TE Jack Doyle expected to be placed on I.R.

[jvan1973]

15 minutes ago, C0LT5 said:

=good

[DougDew]

34 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

You're not comparing the same thing.  I'm not saying Cam Newton is a good QB because he runs fast.  But he is a good QB in the Panthers scheme because the scheme uses is physical and mental talents; some of which are his running ability and knowing when to run vs when to pull up and pass the ball.

 

As far as stats, yes stats in an of themselves mean very little (that is why football bases wins and losses on a score rather than stats) and some stats are more important than others.  On the flip side though, what you call "data points" (although why you would use a software term for football stats is beyond me) then you are claiming that no football player can be compared to another football player because the data points are all different.  But the reality is football players have to be compared to other similar players, they have to be compared for probowl, all probowl consideration, players of the week, year, MVP, drafting, contract negotiations, etc.  And just as an FYI, the argument you have tried to use for Ebron, Jimmy Graham tried to make that argument in 2014, Saints placed the Franchise tag on him and he wanted to be considered an WR because the average salary of the top 5 WRs was much higher than the average salary of the top 5 TEs.  The arbitrator ruled that he was a TE.

 

Oh, I thought you were saying his ability to succeed in the league was due to having more of a run-based offense for him than say a Kirk Cousins.  But you're sort of supporting my point, in order to compare Cam to other QBs, you have to look at how the offense is designed around him, or with his talents in mind.  Its why I devalue those receiving TEs compared to other positions, its a scheme gimmick, to be harsh about it. Very popular and a legitimate scheme because it can work, but its a strategic choice to make, unlike a universal choice of simply trying to find the best LT around no matter what.   

 

To be clear, I'm not saying that anybody should be placed in a WR bucket, since they don't line up wide, or to be placed in any other bucket. 

 

Maybe we should throw a RB into a receivers bucket if he was used so much in that way that he caught a lot of TDs when lining up in the backfield.  Would his YPC matter as much?

 

I guess I understand what Graham was saying and that he had a bit of a basis for it going all the way to arbitration, but I'm sure it was viewed as a ploy for more money.  Dwayne Allen is going to get shot down on day 1 if he took that stance.

[Coffeedrinker]

45 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Oh, I thought you were saying his ability to succeed in the league was due to having more of a run-based offense for him than say a Kirk Cousins.  But you're sort of supporting my point, in order to compare Cam to other QBs, you have to look at how the offense is designed around him, or with his talents in mind. 

I've never said anything different.  And that is what makes Ballard a very good GM, he is finding players with the talents the HC, OC and DC want int their players

45 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Its why I devalue those receiving TEs compared to other positions, its a scheme gimmick, to be harsh about it. Very popular and a legitimate scheme because it can work, but its a strategic choice to make, unlike a universal choice of simply trying to find the best LT around no matter what.  

  You can devalue anything you want but it does show a lack of understanding of the real world.  There is no one way to win the NFL, so by extension there is rarely a consensus best player at any position.  In 2018 there was... Q. Nelson and Ballard drafted him.

45 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

 

To be clear, I'm not saying that anybody should be placed in a WR bucket, since they don't line up wide, or to be placed in any other bucket. 

 

Maybe we should throw a RB into a receivers bucket if he was used so much in that way that he caught a lot of TDs when lining up in the backfield.  Would his YPC matter as much?

 

I guess I understand what Graham was saying and that he had a bit of a basis for it going all the way to arbitration, but I'm sure it was viewed as a ploy for more money.  Dwayne Allen is going to get shot down on day 1 if he took that stance.

After reading this, all I can say is, you have a hole in your bucket.

[DougDew]

23 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I've never said anything different.  And that is what makes Ballard a very good GM, he is finding players with the talents the HC, OC and DC want int their players

  You can devalue anything you want but it does show a lack of understanding of the real world.  There is no one way to win the NFL, so by extension there is rarely a consensus best player at any position.  In 2018 there was... Q. Nelson and Ballard drafted him.

After reading this, all I can say is, you have a hole in your bucket.

And in this entire dynamic, the direction of the comments was me expressing an opinion, and you commenting upon them being wrong.  Nowhere was the dynamic about me judging your opinions or toning the comments towards putting you on the defensive.

 

And you still have to say something about Ballard being a good GM when nothing I've said indicates contradiction.  It shows you are obsessed and lack awareness of your surroundings.

 

To sum up the forum atmosphere, the people who constantly are obsessed by Ballard are the ones launching the attacks into others' expressed opinions about other things.

 

Thank you.  That was actually my end game.  Its why I stuck around.  To have someone like you show the rest of the forum what I'm talking about.  You guys are all about Ballard, have some sort of sensitivity towards the issue, and its been two years since the switch.  Move on.

[jvan1973]

45 minutes ago, DougDew said:

And in this entire dynamic, the direction of the comments was me expressing an opinion, and you commenting upon them being wrong.  Nowhere was the dynamic about me judging your opinions or toning the comments towards putting you on the defensive.

 

And you still have to say something about Ballard being a good GM when nothing I've said indicates contradiction.  It shows you are obsessed and lack awareness of your surroundings.

 

To sum up the forum atmosphere, the people who constantly are obsessed by Ballard are the ones launching the attacks into others' expressed opinions about other things.

 

Thank you.  That was actually my end game.  Its why I stuck around.  To have someone like you show the rest of the forum what I'm talking about.  You guys are all about Ballard, have some sort of sensitivity towards the issue, and its been two years since the switch.  Move on.

The definition of "meh" is not good.   That's where you feel off the cliff hard.       You can't give credit where credit is due.   Ebron is clearly the superior player to swoope.  It's not to say swoope isn't a good player.   Your constant need to be a contrarian is why you think it's a mob mentality.   It's not a mob mentality,   it's you trying to poo poo most threads.   And the fact you don't know the definition of "meh"

[Lucky Colts Fan]

And scene.  Good job everybody.  Let's call it a day, go home and kiss the wife & kids before bed.

[MikeCurtis]

16 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Dear Jack Doyle,

 

    Hopefully you never read this thread.  But if you do, sorry for what we have turned it into.  Shame on us.

 

Get well soon,

Your fans

I thought that this thread was about TEs...............

 

[HOZER]

Ugh really sucks that Doyles out, this team is better with him on the field. Hope he comes back next season better then ever, because.............

[TheMarine]

On 11/27/2018 at 3:19 AM, neug3246 said:

WHERE DO I PLAY EBRON????

Well I personally play him in the Flex position, as I have Zack Ertz as well.

He's a great TE in the RZ being asked to make a single move. Great signing by Ballard, great fit in what Reich wants to do, and has shown he can catch the ball reliably.

[Coffeedrinker]

12 hours ago, DougDew said:

And in this entire dynamic, the direction of the comments was me expressing an opinion, and you commenting upon them being wrong.  Nowhere was the dynamic about me judging your opinions or toning the comments towards putting you on the defensive.

Oh my word you are a cry baby.  But other than when you tried to claim that Ebron is not a TE when did I say your opinion was wrong?

12 hours ago, DougDew said:

 

And you still have to say something about Ballard being a good GM when nothing I've said indicates contradiction.  It shows you are obsessed and lack awareness of your surroundings.

Really how?  Ballard is the current GM of the Colts talking about him is not unusual.

12 hours ago, DougDew said:

 

To sum up the forum atmosphere, the people who constantly are obsessed by Ballard are the ones launching the attacks into others' expressed opinions about other things.

So, in your opinion, you can express your opinion but if others express their opinion and it's different than yours then they are:

Attacking you

Obsessed

Lack awareness of the surroundings.

12 hours ago, DougDew said:

 

Thank you.  That was actually my end game.  Its why I stuck around.  To have someone like you show the rest of the forum what I'm talking about.  You guys are all about Ballard, have some sort of sensitivity towards the issue, and its been two years since the switch.  Move on.

Move on?  So we are not allowed talk about the current GM of the Colts... well, apparently, unless it's to say he messed up or is just doing the same thing that any other GM would do.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Move on?  So we are not allowed talk about the current GM of the Colts... well, apparently, unless it's to say he messed up or is just doing the same thing that any other GM would do.

 

It's really not unusual that people are hopeful that the current GM is better than the previous GM. The previous GM didn't do a good job building the roster; we're all anxious to see the current GM outperform him. There's nothing obsessive about that.

[DougDew]

22 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Oh my word you are a cry baby.  But other than when you tried to claim that Ebron is not a TE when did I say your opinion was wrong?

Really how?  Ballard is the current GM of the Colts talking about him is not unusual.

So, in your opinion, you can express your opinion but if others express their opinion and it's different than yours then they are:

Attacking you

Obsessed

Lack awareness of the surroundings.

Move on?  So we are not allowed talk about the current GM of the Colts... well, apparently, unless it's to say he messed up or is just doing the same thing that any other GM would do.

At least you seem interested in responding with more than just a snappy one liner, so I'll ask you.

 

What exactly are the 15 (aka mob) "disagreeing" about.....aka arguing. Is it...

 

1) I said Ebron is a receiver.  Note, that doesn't say he ISN'T a TE.

 

2) Ebron, Ertz, Kelce, Graham, Fleener, Clark, Pollard etc all accumulate TD stats by being in the NFL solely because of a two TE set.  So when someone says how amazing he is by quoting stats that lumps them in with Doyle or Allen, it becomes tainted praise, IMO.  If you want to carve out a bucket to compare Ebron with his peers, those types of players who would be out of the league if it weren't for scheme, then that's different. But nobody ever does.

 

3) If you group him in with receivers, maybe we should, (notice there was a maybe in front of that should) then consider other receivers who get TDs get them by actually competing against a DB, and in the case of better receivers, are often double teamed and accumulate their stats against TWO dbs.  An overall lower number of TDs despite being overall more amazing.

 

4) What couldn't Ebron, and his peers, do if they were 20 lbs lighter?  Make it painfully obvious to old-school defensive coaches that the TEs not going to block, where carrying the extra 20 lbs and happening to line up next to the OT fools the game planners into thinking he might?  If game planers were Pagano who want LBs like Morrison, I'd say yes, that's the point of carrying the extra 20 lbs.

 

So when I say.......meh, hes not that amazing and its not that hard to find other guys who could do it including our own practice squad players.....I'm not going to write a white paper essay explaining the theory of re-bucketing certain receivers on a football forum.

 

And YES, my statement was not taken by you, and many, as having these possibilities, but was taken as being some sort of cute, indirect, shot on Ballard, because that's the way many people view every comment and every thread on this forum....whether or not is it pro or con (aka neutral) Ballard.  Obsessive bias.

 

And some are obsessed so much that they regard a neutral (in their mind con) comment towards Ballard as automatically pro-Grigson....and its been nearly two years LOL

 

[RollerColt]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

So when I say.......meh, hes not that amazing and its not that hard to find other guys who could do it including our own practice squad players.....

I think you'll have a chance for this to be proven right in the next five games or so. It's going to be interesting what Reich decides to do now that Doyle is out for good this year. Does he continue using Ebron in the "receiver" role, or will he be mixed around more often than in the past games?

 

I really need to go back and look at the game tape to see how Ebron was when he was in for blocking... 

[Barry Sears]

This topic is about 6 pages too long.

 

Doyle on IR, Colts will miss him, hope he's better soon, next man up. 

 

There, I said all that needed to be said in one post.  These nitpicking arguments that go on and on and on are taking the fun out of this Forum.  If you all want to argue, then do it with messages to each other.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

This is the song that never ends.

It just goes on and on my friends.

Some people started singing it not knowing what it was.

And they'll continue singing it forever just because...

 

[aaron11]

On 11/27/2018 at 1:56 PM, DougDew said:

A mob reacts irrationally.  

 

I'm waiting for many who criticized by opinion of meh to answer a rational question.

 

Did we switch coaches to McDaniels then Reich to, in a big part, modernize the offense to where scheme helps receivers get open?

 

I think there are about 5 members who have yet to show us they are not part of an irrational mob.  

scheme is not whats getting him these tds.  hes hes just more athletic than most guys his size 

[Superman]

6 hours ago, DougDew said:

If you want to carve out a bucket to compare Ebron with his peers, those types of players who would be out of the league if it weren't for scheme

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

20 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

Yeah, the whole scheme argument is lost on me.

 

Yes, we switched to a good scheme that opens it up for certain role-players.  We acquired a role-player that is playing their particular role exceptionally well.  Better than any other role-player playing that role in this scheme for this team, and better than any other role-player playing the same role in the same scheme for another team.

 

Yes, you have to give credit to the scheme, but you have to give just as much credit to the players executing the scheme well...

 

Trying to take any credit away seems like a very roundabout argument to me.

 

[NagelHausForge]

Ummmm...  I was told there would be conversation here about Doyle, his going on IR, and how the Colts can succeed without him.... am I in the right forum or should I.....

[Superman]

1 hour ago, NagelHausForge said:

Ummmm...  I was told there would be conversation here about Doyle, his going on IR, and how the Colts can succeed without him.... am I in the right forum or should I.....

 

[NagelHausForge]

15 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

So it's come to this... I am the "Toby" of this thread now.... *sigh*....

[SteelCityColt]

So to summarise, after 7 pages, can we all agree that Ebron is potentially in the bucket of being a human being? 

 

I really boggle at that we’re arguing about a player who has great production thus far and a relatively low cost. Good job that other teams in the league are so sporting in not doing exactly the same thing, it being so easy to do. Heck just go grab any two guys off a local basket ball court. 

 

I will say this against Ebron though, the sleeves.. they annoy me.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

So to summarise, after 7 pages, can we all agree that Ebron is potentially in the bucket of being a human being? 

 

I really boggle that we’re arguing about a player who has great production thus far and a relatively low cost. Good job that other teams in the league are so sporting in not doing exactly the same thing, it being so easy to do. Heck just go grab any two guys off a local basket ball court. 

 

I will say this against Ebron though, the sleeves.. they annoy me.

 

For some reason some people in life love to argue just to argue even when they make no sense. Ebron has 12 TD's in 11 games is the Bottomline so that = Great no matter how anyone wants to slice it. Ballard is the GM that signed him and Ebron fits perfect for what we do/our scheme so it was an amazing signing. I could care less how someone wants to label him, meaning a WR, TE, or Receiver, he still has 12 TD's which is GREAT. We can all play hypothetical's with everything but what matters is results and Ebron has 12 TD's. Would Jerry Rice had the career he would've had without Montana and Young and playing in a WestCoast Offense? Would Emmitt Smith be the all-time leading Rusher without a Great Offensive Line? Would Tom Brady have 5 SB wins had the Browns drafted him? It's not about hypothetical's, you have to go by results because results are facts.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

7 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

So to summarise, after 7 pages, can we all agree that Ebron is potentially in the bucket of being a human being?

 

He is potentially being human, yes, but meh, there are other beings, even on the Colts, that could be human just as well if they were in his position.  His humanity is really more a product of being alive.

 

Maybe I just have a unique view on this subject, but if everyone disagrees and swoops in to disagree, they're all trolls.

 

[SteelCityColt]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

For some reason some people in life love to argue just to argue even when they make no sense. Ebron has 12 TD's in 11 games is the Bottomline so that = Great no matter how anyone wants to slice it. Ballard is the GM that signed him and Ebron fits perfect for what we do/our scheme so it was an amazing signing. I could care less how someone wants to label him, meaning a WR, TE, or Receiver, he still has 12 TD's which is GREAT. We can all play hypothetical's with everything but what matters is results and Ebron has 12 TD's. Would Jerry Rice had the career he would've had without Montana and Young and playing in a WestCoast Offense? Would Emmitt Smith be the all-time leading Rusher without a Great Offensive Line? Would Tom Brady have 5 SB wins had the Browns drafted him? It's not about hypothetical's, you have to go by results because results are facts.

 

True stats/results/outcomes are facts but they shouldn’t ever be held up in isolation. So there is some mileage to askimg are you creating that production to the detriment of the team elsewhere. I don’t think we are, but given the injuries outside of Doyle it will certainly be interesting to see how often we go 3 wide with Ebron still on the field or if Walford gets the nod.

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

True stats/results/outcomes are facts but they shouldn’t ever be held up in isolation. So there is some mileage to askimg are you creating that production to the detriment of the team elsewhere. I don’t think we are, but given the injuries outside of Doyle it will certainly be interesting to see how often we go 3 wide with Ebron still on the field or if Walford gets the nod.

Yeah sometimes Stats do not tell the whole story but in Ebron's case his numbers have helped the team win, they aren't even garbage/padding stats. We have needed all of his TD's to win games. I think Swoope is playing this week, so the combo of Ebron and Swoope should be good. Walford will probably see some action as well. If I had to bet on it, I would say Ebron scores at least once this week 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

He is potentially being human, yes, but meh, there are other beings, even on the Colts, that could be human just as well if they were in his position.  His humanity is really more a product of being alive.

 

Maybe I just have a unique view on this subject, but if everyone disagrees and swoops in to disagree, they're all trolls.

 

 

#themob

[SteelCityColt]

On 11/30/2018 at 11:39 PM, Superman said:

 

#themob

 

Admit that you might have taken a slightly too absolute position about Ebron?