Quenton Nelson Poll

[Nickster]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I doubt we’d agree that today is Thursday.   MY absolute statements?!?   Dear God….   

"Our LT situation has nothing (ABSOLUTE MODIFIER) to do with Nelson.   If Castanzo was healthy and still playing he’d be getting paid LT money.   He was making $16.5 when he retired.   Nelson’s deal is  separate as it should be.  (ABSLOUTE STATEMENT WITH NO QUALIFIER)

You’ve connected dots that are not (ABSOLUTE MODIFIER) related. "

 

Maybe you don't really think this way because it seems ludicrous not to leave open the possibility at the least that the Q money allocation is related to other money allocations.  I mean it's such an absurd position to take that I doubt any sentient being actually believes it. 

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I doubt we’d agree that today is Thursday.   MY absolute statements?!?   Dear God….   

 

Today is Wednesday though... 

 

Overall I agree that paying Nelson is a given, and you figure out the rest of the allocation. Right now we don't have a LT to pay, so it's a moot point. If we still had AC, or if Fisher had worked out better, we'd be paying a LT, and we'd be getting ready to pay Nelson also, and it would work out. Contracts would be staggered as necessary, but it would work out. That's cap/roster management, and the Colts traditionally do a good job of it.

[Fluke_33]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

Today is Wednesday though... 

Today has been a rough day but that had me in stitches.  (no offense to ncf- it was just a funny mistake of his)

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Fluke_33 said:

Today has been a rough day but that had me in stitches.  (no offense to ncf- it was just a funny mistake of his)

 

I had to double check my calendar! Holiday weeks always throw me off, so it's an understandable mistake, but funny.

[2006Coltsbestever]

44 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

i would like to see Donald go up against Larry Allen 

Larry Allen could bench press 705 pound, he would destroy Aaron Donald and he was in his prime 25 years ago. Deion Sanders was faster than anyone back then. That Dallas team on average was faster than any team today and stronger in many area's. So much for players being better today  . Emmitt and Troy and Michael would literally set records today. Not a fan of Dallas but telling it like it is. It should have been Colts and Dallas in the SB in 1995 but the cheating REFS for Pitt took it away. Tony S, would have gave Allen problems, Harbaugh was Harbaugh - Mr pressure, nothing bothered him. Dallas played Choke O'Donnel  .

 

Aaron Donald best press on record is 505 pound - Larry Allen would mull him.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I am going to sleep but the younger generation just thinks athlete's are better today, some are but some aren't. Go back and watch the 1987 Lakers. They had a 6'9 PG, 6'10 PF, 6'9 SF who were all great and could run teams off the floor, they also had a 7'2 Center that nobody could stop today. People talk about 3pt shooting, Cooper and Scott could match anyone today and that was 35 years ago - LeBron's teams wouldn't be able to beat teams like the 85, 87, 88 Lakers like he came up short against the Warriors.

 

Just do me a favor and youtube the 1985-1988 Lakers. You will be like WOW! 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Fluke_33 said:

Today has been a rough day but that had me in stitches.  (no offense to ncf- it was just a funny mistake of his)

 

Yup….  My mind was elsewhere when I wrote that.     DOH!!           

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Its still connected.   And remember, Fisher was never elite during his career even before the injury.

 

1.  Even if the market liked his play, with Fisher's age and injury history working against him, we probably would have gotten him for a low enough contract. Or,

 

2. We may have needed to pay him elite money, but with his age and injury history, we would have had to find another elite LT 3 years later.  Sort of doing at LT what we've been doing at QB.

 

Edit:  I would say the only way the contracts are not connected is if we drafted Darrisaw and rolled with his rookie deal for 5 years.  Or try a player like Pryor and see if we get great play relative to what we're paying him.

Our contract issues with Nelson have nothing to do with whatever we’re paying Pryor or Fisher.   It is separate from our negotiations with Nelson.  
 

We paid Fisher nearly $20 mill last year coming off injury.   It stands to reason that if he had had a good year, we’d have paid him more.   And that was the plan all along.  That Fisher would be a 2-3 year fix. 
 

And we’d still have to pay Nelson.   
 

Ballard has said they project salaries three years out.   He just said this week, we pay your best players.   We’re going to pay Q.   Just as we would have if we had a more expensive left tackle at his side. 

[Colts1324]

5 hours ago, DaColts85 said:

5yr - 87.5mil (17.5/yr) with 48.125 guaranteed. Highest paid G but he does not need LT money. New cap will probably push my number higher though. 

This would be great for the Colts. 
 

I can see him getting $19-$20 & that’s where it starts to get out of hand for a guard.

 

$8-$10 million over the course of 4 years is a low end starter. We need every dollar with Taylor, Pittman, & Moore all looking for new contracts. 

 

 

 

[Nickster]

15 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

We weren't in position to draft either of those players

 

 

Who would you rather have?  Defo or TJ Watt?  We could have drafted Watt at 13 and probably could have traded down and got some nice picks in return and still drafted Watt.  He went 30th. 

 

Now I am not saying that anyone would have seen that move coming or criticizing the FO for not doing it.  But it would be a lot cooler if we had. 

 

Buck is a good player, but he is expensive and if we had Watt for instance, we wouldn't have had to chase EDGE players the last two seasons with high drafts and trades. 

[ADnum1]

We could sign a pretty good guard for around 10M.

 

Roger Saffold is signed to a 6.25 M contract

[cdgacoltsfan]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I doubt we’d agree that today is Thursday.   MY absolute statements?!?   Dear God….   

Unless you are currently in China....it's currently Wednesday here in the U.S. but Thursday in China. I know this because I looked at my calendar.

[ADnum1]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think the biggest holdup is the guaranteed money.  I’m guessing he wants more than Leonard who got $52.5.    So I’m guessing Q wants 55-60? 
 

As it stands now, Q is almost being punished. Leonard and Smith got their money last year because as second round picks they got shorter rookie deals.  They got their second contract after their 3rd year.    Nelson is now being offered his second contract after his 4th year.   And he’s clearly not getting the numbers he expected either in base salary or guaranteed money or both.  
 

I picked worried because I wasn’t expecting this negotiation to go this badly.  Ballard has paid market value to his top picks.   So either he’s not in this case, or Nelson is asking for more than we’re willing to pay.  At this late date, it’s a bad sign. 
 

Still time to get a deal done BEFORE week one,  but the clock is ticking….. 

On the one hand you say that LT and OG contracts are not related.

 

Then you point out that Nelson may want a bonus similar to Leonard or Smith.  So contracts are related ?

 

Also you cannot compare the value of a LT to the value of a OG.

 

No team would even draft an OG in the top 20 these days.

 

LT can go as high as number 1.

 

The point is they have hugely different values and to pay an OG a 100M is huge mistake.

[cdgacoltsfan]

54 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

 

Who would you rather have?  Defo or TJ Watt?  We could have drafted Watt at 13 and probably could have traded down and got some nice picks in return and still drafted Watt.  He went 30th. 

 

Now I am not saying that anyone would have seen that move coming or criticizing the FO for not doing it.  But it would be a lot cooler if we had. 

 

Buck is a good player, but he is expensive and if we had Watt for instance, we wouldn't have had to chase EDGE players the last two seasons with high drafts and trades. 

[Solid84]

12 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

We could sign a pretty good guard for around 10M.

 

Roger Saffold is signed to a 6.25 M contract

Yeah, I think you can find great guards for around 10m/yr.

 

I love Nelson. He's an amazing player and a great personality. That said, for my football team, I'd take two Glowinskis (at roughly 6m a piece) instead of Nelson and Pinter and use the money saved on an LT. I know it's not as easy as that, but I feel you pay A LOT of extra dollars for those extra 5-7-ish PFF points you get from a Nelson-level guard.

[w87r]

Was all that fun?

 

Week 1 about to start. What we all have been waiting for.

 

Please try and avoid lengthy back and forths derailing the thread. Thanks.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Unless you are currently in China....it's currently Wednesday here in the U.S. but Thursday in China. I know this because I looked at my calendar.

That's already been addressed as you know

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, PRnum1 said:

On the one hand you say that LT and OG contracts are not related.

 

Then you point out that Nelson may want a bonus similar to Leonard or Smith.  So contracts are related ?

 

Also you cannot compare the value of a LT to the value of a OG.

 

No team would even draft an OG in the top 20 these days.

 

LT can go as high as number 1.

 

The point is they have hugely different values and to pay an OG a 100M is huge mistake.

100 million dollar contract means nothing.   It's the guaranteed money.   If you only look at contract numbers  the browns are paying 2 guards 30 million a season combined.   The only money to look at in NFL contracts is the guaranteed money and how is spread out

[throwing BBZ]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Nelson may think they r low balling but I wouldn't gp above 17.5. 20mill is ludicrous. This team has no LT

 

 Hopefully our tackles have a better year than Castonzo had either of his first 3yrs. 9 SACKS 9.5 SACKS and 4 Sacks but 72 sacks hits and hurries in year 3.

 MOOSE has NO IDEA if we will be decent at LT. None. Zero!

  But it is great to know he would go 17.5. 

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, PRnum1 said:

On the one hand you say that LT and OG contracts are not related.

 

Then you point out that Nelson may want a bonus similar to Leonard or Smith.  So contracts are related ?

 

Also you cannot compare the value of a LT to the value of a OG.

 

No team would even draft an OG in the top 20 these days.

 

LT can go as high as number 1.

 

The point is they have hugely different values and to pay an OG a 100M is huge mistake.

 

 What is the name of that guard drafted at 14 last year?

[4daUColts]

i am a working class guy from indiana and the way i see it is this... either way hes set for life playing a game. 30mil/5years or 500mil/5years. give him top pay, but not much more. sheesh

[ruf]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Nelson may think they r low balling but I wouldn't gp above 17.5. 20mill is ludicrous. This team has no LT

what about the idea to move him to LT or leave him at LG and use the franchise tag. you can do that for 2 years and it would also give the colts time to see how his back is holding out before giving a long term deal.

just my thoughts

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

We paid Fisher nearly $20 mill last year coming off injury.   It stands to reason that if he had had a good year, we’d have paid him more.   And that was the plan all along.  That Fisher would be a 2-3 year fix.

In your world of unconnected salaries and your hypothetical situation, what player or player's would we not then pay?  Ryan?  Ngouke? We are currently $4.7M under the budget, so the current team would look different.

 

I think what you're saying is that our LG is so good, we just pay him elite money regardless, and then pay elite money also to the positions where we need actual elite talent to win.  If you look at it that way, yeah, Nelson is pretty much on a contract island and disconnected from everybody. 

 

There have to be choices made.  You can't have 22 elite starters and stagger the contracts enough to still get under the cap....not that I'm a mathematician and can prove it.   

 

But, if we don't have an elite LT or an elite franchise QB long term, I don't mind paying Nelson.  But I'll take any advancement in the playoffs with that personnel formula as a sigh of great coaching.  I hope it happens.

[EastStreet]

 

Draft a LG 1st/6th....

Elite, Pro Bowls, and All Pro...

 

 

Highest LG contract.... 

 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

13 minutes ago, DougDew said:

In your world of unconnected salaries and your hypothetical situation, what player or player's would we not then pay?  Ryan?  Ngouke? We are currently $4.7M under the budget, so the current team would look different.

 

I think what you're saying is that our LG is so good, we just pay him elite money regardless, and then pay elite money also to the positions where we need actual elite talent to win.  If you look at it that way, yeah, Nelson is pretty much on a contract island and disconnected from everybody. 

 

There have to be choices made.  You can't have 22 elite starters and stagger the contracts enough to still get under the cap....not that I'm a mathematician and can prove it.   

 

But, if we don't have an elite LT or an elite franchise QB long term, I don't mind paying Nelson.  But I'll take any advancement in the playoffs with that personnel formula as a sigh of great coaching.  I hope it happens.

The list if mine you responded to gas a key typo….  We didn’t pay Fisher nearly $20 million, it was nearly $10 mill.   My bad.   
 

And if we need to create more cap space we’d restructure contracts as we did last year.   We’d do that for a key player, but not for everyone.  

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, PRnum1 said:

On the one hand you say that LT and OG contracts are not related.

 

Then you point out that Nelson may want a bonus similar to Leonard or Smith.  So contracts are related ?

 

Also you cannot compare the value of a LT to the value of a OG.

 

No team would even draft an OG in the top 20 these days.

 

LT can go as high as number 1.

 

The point is they have hugely different values and to pay an OG a 100M is huge mistake.

Thanks for responding…..   I’ll address the easy stuff first and the more complicated stuff second.    This will be a long post.  Much to explain. 
 

The idea that no team would draft a guard in the top 20 is false.   It was done twice this year….    Green to Houston at 15,  Johnson to LAC at 17.    And it was also done once last with Vera-Tucker going 14 to the NYJ.   There has been no change in the NFL on the importance of drafting a guard high.   If they’re good enough, they go high, and if they’re not, they don’t.    
 

We didn’t draft QN 6th overall because he was the best guard of 2018.   He was drafted that high because he was being called the best guard in roughly the previous 12-15 years.   I think Ballard called him the best guard he’d EVER personally scouted.  His comparisons were Hall of Famers.  One other team that wasn’t the Colts said Nelson was the best player in the entire 2018 draft, period.   He was thought to be that good.  THAT’S why he went 6th. 

 

As to my comment about the contracts of QN and whoever plays LT are not related, I’ll elaborate.   It was stated by another poster that we can’t pay Q $20 million because we don’t have a good LT.   I was saying that’s false, the the two contracts are not related.  The Colts problems signing Q to a long-term contract are not connected to whomever plays LT.    Q is going to get a huge contract that will make him the highest paid guard in football no matter what the final number is.   And we’re likely going to have to restructure a contract or two in order to create cap space to do it.  We did that last year when we signed Leonard, Smith and Hines.   We re-did both Kelly and TYH.   We will do it again to sign Nelson and next year, if Pryor has a good year, we will likely restructure someone else to create space if we have to.   This is how teams create more cap space when needed. 
 

Players and teams use comparisons to get a ballpark idea of market value.  It helps both sides get an idea of what it will take to sign any given player.   My comment was about the guarantees for Nelson who may be asking to be our highest paid player, or to have the most guaranteed dollars was broadly speaking.   But what he’s asking for is not connected to the left tackle spot, which was my point about not being connected.    Sorry if this is confusing?    Let me know if I need to clarify anything else? 

[cdgacoltsfan]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

That's already been addressed as you know

Thanks daddy!

[Boss7894]

I think we should overpay Q

[EastStreet]

FYI.......

 

 

Colts Group Spend 

 

Rank Top 10

• Total #3 - $191.9M
• OL #1 - $45.8M 
• DL #3 - $50.9M (#1 KC 55.8M) - better see sacks lol
• QB #9 - $22.2

Rank Bottom 10

• K/P/LS #31  - $2.8M
• WR #29 - $9.3M

 

[Moosejawcolt]

3 hours ago, ruf said:

what about the idea to move him to LT or leave him at LG and use the franchise tag. you can do that for 2 years and it would also give the colts time to see how his back is holding out before giving a long term deal.

just my thoughts

I really think if the Colts believed he could play st LT they would have moved him there. It would have benefitted the Colts and Nelson by garnering him more money.  I just don't think he is good enough to play LT.

[DougDew]

16 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

The list if mine you responded to gas a key typo….  We didn’t pay Fisher nearly $20 million, it was nearly $10 mill.   My bad.   
 

And if we need to create more cap space we’d restructure contracts as we did last year.   We’d do that for a key player, but not for everyone.  

And let me be clear.  I'm not saying that the contracts of a LT and a LG are directly related, that you can't pay two elite players at those positions, but they are connected in the big pot of salary cap allocations distributed to meet priorities.  You are aware of this I'm sure.

 

I'd feel better about paying Nelson well for 5 more years if, say, we had Darrisaw under a rookie contract.  But then the dline would be that much weaker of course.

[BlackTiger]

Still think he can be a better LT than Pryor and that we dont need to be elite at LG.

 

I can live with whatever contract they give him though

[shasta519]

36 minutes ago, DougDew said:

And let me be clear.  I'm not saying that the contracts of a LT and a LG are directly related, that you can't pay two elite players at those positions, but they are connected in the big pot of salary cap allocations distributed to meet priorities.  You are aware of this I'm sure.

 

I'd feel better about paying Nelson well for 5 more years if, say, we had Darrisaw under a rookie contract.  But then the dline would be that much weaker of course.

 

By this time next year, the Colts should have the highest-paid LG and RB in the NFL. 

 

They need a QB on a rookie deal more than anything. 

 

[Superman]

34 minutes ago, DougDew said:

And let me be clear.  I'm not saying that the contracts of a LT and a LG are directly related, that you can't pay two elite players at those positions, but they are connected in the big pot of salary cap allocations distributed to meet priorities.  You are aware of this I'm sure.

 

I'd feel better about paying Nelson well for 5 more years if, say, we had Darrisaw under a rookie contract.  But then the dline would be that much weaker of course.

 

The bolded is obviously true. Not to speak for anyone else, but I think the point was that paying Nelson doesn't preclude the Colts from paying for a LT at the same time. And that point is being made in light of all the people suggesting that if you pay your LG big money it prevents you from having a good LT.

 

This is like saying you can't have a top five punter and kicker at the same time. Of course you can. Or, you can't have two top five paid safeties. Of course you can. And yes, that will have ramifications at other positions, but everyone knows that. 

 

On the OL, you can stagger pay and draft picks across the multiple positions, so it's not even that big of a deal. As long as you can draft good OL, you can mix and match, and make room for 2-3 highly paid OL at any given time. We don't have Darrisaw, but we do have Matt Pryor for one year, at about the cap cost of a high first rounder, and we have Raimann, who will probably get a shot at LT if Pryor doesn't stick there. Also can assume that Ryan Kelly would be considered a cap casualty if necessary.

 

Bigger picture, this story is five years old. We knew when they drafted Nelson that this was coming.

[Nickster]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The bolded is obviously true. Not to speak for anyone else, but I think the point was that paying Nelson doesn't preclude the Colts from paying for a LT at the same time. And that point is being made in light of all the people suggesting that if you pay your LG big money it prevents you from having a good LT.

 

This is like saying you can't have a top five punter and kicker at the same time. Of course you can. Or, you can't have two top five paid safeties. Of course you can. And yes, that will have ramifications at other positions, but everyone knows that. 

 

On the OL, you can stagger pay and draft picks across the multiple positions, so it's not even that big of a deal. As long as you can draft good OL, you can mix and match, and make room for 2-3 highly paid OL at any given time. We don't have Darrisaw, but we do have Matt Pryor for one year, at about the cap cost of a high first rounder, and we have Raimann, who will probably get a shot at LT if Pryor doesn't stick there. Also can assume that Ryan Kelly would be considered a cap casualty if necessary.

 

Bigger picture, this story is five years old. We knew when they drafted Nelson that this was coming.

 

The question to me is at what point does the Nelson contract become counterproductive from an over allocation standpoint. 

 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

The question to me is at what point does the Nelson contract become counterproductive from an over allocation standpoint. 

 

 

Why would having a great player under contract be counter productive? If you think we're not going to have money to spend on other positions, why not take aim at non-great players who are overpaid? 

 

Nelson is easily one of our three best players. Just accept that he's going to be here, helping the team play better. 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

 

By this time next year, the Colts should have the highest-paid LG and RB in the NFL. 

 

They need a QB on a rookie deal more than anything. 

 

 

It will be among my unpopular opinions lol and I hope it doesn't happen, but the best thing for this team would be a disastrous season.  There are some good QB prospects apparently.  

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Why would having a great player under contract be counter productive? If you think we're not going to have money to spend on other positions, why not take aim at non-great players who are overpaid? 

 

Nelson is easily one of our three best players. Just accept that he's going to be here, helping the team play better. 

 

Lets say he's our best player which I wouldn't argue.  We should pay him 25 million?  That is what the QB is making.  

 

That's your logic.  

 

I'm a big Q fan Supe, but there is a point where the money is counterproductive to the team's chances.

 

Duh.

[Myles]

18 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 
 

We didn’t draft QN 6th overall because he was the best guard of 2018.   He was drafted that high because he was being called the best guard in roughly the previous 12-15 years.  

 

 

And also Ballard had to fix a decrepit O-line to save Luck.  He did that by trading down to #6.  Got Nelson, Smith, Turray and Wilkins for not drafting Darnold.   Genius in every sense of the word.

 

i forgot Rock that his got with the trade as well.

[MikeCurtis]

Its interesting that the deal hasnt happened yet

 

If I am QN, if the deal is close.... Im pulling the trigger.

 

If he he gets really hurt this year (it happens) will he get the big money? - Nope

 

They may be way off on the numbers or the terms of the deal

 

You would have to think that they have at least roughed out the numbers

 

 

One thing for sure....The Colts have said again and again that they will work out a deal for QN

 

Another thing for sure............... the deal next year for top OL will grow 5-10%... and the cap should keep rising

 

IF QN is your guy.........  You try to tie him up for a few years, maybe 5

 

By the 4th year, you may have a good deal