Fisher Signing 1 Year Deal

[John Hammonds]

27 minutes ago, coltsva said:

 

We can rebuild him. We have the technology..

Fun fact:  The theme music for Six Million Dollar Man was written by the great jazz composer Oliver Nelson.  His son, Oliver Nelson Jr lives in the Indianapolis area, and still plays his father's music at the Jazz Kitchen in Broad Ripple and at the Chatterbox on Mass Ave.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I think we actually can

 

The most expensive positions are QB, LT and DE

 

Wentz contract is middling

DE is on rookie contract

 

This should give us some $$$ to spend on LT

 

We shouldnt be out of whack too bad

We have smith to sign also. That’s another 15 million most likely.  Then add Nelson to that. What if Turay and Lewis have big years. We have some very expensive contracts coming up. Leonard is going to be like 18m. 

[CheezyColt]

17 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

There is a built in likelihood of a 3rd round comp pick...so that’s worth something...

It might not be the main reason we signed him but it certainly is a bonus.

 

Belichick does this all the time and is called a genius for it.  Signing former first rounders that were cut to a one year deal, have them show the league that they're back while benefiting the team, and then letting them walk for a positive value in the comp pick formula.

 

We just gotta hope the achilles heals right.  Big risk, but the team obviously thought the move worth it.

[Superman]

11 minutes ago, Myles said:

You think so?

I would have liked to sign him to a 2-4 year deal instead of Fisher.   He's been good and always plays.  

 

He fit the profile of the kind of FA the Colts pursued last season -- guys who don't miss games due to injury. The connection between the Colts and Fisher is obvious, but I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be back nine months after a ruptured Achilles. 

[Hoose]

3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

We have smith to sign also. That’s another 15 million most likely.  Then add Nelson to that. What if Turay and Lewis have big years. We have some very expensive contracts coming up. Leonard is going to be like 18m. 

Which is why missing on  a rookie LT hurts so much. A cheap option really sets you up with the cap. An expensive LT creates problems. Ballard knows this and passed in the first round to pick Paye. Which tells you just how much they valued Paye.....And also that they likely believed someone like Cosmi or Radunz would fall to them at 54. 

But it didn’t work out. Now you pivot and patch where you can. A one year deal works for now, but this problem will rear it’s ugly head again next year. With no obvious answer. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, CheezyColt said:

It might not be the main reason we signed him but it certainly is a bonus.

 

Belichick does this all the time and is called a genius for it.  Signing former first rounders that were cut to a one year deal, have them show the league that they're back while benefiting the team, and then letting them walk for a positive value in the comp pick formula.

 

We just gotta hope the achilles heals right.  Big risk, but the team obviously thought the move worth it.

That is actually a really nice bonus.  We can get a good player with a 3rd round comp pick.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, Hoose said:

Which is why missing on  a rookie LT hurts so much. A cheap option really sets you up with the cap. An expensive LT creates problems. Ballard knows this and passed in the first round to pick Paye. Which tells you just how much they valued Paye.....And also that they likely believed someone like Cosmi or Radunz would fall to them at 54. 

But it didn’t work out. Now you pivot and patch where you can. A one year deal works for now, but this problem will rear it’s ugly head again next year. With no obvious answer. 

Who knows. Tevi might come in and play well that first month and earn him a new shot at starting in 22. Maybe he proves he is good enough and we find our LT. He is still young.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Yep Tevi is going to have a great opportunity for 22.

 

 

[Hoose]

1 minute ago, Wentzszn said:

Who knows. Tevi might come in and play well that first month and earn him a new shot at starting in 22. Maybe he proves he is good enough and we find our LT. He is still young.

That’s very unlikely. Hope you’re right though. 

[stitches]

1 minute ago, Wentzszn said:

Yep Tevi is going to have a great opportunity for 22.

 

 

This is the exact timeline to start Fisher on PUP and get him back for week 7-8... 

[richard pallo]

41 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Ballard has access to his doctors and access to be able to talk to Fisher on a daily basis, none of us do in here. So at this point, Ballard must think Fisher will be ready to play most of the season. It would make no sense for Ballard to sign him to a 1 year deal if he wasn't sure Fisher would be back. I am rolling with Ballard on this one, he knows more than we do.

Absolutely.  All I ever read here is Trust in ballard, Trust in Ballard.  He has all the information.  He knows what he is doing. I feel it's a good deal for both sides.  I'm expecting him to have a very good year next to Q and we resign him to a longer deal next year.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, Hoose said:

That’s very unlikely. Hope you’re right though. 

I don’t know. I think it could happen playing next to Nelson and with Wentz mobility. Maybe Holden even beats him out in camp. Oline is always a five man unit and that could benefit him a ton.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

I'm going to go with Ballard and his medical staff on this one. I doubt he risks $9. Million of Irsay's money and Wentz's blind side if there was doubt Fischer will miss more than a few games.

But I will say this, the games count just as much in September as they do in December. 

[Fluke_33]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He fit the profile of the kind of FA the Colts pursued last season -- guys who don't miss games due to injury. The connection between the Colts and Fisher is obvious, but I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be back nine months after a ruptured Achilles. 

I get too optimistic at times so take my comments with a grain of salt but don't you think it is more likely that they've reviewed his specific injury, see that he is ahead of schedule, and going to be able to play this year and that is why they signed him than he fits the general studies/reports that you are relying on.   I know you are defending your position and it is logically sound but you don't have the information on this specific injury or his recovery while they do.

 

I just dont see ballard signing someone to 9.84 when he doesn't think there is a strong chance they play for most of the season/playoffs.

[TaylorStillTruckedYou]

1 hour ago, CR91 said:

Another one year deal. It's gonna be another busy off-season for the colts next year.

I was thinking about this.  I’m not educated on how comp picks work, but with so many potential players leaving next year, wouldn’t this set us up to receive quite a few decent comp picks in a couple years?

[SteelCityColt]

In @Superman's defence I'd like to see the full terms of the deal, as that might shed more light on how much of a risk they feel the move is. 

 

If there are terms to escape without paying the whole 9 (million) yards that's something of a different story. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Colts have a lot of depth and experience on the line this year. Ballard’s offseason on both sides of the lines has been really good when you consider adding Dayo and Paye.

 

 

[richard pallo]

Now that this is out of the way I'm expecting a couple of extensions before the season starts.  This deal is very friendly.  I can now see us signing another FA or two if we want.  This puts Ertz on the radar if released. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, SteelCityColt said:

In @Superman's defence I'd like to see the full terms of the deal, as that might shed more light on how much of a risk they feel the move is. 

 

If there are terms to escape without paying the whole 9 (million) yards that's something of a different story. 

There really is no risk in a one year deal. They have the cap to do it. 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

What difference does it make what they expect? What actually happens is what matters. And Fisher playing in 2021 is very much up in the air. For him to play by the end of September would make him a major outlier.

 

I don't know what the new techniques of Achilles treatment are, but it's not the death sentence that it once was. KD, Mack, etc.  There must be something new going on medically, although I haven't pinpointed anything with a casual net search.

 

That being said, this is a pretty risky signing IMO, if we don't think the guys we had before Fisher are good enough to compete with.

[SteelCityColt]

Just now, Wentzszn said:

There really is no risk in a one year deal. They have the cap to do it. 

 

There's a risk of paying someone $9 million to do not a lot... 

 

As with most NFL contracts, once the fuller terms are out you get more sense of how/why the deal was struck. If it's heavily incentive laden that tells you something about their confidence levels. If it's fully guaranteed that tells you something else. Likely a large chunk will be guaranteed come whatever, but always pays to wait on the full terms.

[richard pallo]

2 minutes ago, AddaiStillTruckedYou said:

I was thinking about this.  I’m not educated on how comp picks work, but with so many potential players leaving next year, wouldn’t this set us up to receive quite a few decent comp picks in a couple years?

If Fisher recovers adequately he is worth far more than comp picks.  Let's hope he recovers so we can sign him to a long term  extension.  He is only 30 and good let alone great left tackles don't grow on trees. 

[Superman]

Just now, Fluke_33 said:

I get too optimistic at times so take my comments with a grain of salt but don't you think it is more likely that they've reviewed his specific injury, see that he is ahead of schedule, and going to be able to play this year and that is why they signed him than he fits the general studies/reports that you are relying on.   I know you are defending your position and it is logically sound but you don't have the information on this specific injury or his recovery while they do.

 

I just dont see ballard signing someone to 9.84 when he doesn't think there is a strong chance they play for most of the season/playoffs.

 

I think this all goes without saying. The team and their medical people are aware of the details, and that influences their level of confidence in this decision. I'm just a guy on the Internet.

 

But I stated my opinion on Fisher and Dayo last week. The research says it's an 11 month recovery, on average. Outliers are 9 months. For Fisher to play in September, he'd be an outlier. No one bets on outliers without acknowledging the risk they're taking. If Fisher's recovery is typical, he probably won't play until December. And if he has a setback, he might not play this season at all. 

 

One last thing, not necessarily directed at your post, is that last week I was accused in no uncertain terms of being a Ballard bootlicker who never disagrees with anything the team does. Today, I'm voicing my disagreement with this move, based on typical recovery for players with this injury, and every response is 'the team knows what they're doing.' Kind of ironic, IMO.

[CR91]

 

[SteelCityColt]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think this all goes without saying. The team and their medical people are aware of the details, and that influences their level of confidence in this decision. I'm just a guy on the Internet.

 

But I stated my opinion on Fisher and Dayo last week. The research says it's an 11 month recovery, on average. Outliers are 9 months. For Fisher to play in September, he'd be an outlier. No one bets on outliers without acknowledging the risk they're taking. If Fisher's recovery is typical, he probably won't play until December. And if he has a setback, he might not play this season at all. 

 

One last thing, not necessarily directed at your post, is that last week I was accused in no uncertain terms of being a Ballard bootlicker who never disagrees with anything the team does. Today, I'm voicing my disagreement with this move, based on typical recovery for players with this injury, and every response is 'the team knows what they're doing.' Kind of ironic, IMO.

 

Will you stop with your reasonably stated posts taking us through the logic of your posting without containing at least one personal shot? 

 

Question would you have been happier, or at least understood more, a 2 year deal? Let's say for sake of ease circa 18 Mil. I'm still nervy about achilles injuries, the science of treatment has come on massively, but you it's still far from a 'routine' injury. 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

I don't know what the new techniques of Achilles treatment are, but it's not the death sentence that it once was. KD, Mack, etc.  There must be something new going on medically, although I haven't pinpointed anything with a casual net search.

 

That being said, this is a pretty risky signing IMO, if we don't think the guys we had before Fisher are good enough to compete with.

 

I'm not calling it a death sentence. I'm saying typical recovery doesn't put Fisher back on the field in September.

 

KD didn't play for 18 months. Mack hasn't returned yet. I don't see anything new out there that suggests that any high level athletes are returning after a ruptured Achilles in a shorter time frame than they did over the past decade. 

[Myles]

Even some of the best (Ballard) can be influenced by things that shouldn't factor into a decision.  I hope Ballard hasn't been swayed by his past dealings with Fisher in KC.  

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not calling it a death sentence. I'm saying typical recovery doesn't put Fisher back on the field in September.

 

KD didn't play for 18 months. Mack hasn't returned yet. I don't see anything new out there that suggests that any high level athletes are returning after a ruptured Achilles in a shorter time frame than they did over the past decade. 

From what I gather they can return to activity relatively quickly, but building back explosion and strength is the tricky part. Oh well... Ballard has bet on 3 players with that same injury this year and 2 of them are pretty big investments and/or key additions - Fisher and Odeyingbo. Lets see if it pays off. 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Will you stop with your reasonably stated posts taking us through the logic of your posting without containing at least one personal shot? 

 

Question would you have been happier, or at least understood more, a 2 year deal? Let's say for sake of ease circa 18 Mil.

 

LOL

 

Still waiting on the details. Half of the $9.4m might be playing time bonuses, in which case this makes more sense. I'm not out on it, just don't think he'll be back in September, and if something goes wrong he might not play at all.

 

A two year deal would have more room for cap flexibility, and would give us a better market position, I think. 

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not calling it a death sentence. I'm saying typical recovery doesn't put Fisher back on the field in September.

 

KD didn't play for 18 months. Mack hasn't returned yet. I don't see anything new out there that suggests that any high level athletes are returning after a ruptured Achilles in a shorter time frame than they did over the past decade. 

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least on this topic.  

 

I guess I typed in the correct thing into GOOGLE.  Here is an article that probably pretty much answers why it's possible that this guy can play soon.   https://physicians.dukehealth.org/articles/new-achilles-tendon-rupture-repair-technique-saves-cost-time

[Superman]

Just now, stitches said:

From what I gather they can return to activity relatively quickly, but building back explosion and strength is the tricky part. Oh well... Ballard has bet on 3 players with that same injury this year and 2 of them are pretty big investments - Fisher and Odeyingbo. Lets see if it pays off. 

 

Yeah, Mack is a low risk, potentially high reward, but we have a capable starter at that position ahead of him. 

 

I've written off Dayo for 2021, anything we get from him is a bonus. At least he's under contract for four years.

 

From my understanding, the Achilles is the thickest tendon in the body, and doesn't get great circulation, so it needs a lot of time to heal. During that recovery, a setback could be very costly. 

[CR91]

13 minutes ago, AddaiStillTruckedYou said:

I was thinking about this.  I’m not educated on how comp picks work, but with so many potential players leaving next year, wouldn’t this set us up to receive quite a few decent comp picks in a couple years?

 

Only if they re-sign elsewhere and what we do in free agency.

[SteelCityColt]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

LOL

 

Still waiting on the details. Half of the $9.4m might be playing time bonuses, in which case this makes more sense. I'm not out on it, just don't think he'll be back in September, and if something goes wrong he might not play at all.

 

A two year deal would have more room for cap flexibility, and would give us a better market position, I think. 

 

Even at a best case scenario of he's ready to go Game 1 (which I doubt), and is more likely a PUP candidate, there is going to be some rust to shake off and confidence to rebuild. I know he went down late last season, but even with the best prognosis it can take a while for players to get back to 100%. 

 

The question might be more, do you think Fisher at 80% of his usual level, for 8-9 games this year is worth 9 Million?

[SteelCityColt]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least on this topic.  

 

I guess I typed in the correct thing into GOOGLE.  Here is an article that probably pretty much answers why it's possible that this guy can play soon.   https://physicians.dukehealth.org/articles/new-achilles-tendon-rupture-repair-technique-saves-cost-time

 

Or look further in the previous topic for the very nice breakdown by @ColtsBlueFL which is a bit more in-depth than a fluff piece.

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, Mack is a low risk, potentially high reward, but we have a capable starter at that position ahead of him. 

 

I've written off Dayo for 2021, anything we get from him is a bonus. At least he's under contract for four years.

 

From my understanding, the Achilles is the thickest tendon in the body, and doesn't get great circulation, so it needs a lot of time to heal. During that recovery, a setback could be very costly. 

Here's a more jargonistic article on athletes.   https://www.podiatrytoday.com/which-repair-technique-superior-acute-achilles-tendon-ruptures-athletes

 

So things are definitely changing on Achilles repair, and recovery times can be sped up significantly.

[Zoltan]

1 hour ago, Wentzszn said:

I understand injuries can have setbacks. But I am not concerned he will miss the entire season at all. 

 

I agree me and another ColtsBlueFL went in-depth on achilles injury peer reviewed articles, and I think it is totally possible for him to be back in october depending on the surgery he had.

 

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

The documented history of Achilles recovery in football players.

 

From the case series in the LT discussion we had was based on a KC surgeon that was using the mini-open method and had a average recovery of 8.9 months. So depending on the surgery type I could easily see him come back in late september/early october. That in combination with that in the other articles non skilled positions seemed to have better RTS rates.

[SteelCityColt]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, Mack is a low risk, potentially high reward, but we have a capable starter at that position ahead of him. 

 

I've written off Dayo for 2021, anything we get from him is a bonus. At least he's under contract for four years.

 

From my understanding, the Achilles is the thickest tendon in the body, and doesn't get great circulation, so it needs a lot of time to heal. During that recovery, a setback could be very costly. 

 

Don't underestimate that relatively, by the nature of the position, O-Line guys tend to be 'overweight' for their natural frame. A lot of stress and strain on those joints and tendons. IIRC the study @ColtsBlueFL did show there was a link with BMI and recovery?

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Don't underestimate that relatively, by the nature of the position, O-Line guys tend to be 'overweight' for their natural frame. A lot of stress and strain on those joints and tendons. IIRC the study @ColtsBlueFL did show there was a link with BMI and recovery?

When Mack went down, I did some searching.  RBs had almost never recovered effectively from Achilles Surgery at that point.  CBs had poor record.  Actually Oline was one of the more likely positions to recover.  

 

For FB players anyway, explosiveness tends to be the victim rather than the kinda movements fat LTs make.

[SteelCityColt]

2 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

I agree me and another ColtsBlueFL went in-depth on achilles injury peer reviewed articles, and I think it is totally possible for him to be back in october depending on the surgery he had.

 

 

From the case series in the LT discussion we had was based on a KC surgeon that was using the mini-open method and had a average recovery of 8.9 months. So depending on the surgery type I could easily see him come back in late september/early october. That in combination with that in the other articles non skilled positions seemed to have better RTS rates.

 

I think I mis-remembered the table then, but you're right there was definite split. Did it define what it classed as a 'skill' position? I know a common long term effect of an achilles injury is a loss of explosiveness, which I can understand affecting say a RB/WR, but would equally think it applied to say a CB?

[JediXMan]

I was hoping for a 2 year deal with Leno.  At least with him he starts right away. Man they must be confident he doesn’t a lot  any games and isn’t rusty.