O-line Improvements Now Noticeable

[WarGhost21]

Luck was hit 13 times against the Texans on Sunday, yet was only sacked once. Of those 13 hits, over half came from Luck holding the ball for over 5 seconds, including the pick when Luck was hit by Clowney. The 13 hits look bad, but lets look back at what I just said: over half came from Luck holding the ball for OVER 5 SECONDS!!!!! That's a whole lot of time in the pocket, and this doesn't include the times Luck held it that long without getting hit. The O-line is meshing. Backup center Jonathan Harrison laid the boom on more than one Texan defender. Haeg is starting to look like an above average chess piece. Castanzo has looked much better recently. On the play Mewhort was injured he had run across the field to lay down a key block for Gore's TD. Even Reitz played well, moving his feet with fluidity and only allowing a bit of pressure the entire game. Not sure what happened with Kelly but he's still looking very good in recent games. After allowing multiple sacks through the first 12 weeks of the season, the line has given up only 1 in two straight games. Cutting down on Luck holding the ball too long will drop these numbers even more, but so far, I'm impressed with the recent improvements. Continued meshing will take this line from horrible to passable or even good sooner rather than later.

[21isSuperman]

Castonzo has looked much better recently?  Not sure what you're talking about here.  Castonzo has looked bad all year and he was awful in yesterday's game.  It looks like someone has replaced his cleats with rollerskates.  Bad coaching from a guy who is a supposed OL specialist + bad technique by the players + bad playcalling that doesn't take advantage of quick hitters + a QB that likes to hold onto the ball = an offensive line that is among the highest for sacks given up and QB hits.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Why is nobody ever open?!? Our wideouts barely ever get ANY separation! Except ty obviously. 

[SilentHill]

So is it Luck holds onto the ball too long? Or is it the WR not getting separation, or is it the OC not designing quick throw plays?

[csmopar]

40 minutes ago, WarGhost21 said:

Luck was hit 13 times against the Texans on Sunday, yet was only sacked once. Of those 13 hits, over half came from Luck holding the ball for over 5 seconds, including the pick when Luck was hit by Clowney. The 13 hits look bad, but lets look back at what I just said: over half came from Luck holding the ball for OVER 5 SECONDS!!!!! That's a whole lot of time in the pocket, and this doesn't include the times Luck held it that long without getting hit. The O-line is meshing. Backup center Jonathan Harrison laid the boom on more than one Texan defender. Haeg is starting to look like an above average chess piece. Castanzo has looked much better recently. On the play Mewhort was injured he had run across the field to lay down a key block for Gore's TD. Even Reitz played well, moving his feet with fluidity and only allowing a bit of pressure the entire game. Not sure what happened with Kelly but he's still looking very good in recent games. After allowing multiple sacks through the first 12 weeks of the season, the line has given up only 1 in two straight games. Cutting down on Luck holding the ball too long will drop these numbers even more, but so far, I'm impressed with the recent improvements. Continued meshing will take this line from horrible to passable or even good sooner rather than later.

i stopped reading the moment you said Castanzo "looked much better".... sir, please put down the bong, you've had enough.

[21isSuperman]

5 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

So is it Luck holds onto the ball too long? Or is it the WR not getting separation, or is it the OC not designing quick throw plays?

All three.  When WRs aren't getting separation, the OC needs to call route combos to make them free.  Those better route combos, which would include quick hitters and short routes, will then make Luck get the ball out of his hands more quickly

[Coffeedrinker]

10 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Castonzo has looked much better recently?  Not sure what you're talking about here.  Castonzo has looked bad all year and he was awful in yesterday's game.  It looks like someone has replaced his cleats with rollerskates.  Bad coaching from a guy who is a supposed OL specialist + bad technique by the players + bad playcalling that doesn't take advantage of quick hitters + a QB that likes to hold onto the ball = an offensive line that is among the highest for sacks given up and QB hits.

 

4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

i stopped reading the moment you said Castanzo "looked much better".... sir, please put down the bong, you've had enough.

What are you guys seeing?  I have not had a chance to rewatch any games in quite a while but the times I focused on AC yesterday he was pretty much man handling Clowney.  He had the one holding call but pretty much I think AC has been the Colts best oline over the past few weeks (I did not see the Steelers game at all so my opinion is not based on anything in that game)

[Everyone]

10 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

So is it Luck holds onto the ball too long? Or is it the WR not getting separation, or is it the OC not designing quick throw plays?

yes

[pgt_rob]

Castonzo looked fine the past few games. He's not as bad as people say he is. It also doesn't help matters when Luck holds onto the ball for 5 seconds. If there's nobody open down field, he should throw it away.

[RollerColt]

Luck holds on to the ball too long because he doesn't trust the receiving group. He can't throw them open because they rarely get open.

 

The one time he tried to throw with trust, his target fell down and watched helplessly as the ball landed right into the defenders hands for an interception.

 

After all of the drops, mistakes and bad decisions, I wouldn't trust them either.

[Coffeedrinker]

11 minutes ago, 12to13 said:

Why is nobody ever open?!? Our wideouts barely ever get ANY separation! Except ty obviously. 

It's a combination of all three but the majority of the blame falls on Luck and then the OC.

The reason I say this is because, every since Luck came into the league he has been hit a lot.  The only constant in that time is,,, Luck.  He has had multiple receivers, numerous OCs and a bunch of different lineman and yet he still gets hit a lot.

 

Not saying the others don't play a role because they do (football is a team game afterall)  But when Luck had Wayne and TY and Allen and Fleener he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had TY and Moncrief and Allen and Fleener  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, we he had, TY, Dorsett, Moncrief, Allen, Doyle and Swoope  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had Arians as an OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had Pep as the OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long.  Now with Chud as OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long.  

 

A good OC would see his QB is doing that and make adjustments to minimize the times he has to do that.  WRs need to show they can catch the ball in traffic consistently so Luck doesn't think he has to wait until the WR is wide open before he throws it.  But for the most part Luck just needs to get better and throwing the WR open rather than waiting for him to be open.

[DarkHorse]

They're just not gelling as a team

[BCoop]

9 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

What are you guys seeing?  I have not had a chance to rewatch any games in quite a while but the times I focused on AC yesterday he was pretty much man handling Clowney.  He had the one holding call but pretty much I think AC has been the Colts best oline over the past few weeks (I did not see the Steelers game at all so my opinion is not based on anything in that game)

 

Castonzo has been fine. There is an extremely high standard set by some here for him that I don't quite understand. If you told me before the game that Castanzo had one holding penalty and no sacks given up against Clowney, I would take that 10 times out of 10.

 

He's not going to be perfect but he's been very solid for the past several weeks. He's not even in a top 10 problem for this team right now.

[Coffeedrinker]

1 minute ago, BCoop said:

 

Castonzo has been fine. There is an extremely high standard set by some here for him that I don't quite understand. If you told me before the game that Castanzo had one holding penalty and no sacks given up against Clowney, I would take that 10 times out of 10.

 

He's not going to be perfect but he's been very solid for the past several weeks. He's not even in a top 10 problem for this team right now.

I agree.  

 

And I meant the question "What are you guys seeing?" seriously not in exasperration because when it comes to olineman evaluations, I respect the opinion of 21isSuperman and csmopar.  So I am truly wondering what they are seeing that would make them form that opinion.

[MFT5]

9 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

It's a combination of all three but the majority of the blame falls on Luck and then the OC.

The reason I say this is because, every since Luck came into the league he has been hit a lot.  The only constant in that time is,,, Luck.  He has had multiple receivers, numerous OCs and a bunch of different lineman and yet he still gets hit a lot.

 

Not saying the others don't play a role because they do (football is a team game afterall)  But when Luck had Wayne and TY and Allen and Fleener he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had TY and Moncrief and Allen and Fleener  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, we he had, TY, Dorsett, Moncrief, Allen, Doyle and Swoope  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had Arians as an OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had Pep as the OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long.  Now with Chud as OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long.  

 

A good OC would see his QB is doing that and make adjustments to minimize the times he has to do that.  WRs need to show they can catch the ball in traffic consistently so Luck doesn't think he has to wait until the WR is wide open before he throws it.  But for the most part Luck just needs to get better and throwing the WR open rather than waiting for him to be open.

 

there's alotta fail and contradiction here

[csmopar]

17 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

What are you guys seeing?  I have not had a chance to rewatch any games in quite a while but the times I focused on AC yesterday he was pretty much man handling Clowney.  He had the one holding call but pretty much I think AC has been the Colts best oline over the past few weeks (I did not see the Steelers game at all so my opinion is not based on anything in that game)

dude, he's been getting pushed around all year. yesterday, he got flat man handled multiple times by defenders, including those not named Clowney.  Clowney was in the back field a TON.  Even AC yesterday after the game admitted to having a poor game when interviewed.

[Coffeedrinker]

1 minute ago, MFT5 said:

 

there's alotta fail and contradiction here

Really, how so?

[deedub75]

29 minutes ago, 12to13 said:

Why is nobody ever open?!? Our wideouts barely ever get ANY separation! Except ty obviously. 

 

We have speed demons who have to outrun defenders. We really don't have a physical receiver who can battle to get open and fight for the ball. 

[Coffeedrinker]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

dude, he's been getting pushed around all year. yesterday, he got flat man handled multiple times by defenders, including those not named Clowney.  Clowney was in the back field a TON.  Even AC yesterday after the game admitted to having a poor game when interviewed.

Players always say they had a bad game after a loss, so I don't care too much about that.  But I did not see him get manhandled at all yesterday.

[csmopar]

17 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Players always say they had a bad game after a loss, so I don't care too much about that.  But I did not see him get manhandled at all yesterday.

even the announcers commented on how badly he played.  

[Coffeedrinker]

31 minutes ago, csmopar said:

even the announcers commented on how badly he played.  

Ok.  Again, I don't see it.  The announcers also had a showed a play and said the WRs weren't getting open but in the play they showed the WRs (at least Dorsett) and a TE were open on that play.

[Jdubu]

1 hour ago, SilentHill said:

So is it Luck holds onto the ball too long? Or is it the WR not getting separation, or is it the OC not designing quick throw plays?

In my opinion, this is the OC at fault with a close second of faulting Luck. If I were a competent OC, I would remove all the 7 step drops from Lucks play calling list until we showed some ability to slow down a pass rush that reaches Luck often. I would have Luck and his receivers practice short slants and bubble screens over and over and over until I felt like they understood it well. I would have them practice timing plays so frequently, they would become nauseated from it. You can absolutely scheme receivers open providing they understand a route and I can't fathom these guys can't understand routes at this point in their careers.

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

What are you guys seeing?  I have not had a chance to rewatch any games in quite a while but the times I focused on AC yesterday he was pretty much man handling Clowney.  He had the one holding call but pretty much I think AC has been the Colts best oline over the past few weeks (I did not see the Steelers game at all so my opinion is not based on anything in that game)

He has been getting consistently beat all year.  His technique is awful.  He's bending at the waist and leaning

[Andrew Luck fan club]

1 hour ago, deedub75 said:

 

We have speed demons who have to outrun defenders. We really don't have a physical receiver who can battle to get open and fight for the ball. 

That's what crisp routes are for.

[lollygagger8]

2 hours ago, WarGhost21 said:

Luck was hit 13 times against the Texans on Sunday, yet was only sacked once. Of those 13 hits, over half came from Luck holding the ball for over 5 seconds, including the pick when Luck was hit by Clowney. The 13 hits look bad, but lets look back at what I just said: over half came from Luck holding the ball for OVER 5 SECONDS!!!!! That's a whole lot of time in the pocket, and this doesn't include the times Luck held it that long without getting hit. The O-line is meshing. Backup center Jonathan Harrison laid the boom on more than one Texan defender. Haeg is starting to look like an above average chess piece. Castanzo has looked much better recently. On the play Mewhort was injured he had run across the field to lay down a key block for Gore's TD. Even Reitz played well, moving his feet with fluidity and only allowing a bit of pressure the entire game. Not sure what happened with Kelly but he's still looking very good in recent games. After allowing multiple sacks through the first 12 weeks of the season, the line has given up only 1 in two straight games. Cutting down on Luck holding the ball too long will drop these numbers even more, but so far, I'm impressed with the recent improvements. Continued meshing will take this line from horrible to passable or even good sooner rather than later.

 

[PeterBowman]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

What are you guys seeing?  I have not had a chance to rewatch any gaes in quite a while but the times I focused onAC yesterday he was pretty much man handling Clowney.  He had the one holding call but pretty much I think AC has been the Colts best oline over the past few weeks (I did not see the Steelers game at all so my opinion is not based on anything in that game)

I will say this, over the last 5 games the Colts have given up 9 sacks.....That's an average of 1.8 per game which would average to about 28 sacks for the year. Compared to about the 30+ they gave up over the first 8 games, that's a marked improvement and would put them in the bottom third for sacks given up in a season.

[deedub75]

1 hour ago, 12to13 said:

That's what crisp routes are for.

 

Thats the thing. Their routes require them to outrun defenders but some defenders can run step for step with them. 

[MFT5]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Really, how so?

 

you spoke on how each level were culprits to the problem but saw the consistency en Andrew being the common denominator, failing to acknowledge how inept we've been at putting people en place to relay the message.

 

Yes Andrew has had the same problems but have you thought to realize that with each change to come, the foundation has been similar from one season to the next.

 

Every coordinator Lucks had are derivative of the same philosophy. Verbiage may differ but the premises are the same.

 

so while although luck problems are still prevalent they're only diluted due to coaching.

 

Where Andrew is unique is that he runs the system verbatim how he's coached and his attributes both positive and negative are a direct product of his coaching. 

[shakedownstreet]

3 hours ago, SilentHill said:

So is it Luck holds onto the ball too long? Or is it the WR not getting separation, or is it the OC not designing quick throw plays?

 

 

yes sir!

[Superman]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The only constant in that time is,,, Luck.  He has had multiple receivers, numerous OCs and a bunch of different lineman and yet he still gets hit a lot.

 

That's not true. The other constant is the Coryell offense.

 

The gameplans for Hasselbeck were entirely different last year. Even the Denver gameplan in 2015 was more of a Kubiak type of attack (coincidentally, playing a Kubiak team) than a Coryell/Chud attack. 

 

Luck is a great fit for the Coryell offense. The problem is we don't have the line to run it, and haven't since Luck has been here. They absolutely must ditch this offense.

[Superman]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Players always say they had a bad game after a loss, so I don't care too much about that.  But I did not see him get manhandled at all yesterday.

 

He got beat a couple times by Clowney, but it's being dramatically overblown on this forum.

[RollerColt]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

Luck is a great fit for the Coryell offense. The problem is we don't have the line to run it, and haven't since Luck has been here. They absolutely must ditch this offense.

I suppose that's why they keep doing it. Because they believe they are playing to Luck's strengths. They aren't looking at the whole picture. It's basically saying, "Hey you get paid millions for this, so it's all on you!" 

 

It's not like Andrew is in year 15. He's still very young and could really benefit from learning a different offense. Heck he's going to have all of January for starters...

[Superman]

Just now, RollerColt said:

I suppose that's why they keep doing it. Because they believe they are playing to Luck's strengths. They aren't looking at the whole picture. It's basically saying, "Hey you get paid millions for this, so it's all on you!" 

 

It's not like Andrew is in year 15. He's still very young and could really benefit from learning a different offense. Heck he's going to have all of January for starters...

 

Truthfully, this offense is always feast or famine, doesn't matter who the QB or OC is, or even how good the line is. Sometimes the QB looks like a Greek hero, other times he looks like a bum. I like the explosiveness it comes with, but when it's ugly, it's really ugly. 

[NewColtsFan]

22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He got beat a couple times by Clowney, but it's being dramatically overblown on this forum.

 

For whatever it's worth,  the one sack the team gave up yesterday was NOT on Castanzo.

 

It was on Dwayne Allen.       He had Clowney on the strip-sack and Clowney beat him badly.....

 

Castanzo has been solid for roughly about half the year and average the other half.

 

This is yet another hysterical post-loss, the sky is falling thread.      We get them after every loss.

 

 

[Colt Overseas]

Chud called a bad game yesterday. Leaving out putting Allen on Clowney for the strip sack and the screen pass on 4th and one, he should never have tried to continually force pass plays on Luck, especially when your up against one of the best pass defenses. And there were no quick routes, everything for a finish seemed like a 5/7 step drop back in the pocket, it became so obvious. Chud should have established the run game much earlier in game, to keep the Texans in check, that worked well in October against them.

 

We were absolutely brutal on offense yesterday, imagine what it could have been like if the Texans had Watt, Joseph, etc. 

[throwing BBZ]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

It's a combination of all three but the majority of the blame falls on Luck and then the OC.

The reason I say this is because, every since Luck came into the league he has been hit a lot.  The only constant in that time is,,, Luck.  He has had multiple receivers, numerous OCs and a bunch of different lineman and yet he still gets hit a lot.

 

Not saying the others don't play a role because they do (football is a team game afterall)  But when Luck had Wayne and TY and Allen and Fleener he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had TY and Moncrief and Allen and Fleener  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, we he had, TY, Dorsett, Moncrief, Allen, Doyle and Swoope  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had Arians as an OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long, when he had Pep as the OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long.  Now with Chud as OC  he got hit a lot and held the ball too long.  

 

A good OC would see his QB is doing that and make adjustments to minimize the times he has to do that.  WRs need to show they can catch the ball in traffic consistently so Luck doesn't think he has to wait until the WR is wide open before he throws it.  But for the most part Luck just needs to get better and throwing the WR open rather than waiting for him to be open.

 

 He was awful at leading his receivers and he didn`t throw a single ball low where they could go down and get

it and protect themselves. Lucky was an Oaf yesterday. He sure did look good a runnin' tho! bla bla

[Mameluc]

6 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Castonzo has looked much better recently?  Not sure what you're talking about here.  Castonzo has looked bad all year and he was awful in yesterday's game.  It looks like someone has replaced his cleats with rollerskates.  Bad coaching from a guy who is a supposed OL specialist + bad technique by the players + bad playcalling that doesn't take advantage of quick hitters + a QB that likes to hold onto the ball = an offensive line that is among the highest for sacks given up and QB hits.

I dont think he likes to hold to the ball. The scheme works like that IMO, he is supposed to hold untill routes develop. 

[masterlock]

6 hours ago, pgt_rob said:

Castonzo looked fine the past few games. He's not as bad as people say he is. It also doesn't help matters when Luck holds onto the ball for 5 seconds. If there's nobody open down field, he should throw it away.

The Colts have probably won a few games they wouldn't have otherwise won were it not for Luck's tendency to not give up on plays. It's a double-edged sword. 

[grmasterb]

6 hours ago, SilentHill said:

So is it Luck holds onto the ball too long? Or is it the WR not getting separation, or is it the OC not designing quick throw plays?

All of the above??

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Colt Overseas said:

Chud should have established the run game much earlier in game

 

Seven carries in the first half, one of which was Luck's 33 yarder...