TE Jack Doyle expected to be placed on I.R.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

36 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Troy Niklas is available.....all 6'6" and 270 lbs of a blocking TE (who was recruited as a LB to ND) who can attempt to play Doyle's role and he's only 26.....

 

I like the way you think Scott. 

 

   

[Shive]

10 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Permission to refer to you as the "Stanley" of the forum from now on?  Like we all get easily amazed by something, and you're just like:

 

 

Eh?  What do you think?  Pretty good, right?

Unless it's pretzel day, then all bets are off.

[Trueman]

World : "That Einstein guy was pretty great"

Doug: "Great's a stretch"
 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

Just now, Shive said:

Unless it's pretzel day, then all bets are off.

 

  Yeah, you do NOT wanna get between Stanley and his pretzel on pretzel day!

[Lucky Colts Fan]

4 minutes ago, Trueman said:

World : "That Einstein guy was pretty great"

 

Doug:  "Meh, other scientists would have eventually discovered the theory of relativity"

[cbear]

I don't think we miss a beat.  I know Doyle is ranked highly by pff as a great blocking te, but I just don't see it.  In general, maybe average at best.  I think Hewitt is a better blocker and the other three can all catch the ball.  We'll be fine. 

[neug3246]

8 hours ago, DougDew said:

OK, so here we are with this Ebron thing and hope it can be put to bed.  Let me summarize for the forum the events of the past few weeks:

 

Somebody said that Ebron was an amazing signing and backed that up by citing TE stats.

 

Over several argumentative posts that started by someone quoting a comment I made, I said I didn't think it was amazing because he's a receiver, not a TE, so comparing him with TE stats was not really the correct bucket of measurement.

 

Then without directly acknowledging my correctness, comments over the past few days have begun to lump him in with receiver stats in an effort to validate the previous opinion that he's amazing.

 

I then said that the stats of other receivers are created by going against actual CBs, not knowing for sure how much Ebron actually does.  So putting him into the receiver bucket of stats isn't a true comparison either.  The NFL, or PFF, doesn't really have a big universe peer group bucket to put him in.

 

Then compare these points to the 30, 000 foot level concepts about offense.

 

Myself, Superman, and some others have for years claimed the old offense struggled at times due to scheme simplicity.  And that someone like McDaniels...or Reich....would implement a scheme that by its nature got receivers more open.

 

So we have an offense that schemes receivers open more.  

 

We have a thread now that talks about possibly devoting a first round pick to a WR, with a bunch of comments saying that it isn't needed due to our scheme. 

 

Despite the improper and unclear bucket to put him in, the entire change of offense for the expressed purpose of scheming receivers open, comments still make their stubbornly boneheaded point by the same members swooping in and trying to make condescending comments to me over the coarse of a week in different threads.

 

We changed HCs and offensive scheme for the express purpose to get receivers open.  Detroit has a different scheme (that probably relies more on talent).  Ebron doesn't belong in the TE stat bucket because of the other roles that other TEs do, nor the WR bucket because of who is assigned coverage of other WRs.  So make your points with those facts in mind, and do so without quoting me in a condescending fashion, and maybe the forum will be less argumentative.

 

 

So I am confused if he isn't a tight end but he isn't a WR where would I play him in my fantasy line up. ESPN has him listed at tight end only, cant play him as a wide receive, and in my PPR league I am not gonna play him in the flex over my three stud running backs. @DougDew WHERE DO I PLAY EBRON????

[DougDew]

8 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Doug:  "Meh, other scientists would have eventually discovered the theory of relativity"

Einstein actually discovered something the average person was unaware of, so to us folks who were unaware of it, the theory was amazing.  Not sure how his nonignorant scientist peers would have described it at the time.

 

Just because Ebron was labeled "sucked" by the forum mob because he let them down in their fantasy football stat game, doesn't mean he actually sucked you know.  Inversely, to those folks who had that opinion of him, I guess Ebron's performance this year is amazing.

 

So, do you really think this whole thing caused by my word usage, that using meh instead of amazing is the problem?

 

Or do you think its because the guys who swoop in have the attitude that they just gotta set people straight, no matter how petty, and they just won't let it go.

 

BTW, I have said at least twice now that Ebron was a good signing, but I haven't read where you actually answered my question:

 

Did we change coaches to first McDaniels then to Reich because we wanted an offense that schemed receivers open?

 

 

[lollygagger8]

Sunuva! 

 

Get better soon Jack! 

[DougDew]

16 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

Sunuva! 

 

Get better soon Jack! 

Hey man, I know it looks bad, but that's the social media mob tactic.  Attack with 5 people so the pecked hen has to defend himself with 5 times as many posts.  Then claim he is the cause of the problem.

 

 

[jvan1973]

30 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Hey man, I know it looks bad, but that's the social media mob tactic.  Attack with 5 people so the pecked hen has to defend himself with 5 times as many posts.  Then claim he is the cause of the problem.

 

 

An odd response to the quoted post.   How are they related?

[aaron11]

33 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Hey man, I know it looks bad, but that's the social media mob tactic.  Attack with 5 people so the pecked hen has to defend himself with 5 times as many posts.  Then claim he is the cause of the problem.

 

 

its not a mob tactic.  this is what happens when everyone thinks you are wrong, you get called out by a bunch of individuals 

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

An odd response to the quoted post.   How are they related?

How is what related?  My response is related to the quoted post because I chose to relate them. I assume Aaron11 figured that out.

 

6 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

its not a mob tactic.  this is what happens when everyone thinks you are wrong, you get called out by a bunch of individuals 

Called out about what exactly?  That using the word meh instead of amazing is wrong, and that everyone, or a bunch of individuals who think alike (aka mob) just hasta set me straight?

  

[aaron11]

Just now, DougDew said:

How is what related?  My response is related to the quoted post because I chose to relate them. I assume Aaron11 figured that out.

 

Called out about what exactly?  That using the word meh instead of amazing is wrong, and the bunch of individuals who think alike (aka mob) just hasta set me straight?

  

ebron of course.  i am not part of any mob though, you have a unique stance that pretty much no one agrees with.  theres a difference 

[jvan1973]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

How is what related?  My response is related to the quoted post because I chose to relate them. I assume Aaron11 figured that out.

 

 

  

You quoted lollygagger who was upset doyle is out.   Your response doesn't fit with the quoted post

[DougDew]

 

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

You quoted lollygagger who was upset doyle is out.   Your response doesn't fit with the quoted post

Ok, I can see it that way.   You actually had a helpful post.  Thank you.

 

 

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

ebron of course.  i am not part of any mob though, you have a unique stance that pretty much no one agrees with.  theres a difference 

My unique stance seems to be that I think of him as a receiver from the TE position and that the signing was meh (sort of synonymous with good) which is in contrast to amazing.  Other than that, I'm not sure what so many are trying to argue about.

 

Maybe my unique stance is that I consider the fact that we hired Josh or Frank to install an offense that helped scheme receivers open.  Judging from the crickets I've received to that question, I assume my stance is unique about that too.

[luckyBatistuta]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

My unique stance seems to be that I think of him as a receiver from the TE position and that the signing was meh (sort of synonymous with good) which is in contrast to amazing.  Other than that, I'm not sure what so many are trying to argue about.

 

Maybe my unique stance is that I consider the fact that we hired Josh or Frank to install an offense that helped scheme receivers open.  Judging from the crickets I've received to that question, I assume my stance is unique about that too.

 

Do you think he will be listed as a WR next season?

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

My unique stance seems to be that I think of him as a receiver from the TE position and that the signing was meh (sort of synonymous with good) which is in contrast to amazing.  Other than that, I'm not sure what so many are trying to argue about.

 

Maybe my unique stance is that I consider the fact that we hired Josh or Frank to install an offense that helped scheme receivers open.  Judging from the crickets I've received to that question, I assume my stance is unique about that too.

All offenses that have passing plays in the playbook try to scheme receivers open.   

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

 

Do you think he will be listed as a WR next season?

IDK.  Lost in all of this wash was a comment from someone who said he was introduced as a receiver and not a TE over the PA.  I don't know if the person was joking or if that was actually the case.

 

But I don't think calling him a WR is really appropriate since he never lines up wide, AFAIK.  Maybe he will.

 

In this whole stupid epic, another question has come up.

 

What does Ebron weigh, and is there anything significant he couldn't have done this year if he was 20 pounds lighter?   I think Doyle would struggle to carry out his role.

[DougDew]

36 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

All offenses that have passing plays in the playbook try to scheme receivers open.   

That's a simple statement that is factually correct but ignores the basic point. 

 

The differences between Chud and Reich results in a greater emphasis on route combinations to create open spaces rather than using talent to create them.  I can't explain it in terms of x's and o's but I think that is an accurate statement.  

 

Therefore, it would also be a system that makes it easier for a GM to find receivers for, IMO.  And that opinion is the basis of my opinion in the other thread about why we don't need to devote a first round pick for a WR.

[luckyBatistuta]

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

IDK.  Lost in all of this wash was a comment from someone who said he was introduced as a receiver and not a TE over the PA.  I don't know if the person was joking or if that was actually the case.

 

But I don't think calling him a WR is really appropriate since he never lines up wide, AFAIK.  Maybe he will.

 

In this whole stupid epic, another question has come up.

 

What does Ebron weigh, and is there anything significant he couldn't have done this year if he was 20 pounds lighter?   I think Doyle would struggle to carry out his role.

 

I don’t know about the PA, I’m in Edinburgh, Scotland. If he is listed as a WR next season though, I’ll doff my hat to you. Until then though bud...he’s a TE.

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Hey man, I know it looks bad, but that's the social media mob tactic.  Attack with 5 people so the pecked hen has to defend himself with 5 times as many posts.  Then claim he is the cause of the problem.

 

In truth, I don't think you're the main problem. It's a communication breakdown, and it happens with a lot of posts. Here's an example and I'm not quoting you or anyone directly here, just a theoretical example:

 

"That was a bad signing"

 

"I think that was a bad signing"

 

On the surface these statements both say the same things, however English in written form can be complicated. The problem that some will have with the first statement, is that they will feel it lessens the importance of their posts, because the statement comes off as a fact instead of an opinion. The latter statement creates ownership of the post, and marks less of a chance of the whole hen pecking thing. 

 

There will of course still be some that get upset over your opinions, but it will be significantly less than what you're dealing with now...

 

Personally, I see you as a "not too high, not too low" kind of person. That's not a mark against you Doug. You try not to get too excited over something, and that's fine. 

 

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

 

I don’t know about the PA, I’m in Edinburgh, Scotland. If he is listed as a WR next season though, I’ll doff my hat to you. Until then though bud...he’s a TE.

Why go so far as to imply that I think he should be officially listed as a WideR when I simply have been calling him a receiver?    

 

If its true about the PA and he was introduced as a receiver, I assume how he was introduced over the PA was at the request of the Colts and/or Ebron himself.  If so, that carries more weight with me than outdated positional description buckets that people other than the Colts or the player would use.   I guess it doesn't with you, and that's okay with me   bud.

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

 

In truth, I don't think you're the main problem. It's a communication breakdown, and it happens with a lot of posts. Here's an example and I'm not quoting you or anyone directly here, just a theoretical example:

 

"That was a bad signing"

 

"I think that was a bad signing"

 

On the surface these statements both say the same things, however English in written form can be complicated. The problem that some will have with the first statement, is that they will feel it lessens the importance of their posts, because the statement comes off as a fact instead of an opinion. The latter statement creates ownership of the post, and marks less of a chance of the whole hen pecking thing. 

 

There will of course still be some that get upset over your opinions, but it will be significantly less than what you're dealing with now...

 

Personally, I see you as a "not too high, not too low" kind of person. That's not a mark against you Doug. You try not to get too excited over something, and that's fine. 

 

OMG.  Others swoop in with the term nonsense, or your objectively wrong, and they don't qualify it as their opinion.   I use the term I think.  I use the word tend.  I use the word seem.  They just refuse to read it out of some strawman reading pattern.

 

Check out my most recent post.  The guy quotes me and implies I'm saying Ebron is a WR, when for about 10 years, I've called guys like Ebron, Fleener, Clark, Tamme, Pollard, etc simply receivers.   They read stuff and can't comprehend it, but assume I said whatever it is they can comprehend, then attack me for being wrong.  Bud.

 

Nope.  Me pointing out stuff like this is what cause them to want to attack, and they default to using strawman reading to justify it.  Stop using strawman, and I'll stop pointing it out.  If you can't comprehend, don't swoop in for the attack.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Did we change coaches to first McDaniels then to Reich because we wanted an offense that schemed receivers open?

 

Yes, we have switched to an offensive scheme that gets the ball out quickly to RBs and WRs on short routes near or even behind the LOS.

 

When defenses start to key on that, TEs have more space to work in intermediate and deep areas of the field, where Ebron is absolutely killing it this year.

 

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Einstein actually discovered something the average person was unaware of, so to us folks who were unaware of it, the theory was amazing.  Not sure how his nonignorant scientist peers would have described it at the time.

 

Thank you for the insight, Buzz Killington.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, DougDew said:

If its true about the PA and he was introduced as a receiver, I assume how he was introduced over the PA was at the request of the Colts and/or Ebron himself.

 

I mentioned this.  You know the graphic they put on the screen at the beginning of games that has the player names and positions?  CBS had Ebron as a WR.  Maybe it was a typo since his name was next to another WR on the graphic.  I don't know.

 

No offense Stanley, but you make this forum less fun, and football is supposed to be fun. 

[RollerColt]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

OMG.  Others swoop in with the term nonsense, or your objectively wrong, and they don't qualify it as their opinion.   I use the term I think.  I use the word tend.  I use the word seem.  They just refuse to read it out of some strawman reading pattern.

Sorry, I didn't mean to set you off like that. My post wasn't meant as an attack and while I did quote you it was meant for others as well. 

 

I'll leave it at that, and move on. Again, I mean no ill towards you. We're all Colts family here.

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Yes, we have switched to an offensive scheme that gets the ball out quickly to RBs and WRs on short routes near or even behind the LOS.

 

When defenses start to key on that, TEs have more space to work in intermediate and deep areas of the field, where Ebron is absolutely killing it this year.

 

 

Thank you for the insight, Buzz Killington.

 

 

 

 

I mentioned this.  You know the graphic they put on the screen at the beginning of games that has the player names and positions?  CBS had Ebron as a WR.  Maybe it was a typo since his name was next to another WR on the graphic.  I don't know.

 

No offense Stanley, but you make this forum less fun, and football is supposed to be fun. 

If you want fun, then stop arguing over what my opinion should be when I state it.  Why is that my fault?

 

BTW, there are several to many other members on this forum who get quoted and responded to in the same manner by the same members.  They are simply not ogreish enough like me to carry it out to the end, so they don't show up.  That's fine.

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to set you off like that. My post wasn't meant as an attack and while I did quote you it was meant for others as well. 

 

I'll leave it at that, and move on. Again, I mean no ill towards you. We're all Colts family here.

Yeah, the beginning of it I thought was wrong.  The rest was cool.  I hope you had a chance to read the post I was referring to.  No offense to him at all.  I don't think the strawman was intentional, I honestly think that's the way many read what I write.  Incorrect implications are used as a basis of attacks recently.  I'm kinda getting tired of it.

[luckyBatistuta]

22 minutes ago, DougDew said:

OMG.  Others swoop in with the term nonsense, or your objectively wrong, and they don't qualify it as their opinion.   I use the term I think.  I use the word tend.  I use the word seem.  They just refuse to read it out of some strawman reading pattern.

 

Check out my most recent post.  The guy quotes me and implies I'm saying Ebron is a WR, when for about 10 years, I've called guys like Ebron, Fleener, Clark, Tamme, Pollard, etc simply receivers.   They read stuff and can't comprehend it, but assume I said whatever it is they can comprehend, then attack me for being wrong.  Bud.

 

Nope.  Me pointing out stuff like this is what cause them to want to attack, and they default to using strawman reading to justify it.  Stop using strawman, and I'll stop pointing it out.  If you can't comprehend, don't swoop in for the attack.

 

If that’s what you’ve been saying for years, fair enough. If you want to take it all personal and say it’s an attack, that’s up to you, but it’s really not. I like others are also allowed an opinion on this forum too. Going by your post, Kelce, Ertz, Ebron, etc are not TE’s and are receivers...who is actually a TE then? You’re entitled to your view, I’m just questioning it...that’s all.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

If you want fun, then stop arguing over what my opinion should be when I state it.

 

I will disagree with people that I disagree with, I just try to do it in a light-hearted manner because it's really not that serious.  Like meh being synonymous with good, I disagree with that, but if we had all known that was how you were using "meh" at the beginning we might have avoided this whole disaster.

 

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

They are simply not ogreish enough like me to carry it out to the end, so they don't show up.

 

From one ogre to another:  touche.  Now get out of my swamp!    jk (that's from Shrek if you didn't know, not actually telling you to leave)

 

Just try to lighten up and have more fun, man.  We're talking about a game, not the effects of nuclear fallout.

 

[DougDew]

51 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

 

If that’s what you’ve been saying for years, fair enough. If you want to take it all personal and say it’s an attack, that’s up to you, but it’s really not. I like others are also allowed an opinion on this forum too. Going by your post, Kelce, Ertz, Ebron, etc are not TE’s and are receivers...who is actually a TE then? You’re entitled to your view, I’m just questioning it...that’s all.

Well, in basketball, is a swingman a forward or a guard?  The answer is yes.  IMO, the swingman is a different player than the players we typically refer to as Gs or Fs. I guess the media and the basketball folks have figured out a new title.  I don't think the football gods have done that yet.  

 

Its been my observation that when teams want to run a two TE base set, they don't try to find 4 Jack Doyles, Dwayne Allens, or Ken Dilger's.  The receiver's in that set would be Ebron, Fleener, and Pollard (Clark was a receiver but really had no TE counterpart because Manning wanted as many guys out in the pattern as possible, so there wasn't much use for one). Despite having Doyle under a healthy contract, we signed Ebron because Swoope has not established himself.

 

Gronkowski is a very good TE.  When defenses put too many light DBs on the field to cover him, he tucks into the LOS and NE power blocks the running game.  None of those receiver types can do that, IMO.  Doyle is a lesser Gronk, and really isn't comparable to Ebron, IMO.

 

As I said before somewhere, I'm biased against guys like Kelce, Ertz, Ebron, Fleener, Clark, etc because I think their stats are somewhat manufactured out of scheme, whereas guys like DA, Dilger and Doyle get numbers and have value despite the scheme. 

 

So when it comes to judging just how good one of those receivers are, I have a hard time doing it and can't get to the point others more easily get to.  They're all kinda meh.  Scheme driven.  More easily replaced than many think, IMO. Its a successful scheme, but its not the same thing as an amazing OT for example who is amazing no matter where he goes. That is the basis for this whole stupid epic, and I'm tired of explaining it to every reactive hot head who swoops in to pick a fight to set me straight about what my opinion should be.  Thanks for asking a reasonable question.

[lollygagger8]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

Hey man, I know it looks bad, but that's the social media mob tactic.  Attack with 5 people so the pecked hen has to defend himself with 5 times as many posts.  Then claim he is the cause of the problem.

 

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

There all kinda meh.

 

Stanley, you just called Pro-Bowl TEs "meh".  Do you see how the average fan is going to react to that?  The average fan considers "meh" as "not good" and those are good TEs you're calling "meh"...  Your opinion and the words you use to communicate it is foreign to the average fan.

 

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

That is the basis for this whole stupid epic, and I'm tired of explaining it to every reactive hot head who swoops in to pick a fight to set me straight, so I give bits and pieces of it when they do to see what happens. 

 

I think I see the disconnect here.  You are not an average fan.  I don't want to label you unfairly, but I would call you an "elitist fan".  Nothing really impresses you because if a player is excelling, they're just doing their job, which is not amazing.  Is that a fair assessment?

 

Whereas the average fan sees a player excelling against world-class opposition and they are impressed.  So far as to be willing to call it "amazing".

[hoosierhawk]

Doug, since when is 'meh' synonymous with good? I think that confused a lot of us. Then you keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

[Coffeedrinker]

17 hours ago, DougDew said:

Then without directly acknowledging my correctness,

 

Oh man, this is hilarious.  Your correctness is not acknowledged because it is non existent.

 

But I do agree with you.  Ebron was an amazing signing, he has done an incredible job as a TE.  And Ballard is proving to be a much better GM than Grigson.

[Smoke317]

I can't believe people are still having this troll debate...    Some people just have to be contrarian and by continuing to respond, you're all making DD the happiest person on this forum.  Only a fool would say Ebron was a meh signing.  The guy is leading the league in TD receptions...  What is there to debate?  The semantics of whether he's a tight end or not???  Who cares?  Do ya'll really think DD cares???  He doesn't but he sure got ya'll responding... 

 

Then he expands it to all receiving tight ends and calls all of them meh (another foolish statement) to continue the debate.  As if anyone could be so upset that offenses have evolved and are now using tight ends as offensive weapons as opposed to just inline blockers who occasionally catch short dump offs...  So I guess Dirk Nowitzki wasn't really a power forward because he had the audacity to shoot 3's instead of staying under the basket to rebound and only set screens like Mr. Naismith first envisioned...  Time to stop feeding the troll.

[NagelHausForge]

10 hours ago, cbear said:

I don't think we miss a beat.  I know Doyle is ranked highly by pff as a great blocking te, but I just don't see it.  In general, maybe average at best.  I think Hewitt is a better blocker and the other three can all catch the ball.  We'll be fine. 

 

One biiiiiiiig problem, Amigo.... Hewitt, Swoope and Cox are all malingering on the injury report.  Unless that changes this week the Colts will have 1 active TE.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

11 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Some people just have to be contrarian and by continuing to respond, you're all making DD the happiest person on this forum.  Only a fool would say Ebron was a meh signing.

 

Then he expands it to all receiving tight ends and calls all of them meh (another foolish statement) to continue the debate.

 

If Stanley really meant to start a multi-thread discourse to rile up half the forum members with the simple use of the word "meh"... well, my hat's off to him , because it worked like a charm! 

 

I think that would qualify for the Troll-Of-The-Year award.

 

Hopefully he didn't actually mean to do that and he's just more like this guy:

"Hmmm, yes, everything is quite meh, I do say.  Quite meh.  I'm in the mood for a good old fashioned filibuster.  Yes, quite."

[DougDew]

19 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I can't believe people are still having this troll debate...    Some people just have to be contrarian and by continuing to respond, you're all making DD the happiest person on this forum.  Only a fool would say Ebron was a meh signing.  The guy is leading the league in TD receptions...  What is there to debate?  The semantics of whether he's a tight end or not???  Who cares?  Do ya'll really think DD cares???  He doesn't but he sure got ya'll responding... 

 

Then he expands it to all receiving tight ends and calls all of them meh (another foolish statement) to continue the debate.  As if anyone could be so upset that offenses have evolved and are now using tight ends as offensive weapons as opposed to just inline blockers who occasionally catch short dump offs...  So I guess Dirk Nowitzki wasn't really a power forward because he had the audacity to shoot 3's instead of staying under the basket to rebound and only set screens like Mr. Naismith first envisioned...  Time to stop feeding the troll.

Its not a debate.  From my point of view, it was an opinion with support for it when challenged.

 

Others see it as a debate because they are uncomfortable to read a different opinion and must make sure opposing opinions are converted.  That's what a debate is and that's why people who think like that would call it a debate, and why debates are often bucketed as being won and lost.  See the difference, and where you fit in?