AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Any decent game managers? I am not a fan of gunslingers. How would you describe Maye? From what I have read, I may prefer him over the others. The Vikes need to draft a QB.

 

Just keep Kirk Cousins then... Would you describe Mahomes as a gunslinger? I don't think game managers will win in the modern NFL.

 

I'm not ready to describe Drake Maye. I had a pretty average opinion of him before this season, I've started to come around more on him lately, but I'd be doing a disservice to try to give any real insight at this point. There's no question that he's talented, though.

[NFLfan]

35 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Just keep Kirk Cousins then... Would you describe Mahomes as a gunslinger? I don't think game managers will win in the modern NFL.

 

I'm not ready to describe Drake Maye. I had a pretty average opinion of him before this season, I've started to come around more on him lately, but I'd be doing a disservice to try to give any real insight at this point. There's no question that he's talented, though.

 

I guess it depends on what one defines as a game manager. It is unfair to call Purdy a game manager but in college, that is what you saw. A friend of mine who is a huge Iowa St fan wrote before the draft that Purdy would be a practice squad guy. He has blossomed into a great QB. He is coached well.

 

Anyway, we probably should have a different thread for this discussion.

[Superman]

15 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I guess it depends on what one defines as a game manager. It is unfair to call Purdy a game manager but in college, that is what you saw. A friend of mine who is a huge Iowa St fan wrote before the draft that Purdy would be a practice squad guy. He has blossomed into a great QB. He is coached well.

 

Anyway, we probably should have a different thread for tthi discussion.

 

Yeah, hold that thought. We'll get to it in the offseason, I'm sure.

 

Just want to say, I've watched some Brock Purdy college games. There's a big difference between NFL prospect Brock Purdy, and NFL QB Brock Purdy. It might just be a testament to the simple fact that players in their early 20s can get a lot better with the right coaching and support system.

[Zoltan]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Just keep Kirk Cousins then... Would you describe Mahomes as a gunslinger? I don't think game managers will win in the modern NFL.

 

I'm not ready to describe Drake Maye. I had a pretty average opinion of him before this season, I've started to come around more on him lately, but I'd be doing a disservice to try to give any real insight at this point. There's no question that he's talented, though.

 

Honestly I wouldn't describe Mahomes as a gunslinger. I know the question wasn't directed towards me, I would say he is a improviser but he really doesn't do the very risky throws that I would say a gunslinger does. @NFLfan I was just at the Vikings vs Saints game, Vikings stadium is pretty nice. I think the vikings really should keep Dobbs and let Cousins walk in FA, then find a QB they like in this draft and do what they have to, to get him. Some interesting names at this point that will probably be in the vikings range would be Nix, Sanders (if he comes out), and Daniels who is quietly having a great year. Obviously it's too early to make a real judgement on these guys but it seems this year may be a deep QB draft.

[NFLfan]

19 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

I think the vikings really should keep Dobbs and let Cousins walk in FA, then find a QB they like in this draft and do what they have to, to get him.

 

I would prefer that, as Dobbs does not cost us as much. I want the Vikes to draft a QB.

 

19 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 I was just at the Vikings vs Saints game, Vikings stadium is pretty nice.

 

I'm glad you got to go. That was a pretty good game. The stadium is beautiful. I'm not from MN, but I did attend a game there the year it opened. It was great. @rockywoj said he has been there a few times..

 

Thank you for the information on the QBs. I have not seen Daniels. McCarthy is one that Vikings fans talk about. I'm familiar with Caleb and Maye. Some talk about Nix and a few others.

 

You have Richardson as the QB of the future. Would you still like the Colts to take a QB in the mid to late rounds. Some like Purdy can be gems.

[dw49]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Oh I get it.  That passer rating is kind of wonky anyway with only 17 attempts, so I didn't think it was saying he had a great game.  BTW, I didn't start any convo about passer rating AFAIK.  I know stats need context, so I posted the info I had, which was much more than the rating.

 

 I think the bottom line is that TEN's offense is bad.  A combo of a rookie QB, no weapons at receiver other than an aging DHop, injured oline, and who knows if DH has lost a step.  It seems like TENs defense couldn't get off the field.  Making for a 3-7 team and a top 10 pick probably.  

 

Its interesting that despite TEN falling behind, Vrabel didn't appear to have Levis sling it around (17 attempts?).  What I've seen is bad short passing game (no gains) and Levis holding the ball waiting for something to develop down field on the longer pass plays.  Going on the 4th game now.   Yet Vrabel has made Levis the starter.  Seems like the offense is staying in a predetermined box the rest of the year.  Almost like where we thought SS would do with AR, sort of an introduction to the NFL type of season.

 

 

 

 

Other than me thinking DH is still very good , I agree with you.

[husker61]

8 hours ago, Superman said:

 

What about doing neither? He's using his feet to run into pressure, and it's right in his face, so how does he not see it? He's also holding the ball too long, standing in the pocket too long, etc. This was evident on his Kentucky tape, also.

 

He needs to be much quicker making decisions in the pocket, whether he's throwing or running.

so did luck, both mannings, and other pure pocket passers. It takes them all a while to adjust to the n fl defenses.

[husker61]

7 hours ago, DougDew said:

Seems like a case of looking through every read instead of moving out of the pocket after about the second read.  Just not enough focus on the rush.

that may be what they want him to do, go through his reads. The big problem may be the terrible o-line. Would he look better with the colts line and 2 top backs? Who knows.

[compuls1v3]

3 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

I guess it depends on what one defines as a game manager. It is unfair to call Purdy a game manager but in college, that is what you saw. A friend of mine who is a huge Iowa St fan wrote before the draft that Purdy would be a practice squad guy. He has blossomed into a great QB. He is coached well.

 

Anyway, we probably should have a different thread for this discussion.

My father said Purdy would be a good QB before the draft because he beat some teams he shouldn't have in college.  I haven't watched him closely enough to determine if he can put a team on his back or not 

[Zoltan]

3 hours ago, NFLfan said:

You have Richardson as the QB of the future. Would you still like the Colts to take a QB in the mid to late rounds. Some like Purdy can be gems.

I usually would like them to always take one QB late in the draft. Next year I think we have to resign Minshew, he's exactly what you want in a backup veteran. He's one of the best backups in the league but also very comfortable being the backup and wanting to help the young starting QB. I also like Ehlinger because he has good football IQ and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up having a good career as a coach.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

You really need to ignore a few here.

 

That QB rating is misleading.  Anyone watching the Tennessee game would see that. I was busy with my sister who was visiting from Georgia, but I happened to check the game in the 3rd quarter. Levis had not done anything. I think he barely threw for 100 yards. By the time he threw those TDs, especially the second one, it was probably garbage time.

 

Now, Brock Purdy's QB rating was legit. He looked great. And his team won the game.

Well noted. 

[DougDew]

10 hours ago, husker61 said:

that may be what they want him to do, go through his reads. The big problem may be the terrible o-line. Would he look better with the colts line and 2 top backs? Who knows.

What I saw in the games I watched looked like intentional decisions to not take off running after his first or second reads were covered.  But I think he needs to run sideways earlier to extend the play and not stand back there like Marino expecting to be protected.  I would think once he starts recognizing when to take off, or simply make it intentional as a coaching decision, it would begin to feel comfortable.

 

BTW, Bryce Young seems to take more than his expected number of sacks this year.  He stays in the pocket on plays a lot longer than it looks like he should.  

[Dingus McGirt]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Just keep Kirk Cousins then... Would you describe Mahomes as a gunslinger? I don't think game managers will win in the modern NFL.

 

I'm not ready to describe Drake Maye. I had a pretty average opinion of him before this season, I've started to come around more on him lately, but I'd be doing a disservice to try to give any real insight at this point. There's no question that he's talented, though.

JMO, Maye is the complete package.  His current team - UNC - has a very bad defense and an even worse OL.  

[husker61]

8 hours ago, DougDew said:

What I saw in the games I watched looked like intentional decisions to not take off running after his first or second reads were covered.  But I think he needs to run sideways earlier to extend the play and not stand back there like Marino expecting to be protected.  I would think once he starts recognizing when to take off, or simply make it intentional as a coaching decision, it would begin to feel comfortable.

 

BTW, Bryce Young seems to take more than his expected number of sacks this year.  He stays in the pocket on plays a lot longer than it looks like he should.  

that seems to be what pure pocket passers go through when adjusting to the nfl.

[Stephen]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:50 PM, NFLfan said:

 

I would prefer that, as Dobbs does not cost us as much. I want the Vikes to draft a QB.

 

 

I'm glad you got to go. That was a pretty good game. The stadium is beautiful. I'm not from MN, but I did attend a game there the year it opened. It was great. @rockywoj said he has been there a few times..

 

Thank you for the information on the QBs. I have not seen Daniels. McCarthy is one that Vikings fans talk about. I'm familiar with Caleb and Maye. Some talk about Nix and a few others.

 

You have Richardson as the QB of the future. Would you still like the Colts to take a QB in the mid to late rounds. Some like Purdy can be gems.

Yes we can upgrade from minshew

[DougDew]

11/26

 

Young: 18/31 194 yds, 0TDs, 0INTs, Longest 25 yds, 4 Sacks, Rating 76.5

Stroud: 26/36 304 yds 2TDs, 0INTs, Longest 34, Sacks 4, Rating 116

AR: N/A

Levis: 18/28 185 yds, 0TDs, 0INTs, Longest 25, Sacks 1, Rating 83.2

 

Bonus:

 

(4th round) Aiden O'Connell, LVR: 23/33 248 yds, 1TD, 0INT, Longest 33 yds, Sack 1, Rating 101.2

 

I'd say that Levis and Young look like rookie QBs, who also have bad weapons/offenses to manage.   Stroud looks like a top 16 QB already.  And O'Connell has been playing better than Young and Levis, IMO eye test, despite being a 4th round rookie on his 2nd HC (which may be an improvement from the 1st)

 

[Rhodelesstraveled]

I watched the Jags Hou and Car TN game and it is clear to me Houston has the best young QB in the league.  I also think Levis is going to be good.  TN OL is terrible but the kid can move in the pocket and has to.  He has a cannon.  He is not as polished as Stroud.  Stroud is already a top 7 QB.  Stroud outplayed Lawrence by a lot.  

Young is horrible.  Hard to believe Tepper went for him over the other QBs.  

[dw49]

22 minutes ago, Rhodelesstraveled said:

I watched the Jags Hou and Car TN game and it is clear to me Houston has the best young QB in the league.  I also think Levis is going to be good.  TN OL is terrible but the kid can move in the pocket and has to.  He has a cannon.  He is not as polished as Stroud.  Stroud is already a top 7 QB.  Stroud outplayed Lawrence by a lot.  

Young is horrible.  Hard to believe Tepper went for him over the other QBs.  

 

Insane that Young was taken at 1.1. Average at best arm talent and is tiny by NFL standards. I really believe that if he had thrown at the combine , he's at best the 3rd QB taken. Kind of screwed us as it's said that Teper forced his team into taking Young over Stroud. Now we have to deal with Stroud. Then again , maybe texans take Richardson at 2 ? 

[Boondoggle]

Young was riding that high of quarterbacking one of the best collections of talent in college ball, and the media being so in love with his personality.  It was groupthink plain and simple.

 

Just like it was groupthink that Levis fell.  I guarantee you that if that draft was re-held Levis would go very high, it would be Stroud then Levis or Richardson.  But that was not a new thing, it happens every once in a while in the NFL.  Teams just get in that groupthink mentality with certain guys, we saw it with Rodgers and Marino, just using two of the most worthy examples.

 

I do think Young has a chance to succeed because he's such a good kid and works very hard, plus he's smart.  There is a chance he can be a Brees type but lots of risk in that and he has a lot to prove and he's going to be a game manager or system type QB.

 

But Tepper right now is seeing the truth of his own ineptitude here.  It was clear they were taking the wrong QB at 1 overall.  You don't take a guy at the top of the draft who comes with a lot of questions based on size or arm strength or even who has red flags.  You let someone else take him too high, and if he falls through then you take him where you should which is round two a la Brees.

 

Either way the Colts did a good job.  Richardson is no Stroud but clearly he worked hard to learn the system and from here on out they need to condition him to use the pocket protections more.  I'm worried about him staying healthy basically, but that's a lot better than what Carolina fans are worrying about right now.

[Superman]

More of the same from CJ Stroud, plus a little extra mustard with some of those run plays. He's also holding the ball too long, and has developed a bad habit of turning his back to the play to escape pressure, which is something a lot of QBs are doing these days.

 

The Broncos have been better defensively, and could present a challenge. If the Jets haven't completely given up, I want to see that game in a couple weeks. Then the Browns a couple weeks after that, again, if they haven't given up by then.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

More of the same from CJ Stroud, plus a little extra mustard with some of those run plays. He's also holding the ball too long, and has developed a bad habit of turning his back to the play to escape pressure, which is something a lot of QBs are doing these days.

 

The Broncos have been better defensively, and could present a challenge. If the Jets haven't completely given up, I want to see that game in a couple weeks. Then the Browns a couple weeks after that, again, if they haven't given up by then.

Stroud is the real deal, he is doing things a QB like Herbert should be doing now and he is only a rookie. He is playing better than Herbert with a worse roster. 

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Stroud is the real deal, he is doing things a QB like Herbert should be doing now and he is only a rookie. He is playing better than Herbert with a worse roster. 

 

A good HC and OC together is a good thing for a young QB.

[Nate!]

Will be interesting to see Stroud’s growth as the Texans OC is almost a lock to be gone as a head coach.  Looking like so many openings so people will want to poach him and that will likely mean some further decimating of the offensive staff of the Texans

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Nate! said:

Will be interesting to see Stroud’s growth as the Texans OC is almost a lock to be gone as a head coach.  Looking like so many openings so people will want to poach him and that will likely mean some further decimating of the offensive staff of the Texans

He takes a lot of hits, only thing that will set him back if he gets injured and he could easily. We sacked him 7 times.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, Nate! said:

Will be interesting to see Stroud’s growth as the Texans OC is almost a lock to be gone as a head coach.  Looking like so many openings so people will want to poach him and that will likely mean some further decimating of the offensive staff of the Texans

This is why I am happy we hired an offensive guy. The system and Offensive plays will never change. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

This is why I am happy we hired an offensive guy. The system and Offensive plays will never change. 

So far hiring Shane has been one the best moves that Ballard has ever made. He is a lot better than Chuck or Reich IMO, at least so far.

[Superman]

I've watched a little more of Levis. His pocket presence isn't always terrible, he has some nice pocket movement and some decent escapes on tape. But when it's bad, it's really ugly.

[DougDew]

On 11/27/2023 at 2:02 PM, Boondoggle said:

Young was riding that high of quarterbacking one of the best collections of talent in college ball, and the media being so in love with his personality.  It was groupthink plain and simple.

 

Just like it was groupthink that Levis fell.  I guarantee you that if that draft was re-held Levis would go very high, it would be Stroud then Levis or Richardson.  But that was not a new thing, it happens every once in a while in the NFL.  Teams just get in that groupthink mentality with certain guys, we saw it with Rodgers and Marino, just using two of the most worthy examples.

I don't judge college talent like some others, but I have followed the draft long enough to understand the processes and the factors teams look at.

 

It was stupendously amazing to me how Young got away with virtually no testing.  For a guy who obviously has physicality questions.  I don't know if he refused to test, or simply wasn't asked, but any other year with any other QB, at least one pundit or reporter would have raised a red flag about it.  Maybe even calling it a character problem as well.

 

In a draft with 4 highly rated QBs, how could Bryce Young be the lock so early that he didn't have to matriculate the full evaluation process?

 

Groupthink could be the answer, but at least during the Marino and Rogers drafts there were talking heads raising questions about the stupidity of some teams letting those guys fall, IIRC.  This looks like a down right conspiracy coordinated by all pundits, media, and CAR.  Not saying that's the case because that's impossible and there is no gain in doing it anyway, but this is one big groupthink by several independent groups at the same time.  That's weird.

 

Was there fear of being the only person to step out on an island and say something?

 

And he may turn out to be good, and that's fine.  I'm still simply amazed that he didn't have to go through the full process.

 

Edit:  I take that back.  IIRC, Mel Kiper had Levis ranked #1 until the very end.  He wasn't buying into the popular opinion that Young was the best pro prospect. 

 

 

[OLD FAN MAN]

On 11/27/2023 at 2:02 PM, Boondoggle said:

Young was riding that high of quarterbacking one of the best collections of talent in college ball, and the media being so in love with his personality.  It was groupthink plain and simple.

 

Just like it was groupthink that Levis fell.  I guarantee you that if that draft was re-held Levis would go very high, it would be Stroud then Levis or Richardson.  But that was not a new thing, it happens every once in a while in the NFL.  Teams just get in that groupthink mentality with certain guys, we saw it with Rodgers and Marino, just using two of the most worthy examples.

 

I do think Young has a chance to succeed because he's such a good kid and works very hard, plus he's smart.  There is a chance he can be a Brees type but lots of risk in that and he has a lot to prove and he's going to be a game manager or system type QB.

 

But Tepper right now is seeing the truth of his own ineptitude here.  It was clear they were taking the wrong QB at 1 overall.  You don't take a guy at the top of the draft who comes with a lot of questions based on size or arm strength or even who has red flags.  You let someone else take him too high, and if he falls through then you take him where you should which is round two a la Brees.

 

Either way the Colts did a good job.  Richardson is no Stroud but clearly he worked hard to learn the system and from here on out they need to condition him to use the pocket protections more.  I'm worried about him staying healthy basically, but that's a lot better than what Carolina fans are worrying about right now.

carolina may have a top pick again, another qb

[Nate!]

4 minutes ago, OLD FAN MAN said:

carolina may have a top pick again, another qb

They traded their first to get Young.  They are riding Young at least another year

[OLD FAN MAN]

3 minutes ago, Nate! said:

They traded their first to get Young.  They are riding Young at least another year

imo they are the new browns top picks for years to come

[OLD FAN MAN]

5 minutes ago, OLD FAN MAN said:

imo they are the new browns top picks for years to come

i hope ballard does some trades with tepper for their draft picks

[bluephantom87]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:15 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

So far hiring Shane has been one the best moves that Ballard has ever made. He is a lot better than Chuck or Reich IMO, at least so far.

 

We could’ve had Josh McDaniels... Yikes!

[GoColts8818]

3 minutes ago, bluephantom87 said:

 

We could’ve had Josh McDaniels... Yikes!

They DID have McDaniels until he backed out on them.  Luckiest thing to ever happen to Ballard.

[Superman]

16 hours ago, DougDew said:

This looks like a down right conspiracy coordinated by all pundits, media, and CAR.  Not saying that's the case because that's impossible and there is no gain in doing it anyway, but this is one big groupthink by several independent groups at the same time.  That's weird.

 

Was there fear of being the only person to step out on an island and say something?

 

And he may turn out to be good, and that's fine.  I'm still simply amazed that he didn't have to go through the full process.

 

Edit:  I take that back.  IIRC, Mel Kiper had Levis ranked #1 until the very end.  He wasn't buying into the popular opinion that Young was the best pro prospect. 

 

Glad you added the edit. Several people felt that Bryce Young was not the clear #1. Some of them went with Levis, others went with Stroud. All pundits and media weren't in agreement.

 

And I don't think all teams had Bryce Young at the top of their boards. I think certain teams would have stayed away because of his size, and others would have preferred a different QB. But all it takes is one team to pull the trigger. Only the Bears had to like Mitchell Trubisky; only the Niners had to like Trey Lance.

 

Bryce Young is also not the first highly rated QB with question marks who declined to participate in parts of the evaluation. He won't be the last.

[RollerColt]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

Bryce Young is also not the first highly rated QB with question marks who declined to participate in parts of the evaluation. He won't be the last.

And it was a very smart strategy on his part. No need to add any more doubt by throwing. Play up one of his strengths, which was public speaking. He said and did all of the right things to convince Carolina. That's all that matters. 

 

And even if he doesn't have a long successful career, he's still making good money as the #1 overall. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if Williams declines to throw at the combine. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

And it was a very smart strategy on his part. No need to add any more doubt by throwing. Play up one of his strengths, which was public speaking. He said and did all of the right things to convince Carolina. That's all that matters. 

 

And even if he doesn't have a long successful career, he's still making good money as the #1 overall. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if Williams declines to throw at the combine. 

If you look at Michael Penix Jr and Bo Nix play, there is not 1 shred of evidence that Caleb Williams is better than either. I have watched all 3 closely and watched Washington and Oregon both beat his USC team. They all pretty much play the same teams too - same Comp. I am not saying Williams won't or can't be great in the NFL but the hype behind him when people are trying to say he is just good or better than Andrew Luck or Joe Burrow coming is Ka Ka to me. 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

And it was a very smart strategy on his part. No need to add any more doubt by throwing. Play up one of his strengths, which was public speaking. He said and did all of the right things to convince Carolina. That's all that matters. 

 

And even if he doesn't have a long successful career, he's still making good money as the #1 overall. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if Williams declines to throw at the combine. 

 

Young threw at his pro day and it was fine. It's not like his arm is deficient, he can make plenty of NFL throws. He just won't overpower anyone with his arm, especially if he's not throwing from a clean pocket and a stable base. He has a B level arm, which is true of a lot of NFL QBs. 

 

Caleb Williams probably has an A level arm. He might not throw at the Combine, but it won't be because he's concerned about people doubting his throwing ability. Some QBs just prefer the controlled environment at pro day, throwing to receivers they know and have been practicing with, rather than guys they just met who are trying to show off their own talents. 

 

To the bolded, there are smart people whose opinions I respect who were convinced on Young before the 2022 college season. One of them is JT O'Sullivan. I think he does a better job than any of these other Internet pundits, he knows his stuff, he explains it well, I've learned a ton watching his videos. And before the draft last year, after watching and breaking down all the top QBs, JT openly said he made his mind up on Bryce Young vs CJ Stroud from watching them at a joint workout the year before. He said Young threw the ball so impressively in that workout that he was convinced he was the better prospect. 

 

And that was shocking to me. Not that he would think Young was better, but that he made his mind up based primarily on one small piece of information among a mountain of available information. I KNOW that JT watches tape, and talks to people, and knows what he's talking about. He's not a power hungry owner, toying around with his pet project, whose wife fell in love with Bryce Young during an interview. So if JT can be overwhelmed by a bias that was formed at one private workout -- and plainly acknowledge it on video -- then I can only imagine how susceptible scouts, coaches, GMs and owners can be to their own biases.

 

And that's true for all of us, really. Once people make their minds up, they don't like to change their opinion. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Destin Adams had a tweet earlier this week and said he believes Young was off Colts board. He had it Richardson, Stroud, and Levis. He believes colts would have taken Levis over Young.  

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

Once people make their minds up, they don't like to change their opinion. 

It's natural and human to be like that. Because if you're wrong, then you automatically assume something is wrong with yourself. It's not a good feeling. 

 

I've noticed JT still as of this month believes Young is top level talent. 

 

We've had this conversion before, in that nearly all QBs who enter the NFL have the talent to be successful. It's what surrounds them that sets apart the greats. A stable environment with the coaching staff, good offensive players to rely on, the right scheme that plays into the QBs strengths, the right teachers or mentors to keep them on a positive and fulfilling path. There are so many factors that all lead into a rookie being successful or not. It's no wonder it's so hard and rare to get a franchise QB when any number of things can go wrong and derail the process. 

 

Just now, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Destin Adams had a tweet earlier this week and said he believes Young was off Colts board. He had it Richardson, Stroud, and Levis. He believes colts would have taken Levis over Young.  

I believe that. I really do think that by the time of the draft, we had made up our minds that Richardson was the guy.