TJ Green & Antonio Morrison make NextGen Stats All-Rookie team

[Andrew Luck fan club]

11 hours ago, rockywoj said:

I'm getting older, so perhaps my memory is off, but here's what I recall about Green ...

 

- Immensely physically gifted athlete, but raw DB.  

 

- essentially thrust into a starting role very early, due to injuries to others. 

 

- was actually doing much better than expected for such a raw prospect, but then ...

 

- but then he got injured himself and was knicked up most of the year thereafter

 

- as a result of having been beset by nagging little injuries, he was playing out most of the season at less than 90% and then became, unfairly, a whipping boy called bust by many of the impatient, uninformed vocal minority of Colts Forum posters.  

 

Please forgive me if my recollections are erred, but that is how I remember things T.J. Green going down.  

 

Note - if it were me, I would not have traded down, instead taking Whitehair to be our ROG beside Kelly at C.  What happened happened, though, and TJ Green it is.  I consider it useless and stupid to lament Green for what could have been.  

 

 

You brought up a great point. He seemed to have to come off the field countless times, in countless different games. Seems to get dinged up easily and often. I really hope that stuff doesn't continue. 

[lollygagger8]

Put Green's speed into Morrison, and we'll have something.  

[COLTS449]

5 hours ago, Finball said:

 

I highly disagee with that, save for tackling and coverage ability to some degree.

 

5 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

No it's not. Some things you either have or you don't. You can't coach ball skills or awareness. The definition of instinctive is enough to know that it can't be taught as well. I know he only played safety for 2 years at Clemson but that's enough time to learn how to cover at least.

 

LOL. I think he was playing.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:00 AM, braveheartcolt said:

Nearly a poitive thread. But not quite......

 

It is what is. Not sure if it's fair or not, but Green & Morrison are 2 of the most polarizing players on the Colts roster at the moment.

[braveheartcolt]

3 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

It is what is. Not sure if it's fair or not, but Green & Morrison are 2 of the most polarizing players on the Colts roster at the moment.

True, but I like to give the young men a bit more playing time before I get all positive / negative*

 

*delete as appropriate, unless you were one of the 'Hate Grigson Brigade', then we know what you would select...

[Steamboat_Shaun]

Just now, braveheartcolt said:

True, but I like to give the young men a bit more playing time before I get all positive / negative*

 

*delete as appropriate, unless you were one of the 'Hate Grigson Brigade', then we know what you would select...

 

I'm the same. I think the negativity towards Green stems from his own immaturity, both on the field and on social media. If he focuses on his game, cleans up the penalties, and stops tweeting like an *, I expect that he'll improve. Morrison was kind of a loose cannon that struggled early on, but I thought he actually improved quite a bit as the year progressed and he received more reps.

 

 

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

No it's not. Some things you either have or you don't. You can't coach ball skills or awareness. The definition of instinctive is enough to know that it can't be taught as well. I know he only played safety for 2 years at Clemson but that's enough time to learn how to cover at least.

 

And then there's this:

 

 

Very nice play on the ball at the 15 second mark. He's not totally oblivious. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

And then there's this:

 

 

Very nice play on the ball at the 15 second mark. He's not totally oblivious. 

 

That is a good play, maybe there's hope after all haha. And I think something that people may overlook is how effective he was when the Colts sent him on blitzes last year. He impacted a lot of plays just by getting to the QB insanely fast.

[krunk]

TJ had a nice play in the Bears game as well I thought.  Saw him trail a tight end all the way down the seam.  They threw the ball to him and TJ batted it down.   I just think he has to have a better idea of what's going on out there and then the awareness may grow.   It was a learning experience for him for sure.

[Superman]

It's amazing how many people feel vindicated for wanting Landon Collins after he bounced back from a bad rookie season, but at the same time they're writing off TJ Green. It's a paradox that I can't solve. 

[braveheartcolt]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

It's amazing how many people feel vindicated for wanting Landon Collins after he bounced back from a bad rookie season, but at the same time they're writing off TJ Green. It's a paradox that I can't solve. 

If Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot had babies, none of them could solve it either......

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

It's amazing how many people feel vindicated for wanting Landon Collins after he bounced back from a bad rookie season, but at the same time they're writing off TJ Green. It's a paradox that I can't solve. 

 

Yeah, that's a complete lack of patience combined with a very selective memory. The scouting report on Collins coming out of Bama was that he wasn't particularly great in coverage.

 

For me, the fact that Collins was so bad his rookie year should provide some optimism, as he played safety his entire collegiate career, and was just as bad in his rookie year as Green was, and TJ is still learning the position.

[Valpo2004]

Can someone explain to me how average distance to tackle is a freaking good thing?

[21isSuperman]

56 minutes ago, Superman said:

It's amazing how many people feel vindicated for wanting Landon Collins after he bounced back from a bad rookie season, but at the same time they're writing off TJ Green. It's a paradox that I can't solve. 

Just to play devil's advocate, I think a big contributor to that is that Collins was seen as a far more complete prospect coming out of college than Green.  Collins was known to be a good tackler and PFF ranked him decently well in some coverage stats (https://www.profootballfocus.com/cff-player-profile-landon-collins-s/: ...he only gave up 8.3 yards on average which had him among the 10 best. Overall, he graded well in coverage and came away with six passes defensed (to go with his three interceptions) for the fifth spot in the class, and his 15 stops in the passing game were second-best.)

 

On the other hand, Green was seen as a height-weight-speed type of prospect with great athleticism, but an inability to put it all together on the field.  (https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-2016-nfl-draft-grades-for-all-32-teams/: Green has excellent size and speed, but his -10.8 coverage grade ranked last among the safeties in the class. He may switch to cornerback in the pros, but either way he is a risk at this point in the draft.)

 

So on one hand, you have a safety in Collins with good college tape who had a bad rookie year; some might forgive this and attribute it to being a rookie and having to transition to the pros.  There is/was optimism for him despite his poor performances as a rookie because his college tape showed there was still lots of talent to work with.  Collins had talent and didn't perform in his rookie year, which isn't always a cause for concern.

 

On the other hand, you have a safety in Green with awful college tape who had a bad rookie year, showing the same coverage problems he had as a college player.  There is significantly less optimism for Green because he has shown a lack of awareness in coverage, despite what a self-promoted highlight clip might show.  Add in that our coaching staff doesn't know how to put players in the best positions and isn't able to maximize talent and the final product is a player who many see as overrated, overdrafted, and underwhelming.

 

This isn't to say Green is completely useless, but I think the cases of Collins and Green are completely different and that's why they are judged differently.

[Superman]

30 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Can someone explain to me how average distance to tackle is a freaking good thing?

 

It means they ran a lot. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

9 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Green has excellent size and speed, but his -10.8 coverage grade ranked last among the safeties in the class. He may switch to cornerback in the pros, but either way he is a risk at this point in the draft.)

 

I'd be open to trying him at corner in training camp and the preseason just to see how he looks. It's honestly difficult to imagine him being worse than the Robinsons and Tolers of the world.

[PeterBowman]

I do know that the last parts of the season Morrison was actually starting to make some good plays in the run game. Still not great in coverage but I think he could at least be a decent contributor to the team going forward.

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Just to play devil's advocate, I think a big contributor to that is that Collins was seen as a far more complete prospect coming out of college than Green.  Collins was known to be a good tackler and PFF ranked him decently well in some coverage stats (https://www.profootballfocus.com/cff-player-profile-landon-collins-s/: ...he only gave up 8.3 yards on average which had him among the 10 best. Overall, he graded well in coverage and came away with six passes defensed (to go with his three interceptions) for the fifth spot in the class, and his 15 stops in the passing game were second-best.)

 

On the other hand, Green was seen as a height-weight-speed type of prospect with great athleticism, but an inability to put it all together on the field.  (https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-2016-nfl-draft-grades-for-all-32-teams/: Green has excellent size and speed, but his -10.8 coverage grade ranked last among the safeties in the class. He may switch to cornerback in the pros, but either way he is a risk at this point in the draft.)

 

So on one hand, you have a safety in Collins with good college tape who had a bad rookie year; some might forgive this and attribute it to being a rookie and having to transition to the pros.  There is/was optimism for him despite his poor performances as a rookie because his college tape showed there was still lots of talent to work with.  Collins had talent and didn't perform in his rookie year, which isn't always a cause for concern.

 

On the other hand, you have a safety in Green with awful college tape who had a bad rookie year, showing the same coverage problems he had as a college player.  There is significantly less optimism for Green because he has shown a lack of awareness in coverage, despite what a self-promoted highlight clip might show.  Add in that our coaching staff doesn't know how to put players in the best positions and isn't able to maximize talent and the final product is a player who many see as overrated, overdrafted, and underwhelming.

 

This isn't to say Green is completely useless, but I think the cases of Collins and Green are completely different and that's why they are judged differently.

 

No doubt Collins was considered to be a better prospect than Green, but that's obvious when you consider that one was drafted at #33 (slid outside the first round, which surprised most people), and the other was drafted at #57. 

 

And this is where I point out that PFF sometimes doesn't know what they're talking about. Collins wasn't good in coverage in college, he was used in a way that didn't require him to do a lot in coverage, especially man coverage, especially down the field. TJ Green was used all over the field. He also wasn't good in coverage, but we're talking about two different schemes with basically two different positions. 

 

I'll also point out that Green didn't have awful college tape, despite what PFF says. His flaws were obvious, but he also made a lot of plays, and his positive traits were obvious. 

 

End of the day, my point is simple, and I don't think it's arguable: Sometimes, rookies play bad, then get better. It's almost expected. There's no reason to act like a bad rookie season means a player is a lost cause, which is general consensus on Green, despite his obvious traits. Collins is proof of that.

 

Add in that he was thrust into the lineup prematurely, on a defense with no pass rush, and it's reasonable to have some patience. But that's too much to ask for, I suppose.

[21isSuperman]

33 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I'd be open to trying him at corner in training camp and the preseason just to see how he looks. It's honestly difficult to imagine him being worse than the Robinsons and Tolers of the world.

I wouldn't want him at corner.  I think he'd get absolutely dominated and abused.  I would prefer to put him as a more of an in-the-box type of safety because I personally don't trust his coverage skills at all.  With Green, I think the coaches need to get creative and figure out what spots to put him in so he can make plays and he can contribute to the defense.  Maybe even have him bulk up 15 lbs and give him some snaps at linebacker?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

Just now, 21isSuperman said:

I wouldn't want him at corner.  I think he'd get absolutely dominated and abused.  I would prefer to put him as a more of an in-the-box type of safety because I personally don't trust his coverage skills at all.  With Green, I think the coaches need to get creative and figure out what spots to put him in so he can make plays and he can contribute to the defense.  Maybe even have him bulk up 15 lbs and give him some snaps at linebacker?

 

You sure 15 pounds would be enough?

 

 

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

It's amazing how many people feel vindicated for wanting Landon Collins after he bounced back from a bad rookie season, but at the same time they're writing off TJ Green. It's a paradox that I can't solve. 

I don't like the hate either. Its not productive in the least. I've definitely taken a wait and see approach to Green but I'm not going to waste my energy being negative on the guy. I think one thing is that Collins had a clear track record at Alabama. He had to adjust to the speed and complexities of the game and bounced back in a super star way. Green really just has raw athleticism to really go on. I hope he bounces back as well. He has all the traits you would look for in a stud safety. Size to cover TEs...speed for days to cover ground and make plays. I am hopeful for the kid. He is very raw and a low risk high reward type of player. I want to give him every chance to succeed because I think if it clicks for him...he will go from being a liability to being a star....if it clicks.

[dgambill]

Crazy the hate on this board for a couple rookies. I mean these aren't first rd picks like Dorsett and Werner...these were 2nd and 4th rd picks....coincidentally if we hadn't moved back and got Green we wouldn't even have Antonio Morrison on the team....or Austin Blythe for that matter. So I guess its meant to be that they are forever tied by the draft decision to move down and next gen stats and the hatered of this board. Rookies all come along at their own rate....and some not at all. I think after this year we will have a better understanding of what we have in Green, LBs and our OL selections as they get a whole offseason in the weight room and in film study and practice field.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

And this is where I point out that PFF sometimes doesn't know what they're talking about. Collins wasn't good in coverage in college, he was used in a way that didn't require him to do a lot in coverage, especially man coverage, especially down the field. TJ Green was used all over the field. He also wasn't good in coverage, but we're talking about two different schemes with basically two different positions. 

 

Very true, his coverage skills weren't exactly lauded when he was coming out of Alabama. And the Giants actually moved Collins from FS to more of a SS role this year as well, and used him a lot more in the box as opposed to forcing him to cover so much downfield. They did a really good job recognizing his strengths and playing to them, as opposed to trying to do the square peg round hole thing. I'm really now sure he would've enjoyed that type of success playing in the Colts secondary.

[Superman]

21 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Very true, his coverage skills weren't exactly lauded when he was coming out of Alabama. And the Giants actually moved Collins from FS to more of a SS role this year as well, and used him a lot more in the box as opposed to forcing him to cover so much downfield. They did a really good job recognizing his strengths and playing to them, as opposed to trying to do the square peg round hole thing. I'm really now sure he would've enjoyed that type of success playing in the Colts secondary.

 

They used him similar to how we used Geathers, he was just healthy all season. They're similar players, IMO.

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

You sure 15 pounds would be enough?

 

 

Well, he certainly isn't short of confidence

 

He's listed at around 205-210 lbs right now.  I think getting him to the 225-230 range would be good enough.  I wouldn't do it with the intention of switching his position to linebacker, but it would give him some versatility to play linebacker if needed.

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

And then there's this:

 

 

Very nice play on the ball at the 15 second mark. He's not totally oblivious. 

No but consistency is key. And I question if he can do things like that consistently. I just think you can get a better guy with higher upside. Budda Baker for example.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

No but consistency is key. And I question if he can do things like that consistently. I just think you can get a better guy with higher upside. Budda Baker for example.

 

Obviously consistency is the key, and we all know he's not good at tracking the ball. I'm only saying that it's not a completely foreign concept to him, and with reps and coaching he can get better at it. We know he's raw and needs work, but let's not write him off entirely, which is the direction most people are headed at this point.

[Defjamz26]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Obviously consistency is the key, and we all know he's not good at tracking the ball. I'm only saying that it's not a completely foreign concept to him, and with reps and coaching he can get better at it. We know he's raw and needs work, but let's not write him off entirely, which is the direction most people are headed at this point.

I don't think it's writing him off as much as it is wanting something more certain and quicker. It might take him to the end of his rookie contract to develop but even then he might only turn out to be serviceable. Plus this coaching staff isn't really known for being great with player development. 

 

I think if better is available, you take it. It's not unprecedented.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

I don't think it's writing him off as much as it is wanting something more certain and quicker. It might take him to the end of his rookie contract to develop but even then he might only turn out to be serviceable. Plus this coaching staff isn't really known for being great with player development. 

 

I think if better is available, you take it. It's not unprecedented.

 

I'm not really talking about whether you should look to upgrade, I'm talking about whether or not it's reasonable to expect a raw rookie to get better as time goes on. 

[Defjamz26]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

I'm not really talking about whether you should look to upgrade, I'm talking about whether or not it's reasonable to expect a raw rookie to get better as time goes on. 

It's a slippery slope. I think in the midst of his various shortcomings from being raw is what his actual weaknesses are. There's some things like tackling and play recognition that he can theoretically get better at. But his ball skills and instincts probably won't get better as those are more natural traits. It's not a matter of if he can get better. It's by how much. What's his real ceiling?

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

It's a slippery slope. I think in the midst of his various shortcomings from being raw is what his actual weaknesses are. There's some things like tackling and play recognition that he can theoretically get better at. But his ball skills and instincts probably won't get better as those are more natural traits. It's not a matter of if he can get better. It's by how much. What's his real ceiling?

 

Subjectively, he shouldn't have been playing in Week 1. Objectively, he got better as the season went on. I'm pretty sure his ceiling is higher than what we've seen so far.

[Dustin]

wth I love ryan grigson now

[dgambill]

25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Subjectively, he shouldn't have been playing in Week 1. Objectively, he got better as the season went on. I'm pretty sure his ceiling is higher than what we've seen so far.

I think him playing this year only helps the kid progress faster. Had he not got on the field I think that would have only slowed his progress. Now he can apply real game action to what he is seeing on game film and on the practice field. I think the kid will get better. How much time will tell but he has tools we've never seen before on this team. We always complain our guys are too slow...to small....well this kid is a freak...its our job to develop him but your never going to get a Cam Chancellor if you don't draft a kid with Cam's physical attributes....so we took a chance...and now people are ragging on the kid. He was suppose to be a special teamer and he had to learn on the fly....it was rough but it was real game experience that will help him next year. Mentally things will slow down and he can focus on making more plays instead of just thinking so much. I'm excited. In a year or two if he doesn't develop...I'll write him off that's fine but at least we took a chance. Rd 2 is that round two go out and draft star potential imo. They have an issue or they are raw but they have first rd talent potential but some things make them fall....to me rd 2 is where the special players often show up. I'm fine taking a flyer on this kid....lets just get the first rd right and then we can continue to take shots on special athletes like him.

[SaturdayAllDay]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

And then there's this:

 

 

Very nice play on the ball at the 15 second mark. He's not totally oblivious. 

My big worry is that he progresses enough to show these types of plays just enough to keep him on the field. Nothing worse than a streaky Safety who stinks for 3 games and then makes one big play to make people forget the bad times.

That being said I am cautiously optimistic about Green progressing. 

[Defjamz26]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Subjectively, he shouldn't have been playing in Week 1. Objectively, he got better as the season went on. I'm pretty sure his ceiling is higher than what we've seen so far.

I wouldn't doubt that. Like I said before though, the ceiling is the question. A lot of the predictions about his potential were all initially based on measureables.  My fear is that he may be a better athlete than player. Anyone would be excited about a 6'3" FS that weighs 220 and runs a 4.44 40 on paper. But once you say "he basically has to learn how to do everything a FS is supposed to do" then things get discouraging. 

 

Now instead of a visible ceiling based on his strengths and weaknesses, you kind of have no idea where to start with him because it's basically a blank canvas.

[braveheartcolt]

Some people should look up the definition of 'rookie'. Although snap judgements on here are all the rage these days. Perhaps it's the impatience of youth.

[Surge89]

On 2/18/2017 at 11:10 AM, indyagent17 said:

It does bring out two things we already know; Green is a speed demon.Something you cannot coach and Morrison has great lateral movement showing he may become a very solid linebacker should he increase his coverage skills

 

Morrison doesn't have great lateral movement.

 

He was less athletic than DQ was.  He may be a bit faster than I originally anticipated but his play @ the NFL level reflects his college tape.  A downhill guy with very limited hips.  If we wanted a downhill guy why not take Perryman of 2 years ago?  Someone who can actually enforce.  Morrison is ok I guess but I don't see him making many other teams in the NFL.  For example the Steelers have a rookie backup in Tyler M from Temple.  That kid should have been drafted in the 4th (rather than 7th) in place of Morrison as I think Tyler could come here to Indy and probably start. 

[Surge89]

On 2/19/2017 at 7:09 PM, krunk said:

I beat the drum for Sean Davis for almost the entire off season last year. We even worked him out. I think Green can get better, but I thought Davis was the better pick.

 

I remember.  I too loved Davis and you were the catalyst for that one :).

 

Still annoys me that the Steelers took him... and Tyler... and Hargrave...

 

Ugh this past draft was awful for me lol.

[Surge89]

6 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Obviously consistency is the key, and we all know he's not good at tracking the ball. I'm only saying that it's not a completely foreign concept to him, and with reps and coaching he can get better at it. We know he's raw and needs work, but let's not write him off entirely, which is the direction most people are headed at this point.

 

Agreed on his ball tracking.  It's... a flickering hope right now.  But...

 

Imo of course.  As I don't know what assignments are given.  But to me Green has severe problems adjusting to defensive shifts.  I've seen a couple of plays that I will try to find tomorrow that illustrate this.  One that I can recall is Green should shift over depending on the defense to either a more central spot or cover over. And either he doesn't shift at all and we give up an intermediate pass or he does shift but late and then ends up being in a terrible spot to make a play on the ball.  Sometimes I think this is his scenario instead of the actual "ball tracking".  Which actually gives me a ton of hope because if he can improve this mental part of the game it might reflect a ton in his "ball tracking ability" as he will set himself up for success instead of failure.  Of course I still don't like that he has a tendency to completely bring his head down if he needs to break.  And his flip (when he does flip which isn't often) is usually very messy and costs him lots of ground.

 

As a DB... raw would be fitting for him even after this season. But raw is not bad.  Just needs work.

[CR91]

The public census for grading a draft class says to wait atleast three years and we're calling them busts after one