2017 O-line Construction

[AustexColt]

Two years from now.... I think the only mainstay will be Kelly.

 

 

[jet1968]

On 2/8/2017 at 1:00 PM, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I just saw today that McShay released his first round mock on ESPN Insider and has Dalvin Cook to the Colts in the first round. I'd embed the tweet that I saw that in, but it's a fellow Colts fan, so naturally it was laced with profanity in reaction to the pick.

My head would explode if the Colts drafted Cook. That draft pick would be much better used on say 11 different defensive positions.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, jet1968 said:

My head would explode if the Colts drafted Cook. That draft pick would be much better used on say 11 different defensive positions.

 

It wouldn't bother me as much as it seems to bother others here, but the situation would have to be right. For instance, if by the time the Colts pick, there are only 2nd round talent defensive players left, or Dalvin Cook, who's a clear cut 1st round talent, it wouldn't make sense to reach on the 2nd round defensive guy. But if a talent like Reuben Foster were to somehow fall to the Colts, taking Cook would be completely insane.

[Smonroe]

8 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

It wouldn't bother me as much as it seems to bother others here, but the situation would have to be right. For instance, if by the time the Colts pick, there are only 2nd round talent defensive players left, or Dalvin Cook, who's a clear cut 1st round talent, it wouldn't make sense to reach on the 2nd round defensive guy. But if a talent like Reuben Foster were to somehow fall to the Colts, taking Cook would be completely insane.

 

Obviously we have more needs on defense, but I'm with you.  It wouldn't bother me if we drafted Cook, depending on who's available.  And if we did take him at 1, I'd hope we'd go mainly D players the rest of the draft.

 

The other huge factor would be if we acquired FA's that could fill in holes on defense immediately. 

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, BR-549 said:

Dude I told you straight up I wasn't trying to start a fight.  I was asking a question.  Everyone around here is so edgy but thats cool.  I was honestly just trying to have conversation with you about Philbin, but I feel like you thought I was attacking your "view".  That is not the case nor was it my intention.  And no, I did not see the posts... I watched the games.

 

We went from 1438 yards in 15 to 1926 last year, yeah 2016 was better for sure and 4.7 Y/A isn't bad at all.  But i don't think it was spectacular when you look at it in context. 

 

It was Venturi (whom I respect) that made the comments about the line not being able to pick up stunts. I was simply repeating his thoughts and observations.  It was a season long issue and sacs are one thing, cumulative hits are another.  

 

Oh, and a lot of those yards came from Gore's effort and second and third effort... not because of great blocking.

 

Anyway, I got it now.  Thank You

 

Dude....

 

I've got bad news for you.    Or, good news,  depending on your perspective.

 

I wasn't trying to start a fight either.      I wasn't bothered or insulted by anything you did.    I thought you asked a respectful question and I thought I gave you a respectful answer.

 

Honestly,   I think you read angry ton of voice and attitude where there wasn't any.    Honestly,   I had no issue with anything and then I read your response and thought.....    "Wow,  that's a big mis-read...."

 

Seriously,  there was no problem at all from my end until you responded here.....

 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

2 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

It wouldn't bother me as much as it seems to bother others here, but the situation would have to be right. For instance, if by the time the Colts pick, there are only 2nd round talent defensive players left, or Dalvin Cook, who's a clear cut 1st round talent, it wouldn't make sense to reach on the 2nd round defensive guy. But if a talent like Reuben Foster were to somehow fall to the Colts, taking Cook would be completely insane.

I agree with this. But seriously. Who thinks all the 1st round defenders will be gone by #15

[Steamboat_Shaun]

15 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

I agree with this. But seriously. Who thinks all the 1st round defenders will be gone by #15

 

It would basically mean that 14 defensive players in a row got drafted in the first round, which would probably be unprecedented.

[BR-549]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Dude....

 

I've got bad news for you.    Or, good news,  depending on your perspective.

 

I wasn't trying to start a fight either.      I wasn't bothered or insulted by anything you did.    I thought you asked a respectful question and I thought I gave you a respectful answer.

 

Honestly,   I think you read angry ton of voice and attitude where there wasn't any.    Honestly,   I had no issue with anything and then I read your response and thought.....    "Wow,  that's a big mis-read...."

 

Seriously,  there was no problem at all from my end until you responded here.....

 

So now there is a problem?  Hope not because I don't want any problems.  I would rather not go that direction, I am here to make friends and have discussions.

 

I understand what you are saying.  It is easy to cast emotion into written words and perhaps I was guilty of that just as you are now.  And again the way you are coming off from the start of this reply is a bit condescending.

 

I simply wanted more information about your thoughts on Philbin because I have heard and read things that were in conflict and I wanted a different perspective- yours.... that simple.  But when you kept saying that "surely I saw" ... then I thought maybe I had upset you.  Then add the "hopefully that clears it up" seemed a little condescending too.  

 

I am sorry that I "misread" your attitude about the entire post.  I felt it was an honest question worthy of something like .... well I think he is a good coach because... and not elude to some sort of idea that I had missed something that was entirely obvious from your standpoint. 

 

Here is the deal... I don't care, really I don't.  I was just asking for the sake of conversation.  Please accept my apology and lets start over if you don't mind.  It really is important to me that you understand I am sincerely apologizing for anything that may have offended you.  There was no intention then or now to do that. 

Feel free to PM me to discuss further if you like.  I am on your team!

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, BR-549 said:

So now there is a problem?  Hope not because I don't want any problems.  I would rather not go that direction, I am here to make friends and have discussions.

 

I understand what you are saying.  It is easy to cast emotion into written words and perhaps I was guilty of that just as you are now.  And again the way you are coming off from the start of this reply is a bit condescending.

 

I simply wanted more information about your thoughts on Philbin because I have heard and read things that were in conflict and I wanted a different perspective- yours.... that simple.  But when you kept saying that "surely I saw" ... then I thought maybe I had upset you.  Then add the "hopefully that clears it up" seemed a little condescending too.  

 

I am sorry that I "misread" your attitude about the entire post.  I felt it was an honest question worthy of something like .... well I think he is a good coach because... and not elude to some sort of idea that I had missed something that was entirely obvious from your standpoint. 

 

Here is the deal... I don't care, really I don't.  I was just asking for the sake of conversation.  Please accept my apology and lets start over if you don't mind.  It really is important to me that you understand I am sincerely apologizing for anything that may have offended you.  There was no intention then or now to do that. 

Feel free to PM me to discuss further if you like.  I am on your team!

 

Apology gladly accepted.    Always.

 

My apologies to you for perhaps some poor wording on my part that gave you a false read.

 

And no,  there's not a problem....    more of a figure of speech reaction to your earlier post to me....

 

No worries......      we're good.      No problems at all....

 

Appreciate this post.....     this was good of you to do this....

 

 

[OLD FAN MAN]

On 2/8/2017 at 8:16 PM, Superman said:

 

No, you don't want a RB because you want a defensive player. I don't want a RB because I don't believe in drafting RBs in the first round.

 

It's completely irrelevant at this point, sorry to be confusing.

if the colts didnt draft running backs in the first we would never have had faulk or james

[Superman]

45 minutes ago, FACE REALITY said:

if the colts didnt draft running backs in the first we would never have had faulk or james

 

The Colts drafted Edgerrin James 18 years ago. They drafted Marshall Faulk 23 years ago. Perhaps you've missed it, but the game has changed a lot since then, especially when it comes to the way RBs are used and how long they last.

[LockeDown]

If Blythe is going to put some weight/muscle on, he needs to follow Good around.  Especially to his dinner table.  

 

I would keep keep the Oline shelf well stocked every year.  Ballard is always looking for linemen, so I think he will do that.  Our subs should be young up and coming talent, instead of older slower vets and guys that are not top tier material.

[Smonroe]

30 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The Colts drafted Edgerrin James 18 years ago. They drafted Marshall Faulk 23 years ago. Perhaps you've missed it, but the game has changed a lot since then, especially when it comes to the way RBs are used and how long they last.

 

Addai and Brown, but those were luxury picks for really good teams.  

 

That being said, if Zeke was there last year....

 

To be clear, I don't think there's a generational back in this draft, just that there are sometimes reasons to take a RB in the first.  

[ClaytonColt]

I can't really express how disappointed I'd be if we went after a 'stud' right guard (or running back) this offseason. It would show that the focus on improving he team is all wrong again. I watched half of our O-Line suffer through a learning/development rookie season and I'm not willing to just throw that away to go for an 'easy answer' in free agency when we should be balancing up the roster and allowing the guys we've signed on offence to get better.

 

I've posted it before on the draft part of this forum but it's worth emphasising again. 

 

We have just two spots on the offense that aren't occupied by a top 3 round draft pick (that actually only becomes 1 spot of we resign Thornton).

 

We have just two spots on the whole of he defense are occupied by top three round picks. We could have a situation next season when TY is our lowest drafted offensive player (spot 92) but we have only between 2 and 4 defensive players who were drafted before that. We need to address that balance. 

 

I don't see why people are focusing on the two weak spots of the offense when it's clear we should be focusing on the multiple weak spots on the defense. Signing a high end right guard to complete the line is a fantasy and luxury move when the other side of the ball is so lacking.

 

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

23 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

I can't really express how disappointed I'd be if we went after a 'stud' right guard (or running back) this offseason. It would show that the focus on improving he team is all wrong again. I watched half of our O-Line suffer through a learning/development rookie season and I'm not willing to just throw that away to go for an 'easy answer' in free agency when we should be balancing up the roster and allowing the guys we've signed on offence to get better.

 

I've posted it before on the draft part of this forum but it's worth emphasising again. 

 

We have just two spots on the offense that aren't occupied by a top 3 round draft pick (that actually only becomes 1 spot of we resign Thornton).

 

We have just two spots on the whole of he defense are occupied by top three round picks. We could have a situation next season when TY is our lowest drafted offensive player (spot 92) but we have only between 2 and 4 defensive players who were drafted before that. We need to address that balance. 

 

I don't see why people are focusing on the two weak spots of the offense when it's clear we should be focusing on the multiple weak spots on the defense. Signing a high end right guard to complete the line is a fantasy and luxury move when the other side of the ball is so lacking.

 

 

 

Great post, I totally agree. Might not be a popular view, but no big money or high draft on O-Line, thanks. Not happy about the thought of a RB in 1 round either.

[OLD FAN MAN]

12 hours ago, Superman said:

 

The Colts drafted Edgerrin James 18 years ago. They drafted Marshall Faulk 23 years ago. Perhaps you've missed it, but the game has changed a lot since then, especially when it comes to the way RBs are used and how long they last.

when a person is 73 like i am 18 years seem like a moment ago, however what worked once can work again. it just takes one winning team to win with a strong ground game and the sheep will try to follow, then the game style changes again. i believe in taking an elite talent in the first no matter the position. many firsts are busts, go for the elite talent

[Smonroe]

1 hour ago, FACE REALITY said:

when a person is 73 like i am 18 years seem like a moment ago, however what worked once can work again. it just takes one winning team to win with a strong ground game and the sheep will try to follow, then the game style changes again. i believe in taking an elite talent in the first no matter the position. many firsts are busts, go for the elite talent

 

Do you consider any of the RBs 'elite'?

 

Side note - any doubt that Morrall was on the take in SB3?

[braveheartcolt]

I just caught the tail end of Edge's career with the Colts, however, if there was someone close to his talent level, I would be more than happy if we spent a 1st rounder on them. This year or any year. 

[dw49]

2 hours ago, FACE REALITY said:

when a person is 73 like i am 18 years seem like a moment ago, however what worked once can work again. it just takes one winning team to win with a strong ground game and the sheep will try to follow, then the game style changes again. i believe in taking an elite talent in the first no matter the position. many firsts are busts, go for the elite talent

 

I thought I was old at 67. I'm just a snot nosed kid compared to you.

 

Yeah .. I hear you , seems like yesterday when we drafted James. Oh.. and I agree with you. RFB's still have value and there is nothing that has been proven (IMO anyway) , that taking one at pick 15 is a bad move. If your GM thinks the player that improves your team most in the 1st round is a RB , why would that be "impossible " to actually be the case. Anybody that thinks Dallas blundered last year is IMO very mistaken. 

[a06cc]

On 2/10/2017 at 3:02 PM, AustexColt said:

Two years from now.... I think the only mainstay will be Kelly.

 

 

The only two that I trust on the OLine is Mewhort and Kelly. AC sucks and no one can convince me otherwise. PFF proves it, he only produces when he has a healthy Jack next to him. 

[BR-549]

22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Apology gladly accepted.    Always.

 

My apologies to you for perhaps some poor wording on my part that gave you a false read.

 

And no,  there's not a problem....    more of a figure of speech reaction to your earlier post to me....

 

No worries......      we're good.      No problems at all....

 

Appreciate this post.....     this was good of you to do this....

 

 

I appreciate this post as well.  Name is Scott so you know.  Though wrestling was my sport I love football and discussing the Colts in particular.  I guess we now know how to read each other and this shouldn't happen again.  Makes me feel better that you sent this back to me... thank you.  

Oh and so you know, I like Philbin too.  I think he was a good add to the staff.

[NewColtsFan]

25 minutes ago, BR-549 said:

I appreciate this post as well.  Name is Scott so you know.  Though wrestling was my sport I love football and discussing the Colts in particular.  I guess we now know how to read each other and this shouldn't happen again.  Makes me feel better that you sent this back to me... thank you.  

Oh and so you know, I like Philbin too.  I think he was a good add to the staff.

 

Scott.....    

 

Gotta love a man with a wrestling background.     Toughest guys on the planet.     By the way, and you may even know this,  our NT, David Parry was a wrestler too in HS in Iowa.      Those guys know how to wrestle!

As you may have figured out by now,  I'm a bit of an odd duck.    As much as I love football, baseball and basketball,   I also love the off-season for those sports too.     I love trying to think like a GM.    I love the process of trying to build a team.      For some weird reason,  I find it fascinating.    I know not everyone does....    

 

I predicted the Colts would do better this year,  not because of our roster,  but because of the new coaching additions we made.     Chudzinksi for a full year,  Philbin, and Schottenheimer.      I thought they'd be the difference.     The fact that we went 8-8 again with these new coaches is a sign of how poor our roster is.

 

So, I think Ballard has his work cut out for him....    (I'd love to be the fly on the wall in his office!)   

 

Thanks again for this exchange....             

 

Mchael

NCF

 

[OLD FAN MAN]

6 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

I thought I was old at 67. I'm just a snot nosed kid compared to you.

 

Yeah .. I hear you , seems like yesterday when we drafted James. Oh.. and I agree with you. RFB's still have value and there is nothing that has been proven (IMO anyway) , that taking one at pick 15 is a bad move. If your GM thinks the player that improves your team most in the 1st round is a RB , why would that be "impossible " to actually be the case. Anybody that thinks Dallas blundered last year is IMO very mistaken. 

i concur

 

21 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

Addai and Brown, but those were luxury picks for really good teams.  

 

That being said, if Zeke was there last year....

 

To be clear, I don't think there's a generational back in this draft, just that there are sometimes reasons to take a RB in the first.  

i concur

 

[OLD FAN MAN]

8 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

Do you consider any of the RBs 'elite'?

 

Side note - any doubt that Morrall was on the take in SB3?

i really  dont know how much talent any of them have

[indyagent17]

On 2/10/2017 at 0:49 AM, COLTS449 said:

 

They're saying Mewhort should be gotten rid of or wanting us to bring somebody into, well basically replace him. Facts are facts. Mewhort is a building block. He's a very good Guard. Anyone saying or implying he should be a backup, traded, or released is "trippin" some way or another man. Its like they don't get the obvious. Which is. No. We need to keep Mewhort. We just need a beast RG.

 

And btw. LMAO. I think you're just targeting me because of our back and forth earlier over DQ. I would say you probably agree with me on Mewhort.

You better read before you comment. I didn't say he should be gone I said someone to come in and compete with him. 

[indyagent17]

On 2/9/2017 at 10:33 PM, COLTS449 said:

 

Man. You and indyagent17 must be on some cid or something. Or Smoking crack. I'm not sure but its definitely something. My guess would be one of those 2 cause both of you guys are trippin LOL.

 What a friendly forum, accusing people of smoking crack for having a different opinion you do? You need to find a better way to express yourself without being crude

[COLTS449]

1 minute ago, indyagent17 said:

 What a friendly forum, accusing people of smoking crack for having a different opinion you do? You need to find a better way to express yourself without being crude

 

No offense bro. I'm just me. If I think something is dumb I'm gonna say it LOL. I respect your opinions, and everyone else's, but I happen to think bringing in somebody to challenge Mewhort is insane. I mean we need a RG at least. Unless Haeg breaks out. But if we brought in a TJ LAng he would start at G along with Mewhort. Then wouldn't Haeg, Good, Reitz, Harrison, or maybe a mid round rookie be behind Mewhort? I didn't say challenge him as nobody's going to beat him out.

[jbaron04]

I dont care what the depth chart say constanzo is a RT we need to find a way to reduce his salary but looking at hi contract we stuck...........

Ideal what I would like to see happen 

2017                         2018

LT - CONSTANZO       LT - CLARK 

LG - MEWHORT       LG - MEWHORT

C - KELLY.                   C - KELLY

RG - decastro/zeitler 

RT - CLARK                 RT - CONSTANZO 

 

[BR-549]

On 2/11/2017 at 3:30 AM, ClaytonColt said:

I can't really express how disappointed I'd be if we went after a 'stud' right guard (or running back) this offseason. It would show that the focus on improving he team is all wrong again. I watched half of our O-Line suffer through a learning/development rookie season and I'm not willing to just throw that away to go for an 'easy answer' in free agency when we should be balancing up the roster and allowing the guys we've signed on offence to get better.

 

I've posted it before on the draft part of this forum but it's worth emphasising again. 

 

We have just two spots on the offense that aren't occupied by a top 3 round draft pick (that actually only becomes 1 spot of we resign Thornton).

 

We have just two spots on the whole of he defense are occupied by top three round picks. We could have a situation next season when TY is our lowest drafted offensive player (spot 92) but we have only between 2 and 4 defensive players who were drafted before that. We need to address that balance. 

 

I don't see why people are focusing on the two weak spots of the offense when it's clear we should be focusing on the multiple weak spots on the defense. Signing a high end right guard to complete the line is a fantasy and luxury move when the other side of the ball is so lacking.

 

 

I too think this is a good post, however one thing I would like to say that might make sense is...

 

I don't care to see Andrew hit and sacked as often as he is.  Regardless of who we have on Defense it doesn't matter if we can't score on offense just as we have seen with our backup QB's.

 

In many ways the offensive line is the core of the team and if we can't get it fixed it is surely going to shorten Andrew's career.

 

So without making this a real long post (perhaps it is already, lol), for me I am okay if we decide we need to add a guard/ tackle or even a running back that is not only a good runner but skilled at picking up blitzing defenders.  And I mean in the first round.  

 

We have to protect AL.  I hope, like you said,  that watching the growing pains of the O-line last year pays off this year, but addressing its weakest link isn't a bad thing either.

 

Just my thoughts, otherwise I think what you said makes a lot of sense too.

Edited February 12, 2017 by BR-549
too much poor grammar

[BR-549]

1 hour ago, jbaron04 said:

I dont care what the depth chart say constanzo is a RT we need to find a way to reduce his salary but looking at hi contract we stuck...........

Ideal what I would like to see happen 

2017                         2018

LT - CONSTANZO       LT - CLARK 

LG - MEWHORT       LG - MEWHORT

C - KELLY.                   C - KELLY

RG - decastro/zeitler 

RT - CLARK                 RT - CONSTANZO 

 

There is a substantial difference in trying to find a mediocre LT vs a good RT and I am ok with AC staying where he is.  It is what he knows and it is who JM is used to playing next too.  

Having said that AC is no Tarek Glenn... not even close.

[ClaytonColt]

2 hours ago, BR-549 said:

I too think this is a good post, however one thing I would like to say that might make sense is...

 

I don't care to see Andrew hit and sacked as often as he is.  Regardless of who we have on Defense it doesn't matter if we can't score on offense just as we have seen with our backup QB's.

 

In many ways the offensive line is the core of the team and if we can't get it fixed it is surely going to shorten Andrew's career.

 

So without making this a real long post (perhaps it is already, lol), for me I am okay if we decide we need to add a guard/ tackle or even a running back that is not only a good runner but skilled at picking up blitzing defenders.  And I mean in the first round.  

 

We have to protect AL.  I hope, like you said,  that watching the growing pains of the O-line last year pays off this year, but addressing its weakest link isn't a bad thing either.

 

Just my thoughts, otherwise I think what you said makes a lot of sense too.

I don't think anybody wants to see Luck take a beating but we do also have to remember that all quarterbacks do get hit every now and again and there are creative ways to minimize the amount of punishment. 

 

The other top quarterbacks in this legume don't necessarily stay upright because they have 5 stud pro-bowlers stood in front of them. Play calling, coaching and pre-snap adjustments should be able to make it work without needing more resources thrown at our already well invested offensive line.

[BR-549]

2 minutes ago, ClaytonColt said:

I don't think anybody wants to see Luck take a beating but we do also have to remember that all quarterbacks do get hit every now and again and their are creative ways to minimize the amount of punishment. 

 

The other top quarterbacks in this legume don't necessarily stay upright because they have 5 stud pro-bowlers stood in front of them. Play calling, coaching and pre-snap adjustments should be able to make it work without needing more resources thrown at our already well invested offensive line.

I completely agree.

 

I think if you take a long hard look at it thought he (AL) has had far more than his fair share.  Regardless of what we have invested, we must make a noticeable improvement this year.

 

Kind of like buying a brand new car.... you have it for two months and then you realize you really needed a truck.  If you want the truck you have to eat/ absorb the loss on the car.... no one really cares that you paid full price for the car, it is worth what it is worth.  I am comparing this to the heavy investment we have in the line (sickening).  So that may end up being something we have to absorb.

 

I am only trying to justify a scenario of  drafting or signing another lineman.  I hope we don't because of other "glaring defensive needs" that we have and I am a defensive person- i love a great defense, something that is rare in Indy.  Plus, I am tired of seeing linemen on the board and being a need.  I didn't want to see us draft Kelly last year in round one, but I know and understand why we did.

 

Good discussion

[Superman]

On 2/10/2017 at 8:25 PM, Smonroe said:

 

Addai and Brown, but those were luxury picks for really good teams.  

 

That being said, if Zeke was there last year....

 

To be clear, I don't think there's a generational back in this draft, just that there are sometimes reasons to take a RB in the first.  

 

Here's my question: How much better does a generational back make your team? How many wins does he add? How much better do you play in the playoffs, especially in comparison with the 2nd tier backs whose teams always seem to do well?

 

The Falcons have a 3rd and 4th rounder, that they should have relied on more in the SB; Pats have a UDFA starter, a 5th rounder that I have loved since his Senior Bowl performance, and another UDFA gadget guy who set a record in the AFCCG. The Packers wound up with no backs by the end of the season, and they were the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs. They beat the team that drafted Zeke in the first round.

 

And since we're talking about a first rounder -- where you hope to have a player who can start for your team for the better part of two contracts, 8-10 years -- how long will any RB last in today's NFL? How long will he play above replacement level? How long will he play at starter level? When will he slow down? How many games will he miss? Will he even be worth a second contract? 

 

You mentioned Addai and Brown. I can somewhat see drafting a back toward the end of the first round, where they were, if you really think they're among the best players on the board. I'd still trade down, and I honestly don't think either Addai or Brown wound up being worth their draft status. I absolutely would not take a back at #14 or #15, even if it's Zeke. I'm fundamentally against it.

 

I think the odds are strongly against any RB, even a great one, lasting 8-10 years at a high level. I think really good teams aren't reliant on the ability of one RB, they use multiple backs in situational roles, and that reduces the value of any one player at the position. And I don't think even great RBs are typically the difference between a good team and a great team. 

[Superman]

On 2/11/2017 at 8:13 AM, FACE REALITY said:

when a person is 73 like i am 18 years seem like a moment ago, however what worked once can work again. it just takes one winning team to win with a strong ground game and the sheep will try to follow, then the game style changes again. i believe in taking an elite talent in the first no matter the position. many firsts are busts, go for the elite talent

 

You don't need a great RB to have a strong ground game. The style of play in the NFL isn't the reason individual RBs are devalued. 

[Smonroe]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Here's my question: How much better does a generational back make your team? How many wins does he add? How much better do you play in the playoffs, especially in comparison with the 2nd tier backs whose teams always seem to do well?

 

The Falcons have a 3rd and 4th rounder, that they should have relied on more in the SB; Pats have a UDFA starter, a 5th rounder that I have loved since his Senior Bowl performance, and another UDFA gadget guy who set a record in the AFCCG. The Packers wound up with no backs by the end of the season, and they were the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs. They beat the team that drafted Zeke in the first round.

 

And since we're talking about a first rounder -- where you hope to have a player who can start for your team for the better part of two contracts, 8-10 years -- how long will any RB last in today's NFL? How long will he play above replacement level? How long will he play at starter level? When will he slow down? How many games will he miss? Will he even be worth a second contract? 

 

You mentioned Addai and Brown. I can somewhat see drafting a back toward the end of the first round, where they were, if you really think they're among the best players on the board. I'd still trade down, and I honestly don't think either Addai or Brown wound up being worth their draft status. I absolutely would not take a back at #14 or #15, even if it's Zeke. I'm fundamentally against it.

 

I think the odds are strongly against any RB, even a great one, lasting 8-10 years at a high level. I think really good teams aren't reliant on the ability of one RB, they use multiple backs in situational roles, and that reduces the value of any one player at the position. And I don't think even great RBs are typically the difference between a good team and a great team. 

 

So, you're saying you Might take a running back in the first?  JK, I get your point.

 

But besides QB, which position would add wins?  JJ Watt led the Texans to 2 wins one year.  And, besides QB, what's the average career of any player?

 

Even if we did take a great RB, he'd be a complimentary player, not the focus of the offense.  I'm not making a case for Cook, I really don't know a lot about him.  I knew Zeke was going to excel.  

[OLD FAN MAN]

nfl  gms continue to take rbs  in the first. if they would read the colts forum they would learn that they should never take a rb in the first, what are those gms thinking

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

So, you're saying you Might take a running back in the first?  JK, I get your point.

 

But besides QB, which position would add wins?  JJ Watt led the Texans to 2 wins one year.  And, besides QB, what's the average career of any player?

 

Even if we did take a great RB, he'd be a complimentary player, not the focus of the offense.  I'm not making a case for Cook, I really don't know a lot about him.  I knew Zeke was going to excel.  

 

This is when you start talking in Moneyball terms, thinking about wins above replacement and law of diminishing returns and things like that. I can't absolutely quantify it, but the point is that if you have a good team and a good QB, the difference between a great RB and a decent RB isn't going to translate into a lot of wins. A great pass rusher over a decent pass rusher? Now your actually building something, especially since only one RB can carry the ball at a time, while two pass rushers can impact the same play.

 

You also have to look at career longevity. I won't spend a lot of time trying to support this, but I think we'd all agree that the average career of a good RB is lower than the average career of a good player at almost every other position. And the average number of peak seasons is probably lower as well. I don't think it's a radical concept to say that RBs don't last as long as players at other positions.

 

I had no doubt Zeke would be special. The Cowboys love having him, and will probably love having him for the next 3-4 years. After that? I think he'll decline dramatically, and they'll move on pretty quickly. Best case, he's Adrian Peterson or Marshawn Lynch, two players who didn't really play on winning teams unless they had good QBing (2012 was an exception for Peterson, kind of proving the rule). How long will Ronnie Stanley and Jack Conklin last? What about DeForest Buckner or Sheldon Rankins? If they all ball out for the remainder of their rookie contracts, who will be the lowest paid on their next deal? 

 

It's not that individual RB performance isn't good for a team, it's not that they aren't great players -- they're probably the most athletic players on the team, in most cases. It's that they get punished and don't last, and because they take so much punishment, teams have spread out the risk over multiple players, and get similar production from a platoon as they would from one feature back. It's like having two catchers in baseball -- it's a super important position, but teams more and more use multiple catchers because the position is tough physically, and because they get more out of deploying a platoon situationally.

 

I'm not a RB hater, I just think first round picks should have greater potential to yield a long term starter. And at this point this is way TL;DR, so I'll leave it at that. /rant 

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, FACE REALITY said:

nfl  gms continue to take rbs  in the first. if they would read the colts forum they would learn that they should never take a rb in the first, what are those gms thinking

 

Not really; fewer RBs in the first round over the last 6-7 years.

 

But even if what you said was true, NFL GMs also continue to get fired. Like the Colts last GM, whose biggest mistake was probably trading a first rounder for a RB.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

[Tmoney]

If Joe Haeg is hitting them weights all day every day. And leraven Clark is spending 5-7 days a week with Joe Philbin studding tape, also working on his foot work, we have the answers on roster. These two young guys need to be hard workers, because they each have few flaws but the flaws stands out. Joe Philbin might be the best o-line coach in football, if he ultimately thinks these two deserve a shot, give them a full season to mess. Also give Robert Turbin more playing time!! 5th best pass blocking back according to PFF, who I don't always listen too, but top 5 means he's pretty dam good at it. And run the damn football why dont you CHUD?? Before we let you walk too!!

[OLD FAN MAN]

8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Not really; fewer RBs in the first round over the last 6-7 years.

 

But even if what you said was true, NFL GMs also continue to get fired. Like the Colts last GM, whose biggest mistake was probably trading a first rounder for a RB.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

elliot ,with dallas, gurley with the rams and gordon with sd are going to get their gms fired, those gms should have read the colts forum