Colts select QB Anthony Richardson Florida (merge)

[MikeCurtis]

15 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

Not counting QB sneaks he will run 10 times a game... or less.

Similar to Hurts.

Agreed

[krunk]

Im not certain that Richardson will have to run 10 or more times a game.  I don't believe it will be exactly like Philly was because Philly did not have Jonathan Taylor.  I think Philly had to make more use of the QB legs than we do.  There's going to be some games where we may need to, but overall I don't think we are as pressed to do so as they were. 

[VikingsFanInChennai]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:03 AM, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I never said it was inside info. I also said it really had nothing to do with which quarterback we would take but I found it interesting because we never found out. Now the draft is over I can say what it was. During the draft process we heard a lot of teams that took these QB out to dinner during the combine. We never heard the colts did. But I was told that colts actually did take stroud and Richardson out to dinner during the combine. Don’t know if that means they were the top two on their board but it’s interesting since no one ever knew about it.

Thank you for explaining that tidbit. 

 

I read that Panthers took 3 of top 4 QBs in the ẹve of their Pro Day for dinner, and Raiders took the other QB, I think, Richardson for dinner. 

 

Only the ẹve dinner comes out to light and makes news I believe, as the news organizations have their presence in the local towns. 

 

Indianapolis has the advantage of hosting the Combine, so they could host a number of players during that time. Teams can easily have lot of opportunities for breakfast, lunch and dinner or a Golf session like Steichen did.

 

These little news we get to know are just only a part of the whole data of which teams meet which prospects when, and before the draft too much noise is made out of every little information, no one outside the teams knows full information in proper context. 

[VikingsFanInChennai]

20 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

but not to below zero. (I don't know if you are being facetious or not)  you must see how silly that sounds.  the dude was executive of the year.  that has to count for something.  even a 1.  

Thank you guys, got a better picture now. 

 

As I see it, if Grigson is holding a high level job in player personnel department still, maybe he's good at scouting or just having the process set up for everything regarding personnel evaluations or management. 

 

We don't even know for what exactly Vikings rely on him in the whole picture, so I have to assume new Vikings GM has his own process of evaluation or decision making. 

[gspdx]

46 minutes ago, krunk said:

Im not certain that Richardson will have to run 10 or more times a game.  I don't believe it will be exactly like Philly was because Philly did not have Jonathan Taylor.  I think Philly had to make more use of the QB legs than we do.  There's going to be some games where we may need to, but overall I don't think we are as pressed to do so as they were. 

 

I hope he doesn't have to run too often.  Pick his spots, avoid big hits as much as possible, and use his legs as a game changer when necessary.  Important to keep the defense guessing though; run enough to keep them looking for it.

 

It will be a skill he needs to learn I think.  Guys that want to win will do anything to help their team.  They need to learn the best way to help the team is TO BE ON THE FIELD.  

 

But what I really want to see is how he develops as a passer.  From the film I have seen he does have a knack for keeping his eyes down field when he starts to move out of the pocket.  That is one of Mahomes best skills.  He always looks like he is ready to make a pass.  That and being able to deliver the ball from just about any angle while on the run.  If AR can develop some of that he could be deadly.

 

It will be exciting to see if he develops those skills.

[shasta519]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:55 AM, NewColtsFan said:

You keep writing that sentence…. 
 

“There is evidence that Grigson has skill as an evaluator of talent.”

 

Yet, oddly enough, you do not offer any of that evidence.    No names.   Not from the draft or from free agency. 
 

Posters here are asking you.   What?  Evidence?

 

 

I think the fact that he continues to be employed and respected by other respected GMs is evidence that his input is valued. And that input would like be related to scouting and roster construction. I am not an appeal to authority kind of person but I also think judging a man's entire career on a few drafts (in his first go-around as a GM) is absurd. Especially against the backdrop of his team's record during that.

 

 

[Superman]

59 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I think the fact that he continues to be employed and respected by other respected GMs is evidence that his input is valued. And that input would like be related to scouting and roster construction. I am not an appeal to authority kind of person but I also think judging a man's entire career on a few drafts (in his first go-around as a GM) is absurd. Especially against the backdrop of his team's record during that.

 

I don't think Grigson did a good job building the roster, and he made several big, obvious mistakes in his time here. Most of his draft picks were out of the league by 2019, which is stunning -- not gone from the Colts, but totally out of the NFL.

 

But I also think the circumstances were challenging. He and Pagano obviously didn't see things the same way at times, and maybe that was exacerbated by Pagano's three month absence. Then Irsay was out of the picture for a while. A lot of weird things happened that could have undermined their relationship, and when you have the two main football guys pulling in different directions, it probably makes it difficult to draft effectively. I'm not saying any of this to excuse Grigson, and I think some of this stuff was mostly his fault. 

 

I bring it up to suggest that maybe his draft record isn't the best reflection of his ability to evaluate players. Maybe his role with the Vikings is less about player evaluation, maybe he's really good at overseeing the personnel staff, scheduling, compiling, other logistical stuff. Maybe he's really well connected after 20 plus years in the NFL, and uses those connections to bring value to their operation; he's served on several NFL committees over the years. I don't know for sure what the Senior VP of Player Personnel is supposed to be responsible for, and I bet that role varies from team to team. 

 

He doesn't have the greatest public reputation, but he's worked with some really highly rated front office guys and coaches -- Andrew Berry, Howie Roseman, Andy Reid, John Schneider, etc. -- so he obviously hasn't been blacklisted. The only people who actually seem to have anything negative to say about him are connected with the Colts, so maybe his reputation isn't as bad around the league as it is in Indy.

 

I'm not really here to defend him. He was a bad GM, I think he's mostly responsible for ruining Andrew Luck, and I don't care if he's remembered as the worst front office exec of all time. But I think it's obvious that he brings some value to the table for an NFL team, otherwise he wouldn't still be getting cushy exec jobs.

[Stephen]

39 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think Grigson did a good job building the roster, and he made several big, obvious mistakes in his time here. Most of his draft picks were out of the league by 2019, which is stunning -- not gone from the Colts, but totally out of the NFL.

 

But I also think the circumstances were challenging. He and Pagano obviously didn't see things the same way at times, and maybe that was exacerbated by Pagano's three month absence. Then Irsay was out of the picture for a while. A lot of weird things happened that could have undermined their relationship, and when you have the two main football guys pulling in different directions, it probably makes it difficult to draft effectively. I'm not saying any of this to excuse Grigson, and I think some of this stuff was mostly his fault. 

 

I bring it up to suggest that maybe his draft record isn't the best reflection of his ability to evaluate players. Maybe his role with the Vikings is less about player evaluation, maybe he's really good at overseeing the personnel staff, scheduling, compiling, other logistical stuff. Maybe he's really well connected after 20 plus years in the NFL, and uses those connections to bring value to their operation; he's served on several NFL committees over the years. I don't know for sure what the Senior VP of Player Personnel is supposed to be responsible for, and I bet that role varies from team to team. 

 

He doesn't have the greatest public reputation, but he's worked with some really highly rated front office guys and coaches -- Andrew Berry, Howie Roseman, Andy Reid, John Schneider, etc. -- so he obviously hasn't been blacklisted. The only people who actually seem to have anything negative to say about him are connected with the Colts, so maybe his reputation isn't as bad around the league as it is in Indy.

 

I'm not really here to defend him. He was a bad GM, I think he's mostly responsible for ruining Andrew Luck, and I don't care if he's remembered as the worst front office exec of all time. But I think it's obvious that he brings some value to the table for an NFL team, otherwise he wouldn't still be getting cushy exec jobs.

He did get t.y. hilton right had some success with fleener allen and moncrief though they all flamed out. Also ryan kelly

[stitches]

2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

I think the fact that he continues to be employed and respected by other respected GMs is evidence that his input is valued. And that input would like be related to scouting and roster construction. I am not an appeal to authority kind of person but I also think judging a man's entire career on a few drafts (in his first go-around as a GM) is absurd. Especially against the backdrop of his team's record during that.

 

 

I think he brings in some value to teams. This league is so incestuous and works so much through who you know and who you've worked with that you have to have done some incredibly heinous stuff to completely be out of the league, especially after getting as high in the hierarchy as Grigson did(GM). At the very least his connections and experience in the processes of the league is probably something teams that have hired him since his ousting from the Colts value in him. 

 

But his player evaluations speak for themselves. There were some insane stats about his draft picks retention in the NFL. A ton of them not only didn't make it with the Colts but were out of the league almost immediately after being cut by the Colts. Both him and Pagano were carried for half a decade by a generational talent at QB until he broke down because of what those two and those under them did or failed to do to support our franchise QB. 

[shasta519]

22 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 When introducing Grigson as our new GM, our owner said he would be mentoring him. Like when Irsay traded for Richardson or when he made Gosder the highest pd RT in the league. This was during "bad times" for Irsay.

 Irsay was definitely part of the Grigson team building problem. JMO!

 

Yep. That's a big piece of context that rarely gets mentioned. Irsay's fingerprints are all over many of those roster moves. It used to be that once a FA came to the Colts complex, they didn't leave without signing. Well, who would be the one signing those checks?

 

And at the time, Irsay was on Twitter talking about jet-setting with briefcases of money to go sign FAs.

 

Irsay's meddling/control, on top of the personal issues, certainly was not that the ideal environment for a first-time GM. And I think Irsay knows it because I don't think I have ever heard him mention a bad thing about Grigson. In fact, he defended Grigson up until he let him go.

 

That doesn't excuse Grigson for making some bad draft picks or bad FA signings, but I believe the blame should be shared with Irsay and Pagano (who Irsay gave more personnel power in the last 2-3 years). 

 

But instead, Grigson is mostly the lone scapegoat for everything bad that happened, as well as the villain of the Andrew Luck story.

 

 

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think Grigson did a good job building the roster, and he made several big, obvious mistakes in his time here. Most of his draft picks were out of the league by 2019, which is stunning -- not gone from the Colts, but totally out of the NFL.

 

But I also think the circumstances were challenging. He and Pagano obviously didn't see things the same way at times, and maybe that was exacerbated by Pagano's three month absence. Then Irsay was out of the picture for a while. A lot of weird things happened that could have undermined their relationship, and when you have the two main football guys pulling in different directions, it probably makes it difficult to draft effectively. I'm not saying any of this to excuse Grigson, and I think some of this stuff was mostly his fault. 

 

I bring it up to suggest that maybe his draft record isn't the best reflection of his ability to evaluate players. Maybe his role with the Vikings is less about player evaluation, maybe he's really good at overseeing the personnel staff, scheduling, compiling, other logistical stuff. Maybe he's really well connected after 20 plus years in the NFL, and uses those connections to bring value to their operation; he's served on several NFL committees over the years. I don't know for sure what the Senior VP of Player Personnel is supposed to be responsible for, and I bet that role varies from team to team. 

 

He doesn't have the greatest public reputation, but he's worked with some really highly rated front office guys and coaches -- Andrew Berry, Howie Roseman, Andy Reid, John Schneider, etc. -- so he obviously hasn't been blacklisted. The only people who actually seem to have anything negative to say about him are connected with the Colts, so maybe his reputation isn't as bad around the league as it is in Indy.

 

I'm not really here to defend him. He was a bad GM, I think he's mostly responsible for ruining Andrew Luck, and I don't care if he's remembered as the worst front office exec of all time. But I think it's obvious that he brings some value to the table for an NFL team, otherwise he wouldn't still be getting cushy exec jobs.

 

I agree regarding draft record. I don't think it's the best reflection of his ability to evaluate talent either.

 

And it's certainly not enough to warrant the extreme narratives about those teams being "garbage rosters" and Grigson being referred to as the "worst GM ever." That's the stuff I really take issue with. I don't think anybody can say Grigson did a good job. But I don't think we can say he did a terrible one either. And if that comes off as defending Grigson, so be it. But mostly I am just defending objectivity. 

 

The drafting was bad. He had no feel for Day 3, especially from 2013-15. But those also were sandwiched between a great draft class in 2012 and and a decent one in 2016 (5/8 are still in the NFL). So it's possible that Grigson would have stacked better from 2017-on, especially with another HC (who he saw better with eye to eye). Obviously, he wasn't going to get the chance here, but someday he might.

 

It's not surprising that the 2012 and 2016 drafts happened to be the only two drafts where the Colts actually had significant draft capital, given how much of a crapshoot it is.

 

But I also think injuries make those classes worse as well:

• Jack Mewhort and Hugh Thornton were solid interior OL players, but couldn't stay healthy.
• Donte Moncrief seemed like a promising WR until he got hurt in year 3 and 4. 
• Henry Anderson looked like a potential stud 3-4 DE as as rookie, but then got hurt and kept getting hurt.
• Dwayne Allen was an All-Rookie TE and looked like he could be a future PB TE, but then got hurt and was never the same.

All of those were Day 2 picks...the type you build a core base of talent around. And it was 5 of the 9 Day 2 picks (more than half) they had from 2012-15. I think the perception is different if some or all of those guys don't get hurt. 

 

And it wasn't just draft picks getting hurt. FAs like Gosder Cherilus, Donald Thomas and Arthur Jones all kept getting hurt. Over the span of 2012-14, the Colts were most injured team in the NFL (per Adjusted Games Lost). And ten years ago, injuries were much more impactful than they are now. It wasn't so easy to come back and play, let alone at a high level. I think that played an underrated role in the performance of the OL as well. How different is the Colts OL if Smith and Glow kept getting hurt after 2018?

 

But despite that, as well as any issues behind the scenes, Grigson's teams were also objectively successful. They went 49-31 and 3-3 in the playoffs from 2012-16. Even without Luck, those teams had a winning record (albeit a small sample size of games). They also beat very good teams, like SF, SEA and DEN in 2013. The 2014 team went to the AFCCG after holding CIN and DEN to 23 combined points. That team had 7 PBers, 5 of which were Grigson players. I just don't think you can take that away from the GM of the team.

 

So it sort of boggles my mind how some people can call those teams garbage and just how that era is perceived overall. And I think other GMs in the league do recognize the successes and are able to separate his draft record from his overall value as an exec. And if anybody would know that it's possible to have a bad draft, it's other GMs (just look at some of the picks that Schneider has made over the years).

 

I also think it's possible for people to learn and get better. We have this outlook on players, why not execs? Hell, most of this fanbase was stoked about Raheem Morris as HC, even though his HC record was awful. He was lauded for working his way back up through different, lower-level coaching jobs. I don't see a lot of difference between that and what Grigson has been doing, yet Grigson's jobs somehow hold much less weight and don't mean anything regarding his ability as a talent evaluator, while Morris' jobs show he is a good coach and ready to be a HC again?

 

Like I have said many times before, I just don't think Grigson gets a fair shake from most of this fanbase or the local media. And I think the perception outside Indy is much more objective, which is why I put stock into him continuing to get those jobs.

[stitches]

 

 

[ChuggaBeer]

Anyone else glad we didn't get stuck with Levis and had a choice not to choose him?

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, ChuggaBeer said:

Anyone else glad we didn't get stuck with Levis and had a choice not to choose him?

We will answer that after the next two seasons

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 hours ago, ChuggaBeer said:

Anyone else glad we didn't get stuck with Levis and had a choice not to choose him?

Me - 

[stitches]

8 hours ago, ChuggaBeer said:

Anyone else glad we didn't get stuck with Levis and had a choice not to choose him?

Me, but I'm also ready to move on from giving daily or even weekly attention to Levis.

[csmopar]

33 minutes ago, stitches said:

Me, but I'm also ready to move on from giving daily or even weekly attention to Levis.

Yep agreed. Plus what’s the point of constantly stirring the pot just to drag on the kid or his supporters. 
 

Especially when no one has played an nfl game since the draft 

[DiogoSales]

17 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

I agree regarding draft record. I don't think it's the best reflection of his ability to evaluate talent either.

 

And it's certainly not enough to warrant the extreme narratives about those teams being "garbage rosters" and Grigson being referred to as the "worst GM ever." That's the stuff I really take issue with. I don't think anybody can say Grigson did a good job. But I don't think we can say he did a terrible one either. And if that comes off as defending Grigson, so be it. But mostly I am just defending objectivity. 

 

The drafting was bad. He had no feel for Day 3, especially from 2013-15. But those also were sandwiched between a great draft class in 2012 and and a decent one in 2016 (5/8 are still in the NFL). So it's possible that Grigson would have stacked better from 2017-on, especially with another HC (who he saw better with eye to eye). Obviously, he wasn't going to get the chance here, but someday he might.

 

It's not surprising that the 2012 and 2016 drafts happened to be the only two drafts where the Colts actually had significant draft capital, given how much of a crapshoot it is.

 

But I also think injuries make those classes worse as well:

• Jack Mewhort and Hugh Thornton were solid interior OL players, but couldn't stay healthy.
• Donte Moncrief seemed like a promising WR until he got hurt in year 3 and 4. 
• Henry Anderson looked like a potential stud 3-4 DE as as rookie, but then got hurt and kept getting hurt.
• Dwayne Allen was an All-Rookie TE and looked like he could be a future PB TE, but then got hurt and was never the same.

All of those were Day 2 picks...the type you build a core base of talent around. And it was 5 of the 9 Day 2 picks (more than half) they had from 2012-15. I think the perception is different if some or all of those guys don't get hurt. 

 

And it wasn't just draft picks getting hurt. FAs like Gosder Cherilus, Donald Thomas and Arthur Jones all kept getting hurt. Over the span of 2012-14, the Colts were most injured team in the NFL (per Adjusted Games Lost). And ten years ago, injuries were much more impactful than they are now. It wasn't so easy to come back and play, let alone at a high level. I think that played an underrated role in the performance of the OL as well. How different is the Colts OL if Smith and Glow kept getting hurt after 2018?

 

But despite that, as well as any issues behind the scenes, Grigson's teams were also objectively successful. They went 49-31 and 3-3 in the playoffs from 2012-16. Even without Luck, those teams had a winning record (albeit a small sample size of games). They also beat very good teams, like SF, SEA and DEN in 2013. The 2014 team went to the AFCCG after holding CIN and DEN to 23 combined points. That team had 7 PBers, 5 of which were Grigson players. I just don't think you can take that away from the GM of the team.

 

So it sort of boggles my mind how some people can call those teams garbage and just how that era is perceived overall. And I think other GMs in the league do recognize the successes and are able to separate his draft record from his overall value as an exec. And if anybody would know that it's possible to have a bad draft, it's other GMs (just look at some of the picks that Schneider has made over the years).

 

I also think it's possible for people to learn and get better. We have this outlook on players, why not execs? Hell, most of this fanbase was stoked about Raheem Morris as HC, even though his HC record was awful. He was lauded for working his way back up through different, lower-level coaching jobs. I don't see a lot of difference between that and what Grigson has been doing, yet Grigson's jobs somehow hold much less weight and don't mean anything regarding his ability as a talent evaluator, while Morris' jobs show he is a good coach and ready to be a HC again?

 

Like I have said many times before, I just don't think Grigson gets a fair shake from most of this fanbase or the local media. And I think the perception outside Indy is much more objective, which is why I put stock into him continuing to get those jobs.

 

There's not a lot of people that took the time to look at it objectively like that, good post.

[shasta519]

21 hours ago, stitches said:

I think he brings in some value to teams. This league is so incestuous and works so much through who you know and who you've worked with that you have to have done some incredibly heinous stuff to completely be out of the league, especially after getting as high in the hierarchy as Grigson did(GM). At the very least his connections and experience in the processes of the league is probably something teams that have hired him since his ousting from the Colts value in him. 

 

But his player evaluations speak for themselves. There were some insane stats about his draft picks retention in the NFL. A ton of them not only didn't make it with the Colts but were out of the league almost immediately after being cut by the Colts. Both him and Pagano were carried for half a decade by a generational talent at QB until he broke down because of what those two and those under them did or failed to do to support our franchise QB. 

 

It's a boy's club. But we are talking about 'big boys' like Howie Roseman, John Schneider, Andrew Berry and Adolfo-Mensah...all vouching for him.

 

Berry worked with Grigson from 2012-15. He would have seen what was going on. Yet, when Berry got the GM gig in CLE, Grigson was one of Berry's post-draft FO moves (similar to when Ballard brought in Brown and Dodds).

 

When Adolfo-Mensah got the MIN GM job, he brought Grigson with him as his SR VP of Player Personnel. Not entirely familiar with the MIN FO structure, but he's listed first so I am pretty sure Grigson is the equivalent of Dodds in IND.

 

So it took Grigson only 5 years to shake off his Colts GM tenure stink and get back to ONE step away from another GM gig. Anybody else that is commendable and respectable, but with some (probably most) Colts fans, it seems to hold no weight and is proof of nothing.

 

Grigson's player evaluation was bad more often than not. But I think it's more that Colts fans care far more about some bad draft picks that happened 8-10 years ago than other execs. And it's not like those other execs haven't made their share of crap picks (so they know it can and does happen).

 

And I just think they view that era (and Grigson in general) much differently than this fanbase and media. It's true that he's one of them, but they don't owe him anything. I think it's pretty safe to assume he's a trusted voice. For what? Who knows. But I don't think he's just getting these jobs if he wasn't up to the task.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, DiogoSales said:

 

There's not a lot of people that took the time to look at it objectively like that, good post.

 

Thanks. I just think there is a lot of context and objectivity to that time in IND and it's worth being said. But I don't mean to preach...people can decide for themselves. Grigson is never coming back to IND, so it doesn't really matter.

 

 

[stitches]

10 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

It's a boy's club. But we are talking about 'big boys' like Howie Roseman, John Schneider, Andrew Berry and Adolfo-Mensah...all vouching for him.

 

Berry worked with Grigson from 2012-15. He would have seen what was going on. Yet, when Berry got the GM gig in CLE, Grigson was one of Berry's post-draft FO moves (similar to when Ballard brought in Brown and Dodds).

 

When Adolfo-Mensah got the MIN GM job, he brought Grigson with him as his SR VP of Player Personnel. Not entirely familiar with the MIN FO structure, but he's listed first so I am pretty sure Grigson is the equivalent of Dodds in IND.

 

So it took Grigson only 5 years to shake off his Colts GM tenure stink and get back to ONE step away from another GM gig. Anybody else that is commendable and respectable, but with some (probably most) Colts fans, it seems to hold no weight and is proof of nothing.

 

Grigson's player evaluation was bad more often than not. But I think it's more that Colts fans care far more about some bad draft picks that happened 8-10 years ago than other execs. And it's not like those other execs haven't made their share of crap picks (so they know it can and does happen).

 

And I just think they view that era (and Grigson in general) much differently than this fanbase and media. It's true that he's one of them, but they don't owe him anything. I think it's pretty safe to assume he's a trusted voice. For what? Who knows. But I don't think he's just getting these jobs if he wasn't up to the task.

If you had to give it a probability % of Grigson getting another shot as a GM in the NFL in the next... 10 years, what do you think the % would be? 

 

Lets say tomorrow Ballard decides to step down for some unknown reason. Would you want Grigson back? 

 

And just so I don't get accused of not answering my own hypotheticals the answers for me would be - about 0.01% on the first one and "HELL NO" on the second one. Maybe I'm biased, but I believe I have very good reasons for my leaning in this occasion. And I'm saying this, while acknowledging that in some regards my philosophies align closer with Grigson's than with Ballard's.  

[#12.]

11 hours ago, Stephen said:

We will answer that after the next two seasons

 

Yep, a bright spotlight will be on this decision.  You could have traded up.  You could have had any of the other three QBs.  Two of them will be playing in your division while your old coach has the 3rd.  If the Texans, Titans and/or Frank are successful and you're not, it will be front and center.

[throwing BBZ]

17 hours ago, stitches said:

 

 

 

 Woot! Woot! I'm old school so for now I will use an old adage.

Get on board the A - train, it's about to roll.

 I have high expectations that AR will improve quickly. He impresses with his maturity.

 

 Nobody cares about Grigson. You could take this fest private.

[Blueblazes]

Yes, I'm sure we are all hoping he brings his 17 TDs passing and 9 INTs to the Colts and his 2,549 yards to the Colts. That will make us become a Super Bowl contender. 

[cdgacoltsfan]

39 minutes ago, Blueblazes said:

Yes, I'm sure we are all hoping he brings his 17 TDs passing and 9 INTs to the Colts and his 2,549 yards to the Colts. That will make us become a Super Bowl contender. 

I agree... but don't forget to add another 5 games because it's a 12 game 2012 sample  . So maybe 26 tds , 3500 passing and 900 rushing.

Much better than those 3 wins and 26 interceptions someone else threw his first season.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

On Monday the rookies will get to practice with the Vets.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

 

It's a boy's club. But we are talking about 'big boys' like Howie Roseman, John Schneider, Andrew Berry and Adolfo-Mensah...all vouching for him.

 

Berry worked with Grigson from 2012-15. He would have seen what was going on. Yet, when Berry got the GM gig in CLE, Grigson was one of Berry's post-draft FO moves (similar to when Ballard brought in Brown and Dodds).

 

When Adolfo-Mensah got the MIN GM job, he brought Grigson with him as his SR VP of Player Personnel. Not entirely familiar with the MIN FO structure, but he's listed first so I am pretty sure Grigson is the equivalent of Dodds in IND.

 

So it took Grigson only 5 years to shake off his Colts GM tenure stink and get back to ONE step away from another GM gig. Anybody else that is commendable and respectable, but with some (probably most) Colts fans, it seems to hold no weight and is proof of nothing.

 

Grigson's player evaluation was bad more often than not. But I think it's more that Colts fans care far more about some bad draft picks that happened 8-10 years ago than other execs. And it's not like those other execs haven't made their share of crap picks (so they know it can and does happen).

 

And I just think they view that era (and Grigson in general) much differently than this fanbase and media. It's true that he's one of them, but they don't owe him anything. I think it's pretty safe to assume he's a trusted voice. For what? Who knows. But I don't think he's just getting these jobs if he wasn't up to the task.

NOTE:  Long post ahead….

The issue you’re not seeing is this….   
 

This discussion was over whether or not Grigson can be viewed as a good judge pf talent.    The three jobs he had between the time he was fired by the Colts and the time he was hired by Minnesota were all temporary jobs, not staff jobs.   He was paid to come in and give his opinion for consideration.  His was not the final voice in any decision.  
 

His Wiki profile refers to those three titles as NFL Executive,  NFL Consultant,  NFL Advisor.    5 years, three temp jobs.   
 

As you yourself noted, the NFL has some boys club mentality to it, and Grigson has made friends.   I’m glad he found work.  But those jobs don’t prove he’s a good judge of talent.  It proves he’s got friends.   If he does a good job in Minnesota THAT will prove he’s better at his job this time around than he was with the Colts. 
 

As to his time with the Colts, in another post you listed all the good players that got hurt.   The problem is, the same thing happened to the other 31 GMs too.  They had good players who got hurt.  
 

Under Grigson, the roster got older and less talented, less athletic, less skilled.   That’s in part how the team went from 11-5 three straight years to 8-8 in back to back seasons.   The roster deteriorated around Luck.  You can point to Luck’s injury in 15 but not 16. 
 

And to your point about fans being unfairly critical of Grigson,  I’m actually shocked you went there with Grigson because of the following…..

 

1.   He was HATED by his own hand picked head coach.   Do you not remember the marriage counselor that Irsay brought in to try to patch things up?   Unprecedented in NFL history. 

 

2.  He was HATED by the assistants.  Do you not remember the quotes from anonymous assistants that said Grigson was ordering the staff to start/play Trent Richardson to help save RG’s reputation?

 

3.  He was HATED by the players.  When Grigson pushed Pat McAfee into a contract stalemate Irsay ordered him to get the deal done.  Reggie Wayne talked about walking down hallways and Grigson would walk past right past him as if he didn’t exist. 

4.   He literally publicly blamed his franchise quarterback and his big second contract as the reason there wouldn’t be enough money to spend on free agency to improve the team.   Who does that?   It’s one thing to think it,  but who says that publicly?  

 

None of these four stories goes to his ability to judge talent.  But it goes to your claim that fans aren’t being fair to Grigson.   I think that’s completely false.   I think you’re being way too kind to him. 
 

I don’t rule out that he might do a better job this time around, maybe he’s learned from his mistakes?   But he couldn't possibly do worse. 

[cdgacoltsfan]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

NOTE:  Long post ahead….

The issue you’re not seeing is this….   
 

This discussion was over whether or not Grigson can be viewed as a good judge pf talent.    The three jobs he had between the time he was fired by the Colts and the time he was hired by Minnesota were all temporary jobs, not staff jobs.   He was paid to come in and give his opinion for consideration.  His was not the final voice in any decision.  
 

His Wiki profile refers to those three titles as NFL Executive,  NFL Consultant,  NFL Advisor.    5 years, three temp jobs.   
 

As you yourself noted, the NFL has some boys club mentality to it, and Grigson has made friends.   I’m glad he found work.  But those jobs don’t prove he’s a good judge of talent.  It proves he’s got friends.   If he does a good job in Minnesota THAT will prove he’s better at his job this time around than he was with the Colts. 
 

As to his time with the Colts, in another post you listed all the good players that got hurt.   The problem is, the same thing happened to the other 31 GMs too.  They had good players who got hurt.  
 

Under Grigson, the roster got older and less talented, less athletic, less skilled.   That’s in part how the team went from 11-5 three straight years to 8-8 in back to back seasons.   The roster deteriorated around Luck.  You can point to Luck’s injury in 15 but not 16. 
 

And to your point about fans being unfairly critical of Grigson,  I’m actually shocked you went there with Grigson because of the following…..

 

1.   He was HATED by his own hand picked head coach.   Do you not remember the marriage counselor that Irsay brought in to try to patch things up?   Unprecedented in NFL history. 

 

2.  He was HATED by the assistants.  Do you not remember the quotes from anonymous assistants that said Grigson was ordering the staff to start/play Trent Richardson to help save RG’s reputation?

 

3.  He was HATED by the players.  When Grigson pushed Pat McAfee into a contract stalemate Irsay ordered him to get the deal done.  Reggie Wayne talked about walking down hallways and Grigson would walk past right past him as if he didn’t exist. 

4.   He literally publicly blamed his franchise quarterback and his big second contract as the reason there wouldn’t be enough money to spend on free agency to improve the team.   Who does that?   It’s one thing to think it,  but who says that publicly?  

 

None of these four stories goes to his ability to judge talent.  But it goes to your claim that fans aren’t being fair to Grigson.   I think that’s completely false.   I think you’re being way too kind to him. 
 

I don’t rule out that he might do a better job this time around, maybe he’s learned from his mistakes?   But he couldn't possibly do worse. 

Not sure why this Grigson battle is in an AR thread. Can you two either take it private, start a new thread ....or get a room,?

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Not sure why this Grigson battle is in an AR thread. Can you two either take it private, start a new thread ....or get a room,?

[stitches]

 

 

I am this close to pronouncing AR a front runner for the MVP...  

[stitches]

 

 

 

[stitches]

3 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

On Monday the rookies will get to practice with the Vets.

I was looking at the off-season schedule dates and I couldn't find anything for next week. Weird.. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

I was looking at the off-season schedule dates and I couldn't find anything for next week. Weird.. 

just saw one of the media guys mention it when asked. Maybe he had dated wrong.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, stitches said:

I was looking at the off-season schedule dates and I couldn't find anything for next week. Weird.. 

Looks like may 23rd is when they officially have a practice.  Maybe he just meant rookies can come back in the building.

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

just saw one of the media guys mention it when asked. Maybe he had dated wrong.

I heard the media talking about it too... it's possible there is some sort of OTAs going on next week. Just weird that it's not in the official schedule... 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/colts/news/colts-offseason-program-dates-announced-otas-minicamp

 

 

[shasta519]

23 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

NOTE:  Long post ahead….

The issue you’re not seeing is this….   
 

This discussion was over whether or not Grigson can be viewed as a good judge pf talent.    The three jobs he had between the time he was fired by the Colts and the time he was hired by Minnesota were all temporary jobs, not staff jobs.   He was paid to come in and give his opinion for consideration.  His was not the final voice in any decision.  
 

His Wiki profile refers to those three titles as NFL Executive,  NFL Consultant,  NFL Advisor.    5 years, three temp jobs.   
 

As you yourself noted, the NFL has some boys club mentality to it, and Grigson has made friends.   I’m glad he found work.  But those jobs don’t prove he’s a good judge of talent.  It proves he’s got friends.   If he does a good job in Minnesota THAT will prove he’s better at his job this time around than he was with the Colts. 
 

As to his time with the Colts, in another post you listed all the good players that got hurt.   The problem is, the same thing happened to the other 31 GMs too.  They had good players who got hurt.  
 

Under Grigson, the roster got older and less talented, less athletic, less skilled.   That’s in part how the team went from 11-5 three straight years to 8-8 in back to back seasons.   The roster deteriorated around Luck.  You can point to Luck’s injury in 15 but not 16. 
 

And to your point about fans being unfairly critical of Grigson,  I’m actually shocked you went there with Grigson because of the following…..

 

1.   He was HATED by his own hand picked head coach.   Do you not remember the marriage counselor that Irsay brought in to try to patch things up?   Unprecedented in NFL history. 

 

2.  He was HATED by the assistants.  Do you not remember the quotes from anonymous assistants that said Grigson was ordering the staff to start/play Trent Richardson to help save RG’s reputation?

 

3.  He was HATED by the players.  When Grigson pushed Pat McAfee into a contract stalemate Irsay ordered him to get the deal done.  Reggie Wayne talked about walking down hallways and Grigson would walk past right past him as if he didn’t exist. 

4.   He literally publicly blamed his franchise quarterback and his big second contract as the reason there wouldn’t be enough money to spend on free agency to improve the team.   Who does that?   It’s one thing to think it,  but who says that publicly?  

 

None of these four stories goes to his ability to judge talent.  But it goes to your claim that fans aren’t being fair to Grigson.   I think that’s completely false.   I think you’re being way too kind to him. 
 

I don’t rule out that he might do a better job this time around, maybe he’s learned from his mistakes?   But he couldn't possibly do worse. 

 

The roster did deteriorate with Grigson. And it was time for him a change. But going 8-8 in b2b seasons is not some epic failure. And 2015 was actually a fairly impressive achievement, given that Luck got hurt and missed 9 games (while also having by far his worst statistical season). Without Luck, they went 6-3.

 

I think the rest of these are largely media-driven narratives:

 

1. I am pretty sure Irsay made the call on hiring Pagano, at least it was reported that way. But HCs and GMs not getting along is not unprecedented. Both have said what was reported was way overblown. 

 

The reason that Grigson is seen as the villain in that saga is because of intentional leaks, from Pagano. Of course they made Grigson look bad...they were designed to do that. Somebody was about to get fired...it was CYA time. And Pagano used willing media members (Kravitz and Doyel, naturally) to level all complaints about TRich and Werner (after Pagano was talking about the leaps that Werner was making)...or that he was forced to work with Luck's guy Pep (who he eventually pushed out for his buddy Chud). 

 

Pagano shares just as much blame as Grigson IMO. I don't know if they were true or made up, but regardless, a HC leaking to the press is a bush league move. He should have been fired right there, along with Grigson. And the toxicity between the two was clearly mutual.

 

2. Which assistants? I have not heard this before. One of them hired Grigson when that assistant became a GM. I have yet to hear one of his assistants bash Grigson in public. 

 

3. Didn't Irsay have to tell Ballard to get it done with TY when they were at a stalemate? When Ballard does it, he's sticking to his guns...but when Grigson does it, it's some awful thing. 

 

It's probably fairly common for some players to not care for their GMs. There are employees and there are bosses. But it has only really been McAfee who even said he hated (or heavily implied that he hated) Grigson. Reggie didn't say he HATED Grigson...he just said it was awkward because they didn't have a conversation until later in the season. Not at all the same thing.

 

This narrative is especially overblown, since the Colts had NO issues signing UFAs or (more importantly) retaining their own. IF players hated Grigson, how can that be? You would think they would be staying away from Indy or trying to get out of Indy first chance, but none of them did. So even if it were true that some players didn't care for Grigson, it didn't even impact the team.

 

4. He didn't really say that. Here is the quote:

 

Quote

"When you pay Andrew what we did, it's going to take some time to build on the other side of the ball,"

 

He's referencing using the draft and setting expectations around quick fixes (FA moves) on defense. In previous years, the Colts had been very active in FA on defense, which rebuilt the defense up, but had also set a precedent for how they operated. But at that point, the defense needed to be rebuilt, and with so much cap going to offense and just having much less of it (with Luck's record-setting contract), there would not be quick fixes on defense and it was going to take time. That's all he said. He's clearly not a wordsmith, but that was basically Grigson's version of delayed gratification.

 

And the media jumped on that quote and turned it into Grigson blaming Luck (and his contract) for team woes. Prime example of everything I am talking about here with how the media has treated Grigson.

 

They and (later on) Colts content creators have been the ones who have created and/or driven these extreme narratives. And it's worked. Because even a logical Colts fan like you is using the word "hate" in reference to Grigson.

 

And Grigson has basically become this villain. Keefer made an entire podcast series about Luck without even mentioning Grigson, as just a recent example.

 

And it makes it nearly impossible for some to be objective when looking back to that era, which was actually pretty damn successful by NFL standards. And most of this fanbase refuses to give Grigson any credit, but are more than willing to blame him for everything. That's illogical and objectively, he should get some credit and he should only be sharing the blame.

 

That's all I am saying. And that doesn't happen, which is why I don't think Grigson gets a fair shake at all. I am not saying I like the guy or that he did a good job, I am just calling it how I see it. And I think what has happened since (with him working his way back up to being a #2) is evidence that others see the situation differently...perhaps without the Colts bias.

 

[stitches]

 

More inside content on the Colts picking Richardson possibly coming... 

 

[stitches]

Here's a story about Richardson Ballard shared at the Indiana Sports corp luncheon. 

 

 

We got a good one, guys and gals. No idea if he pans out, but he seems like a genuine good person with a  sense of responsibility.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

The roster did deteriorate with Grigson. And it was time for him a change. But going 8-8 in b2b seasons is not some epic failure. And 2015 was actually a fairly impressive achievement, given that Luck got hurt and missed 9 games (while also having by far his worst statistical season). Without Luck, they went 6-3.

 

I think the rest of these are largely media-driven narratives:

 

1. I am pretty sure Irsay made the call on hiring Pagano, at least it was reported that way. But HCs and GMs not getting along is not unprecedented. Both have said what was reported was way overblown. 

 

The reason that Grigson is seen as the villain in that saga is because of intentional leaks, from Pagano. Of course they made Grigson look bad...they were designed to do that. Somebody was about to get fired...it was CYA time. And Pagano used willing media members (Kravitz and Doyel, naturally) to level all complaints about TRich and Werner (after Pagano was talking about the leaps that Werner was making)...or that he was forced to work with Luck's guy Pep (who he eventually pushed out for his buddy Chud). 

 

Pagano shares just as much blame as Grigson IMO. I don't know if they were true or made up, but regardless, a HC leaking to the press is a bush league move. He should have been fired right there, along with Grigson. And the toxicity between the two was clearly mutual.

 

2. Which assistants? I have not heard this before. One of them hired Grigson when that assistant became a GM. I have yet to hear one of his assistants bash Grigson in public. 

 

3. Didn't Irsay have to tell Ballard to get it done with TY when they were at a stalemate? When Ballard does it, he's sticking to his guns...but when Grigson does it, it's some awful thing. 

 

It's probably fairly common for some players to not care for their GMs. There are employees and there are bosses. But it has only really been McAfee who even said he hated (or heavily implied that he hated) Grigson. Reggie didn't say he HATED Grigson...he just said it was awkward because they didn't have a conversation until later in the season. Not at all the same thing.

 

This narrative is especially overblown, since the Colts had NO issues signing UFAs or (more importantly) retaining their own. IF players hated Grigson, how can that be? You would think they would be staying away from Indy or trying to get out of Indy first chance, but none of them did. So even if it were true that some players didn't care for Grigson, it didn't even impact the team.

 

4. He didn't really say that. Here is the quote:

 

 

He's referencing using the draft and setting expectations around quick fixes (FA moves) on defense. In previous years, the Colts had been very active in FA on defense, which rebuilt the defense up, but had also set a precedent for how they operated. But at that point, the defense needed to be rebuilt, and with so much cap going to offense and just having much less of it (with Luck's record-setting contract), there would not be quick fixes on defense and it was going to take time. That's all he said. He's clearly not a wordsmith, but that was basically Grigson's version of delayed gratification.

 

And the media jumped on that quote and turned it into Grigson blaming Luck (and his contract) for team woes. Prime example of everything I am talking about here with how the media has treated Grigson.

 

They and (later on) Colts content creators have been the ones who have created and/or driven these extreme narratives. And it's worked. Because even a logical Colts fan like you is using the word "hate" in reference to Grigson.

 

And Grigson has basically become this villain. Keefer made an entire podcast series about Luck without even mentioning Grigson, as just a recent example.

 

And it makes it nearly impossible for some to be objective when looking back to that era, which was actually pretty damn successful by NFL standards. And most of this fanbase refuses to give Grigson any credit, but are more than willing to blame him for everything. That's illogical and objectively, he should get some credit and he should only be sharing the blame.

 

That's all I am saying. And that doesn't happen, which is why I don't think Grigson gets a fair shake at all. I am not saying I like the guy or that he did a good job, I am just calling it how I see it. And I think what has happened since (with him working his way back up to being a #2) is evidence that others see the situation differently...perhaps without the Colts bias.

 

Thanks.   I appreciate the very thoughtful response.   I’ll try to keep my comments as short as possible.   I’ve already been admonished this is a Richardson thread and NOT a Grigson.    
 

So….  One at a time.   
 

You've worked hard to defend Grigson, so I’d say this, what does it say to you that Irsay chose to fire Grigson and not Pagano a year after giving both long extensions?   
 

1.   Yes, Irsay hired Pagano, but he did so on Grigson’s strong recommendation.   I wasn’t a member of this community when Pags was hired but I followed the story because of my Luck connection.  When he interviewed Pagano, Grigson wrote that players will love this guy, that they will run through walls for him.   That’s how Pags got the job. 
 

2.   The comments from the assistants were anonymous.   No coach would risk getting fired making a comment like that about his GM.  BTW:  which assistant coach became a GM?    I don’t know this story.   But the comments were reported and posted here.   
 

3.   This one is easy.   When Grigson squeezed McAfee, Pat was at the height of his career.   When Ballard squeezed Hilton, TY was at the end.   Big difference.   And I’d add this,  when Hilton left, Ballard called him one of his all-time favorite players.   Someone he both loved and respected.  There wouldn’t appear to have been any damage done.  

As for Reggie: he publicly said he thought Grigson squeezed him in his last contract. (3/16) in 2012.   The walk by story was not flattering to Grigson.  As you noted, they didn’t talk again until much further down the season.   It’s hard to imagine Ballard, or any GM,  doing that to a top player, a team leader. 
 

As to player retention:  I’d simply say this….  Players came and stayed because the Colts were viewed as an ascending team with Super Bowl potential.   But the Colts paid handsomely to get good players.   As Ballard noted when he arrived, Indy isn’t a destination location.  The only way to get good talent was to pay big.   It was not sustainable.   And Irsay supports this. 
 

4.   The Luck story.  All teams with a franchise level quarterback face the same financial problem.   Only one made it a public issue:  Ryan Grigson and the Colts.   You keep those type of comments internal.  As to Ballard and delayed gratification:  he gets buried for that here on this website.  It’s one of his most unpopular comments.  I don’t think blaming the media works.  Grigson got ripped because he’s the only one to ever do what he did.  
 

Full disclosure:  I was a Grigson admirer until the closet door opened and everything tumbled out.  Then, I wasn’t.   But I’m glad he can get work in the NFL, even if the 5 year run were temp jobs.   But I confess if I were a Minnesota fan I’d be nervous.   And I liked his first pick of Jordan Addison.   But Grigson’s long term history says Buyer Beware.  
 

 

Appreciate the exchange.   Highest respect. 
 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Here's a story about Richardson Ballard shared at the Indiana Sports corp luncheon. 

 

 

We got a good one, guys and gals. No idea if he pans out, but he seems like a genuine good person with a  sense of responsibility.

That's my guy! So glad we drafted him instead of Will Wentz/Bo Callahan.