly the same.  Was going to point out both the Steichen point AND the Daniel lifestyle choice.  
 

Mad Props to you!   :scoregood:    :worthy:

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27 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

Let's move on. Let's talk about the content of the video. Thanks.

 

@Patrick Miller  Did you watch that video? What do you think of what Chase Daniel had to say?


I’ll tell you what I thought - it was fascinating in-depth insight that we hardly ever get from any shows.  I really appreciate @CR91 posting it.  
 

There’s a big difference from just watching the All-22 and having someone with knowledge and experience explain it.

 

He made me feel so much better about AR’s performance.  I just hope he and the receivers are on the same page come game one.  

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19 hours ago, CR91 said:

 


I am good with saying that int is not all on AR, but claiming he’s faultless? 
 

I would disagree. Threw it right to a DB sitting on it. Granson is at fault too, but that was a bad pass. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, shasta519 said:


I am good with saying that int is not all on AR, but claiming he’s faultless? 
 

I would disagree. Threw it right to a DB sitting on it. Granson is at fault too, but that was a bad pass. 

 

 

 

It's not a bad pass if he's expecting Granson to sit at that spot. The problem with option routes are if the QB and the target aren't on the same page, the result is what you see there

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3 minutes ago, shasta519 said:


I am good with saying that int is not all on AR, but claiming he’s faultless? 
 

I would disagree. Threw it right to a DB sitting on it. Granson is at fault too, but that was a bad pass. 

 

 

 

If you watch the video, AR throws it to the spot where Granson is supposed to be sitting - just as Granson makes a move to the outside.  So, as far as accuracy, it's really hard to pin it on AR.  He may have been 100% accurate.  We really don't know.

 

We just hope they both learned something.  As Shane said - teaching moment.

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2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

Let's move on. Let's talk about the content of the video. Thanks.

 

@Patrick Miller  Did you watch that video? What do you think of what Chase Daniel had to say?

What a coincidence I just watched this on YouTube about an hour ago! I found it pretty encouraging. I really hope AR pans out… heck, I picked him in one of my fantasy football leagues as my starting quarterback! Lol! It will be interesting to see where he’s at by the end of the season.

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17 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

If you watch the video, AR throws it to the spot where Granson is supposed to be sitting - just as Granson makes a move to the outside.  So, as far as accuracy, it's really hard to pin it on AR.  He may have been 100% accurate.  We really don't know.

 

We just hope they both learned something.  As Shane said - teaching moment.

 

  Fun getting to watch the routes in all -22 and getting good instruction on route yardage depths.

  Daniel's teaches how receivers are taught. Granson broke the rule.

100% on Granson screwing up a Perfect through.

 Shasta can't comprehend this basic lesson, and a basic example of why he has been on Ignore for some time. 

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22 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

If you watch the video, AR throws it to the spot where Granson is supposed to be sitting - just as Granson makes a move to the outside.  So, as far as accuracy, it's really hard to pin it on AR.  He may have been 100% accurate.  We really don't know.

 

We just hope they both learned something.  As Shane said - teaching moment.

 

I feel like one of two things happened there. Either Granson was supposed to run a pivot route, and Richardson messed up. Or he had an option route, and he should have turned outside if he was going outside, which means he messed up. I think that's most likely. 

 

A third but unlikely option is that the Colts teach a version of that play that has the receiver turn in, then pivot out. But combined with the route from the outside receiver, I don't think that's likely. 

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On 8/24/2024 at 1:41 PM, shasta519 said:


I am good with saying that int is not all on AR, but claiming he’s faultless? 
 

I would disagree. Threw it right to a DB sitting on it. Granson is at fault too, but that was a bad pass. 

 

 

i think we may see allot of INT's this season.  Hopefully a lot of TD's to offset them.

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I feel like one of two things happened there. Either Granson was supposed to run a pivot route, and Richardson messed up. Or he had an option route, and he should have turned outside if he was going outside, which means he messed up. I think that's most likely. 

 

A third but unlikely option is that the Colts teach a version of that play that has the receiver turn in, then pivot out. But combined with the route from the outside receiver, I don't think that's likely. 

IMO, Granson ran the wrong route because AR threw the ball right to the defender, thinking Granson would be there. Just like I still think today, Reggie ran a poor lazy route in SB 44 when Peyton got Picked 6. Had Reggie cut in a second earlier like he should have, he would have been in front of Porter and caught the ball like Peyton was thinking. He ran a foot too long which was strange because they ran that play all year and it rarely failed. 

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3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO, Granson ran the wrong route because AR threw the ball right to the defender, thinking Granson would be there. Just like I still think today, Reggie ran a poor lazy route in SB 44 when Peyton got Picked 6. Had Reggie cut in a second earlier like he should have, he would have been in front of Porter and caught the ball like Peyton was thinking. He ran a foot too long which was strange because they ran that play all year and it rarely failed. 

 

I'm 99% sure that's correct. Richardson starts throwing the ball before Granson starts outside. I think he ran the wrong route, or ran it the wrong way. And saying that it's entirely on Granson seems accurate. Miscommunications happen, especially with new QBs. They'll get that corrected in the film room. 

 

Richardson had other accuracy issues in this game. The INT wasn't one of them. 

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I’m fine with AR not being the best passer in the league (or ever becoming that), because I think his running will off-set a lot of his short-comings as a passer. 
 

I believe this is something Colts fans will have to learn to deal with. 

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48 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I’m fine with AR not being the best passer in the league (or ever becoming that), because I think his running will off-set a lot of his short-comings as a passer. 
 

I believe this is something Colts fans will have to learn to deal with. 

 

I don't think any of Richardson's passing issues are impossible to fix. In fact, I think his biggest problem is timing, and as he gets better at anticipating, the issues with mechanics that he's had will be minimized. He can do things that other QBs can't even imagine trying, and they makes him willing to try things that he probably shouldn't. If he gets enough reps, I think that will work itself out. 

 

Like you said, maybe never the best passer in the league, but he can be more than good enough. Josh Allen is the easy comp. He still gets sloppy with his technique and it costs him at times, but he's incredibly dangerous as a passer. 

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In my opinion, if AR fails to meet expectations in his career, it will be because of injury (or injuries building up) affecting his physical ability not because of anything above the shoulders, work ethic, physical ability to play QB at the NFL level. 

 

I have felt since the Colts organization drafted him, they had a very crucial decision to make on how they were going scheme/use him especially early in career.  On the one hand, there is the low hanging fruit of running a read option heavy, QB functioning as a 2nd RB type scheme that we have seen lead to an effective offense such as Washington RGIII rookie year, SF with Kaepernick, Balt with Lamar Jackson, etc.  The problem is I am convinced this will eventually lead to a pounding, injuries, etc on AR that will limit his availability or ultimately create a very short window of elite QB play as was seen in Carolina with Cam Newton that makes it difficult for a franchise to capitalize and translate into a championship. 

 

The other option is to develop his ability as a pocket passer who has the combination of athletic ability/explosiveness to move in and out of the pocket with the arm talent to make big plays even when the defense has the upper hand schematically which is a combination that very few in the league possess.  

 

The latter option may lead ups and downs early on like we saw on Thursday against Bengals and may also lead to less W's early on than the first option.  However, if the organization works through it and trusts Steichen's ability to develop and work with AR, the payoff could be a long window of contention for a extended period of time. 

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8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO, Granson ran the wrong route because AR threw the ball right to the defender, thinking Granson would be there. Just like I still think today, Reggie ran a poor lazy route in SB 44 when Peyton got Picked 6. Had Reggie cut in a second earlier like he should have, he would have been in front of Porter and caught the ball like Peyton was thinking. He ran a foot too long which was strange because they ran that play all year and it rarely failed. 

If I recall correctly, Reggie was playing on a sprained ankle in that game. That explained him being a second slower in that game, IMO. I told my Wife that at the time, at least…

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4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think any of Richardson's passing issues are impossible to fix. In fact, I think his biggest problem is timing, and as he gets better at anticipating, the issues with mechanics that he's had will be minimized. He can do things that other QBs can't even imagine trying, and they makes him willing to try things that he probably shouldn't. If he gets enough reps, I think that will work itself out. 

 

Like you said, maybe never the best passer in the league, but he can be more than good enough. Josh Allen is the easy comp. He still gets sloppy with his technique and it costs him at times, but he's incredibly dangerous as a passer. 

He definitely has the traits. Hopefully the rest comes with experience. 

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4 hours ago, SR711 said:

In my opinion, if AR fails to meet expectations in his career, it will be because of injury (or injuries building up) affecting his physical ability not because of anything above the shoulders, work ethic, physical ability to play QB at the NFL level. 

 

I have felt since the Colts organization drafted him, they had a very crucial decision to make on how they were going scheme/use him especially early in career.  On the one hand, there is the low hanging fruit of running a read option heavy, QB functioning as a 2nd RB type scheme that we have seen lead to an effective offense such as Washington RGIII rookie year, SF with Kaepernick, Balt with Lamar Jackson, etc.  The problem is I am convinced this will eventually lead to a pounding, injuries, etc on AR that will limit his availability or ultimately create a very short window of elite QB play as was seen in Carolina with Cam Newton that makes it difficult for a franchise to capitalize and translate into a championship. 

 

The other option is to develop his ability as a pocket passer who has the combination of athletic ability/explosiveness to move in and out of the pocket with the arm talent to make big plays even when the defense has the upper hand schematically which is a combination that very few in the league possess.  

 

The latter option may lead ups and downs early on like we saw on Thursday against Bengals and may also lead to less W's early on than the first option.  However, if the organization works through it and trusts Steichen's ability to develop and work with AR, the payoff could be a long window of contention for a extended period of time. 

He runs 4.3/4.4. They are always going to run him situationally speaking. That's just always going to be a part of his game. If you watch how Steichen and Cooter design his runs they don't really lead him into direct hits per se, but when a defender breaks through or theres a small gap where not much can be gained AR just needs to learn to slide and not force things too much. I didn't notice us doing too many QB runs with him. We do them here and there. One or two of the injuries or shakeups were on passes where no one was open and he chose to run for the purpose of forcing things to pick up a first down.  This guy will always be a running QB. Just needs to learn how to run without taking big hits.  Russel Wilson in his career for example I do not recall taking big hits, but he ran all the time. The QB in Philly I don't see taking many big hits either. He does and will do his fair share of pocket passing in his career, but I'm not holding my breath on them making him a complete pocket passer.

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On 8/23/2024 at 3:18 PM, PackersNation said:

Chase Daniel passed for 1,700 yards in 13 years.

 

Get a bit of a laugh every time people act like what this cat says means anything. If he had any clue someone would hire him as a QB coach.

 

Yes, he got to the NFL(bravo) but one of the worst QBs I ever saw play in the NFL. 

 

"Zero debate AR is QB1 in Indy"

 

Thanks captain obvious.

I mean back up QBs often make the best coaches!! 

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14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm 99% sure that's correct. Richardson starts throwing the ball before Granson starts outside. I think he ran the wrong route, or ran it the wrong way. And saying that it's entirely on Granson seems accurate. Miscommunications happen, especially with new QBs. They'll get that corrected in the film room. 

 

Richardson had other accuracy issues in this game. The INT wasn't one of them. 

Yep... agreed. I'm no route expert or QB play expert but from what I'm reading/hearing from people who have played the position they say he either ran the wrong route(he had to just sit once he turned) or if he was running the out route he completely botched it by opening to the inside and then floating out. IMO the first is more likely, because the second just looks really weird and uncharacteristic and it requires mistakes from both AR and Granson on the same play. 

 

Agreed on the miscommunication part - that's why we needed to give that starting unit some reps - iron out some things, get some teaching tape in a meaningless game, rather than having to teach it after a home loss opener. 

 

I think the two biggest mistakes by AR in this game were the throw to Mitchell on the long crosser where he ended up wide open and AR overthrew him(accuracy, sailing the ball - those are old concerns and need to get better) and the second one was the strip sack(ball security, seemed more careless than anything else). IMO the rest were all plays within reason. 

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19 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yep... agreed. I'm no route expert or QB play expert but from what I'm reading/hearing from people who have played the position they say he either ran the wrong route(he had to just sit once he turned) or if he was running the out route he completely botched it by opening to the inside and then floating out. IMO the first is more likely, because the second just looks really weird and uncharacteristic and it requires mistakes from both AR and Granson on the same play. 

 

Agreed on the miscommunication part - that's why we needed to give that starting unit some reps - iron out some things, get some teaching tape in a meaningless game, rather than having to teach it after a home loss opener. 

 

I think the two biggest mistakes by AR in this game were the throw to Mitchell on the long crosser where he ended up wide open and AR overthrew him(accuracy, sailing the ball - those are old concerns and need to get better) and the second one was the strip sack(ball security, seemed more careless than anything else). IMO the rest were all plays within reason. 

 

 So I listened to Chase Daniel.

 His knowledge of the game said that the route Mitchell ran should have been 18 yards in man coverage or 22 in zone. Why would he think this?

 Can we trust that his many years in the league, under a variety of coaches, that this is just a common concept?

 Mitchell cut it off at 14 yards. Perhaps this was another excellent throw.

 AR started the game with quick thinking, throwing highly accurate zingers.

He is ready. Figure the 1st half+ of the season our receiving core sharpens their route running so they become highly trusted, then we will become an offensive juggernaut. lol

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6 hours ago, krunk said:

He runs 4.3/4.4. They are always going to run him situationally speaking. That's just always going to be a part of his game. If you watch how Steichen and Cooter design his runs they don't really lead him into direct hits per se, but when a defender breaks through or theres a small gap where not much can be gained AR just needs to learn to slide and not force things too much. I didn't notice us doing too many QB runs with him. We do them here and there. One or two of the injuries or shakeups were on passes where no one was open and he chose to run for the purpose of forcing things to pick up a first down.  This guy will always be a running QB. Just needs to learn how to run without taking big hits.  Russel Wilson in his career for example I do not recall taking big hits, but he ran all the time. The QB in Philly I don't see taking many big hits either. He does and will do his fair share of pocket passing in his career, but I'm not holding my breath on them making him a complete pocket passer.

 

 I'm believing that we have great coaching, a seriously hard to guard receiving core, a really solid run and pass blocking line and a running back core that will produce at a very high level.

 I don't see Steichen having many QB designed runs. AR will keep the ball opportunisticly to keep them honest, but always looking downfield for a shot.

 What should get fun now and then is we get them in man, run all go routes getting their backs turned, AR does a 7 step drop then an opening occurs and he is off to the races.

 Luck did this so many times. Once we had a 3rd and 21-22 near the end of the game and Luck, in that circumstance ran for 23. It was crazy, exhilarating, fandom fun to see it happen and it led to the game winner.

 He also had that nice run going against Denver and two guys caught him really hard and he did a mid-air whirlwind. That looked soo bad, didn't he lacerate a kidney? 

 AR is going to shine. 

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On 8/24/2024 at 1:46 PM, CR91 said:

 

It's not a bad pass if he's expecting Granson to sit at that spot. The problem with option routes are if the QB and the target aren't on the same page, the result is what you see there

 

But in the video, Daniels faults Granson because he didn't sit and make eye contact with AR...to potentially open up an additional options on the route. But AR threw that ball before Granson (or any player) could even turned around, so sitting, making eye contact and then doing something else wasn't even possible. 

 

We don't know who wasn't on the same page, but let's say it was Granson. In the All-22 you can see the DB cheating down, right where AR is looking, but he still throws it inside of Granson toward the DB. If Granson turns to sit where that ball, he's possibly getting lit up by that DB or there's a possible tip drill. 


Daniels also pointed out how open the intermediate part of the field was on that play.

 

Yes, it's a bad route or bad timing or both...but it's also not a good read or pass.

 

Blame Granson, but AR is not faultless. I have seen this trend of "giving credit to AR for good plays" and "blaming others for bad plays" start to develop over just two preseason games. That will get old fast, so I hope it doesn't carry into the season.

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20 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

But in the video, Daniels faults Granson because he didn't sit and make eye contact with AR...to potentially open up an additional options on the route. But AR threw that ball before Granson (or any player) could even turned around, so sitting, making eye contact and then doing something else wasn't even possible. 

 

We don't know who wasn't on the same page, but let's say it was Granson. In the All-22 you can see the DB cheating down, right where AR is looking, but he still throws it inside of Granson toward the DB. If Granson turns to sit where that ball, he's possibly getting lit up by that DB or there's a possible tip drill. 


Daniels also pointed out how open the intermediate part of the field was on that play.

 

Yes, it's a bad route or bad timing or both...but it's also not a good read or pass.

 

Blame Granson, but AR is not faultless. I have seen this trend of "giving credit to AR for good plays" and "blaming others for bad plays" start to develop over just two preseason games. That will get old fast, so I hope it doesn't carry into the season.

 

I didn't say AR was not at fault. I'm saying that was the correct read. Pitt was too late getting open on that play stand the underneath was open. That's an easy 5 yards of AR and Granson are on the same page.

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20 hours ago, Myles said:

i think we may see allot of INT's this season.  Hopefully a lot of TD's to offset them.

 

Then we will get video breakdowns of why they aren't AR's fault lol.

 

In just 16 passes in preseason, an INT and several incompletions have been blamed on everything from DL pressure to Granson to AD and even MPJ.

 

Daniels says that it's "hard to speculate" in this video. If most people would acknowledge that he's a young, developing QB, then they should acknowledge that those QBs tend to make mistakes. But seems like AR is often getting the benefit of the doubt on anything that's not a good play. To me, that comes off more as some type of bias rather than speculation. 

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8 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Daniels says that it's "hard to speculate" in this video. If most people would acknowledge that he's a young, developing QB, then they should acknowledge that those QBs tend to make mistakes. But seems like AR is often getting the benefit of the doubt on anything that's not a good play. To me, that comes off more as some type of bias rather than speculation. 

 

There are several plays in that game that were obviously Richardson's fault. The INT is the one that has been talked about the most, and it seems plain that it wasn't his fault. Saying that is not an evidence of bias.

 

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1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 So I listened to Chase Daniel.

 His knowledge of the game said that the route Mitchell ran should have been 18 yards in man coverage or 22 in zone. Why would he think this?

 Can we trust that his many years in the league, under a variety of coaches, that this is just a common concept?

 Mitchell cut it off at 14 yards. Perhaps this was another excellent throw.

 AR started the game with quick thinking, throwing highly accurate zingers.

He is ready. Figure the 1st half+ of the season our receiving core sharpens their route running so they become highly trusted, then we will become an offensive juggernaut. lol

 

I don't know whether Mitchell cut off his route, but Steichen made a similar suggestion post-game. Mitchell freelanced his routes multiple times in this game. I think that's something that everyone will have to adjust to as time goes on.

 

And while it's possible that he wasn't deep enough on that play, Richardson still needs to refine his touch. The throw was too hard and flat, and with a little more touch, Mitchell might have been able to adjust, even to an imperfectly thrown pass. 

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On 8/24/2024 at 1:46 PM, Smonroe said:

 

If you watch the video, AR throws it to the spot where Granson is supposed to be sitting - just as Granson makes a move to the outside.  So, as far as accuracy, it's really hard to pin it on AR.  He may have been 100% accurate.  We really don't know.

 

We just hope they both learned something.  As Shane said - teaching moment.

 

I have watched it and read what some have said.

 

What AR said is that "he saw something" and that "Granson saw something else." No doubt a miscommunication. But that doesn't Granson was entirely wrong and AR was entirely right. Besides, AR threw it very fast, which really meant that Granson didn't even have an option so it didn't matter what he saw. So miscommunication and possibly timing.

 

What AR saw and the spot where Granson is "supposed to be sitting" has a DB right there. Daniels even says it was perfect coverage for that. So at best, AR knows he is throwing into a very tight window, which creates risk. 

 

I don't think it was an issue of inaccuracy for what he was intending to do. However, that was certainly the case with other incompletions. And the INT and incompletions all occurred in the same 5-6 pass plays after the first drive when AR was struggling. So it's not like it was a one-off bad play surrounded by good plays. It was a series of poor plays directly in contrast to the first drive.

 

That's all I am saying. That it was a combination of factors, including Granson and AR. I willing to bet that Steichen didn't turn on the tape and tell AR "hey man...that was all on Granson...not your fault." At least I hope not.

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5 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I have watched it and read what some have said.

 

What AR said is that "he saw something" and that "Granson saw something else." No doubt a miscommunication. But that doesn't Granson was entirely wrong and AR was entirely right. Besides, AR threw it very fast, which really meant that Granson didn't even have an option so it didn't matter what he saw. So miscommunication and possibly timing.

 

What AR saw and the spot where Granson is "supposed to be sitting" has a DB right there. Daniels even says it was perfect coverage for that. So at best, AR knows he is throwing into a very tight window, which creates risk. 

 

I don't think it was an issue of inaccuracy for what he was intending to do. However, that was certainly the case with other incompletions. And the INT and incompletions all occurred in the same 5-6 pass plays after the first drive when AR was struggling. So it's not like it was a one-off bad play surrounded by good plays. It was a series of poor plays directly in contrast to the first drive.

 

That's all I am saying. That it was a combination of factors, including Granson and AR. I willing to bet that Steichen didn't turn on the tape and tell AR "hey man...that was all on Granson...not your fault." At least I hope not.

 

As I said, it's hard to say.  Bowen said that AR was laser focused on Granson and the DB was reading his eyes, ready to jump the route.  That's the teaching moment.  Use your eyes to move or stick the DB.

 

Of course that's easy for me to say, a pro QB has milliseconds to make those kinds of decisions.  That's why they're paid multi-millions each year (except for Brock Purdy, lol!).

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5 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

As I said, it's hard to say.  Bowen said that AR was laser focused on Granson and the DB was reading his eyes, ready to jump the route.  That's the teaching moment.  Use your eyes to move or stick the DB.

 

Of course that's easy for me to say, a pro QB has milliseconds to make those kinds of decisions.  That's why they're paid multi-millions each year (except for Brock Purdy, lol!).

 

It's 2nd and 10, and they were at their own 9 yard line. He made a quick decision and threw a pass that should have been good for a 5 yard gain. That's just managing the situation. There are other plays where the QB should manipulate the coverage. In that situation, just take the quick gain and get to third and manageable. 

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