Jaylon Jones is CB1

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

I think Jaylon Jones will end up being better than Franklin.  

 

I do have to tip my hat to the LB scouting, they have unearthed good talent from Leonard to Okereke to Franklin, at various points in the draft. 

IMO, scouting a guy that was off everybody's radar deserves praise.  Scouting a 7th round pick that a simple internet search said was a top 100 player is sort of like thinking that Pikes Peak is a really cool mountain only after you've scouted it.

 

I probably sound like a persistent cloudy day, but are these the same guys who get called out for never covering the middle of the field?  Note that this is a sincere question because I don't participate in the LB discussion much, outside of Leonard's draft profile saying that he was a rangy guy back in the day.

 

But I read comments like these guys are real steals.  Then another thread talking about how they can't cover.  Which is it?

[BProland85]

I just hope Brents can get healthy and Flowers comes back strong next year. Would still like to add a good veteran corner in FA as well. Indy should have some money to play with to add depth there along with other position groups. 

[chad72]

10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

IMO, scouting a guy that was off everybody's radar deserves praise.  Scouting a 7th round pick that a simple internet search said was a top 100 player is sort of like thinking that Pikes Peak is a really cool mountain only after you've scouted it.

 

I probably sound like a persistent cloudy day, but are these the same guys who get called out for never covering the middle of the field?  Note that this is a sincere question because I don't participate in the LB discussion much, outside of Leonard's draft profile saying that he was a rangy guy back in the day.

 

But I read comments like these guys are real steals.  Then another thread talking about how they can't cover.  Which is it?

 

Middle of the field is typically a hard cover unless you have insane talent like the Jets' LBs. Having Said that, Gus Bradley's D typically do well with the corners on the outside funneling more stuff inside thus giving less WR production and more slot WR production and TE production. However, when the talent and scheme catches up with familiarity (see Kenny Moore), the production improves. It is just lazy to say someone can't cover in zone coverage unless they know whose assignment it is. If they plan man a lot across the board like the Jets do, or based on the coverage, there could be a case.

 

Our LBs seem to do better on the coverage end as time has gone on but like a lot of coverage situations, if the QB can sit in the pocket for 5 seconds, it is hard to hold up in coverage for that long. 

 

As far as Jaylon Jones goes, IMO, any player they had on their board at that point, probably had a good floor but not the ceiling they wanted, so they got him in the 7th round but not sure they expected such a ceiling from him. So, I am sure he has exceeded their expectations just like some 7th rounders do. 

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Middle of the field is typically a hard cover unless you have insane talent like the Jets' LBs. Having Said that, Gus Bradley's D typically do well with the corners on the outside funneling more stuff inside thus giving less WR production and more slot WR production and TE production. However, when the talent and scheme catches up with familiarity (see Kenny Moore), the production improves. It is just lazy to say someone can't cover in zone coverage unless they know whose assignment it is. If they plan man a lot across the board like the Jets do, or based on the coverage, there could be a case.

 

Our LBs seem to do better on the coverage end as time has gone on but like a lot of coverage situations, if the QB can sit in the pocket for 5 seconds, it is hard to hold up in coverage for that long. 

 

As far as Jaylon Jones goes, IMO, any player they had on their board at that point, probably had a good floor but not the ceiling they wanted, so they got him in the 7th round but not sure they expected such a ceiling from him. So, I am sure he has exceeded their expectations just like some 7th rounders do. 

And I'm not bagging on Franklin.  He's playing better than his draft slot suggests he would.  Its great that he is and that point stands on its own. 

 

Are any of the LBers replaceable at this point?  Obviously salary cap value drives a big part of what you settle for or go after, but Leonard was thought to the one elite LBer that you can build a LBer corps around.  Just wondering if any of these guys have elevated their play to where they should be the lead pillar....or do we need a better one? 

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

And I'm not bagging on Franklin.  He's playing better than his draft slot suggests he would.  Its great that he is and that point stands on its own. 

 

Are any of the LBers replaceable at this point?  Obviously salary cap value drives a big part of what you settle for or go after, but Leonard was thought to the one elite LBer that you can build a LBer corps around.  Just wondering if any of these guys have elevated their play to where they should be the lead pillar....or do we need a better one? 

 

Everyone is replaceable, if the price is not right. Ballard has let go of LBs like Okereke, Polian let go of LBs like Washington, Thornton etc.

 

Unless you find that elite Fred Warner, Roquan Smith type (typically found on Day 1 or 2 of the draft), most LBs tend to be replaceable, IMO. If the scouting can find Leonard, Okereke, Franklin at different points of the draft in the past, I am sure they can find those in the future too.

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Everyone is replaceable, if the price is not right. Ballard has let go of LBs like Okereke, Polian let go of LBs like Washington, Thornton etc.

 

Unless you find that elite Fred Warner, Roquan Smith type (typically found on Day 1 or 2 of the draft), most LBs tend to be replaceable, IMO. If the scouting can find Leonard, Okereke, Franklin at different points of the draft in the past, I am sure they can find those in the future too.

I get that.  Every player has a ceiling despite what they might cost.   Do you think there should be a resourced effort into looking for a replacement for any of the starting LBers?  

[chad72]

10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I get that.  Every player has a ceiling despite what they might cost.   Do you think there should be a resourced effort into looking for a replacement for any of the starting LBers?  

 

The cupboard for most positions has to be replenished, all the time, IMO, except for prime positions like QB, where there is little turnover since the evaluation period is typically 3-4 years if drafted and backup QBs are seldom drafted.

 

You decide on depth/starters at 3 or 4 positions that need the most infusion of depth or replacement anticipation, draft those when value presents itself, and move on to 3 or 4 other positions next draft for depth and so on. That process is constant/should be constant with any GM, IMO. Since all holes for starters can't be filled with the draft, you supplement with FA.

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

The cupboard for most positions has to be replenished, all the time, IMO, except for prime positions like QB, where there is little turnover since the evaluation period is typically 3-4 years if drafted and backup QBs are seldom drafted.

 

You decide on depth/starters at 3 or 4 positions that need the most infusion of depth or replacement anticipation, draft those when value presents itself, and move on to 3 or 4 other positions next draft for depth and so on. That process is constant/should be constant with any GM, IMO. Since all holes for starters can't be filled with the draft, you supplement with FA.

I understand how talent rolls off and onto a team and how priorities are matched against capital.

 

Are you not understanding my question?  If you don't understand, don't want to say an answer, or don't have an opinion, that's fine.  Just making sure you understand what I'm asking.

 

Do you think the ceiling of talent for the LBer corps is good enough?  And I know good enough is relative, so it would be in your view.

[chad72]

24 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I understand how talent rolls off and onto a team and how priorities are matched against capital.

 

Are you not understanding my question?  If you don't understand, don't want to say an answer, or don't have an opinion, that's fine.  Just making sure you understand what I'm asking.

 

Do you think the ceiling of talent for the LBer corps is good enough?  And I know good enough is relative, so it would be in your view.

 

IMO, yes, it could use an upgrade, I don't see an elite LB on our squad but given the pass happy nature of the league, our LBs are built for where the league is heading to be good enough, like you said. If a team goes jumbo, 3 TEs with 5 OL or 2 TEs with 6 OL and tries to run it down our throat, we don't have a thumper of a LB or DT depth to disrupt that kind of game plan, unless we get ahead and play ahead on offense, which has not been the case since the Andrew Luck days for most of the time. But if they go 4 wide, we have the lighter bodies to keep up.

 

If the Titans go with that game plan, I am afraid we are going to have to worry unless everyone plays with "perfect" gap integrity 80-90% of the time, which typically doesn't happen.

[husker61]

I haven’t been impressed with the colt lb’s for a long time. To me the biggest needs are another big dt, and lb, maybe one that is a little bigger and has pass rushing skills. That’s where I would focus the top 2-3 rounds. As always, if a player you like isn’t there at those positions, trade down and get more picks. 

[krunk]

When is JuJu coming back?

[Defjamz26]

22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Maybe Jones wasn’t ready before.   Maybe he’s ready now.   Isn’t that possible? 

 

 

It is. But when you factor in how bad Baker was immediately versus how much better Jones was…well immediately, it lends you to believe that the staff just missed. I mean if he wasn’t ready we’d have seen it reflected on the field with poor play. He’s had his rookie growing pains, but he’s looked like he’s been ready for awhile now. He popped in pre-season too. Just food for thought.

[VikingsFanInChennai]

13 hours ago, DougDew said:

Then he tested 4.4 at Ole Miss pro day, after him saying the 4.57 was not a good day.  Its possible that teams just moved off of him because of the 4.57 time and arm length and never followed up with his pro day..

 

A 7th round pick seems like a situation where someone is taking a flyer, not really looking at the player that closely. 

 

But I could see Ballard dropping him because of the arm length. LOL.

 

Jones was a 4 year starter for the most part.  Had an injury mid career and lost some PT after that.

 

Could also be a guy who is playing well as a NFL rookie because of a lot of snaps in college but ultimately has an NFL ceiling.

As someone said earlier, if not for a position coach pounding the table for Jones, Colts would probably have ignored him (in Ballard's own words from his press conference). 

 

All you said might be true, but hope he doesn't fade away and learn to adapt with the limitations. 

[richard pallo]

10 hours ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

As someone said earlier, if not for a position coach pounding the table for Jones, Colts would probably have ignored him (in Ballard's own words from his press conference). 

 

All you said might be true, but hope he doesn't fade away and learn to adapt with the limitations. 

No different for anyone who has been in management.  You pay your subordinates for their expertise and advice.  You listen to them and make your decision.  I would bet other coaches might have been pushing one of their guys.  You make your choice and hope you’re right.

[DougDew]

10 hours ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

As someone said earlier, if not for a position coach pounding the table for Jones, Colts would probably have ignored him (in Ballard's own words from his press conference). 

 

All you said might be true, but hope he doesn't fade away and learn to adapt with the limitations. 

Thanks and I like that.  A position coach saw something and advocated for him...yeah a position coach would probably be at the level due diligence would have been performed along the way.

 

Still a bit of a wonder as to why no other team saw the talent through six rounds when the idea that he could be a Top 100 player must have not seemed like a secret.  I guess we'll never really know.

[Defjamz26]

10 hours ago, VikingsFanInChennai said:

As someone said earlier, if not for a position coach pounding the table for Jones, Colts would probably have ignored him (in Ballard's own words from his press conference). 

 

All you said might be true, but hope he doesn't fade away and learn to adapt with the limitations. 

What I take from that (and from this whole 2023 draft class) is Ballard is learning to trust his staff more. He drafted Downs who wasn’t the typical Build-A-Ballard type at receiver, because Wayne spoke very highly of him and he fit what Steichen wanted. Year 1 he’s already out produced Campbell and Alec Pierce’s individual production from last year.

 

Jones had a shorter arms and was slower than typical Ballard corners. He took him because his scout pounded the table for him. Even Richardson. Morroco Brown was the first guy on AR and got Ballard to really look at him.

 

We talk about the leaps the players on the team make, but Ballard took a huge leap this offseason as a GM.

[richard pallo]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Thanks and I like that.  A position coach saw something and advocated for him...yeah a position coach would probably be at the level due diligence would have been performed along the way.

 

Still a bit of a wonder as to why no other team saw the talent through six rounds when the idea that he could be a Top 100 player must have not seemed like a secret.  I guess we'll never really know.

Because coaches are human beings and they all don’t see players in the same light.  They have misses in the early rounds and success in the later rounds.  It happens all the time.  If it was easy I could do it.  

[richard pallo]

3 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

What I take from that (and from this whole 2023 draft class) is Ballard is learning to trust his staff more. He drafted Downs who wasn’t the typical Build-A-Ballard type at receiver, because Wayne spoke very highly of him and he fit what Steichen wanted. Year 1 he’s already out produced Campbell and Alec Pierce’s individual production from last year.

 

Jones had a shorter arms and was slower than typical Ballard corners. He took him because his scout pounded the table for him. Even Richardson. Morroco Brown was the first guy on AR and got Ballard to really look at him.

 

We talk about the leaps the players on the team make, but Ballard took a huge leap this offseason as a GM.

He deferred to Reich on his quarterback choices as well.  I think he has always listened to his coaches.  He still made the call but I think he values their input and experience.  I think we resigned Taylor because Steichen wanted him.  I expect he will have a lot of input going forward no doubt.

[#12.]

On 11/29/2023 at 8:54 PM, RollerColt said:

Ballard has had some good luck with these late round picks. 
 

Franklin and now Jones.

 

Just wait until the 7th round to take a pass rusher.  Problem solved.

 

Ballard's rosters aren't devoid of talent.  If, if the Colts make the playoffs, Ballard will have made the playoffs with a 3rd different QB, and they should have made it with Wentz also.  They had a 98% chance of making the playoffs going into the final two games.

 

Ballard's rosters aren't devoid of talent.  He just has to get QB and the money positions right.  Had Luck not retired, what he does would have worked like magic.

 

 

[Defjamz26]

25 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

He deferred to Reich on his quarterback choices as well.  I think he has always listened to his coaches.  He still made the call but I think he values their input and experience.  I think we resigned Taylor because Steichen wanted him.  I expect he will have a lot of input going forward no doubt.

Didn’t he say in a press conference that the QB carousel was on him? Perhaps I’m mistaken.

 

But no doubt he has always valued their input. It just seems like lately he’s been approaching personnel decisions differently than he has been in the past. From FA, the draft, veteran players, etc…And it could be a team thing. Maybe he’s told everyone that the way they scout needs to change. 

[RollerColt]

37 minutes ago, #12. said:

They had a 98% chance of making the playoffs going into the final two games.

I will say this about that particular roster and that particular situation. The collapse of 2021 against the Raiders and Jags fell squarely on Reich, his coaching staff and the players. 

 

For 21, Ballard had assembled a roster good enough to make the playoffs. 

 

Honestly in hindsight, Ballard should've put his friendship aside and fired Reich after losing to Jacksonville. They should've went into the 2022 season with a new head coach and not have gone after Matt Ryan. 

 

Oh well. At least we've got Shane now, and we're in the thick of the playoff race. And hopefully we'll have Anthony back next season to really see what this team can do at full power. 

[husker61]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

  I think we resigned Taylor because Steichen wanted him. 

I have said it was the owner, the colts have done these signing over. Any coaches and gm’s, the only constant is the owner!

[#12.]

59 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

I will say this about that particular roster and that particular situation. The collapse of 2021 again

 

Honestly in hindsight, Ballard should've put his friendship aside and fired Reich after losing to Jacksonville. They should've went into the 2022 season with a new head coach and not have gone after Matt Ryan.

 

Who knows, though.  Irsay might have just gone with Saturday, full time, at that moment.  Lol

[chad72]

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Didn’t he say in a press conference that the QB carousel was on him? Perhaps I’m mistaken.

 

But no doubt he has always valued their input. It just seems like lately he’s been approaching personnel decisions differently than he has been in the past. From FA, the draft, veteran players, etc…And it could be a team thing. Maybe he’s told everyone that the way they scout needs to change. 

 

I bet Steichen requests a little more aggression in FA than years past to help out AR. The GM-HC symbiotic relationship is critical to maximize the efficiency of any roster.

[chad72]

3 hours ago, RollerColt said:

I will say this about that particular roster and that particular situation. The collapse of 2021 against the Raiders and Jags fell squarely on Reich, his coaching staff and the players. 

 

For 21, Ballard had assembled a roster good enough to make the playoffs. 

 

Honestly in hindsight, Ballard should've put his friendship aside and fired Reich after losing to Jacksonville. They should've went into the 2022 season with a new head coach and not have gone after Matt Ryan. 

 

Oh well. At least we've got Shane now, and we're in the thick of the playoff race. And hopefully we'll have Anthony back next season to really see what this team can do at full power. 

 

Like Curtis Painter delivered us Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan delivered us Anthony Richardson. While the future is unknown, we didn't have to pay a premium to get him. If we were sitting in the teens, who knows, the Panthers' franchise may have been spared from Bryce Young and a trade with the Bears??

[Indyfan4life]

21 hours ago, krunk said:

When is JuJu coming back?

Anytime between next week and next season.

 

No one knows, honestly. I hope it's sooner than later if Indy does indeed hold onto a WC spot.

[throwing BBZ]

57 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I bet Steichen requests a little more aggression in FA than years past to help out AR. The GM-HC symbiotic relationship is critical to maximize the efficiency of any roster.

 

 Since we are projecting just 11 games into year one, I predict the draft will be the source for a WR and a quality interior line prospect by rd 4.

 The other 2 picks will be defense, surely one a LB. In FA LB should be priority one.

[DougDew]

4 hours ago, RollerColt said:

I will say this about that particular roster and that particular situation. The collapse of 2021 against the Raiders and Jags fell squarely on Reich, his coaching staff and the players. 

 

For 21, Ballard had assembled a roster good enough to make the playoffs. 

 

Honestly in hindsight, Ballard should've put his friendship aside and fired Reich after losing to Jacksonville. They should've went into the 2022 season with a new head coach and not have gone after Matt Ryan. 

 

Oh well. At least we've got Shane now, and we're in the thick of the playoff race. And hopefully we'll have Anthony back next season to really see what this team can do at full power. 

I think it would have been tough to fire Reich at that point after (I think) he was signed to an extension before that season.  We were a playoff contender for most of the season.

 

We did stink the beginning of 2021 (remember Wentz. two sprained ankles), and, the last 2 or 3 games too.  In between the Colts won, primarily because JT busted off big runs for a few games and provided a threat.  But, he also kinda stunk as a rookie....there were plenty here who wondered about his field vision, being not as good as Mack's as they remembered.

 

Consider this:  What if the JT phenomenon was an anomaly?  The result of defenses being surprised by what JT did that never showed up on his rookie tape or the first few games of that season.  Then after a while, they figured out how to defend the Colts.  And then you get the last two games of 2021....and all of 2022.

 

Without that middle of the 2021 season, the Colts really would have stunk ever since the Rivers season.  If JT would not have done his thing in mid-2021, Reich may have been fired after 2021 and we'd never have Ryan.  Without those big runs in mid 2021 that have been shut down ever since, this may have been the first week the Colts have been over .500 since Rivers retired. 

[chad72]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Since we are projecting just 11 games into year one, I predict the draft will be the source for a WR and a quality interior line prospect by rd 4.

 The other 2 picks will be defense, surely one a LB. In FA LB should be priority one.

 

With how well the scouting has done getting Leonard, Okereke, Speed, Franklin at different points in the draft, I feel LB through the draft is the way to go. OL and DL are the positions that need seasoning at the NFL level, so I would prioritize re-signing Grover Stewart. Then augment like you said on Day 2 of the draft.

 

WRs, CBs playing on an island, RBs, even safeties that can be used as hybrid LBs all give good ROI from the draft, IMO.

[GoColts8818]

8 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Anytime between next week and next season.

 

No one knows, honestly. I hope it's sooner than later if Indy does indeed hold onto a WC spot.

Shane suggested in his presser at the start of the week there was a chance Brents could be back this week.  It didn’t happen but it suggests he’s pretty close so I would expect the next week or two.

[ProblChld32]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:53 PM, Defjamz26 said:

He’s been absolutely phenomenal this year. Week 9 against the Panthers he had an 89.1 coverage grade. His first 150 snaps in coverage he had allowed less than 100 yards receiving, which at the time was tied with Marlon Humphrey. Add in how great he’s been at tackling and hitting and you have CB1. I think when Brent’s is healthy they’re like 1A and 1B. Brent’s is tad bit more athletic though. The draft class is turning into a steal for Ballard. 
 

Come FA and draft, corners should be added for depth and competition. I don’t think we need a big signing or early draft pick. 

He’s been very good thus far. I think he’s going to have a solid career. Savvy veterans are going to have their way with him tho. Mike Evans showed that.

[Defjamz26]

7 hours ago, ProblChld32 said:

He’s been very good thus far. I think he’s going to have a solid career. Savvy veterans are going to have their way with him tho. Mike Evans showed that.

Thats to be expected year 1. Especially against a guy like Evans. A lot of his growth will come from film work. Once he starts seeing the nuances in receivers releases, he’ll become more predictive and won’t be susceptible to every small movement.

[sb41champs]

Congrats Jaylon Jones on beginning your NFL career in a positive manner!!

[Dingus McGirt]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:43 PM, DougDew said:

IMO, scouting a guy that was off everybody's radar deserves praise.  Scouting a 7th round pick that a simple internet search said was a top 100 player is sort of like thinking that Pikes Peak is a really cool mountain only after you've scouted it.

 

I probably sound like a persistent cloudy day, but are these the same guys who get called out for never covering the middle of the field?  Note that this is a sincere question because I don't participate in the LB discussion much, outside of Leonard's draft profile saying that he was a rangy guy back in the day.

 

But I read comments like these guys are real steals.  Then another thread talking about how they can't cover.  Which is it?

Depends on the Sunday…

[Dark Superman]

Brents CB1 once he returns. Jones CB2 Moore CB3.

[richard pallo]

10 hours ago, Dark Superman said:

Brents CB1 once he returns. Jones CB2 Moore CB3.

Maybe maybe not.  If Jones keeps trending like he has been he will most likely be CB1.  Brent’s has missed a lot of time.  Good for the Colts either way.

[ProblChld32]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:25 AM, Defjamz26 said:

Thats to be expected year 1. Especially against a guy like Evans. A lot of his growth will come from film work. Once he starts seeing the nuances in receivers releases, he’ll become more predictive and won’t be susceptible to every small movement.

Absolutely, it will only make him that much better moving forward. We will have a solid tandem in Brent’s and Jones.

[SOMDColtsfan]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:22 PM, chad72 said:

 

Everyone is replaceable, if the price is not right. Ballard has let go of LBs like Okereke, Polian let go of LBs like Washington, Thornton etc.

 

Unless you find that elite Fred Warner, Roquan Smith type (typically found on Day 1 or 2 of the draft), most LBs tend to be replaceable, IMO. If the scouting can find Leonard, Okereke, Franklin at different points of the draft in the past, I am sure they can find those in the future too.

I believe I read once Polian regretted letting Thornton go. Something along the lines of wishing had a do-over. Hind sight is also 20-20

[krunk]

Heck even Baker seems to be playing better than he was in the beginning.  Not tremendously better but better than being Mr. Automatic first down target guy like before. 

[husker61]

Cornerback may be the toughest defensive position on the field. You are usually out there on your own and the rules are all in the receivers favor. It’s very rare for rookies to be very good let alone shut down corners.