Kurt Warner film study - Ups and Downs of Carson Wentz

[coming on strong]

8 hours ago, bravo4460 said:

Good video. Wentz inability to find the open man is obviously an issue. He gets extremely flustered under any pressure.

 

These route combinations seem TERRIBLE though. Very rarely a very open receiver to throw to unless it was a check down.

It’s the QBs job to read the defense and change the play if it’s a bad play against the defense .  Wentz only seems to change passing plays into run plays .

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

The thing is even if Wentz ‘gets’ it for a few games I don’t trust him not to revert to the crap we’ve seen from him this year once defenses figure us out. 
 

Frank hasn’t been good enough at coaching Wentz and calling plays to help him out. Our receivers are generally average. Wentz STILL had open targets and he just can’t figure it out. 

I can't debate any of this, Sunday was bad man.

[coming on strong]

14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You have done a complete swing on Wentz. I remember you posting saying Wentz would dominate here before the season and you were even convincing me he would. I was saying I didn't like the trade and it was you that was saying I was wrong. Times have changed.

Wentz changed my mind completely I thought him fighting with Peterson messed up his head .  Wentz literally has the talent of a elite Qb I didn’t realize his mental gane was so lacking until this year .   I admit I was wrong 100 percent .   I didn’t actually watch fully every eagles games I just had a roommate would would watch the games and I would see like a quarter of the games and I saw elite plays and was wowed by his Mahomes type throws and talent . This year made me release how important the mental side of the ball is . 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, coming on strong said:

Wentz changed my mind completely I thought him fighting with Peterson messed up his head .  Wentz literally has the talent of a elite Qb I didn’t realize his mental gane was so lacking until this year .   I admit I was wrong 100 percent .   I didn’t actually watch fully every eagles games I just had a roommate would would watch the games and I would see like a quarter of the games and I saw elite plays and was wowed by his Mahomes type throws and talent . This year made me release how important the mental side of the ball is . 

I still think Wentz is top 15 in reality but he just isn't what our fans are used too. Peyton was arguably the GOAT and for a brief time Luck was very good, even Rivers was for 1 year. Anyone that plays QB here will have to be tough minded. Because those shoes are tough to fill. Even Harbaugh is loved here because of 95.

[coming on strong]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think Wentz is top 15 in reality but he just isn't what our fans are used too. Peyton was arguably the GOAT and for a brief time Luck was very good, even Rivers was for 1 year. Anyone that plays QB here will have to be tough minded. Because those shoes are tough to fill. Even Harbaugh is loved here because of 95.

What’s crazy is if wentz had just better mental game he would easily be a top 5 Qb he has a rocket arm mobility and can make throws on a rope into triple coverage at times .   His mechanics in 2017 were so different he regressed I never saw this happen before .  He is looking at his primary wr and forces it Non stop when a check down is wide open . 

[throwing BBZ]

8 hours ago, John Waylon said:

There were 60+ yards Sunday alone that were left on the field by not passing to Taylor. 
 

This is why I don’t think giving him the best two WR’s of all time and building a 6 foot tall brick wall from sideline to sideline to keep the defense from getting to him is going to magically fix many of the issues he has. There are fundamental issues with his game that start, end, and can only be fixed by him. 

 

  #1 this shows that there were guys open on every play if you can read a defense

 #2 Carson has a number of years working with Frank, in his offense, and CARSON doesn't have a clue what he is doing. And Frank "coached him harder he said" than ever. 

#3 Carson is #2, and Frank still wanted him, and Frank and our leadership were nutts giving Jacoby the deal they GAVE him.

  We are in a pickle folks!    We need an intervention!

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

What’s crazy is if wentz had just better mental game he would easily be a top 5 Qb he has a rocket arm mobility and can make throws on a rope into triple coverage at times .   His mechanics in 2017 were so different he regressed I never saw this happen before .  He is looking at his primary wr and forces it Non stop when a check down is wide open . 

That injury in 2017 may be a mental block. He looks nervous in the pocket, like a guy that just wants to stay healthy. 

[DougDew]

I telling y'all.  He's the kid who would go into the snowy backyard in North Dakota after watching the Vikings/Bears/Packers and dive around in the snow making all kinds of last second heroic plays.  Then it worked in high school, at North Dakota State, and a few years with a good team in Philly.  Was he ever coached at actual QBing as a youth?

 

Time to grow up, Carson.

[Moe]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  #1 this shows that there were guys open on every play if you can read a defense

 #2 Carson has a number of years working with Frank, in his offense, and CARSON doesn't have a clue what he is doing. And Frank "coached him harder he said" than ever. 

#3 Carson is #2, and Frank still wanted him, and Frank and our leadership were nutts giving Jacoby the deal they GAVE him.

  We are in a pickle folks!    We need an intervention!

Don’t forget the hole Scott Tolzien debacle who decided that was the best option?

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Moe said:

Don’t forget the hole Scott Tolzien debacle who decided that was the best option?

Tolzien made me do this 

[2006Coltsbestever]

46 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I telling y'all.  He's the kid who would go into the snowy backyard in North Dakota after watching the Vikings/Bears/Packers and dive around in the snow making all kinds of last second heroic plays.  Then it worked in high school, at North Dakota State, and a few years with a good team in Philly.  Was he ever coached at actual QBing as a youth?

 

Time to grow up, Carson.

I always said the most important part of playing QB is getting the ball out fast and reading defenses before the snap (IQ). Been saying it for years but some don't listen. Rivers had that. I bet the people that were trashing Rivers wished they had him Sunday. 

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I always said the most important part of playing QB is getting the ball out fast and reading defenses before the snap (IQ). Been saying it for years but some don't listen. Rivers had that. I bet the people that were trashing Rivers wished they had him Sunday. 

All we need is Rivers with a stronger arm or more willingness to target TY PC or Pitt down field about 5 to 6 times a game.  That's it.  Is Garrapolo or Trubisky that?

 

I was Hoping that Frank could turn Carson into that.  Maybe he can with a full offseason.

 

No need for a huge trade up into the first round to get the next great mobile college QB prospect.

 

Let the other teams fall for that hype.  The next Phil Rivers could probably be had in the late first through 2nd rounds these days.

 

Carson Strong, QB, Nevada?

[throwing BBZ]

10 minutes ago, Moe said:

Don’t forget the hole Scott Tolzien debacle who decided that was the best option?

 

 To be honest, watching this tape made me think Curtis Painter. 
 A couple of the things shown were more complex, harder to read.
 But much more of it was as he said a numbers game, and there were quick reads to guys very open. As we watched a rookie shred OUR passive D, Wentz had every opportunity to do the same.
 FB 101 as Warner said. 
 If you don't know me by now
your never never gonna know me at all.

[CoachLite]

This was interesting. What do people see when they 'study' football films? That varies a lot from person to person. Do you only see the problems at hand? Or can you see all the other stuff in that context that lead up to the instant the problem was caught on film.

 

The real issue is what did you (collectively) learn from that film study. If it is only that you have problems, the exercise was worthless. The clue that is happening is, the same problem shows up week after week.

[MPStack]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think Wentz is top 15 in reality but he just isn't what our fans are used too. Peyton was arguably the GOAT and for a brief time Luck was very good, even Rivers was for 1 year. Anyone that plays QB here will have to be tough minded. Because those shoes are tough to fill. Even Harbaugh is loved here because of 95.

I think you nailed it here. Wentz is not and has never been the week in week out QB throwing for 300+ yards and 3TDs a game.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

21 minutes ago, DougDew said:

All we need is Rivers with a stronger arm or more willingness to target TY PC or Pitt down field about 5 to 6 times a game.  That's it.  Is Garrapolo or Trubisky that?

 

I was Hoping that Frank could turn Carson into that.  Maybe he can with a full offseason.

 

No need for a huge trade up into the first round to get the next great mobile college QB prospect.

 

Let the other teams fall for that hype.  The next Phil Rivers could probably be had in the late first through 2nd rounds these days.

 

Carson Strong, QB, Nevada?

I am not sure why Carson didn't throw more quick strikes. Luck did in 2018, he adapted. If I was QB with a QB that had Taylor I would be a 2 second quick hitter. Weird how some QB's can't figure this out.

[coltsfeva]

11 hours ago, bravo4460 said:

Good video. Wentz inability to find the open man is obviously an issue. He gets extremely flustered under any pressure.

 

These route combinations seem TERRIBLE though. Very rarely a very open receiver to throw to unless it was a check down.

I totally disagree: there were plenty of instances where receiver(s) were WIDE open.

  Makes me wonder if they will see how much Carson’s mental mistakes led to the line having to hold their guys too long and ineptitude of the passing game. Maybe the receivers aren’t as terrible as people think?

[RollerColt]

Why didn't we try going no huddle during the Jags game when it all started to fall apart? Honestly, we should've went back to early season mode and just handed Carson some of his favorite easy plays, went no huddle and took what the defense was giving. It looked like the team walked into Florida thinking they could just simply outmuscle the Jags without a real plan...

 

I still don't know... This loss is going to eat me alive for a long time. 

[throwing BBZ]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not sure why Carson didn't throw more quick strikes. Luck did in 2018, he adapted. If I was QB with a QB that had Taylor I would be a 2 second quick hitter. Weird how some QB's can't figure this out.

 

 This tape showed Wentz as actually befuddled as to what was going on in front of him, and just spastically at the last moment using his big awkward arm to get the ball to someone marginally open.

 After years of Franks tutelage we have this! What the ____ Frank!
 Sorry, but Warner, the Hall of Famer that was Superior at picking defenses apart, made you and CW look like darn foo__.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 This tape showed Wentz as actually befuddled as to what was going on in front of him, and just spastically at the last moment using his big awkward arm to get the ball to someone marginally open.

 After years of Franks tutelage we have this! What the ____ Frank!
 Sorry, but Warner, the Hall of Famer that was Superior at picking defenses apart, made you and CW look like darn foo__.

Kurt Warner was a special player, we have a QB that can't figure it out. I never said he was Peyton, Luck, or even Rivers. I did talk smack and think we would at least make the playoffs. When we lost Sunday that was bad. Shocked me.

[coming on strong]

53 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I always said the most important part of playing QB is getting the ball out fast and reading defenses before the snap (IQ). Been saying it for years but some don't listen. Rivers had that. I bet the people that were trashing Rivers wished they had him Sunday. 

This season has been a wake up call I bashed rivers for having a weak arm and no mobility. The flashy Qb was intriguing to me because had luck those traits but without a elite mind those traits equal a lot of turnovers and sacks .

[throwing BBZ]

9 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

I totally disagree: there were plenty of instances where receiver(s) were WIDE open.

  Makes me wonder if they will see how much Carson’s mental mistakes led to the line having to hold their guys too long and ineptitude of the passing game. Maybe the receivers aren’t as terrible as people think?

 

 Really good QB'S, and there are many, throw what look like amazing throws downfield into tight windows. They read where the window will be, and trust their receivers will get there.  It is Great football, and there will likely be a couple hundred of these completed in the Playoffs.

  

[coming on strong]

36 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not sure why Carson didn't throw more quick strikes. Luck did in 2018, he adapted. If I was QB with a QB that had Taylor I would be a 2 second quick hitter. Weird how some QB's can't figure this out.

I am convinced it’s Marcus Brady . I know frank calls the plays and it’s still his offense but there has been some changes from last year added by Brady . Brady was in the cfl his offenses were ran like Bruce arians long home run throws not a ton of short passes . Looking at the 2018 offense vs this year it’s a significant difference .   I would fire Brady and the Qb coach 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

This season has been a wake up call I bashed rivers for having a weak arm and no mobility. The flashy Qb was intriguing to me because had luck those traits but without a elite mind those traits equal a lot of turnovers and sacks .

Wentz is more talented than Rivers but football IQ is king my friend. Look at what Peyton did with Denver, drawing dudes offsides, calling a run at the line, getting the ball out quick when passing. He wasn't great but he knew he could win as long as he didn't turn it over.

2 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

I am convinced it’s Marcus Brady . I know frank calls the plays and it’s still his offense but there have been some changes from last year added by Brady . Brady was in the cfl his offenses were ran like Bruce arians long home run throws not a ton of short passes . Looking at the 2018 offense vs this year it’s a significant difference .   I would fire Brady and the Qb coach 

That may be the problem.

[coming on strong]

For wentz to be successful he needs a simple offense meant for a game manager . Quick easy reads with short passes . Mix in some deep passes off of play action with check downs on the second progression .

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Wentz is more talented than Rivers but football IQ is king my friend. Look at what Peyton did with Denver, drawing dudes offsides, calling a run at the line, getting the ball quick when passing. He wasn't great but he knew he could win as long as he didn't turn it over.

That may be the problem.

While Peyton's arm wasn't at full strength anymore, he was still able to hit on a lot of homerun throws deep. He'd have at least one or two deep pass completions each game. What drove me nuts was seeing us try these long developing plays, only to then attempt to throw it in the short to intermediate range in traffic. 

 

I thought starting with the deep pass against the Bucs that we would start to turn a corner finally, but instead it just got worse...

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

While Peyton's arm wasn't at full strength anymore, he was still able to hit on a lot of homerun throws deep. He'd have at least one or two deep pass completions each game. What drove me nuts was seeing us try these long developing plays, only to then attempt to throw it in the short to intermediate range in traffic. 

 

I thought starting with the deep pass against the Bucs that we would start to turn a corner finally, but instead it just got worse...

BB went for it twice on 4th down instead of taking FG's in the 2015 AFC Title Game, he feared Peyton that much who supposedly had a noodle arm according to the media.

[Flash7]

Here's what I saw from watching this clip:

 

1. The Jaguars did to us what I hate our defense doing: They only sent a 4-man rush and played zone behind it. It's usually 4 D-lineman against 5 O-lineman and sometimes against 6 if the RB stays back to help, which means the numbers are not in your favor. But, their D-line completely destroyed our O-line with only a 4-man rush. Over and over again. Repeatedly.

 

2. I watched the whole thing, and from the clips that I saw, our receivers played primarily against zone defenders. This means that if they were not open, it's because of the scheme and not their inability to get open. 

 

3. We have to understand what constitutes a good QB. For the millionth time, it's not arm strength! (Some people fall in love with a QB with a big arm). It's the ability to make proper pre-snap reads, post snap reads, and deliver an accurate, timely ball. That's it! That's the most important thing. He can be the size of Brees or C. Newton, he can have the arm strength of Pennington or A. Rogers, as long as he can do those things extremely well. 

 

4. Unfortunately, Wentz may not have item #3. If you do not innately have item #3, it's nearly impossible to develop it. Otherwise, guys like Eason (and hundreds of other big armed QBs) could easily develop these traits, but they hardly ever do. The NFL is littered with physically gifted QBs who do not have the ability to process all of the information fast enough during live play.

[John Waylon]

3 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  #1 this shows that there were guys open on every play if you can read a defense

 #2 Carson has a number of years working with Frank, in his offense, and CARSON doesn't have a clue what he is doing. And Frank "coached him harder he said" than ever. 

#3 Carson is #2, and Frank still wanted him, and Frank and our leadership were nutts giving Jacoby the deal they GAVE him.

  We are in a pickle folks!    We need an intervention!

To the bolded, the stories that Wentz doesn’t like and doesn’t respond well to hard coaching and being pushed are out there. It’s one of the things Eagles fans warned us about coming in. 
 

Now they’re repeating the same steps that led to his Philly meltdown (bringing in someone else to compete for his job,) and I just feel less and less like there is a recipe for success here every day. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, coming on strong said:

I am convinced it’s Marcus Brady . I know frank calls the plays and it’s still his offense but there has been some changes from last year added by Brady . Brady was in the cfl his offenses were ran like Bruce arians long home run throws not a ton of short passes . Looking at the 2018 offense vs this year it’s a significant difference .   I would fire Brady and the Qb coach 

Hopefully this shows up as they are doing the autopsy of what went wrong. I wasn’t impressed with Brady from the start. The failure to get Hines involved blows my mind. Brady, Eberflus, Baker should all be gone. Would be ridiculous to make a rash decision on Wentz without looking at the play calling. Brady makes the game plans. Reich just calls them from that game plan.

[Bolts2Colts]

The first play in Kurt’s video was eye-opening.  I thought Carson was simply not getting through his progressions, but it appears that he’s not even doing them in the correct order. That should have been a ridiculously easy first down near goal line and instead it was a sack. 
 

After hearing Jeff Saturday’s comments, I think the writing is on the wall. No way he makes such disparaging and harmful comments if Wentz will be here next year. It would be terrible for Wentz’s confidence and team morale.  Saturday knows.  The PR campaign has started. 
 

The Colts must be excited with what they’re seeing from Sam Ehlinger.  They must figure that is the worst they can do and he’s better than Wentz. 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Wentz is more talented than Rivers but football IQ is king my friend. Look at what Peyton did with Denver, drawing dudes offsides, calling a run at the line, getting the ball out quick when passing. He wasn't great but he knew he could win as long as he didn't turn it over.

That may be the problem.

Pep Hamillton is making a name for himself as qb guru. Who would have figured?

[Fluke_33]

13 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

Lengthy video, but really solid film study of Wentz’s game against Jax. Lot of interesting insight on decision making (ignoring JT in the flat on the first play hurts to watch) harps on holding the ball too long/how looking guys off can be a detriment and not getting it to the right spot. Just an insightful video all around.

 

And of course, obligatory it’s not all on Carson. He highlights some poor protection.

 

 

 

That first play alone is an obvious issue.  I'll watch the rest when i have more than a lunch break but geeze!  

[shasta519]

Does Warner recommend a couple hours of "Kill Carson." That would certainly get him to throw the ball sooner.

[DiogoSales]

13 hours ago, Wentzszn said:

Seems to me two things have to be determined. One is it because he is slow at processing? 2. Is it just because he wants the big play. If it’s slow processing that probably can’t be fixed. If it’s him just wanting the big play that can probably be coaches out of him.

Seems to me football knowlegde sometimes.. He started with the wrong progression severall times looking at Kurt's point of view..

 

Don't get me wrong, Kurt is a monstro, but some of the progressions there were pretty "ok" to do with you're a 6th year veteran in the NFL, the first play of the video is ridiculous, JT were WIDE open, as he was also on the overtime interception on the Titans game, Wentz just started the progression from the wrong option.

[indyagent17]

Thanks for sharing the video, That was a great breakdown in 30 minutes. The issue I fear is that can Carson be taught at this point in his career or is he past that point. The biggest indictment of Wentz is that he has had the best RB in the league as a check down and we Wentz rarely looks his way. People talk about happy feet but there is real condition called sensory overload where the brain cannot process many things at once. He is so myopic sometimes and his head is fixated on a receiver and I think defenses started figuring him out. If you take away an historic year by Taylor and some of the takeaways that masked a weak defense this team could have easily won 4-5 less games. 

[AKB]

really hope we dont put all our eggs in wentz's basket. 

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

really hope we dont put all our eggs in wentz's basket. 

 

The eggs will always be in the team basket so that whether Wentz is the QB in 2022 or 2023, or someone else is, the team will be stocked with talent at key positions to set it up for success. That is the way Ballard wants to build this team. This is probably the most important off season since Ballard took over, IMO. Eliminate the "not enough talent" doubt by adding talent at key spots so Frank and/or Wentz will not have an excuse not to win the division, IMO.

[DougDew]

I watched the video.  Keep in mind that it was in slow speed, never really in full speed.  In Wentz defense, there were several, if not many, times where Carson did not have enough time to do what Warner is talking about, IMO.  

 

He simply looked rushed with his decision making and his set up and throwing even when he got the read correct.

 

The sad thing is that he could have checked down to JT a lot.  That alone would have slowed tha pass rush....and helped to win the TEN game in OT.

 

[Moosejawcolt]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I watched the video.  Keep in mind that it was in slow speed, never really in full speed.  In Wentz defense, there were several, if not many, times where Carson did not have enough time to do what Warner is talking about, IMO.  

 

He simply looked rushed with his decision making and his set up and throwing even when he got the read correct.

 

The sad thing is that he could have checked down to JT a lot.  That alone would have slowed tha pass rush....and helped to win the TEN game in OT.

 

I truly think Frank knows if it is worth it moving forward with him in 2022.  The more I go over it with my limited football nnoweldge, I am leaning towards moving on. I mean Sam could maybe be successful.  The way this offence is constructed it does not ask a lot from the qb. To me Irsays comments were telling in terms of they don't have the right stuff. I think that was a shot  Wentz.