What's more embarrassing; the team's play or fan's comments?

[FanFromtheWasteland]

And to answer the OP's question directly, the Colts play. I don't get paid thousands of dollars for my comments

[Nadine]

6 minutes ago, Ameche58 said:

I retired to Minneapolis 3 years ago and Pagano, Grigson and Irsay are turning me PURPLE.   Never thought that would happen after being a Colt fan for almost 60 years!!!!

Why Minneapolis? Aren't there more snow free options?

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

We started off successful because the team, when they had just got Andrew Luck, had lots of players and FA's that had decent experience and decent coaching, despite the fact they were old and we were beginning the rebuild. The players we did draft in Luck's first year were also relatively effective as that draft was mostly a hit. Not to mention Arians coached most of Luck's first year. As the years passed on, we drafted more and more rookies, missed on some picks, and all the new draftees were getting poorly by Pagano and the coordinators. They weren't growing, and if they did, their potential wasn't realized, including, most importantly, Andrew Luck.

 

We are a laughingstock, maybe not to the AFC South, but everyone else. The lame AFC South champs excuse doesn't hold water. We have been exposed. The AFC South is like me playing pokemon again, but playing in the 10 and under age division. Who cares if I beat a bunch of kids with little talent? The AFC South is the kiddie division. Except when we face the big boys (higher age divisions in my example), who we should be at least at an equal skill level with by now, we get destroyed. The criticism is warranted.

 

So it took three years for Pagano's stink to ruin the Colts, and in the meantime, they had more success each year. ???

 

I could see your point if, like the Caldwell years, the team started out good and gradually got worse. That didn't happen.

 

What definitely happened is they missed on picks and made some bad decisions. I agree that they missed an opportunity to build a great roster and put the AFC South firmly in their column for the next five plus years, and I agree that they are not a contender in the AFC as a whole because of these missed opportunities. So the criticism is absolutely warranted. I've never said it isn't.

 

But I think it's sensational to say that the Colts are a bottom dwelling, laughingstock of an organization because of a substandard couple of years. The fact that fans are lurching around so drastically after 8-8 (with backup QBs, by the way), and a 3-5 start is a testament to the fact that Colts fans are used to much more. Meanwhile, Titans fans are giddy with 4-4 right now, and they're coached by Mike Mularkey. 

[Devildog]

Fans are entitled to their personal opinions. Without the fans, there wouldn't be a team.  So, voicing my own personal opinion, the entire team sucks as a whole. Coaches, players, management, etc. 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

You said career football people have  no business being called inept by the layman and I simply argue that they do.

 

No I didn't.

[Ameche58]

It's beautiful here.  Used to vacation here.  

[Ameche58]

Just now, Ameche58 said:

 

 

[throwing BBZ]

3 hours ago, Bluefire4 said:

I don't think the team is embarassing. They are playing to their talent level. People acted like Luck was going to magically take us to the playoffs like most of the league didnt get better and we got worse.

 

 It really is this simple. TY
 We are rebuilding, with many holes that need to be filled After this season.
 And there are people that are responsible for this talent level.

[Ameche58]

2 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Why Minneapolis? Aren't there more snow free options?

It's beautiful up here.  Used to come up for vacations. 

[Yoshinator]

Just now, Superman said:

 

So it took three years for Pagano's stink to ruin the Colts, and in the meantime, they had more success each year. ???

 

I could see your point if, like the Caldwell years, the team started out good and gradually got worse. That didn't happen.

 

What definitely happened is they missed on picks and made some bad decisions. I agree that they missed an opportunity to build a great roster and put the AFC South firmly in their column for the next five plus years, and I agree that they are not a contender in the AFC as a whole because of these missed opportunities. So the criticism is absolutely warranted. I've never said it isn't.

 

But I think it's sensational to say that the Colts are a bottom dwelling, laughingstock of an organization because of a substandard couple of years. The fact that fans are lurching around so drastically after 8-8 (with backup QBs, by the way), and a 3-5 start is a testament to the fact that Colts fans are used to much more. Meanwhile, Titans fans are giddy with 4-4 right now, and they're coached by Mike Mularkey. 

It took 5 years to ruin the Colts, but Grigson is at as much fault as Pagano. Grigson made the team bad by missing on draft picks (mostly 1st round picks), Pagano screwed up by not coaching the good picks properly and helping them reach their full potential. It was a dual draining of the team by both of them. Titans should be happy with 4-4, they have a decent O-Line now and are starting to build a team. In reality, it's worse than us, but a lot closer to us than it should be. We aren't a laughingstock to the AFC South, in reality we could win the division still, but we are a laughingstock to anybody we face in the playoffs if we miraculously make it or any tough opponent this year that needs a win (Kansas City).

[Nadine]

3 minutes ago, Ameche58 said:

It's beautiful up here.  Used to come up for vacations. 

I was only ever up there once and agree, it's very pretty.  A lot of water.

But you got someone else to remove the snow?

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

I brought up Millen just to show that a person who has spent a career in football isn't necessarily good at what they do.  Millen isn't the comparison, but just an example.  Same for Ryan and Fisher.  I'm not trying to say the Colts are good or bad because of what Millen or Ryan did, but rather that Millen and Ryan are two guys who have had a career in football and were/are terrible at their jobs.  A career in football doesn't mean success in football.  If it did, most coaches would never get fired since so many of them coach for so many years. 

 

So what? I never said that Grigson and Pagano shouldn't be criticized simply because they are career football people. Hope you understand that's not my position.

 

I do think that "inept" is a stretch. "Not good enough" is more accurate. 

 

Inept typically is used to describe someone who has no skill at their task. Pagano and Grigson both have their warts, but they also have shown themselves to be better than "inept," IMO. 

 

You'll note that there's a far cry between Matt Millen's ineptitude and Ryan Grigson's inadequacy. It's really not arguable. Doesn't mean Grigson should keep his job.

 

Same for the difference between, say, Dennis Allen's ineptitude, and Chuck Pagano's inadequacy. 

[Superman]

@21isSuperman

 

Maybe because I brought up "career football people," you think I'm saying they're above criticism. I feel like I should get a little credit for time served. You know that I'm plenty critical of lots of "career football people." 

 

My point, maybe clumsily made, is that I think the people running this team, despite their mistakes, should not be judged by the standard of uninformed fans on the Internet. Note the word uninformed. Fans who think Pagano is "inept" because he played it safe in the second quarter against the Titans were basically proved wrong this week when Luck threw the pick.

 

That's just a for instance. But my point is that a regular fan disagreeing with a decision doesn't equate to ineptitude. If we judged fans on their Arm Chair QB decision making, I think we'd really understand ineptitude, relatively speaking. 

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

We all have the right to say what we think about these guys. It's our hard earned money that buys the tickets, merchandise, etc that makes these guys richer than most of us can even dream about. I'd get fired if I lay down on my company or don't perform at my expectation level. These guys are a train wreck right now and it won't end for a few years.

[Happy2BeHere]

I think I finally finally have moved to the get rid of Grigson and Pagano side. However I would retain Grigson in some capacity in writing players contracts as he does seem to have a good knack for managing the cap.

 

but what's most embarrassing is going to work in your undies.

[Happy2BeHere]

Hey it's a superman vs superman fight!! I've got $$ on superman winning 

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

@21isSuperman

 

Maybe because I brought up "career football people," you think I'm saying they're above criticism. I feel like I should get a little credit for time served. You know that I'm plenty critical of lots of "career football people." 

 

My point, maybe clumsily made, is that I think the people running this team, despite their mistakes, should not be judged by the standard of uninformed fans on the Internet. Note the word uninformed. Fans who think Pagano is "inept" because he played it safe in the second quarter against the Titans were basically proved wrong this week when Luck threw the pick.

 

That's just a for instance. But my point is that a regular fan disagreeing with a decision doesn't equate to ineptitude. If we judged fans on their Arm Chair QB decision making, I think we'd really understand ineptitude, relatively speaking. 

Fair enough.  And I don't agree with some of the criticism.  For example, people harping on Grigson for blaming Luck's contract for a good defense is unjust.  That quote was taken out of context.  I forget which game it was (I think San Diego?), but there was an instance where we were facing something like 2nd or 3rd and 30+ and people were criticizing Pagano for being conservative.  I don't agree with things like that.  But I don't equate fans disagreeing with a decision to ineptitude.  Many bad decisions made over and over again equate to ineptitude.

[southwest1]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm glad you like me, but you're dead wrong. Sorry you can't piece the context together, but Grigson's comment was clearly that they have to nail the draft moving forward, not that Luck's contract has in any way hurt the team. 

Why did Grigson feel compelled to address Luck's new contract at all when fans have expressed concerns over the punishment Luck is taking week after week then? Generally, when a team is winning games, sacks & plays where the QB is forced to scrabble for dear life seldom ever get mentioned publicly. 

 

I will state openly that Ryan doesn't bear all the burden of responsibility here. Joe Philbin deserves some, Chuck deserves some, & our GM deserves some because they are all paid to keep Luck healthy & upright. 

 

It's not a question of financial numbers, but why Grigs felt the need to even mention it our QB's contract at all. Collateral damage cover to save his job & buy him more time. 

[dgambill]

This isn't even close. The Colts staff and players play is more embarrassing. I don't want to pile on but they are suppose to be PROFESSIONALS....fans as we all know very in knowledge, decorum, and degree of support. I expect dumb comments and some crazy trade proposals and tirades from fans...but the lack of execution and improvement from this team as the year has moved along...I expect more...and I believe we will get more down th line from some of these guys but we have some players that I think couldn't get a job on any other NFL team...and some guys that are well past their expiration date. Play the young guys and let them learn and do whatever you have to do to limit Lucks hits...even if that means running the ball 30 times a game.

[Defjamz26]

A better question is why do the people making honest criticisms keep being singled out and criticized for being sports fans?

 

Imagine complaining about a team being bad and then being told to stop being negative.

[dudeski]

2 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

A better question is why do the people making honest criticisms keep being singled out and criticized for being sports fans?

 

Imagine complaining about a team being bad and then being told to stop being negative.

You know where you are right?

[Defjamz26]

Just now, dudeski said:

You know where you are right?

Yes. A forum where people can't handle their team being bad.

[IinD]

I'd say their performance is much more embarrassing then any of our or my comments.

 

I flew in and paid a couple thousand $$'s for a game this year. Their performance was embarrassing, so as far as I'm concerned I got zero return on my investment so sorry Colts, you suck. Flat out.

 

Plus my two games last year they lost so...yeah, they suck.

[southwest1]

2 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

We are a laughingstock, maybe not to the AFC South, but everyone else. The lame AFC South champs excuse doesn't hold water. We have been exposed. The AFC South is like me playing pokemon again, but playing in the 10 and under age division. Who cares if I beat a bunch of kids with little talent? The AFC South is the kiddie division. Except when we face the big boys (higher age divisions in my example), who we should be at least at an equal skill level with by now, we get destroyed. The criticism is warranted.

I do agree with those 2 fundamental points from your post Jared. While I won't say our division is child's play since INDY doesn't get to select who it's division foes are, I will agree with you that our club has been known to struggle when we play teams outside our comfort zone namely NE or Pittsburgh, which speaks to lackluster coaching & a failure to adapt quarter to quarter. Surprisingly, we usually play Cincinnati & Denver well in most cases. 

 

Look, I know it seems like I am piling on today & I will admit that you never make a change at the HC or GM spot without a vast upgrade at both positions. All I'm saying is this: I've seen all I need to see from Chuck & Ryan & if you're asking me to stay the course or play the field next yr; it's time to see what else is out there & available. Keep Philbin at OL & explore other options in 2017. 

 

I'm tired of getting humiliated on the field. Coaches & GMs are paid for results not a warm & fuzzy feeling. Jared is right to highlight that the Colts don't exactly dominate outside our division & I can't lie to myself anymore. 

[GoColtsWin]

6 hours ago, zibby43 said:

Tony Dungy just publicly called this team disappointing.  The most soft-spoken man on earth.

You know things are bleak when coach is forced to come to the same conclusion as many. What makes it even more frustrating is eating crow about Heath Evans preseason prediction on our Colts as being rediculous. 6 wins may not even be attainable with this roster/coaching. Hard times come around for everyone eventually. Even the Pats will suck again for a while at some point. 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Happy2BeHere said:

I think I finally finally have moved to the get rid of Grigson and Pagano side. However I would retain Grigson in some capacity in writing players contracts as he does seem to have a good knack for managing the cap.

 

but what's most embarrassing is going to work in your undies.

 

Mike Bleum is the cap guru and deserves a lot of credit. But I think he predates Grigson, and there's been a significant change in contract structure since 2012, so I think his current strategy is under the direction of Grigson. Those two work well together on contract structure, for the most part. They messed up the Cherilus contract, but everything else is pretty good. It's a shame they've had to bail on so many of those contracts, though. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

Why did Grigson feel compelled to address Luck's new contract at all when fans have expressed concerns over the punishment Luck is taking week after week then? Generally, when a team is winning games, sacks & plays where the QB is forced to scrabble for dear life seldom ever get mentioned publicly. 

 

I will state openly that Ryan doesn't bear all the burden of responsibility here. Joe Philbin deserves some, Chuck deserves some, & our GM deserves some because they are all paid to keep Luck healthy & upright. 

 

It's not a question of financial numbers, but why Grigs felt the need to even mention it our QB's contract at all. Collateral damage cover to save his job & buy him more time. 

 

Nope. I would suggest that you listen to the interview again, but I don't think it would matter. Bottom line, Grigson didn't throw Luck under the bus, and there was nothing wrong with what he said. Worst you can say about his comment is that it wasn't media savvy. That's it.

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

people harping on Grigson for blaming Luck's contract for a good defense is unjust.  That quote was taken out of context. 

Even if fans are making an unfounded link between Luck's contract & a less than ferocious defense or pass rush,  Grigs also mentioned in an interview his reaction to what Frank Gore meant when he said "I didn't sign up or come here for this." 

 

Ryan can talk all he wants about Frank's competitive juices, hating to lose games, or the need to build on previous draft successes...What would he be saying if we didn't have Luck to give our team a fighting chance to win games late? How long of a growing pains curve does 1 GM get? Davis was a solid acquisition, Kelly was a great pick up, Moncrief outstanding, but if Luck still withstands the most hits in the NFL at QB, what yr does the owner say I need to find a tandem that can prevent my QB from relentless punishment & attrition? 

 

It reminds me of when Mike Tomlin brought in OC Todd Haley with 1 primary mission in Pittsburgh: Keep Big Ben on the field & reduce the frequency of his injuries so as to not compromise Steelers Championship aspirations. We need to find NFL experts who can duplicate that reality. Would John Elway tolerate squandering away HOF talent? Nope. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

Fair enough.  And I don't agree with some of the criticism.  For example, people harping on Grigson for blaming Luck's contract for a good defense is unjust.  That quote was taken out of context.  I forget which game it was (I think San Diego?), but there was an instance where we were facing something like 2nd or 3rd and 30+ and people were criticizing Pagano for being conservative.  I don't agree with things like that.  But I don't equate fans disagreeing with a decision to ineptitude.  Many bad decisions made over and over again equate to ineptitude.

 

I agree. 

 

To the bolded, my point is that fans aren't held accountable for all the bad decisions they say they would make, all the bad ideas they have, the bad draft picks and signings they would support, etc. The tendency is for fans to either say 'he didn't do what I think he should have, so he's an *,' or wait until after the outcome is obvious and criticize with the benefit of hindsight.

 

We've discussed before, I think Grigson has made plenty of mistakes. Irsay committed to him moving forward. Doesn't mean he has a blank check, but there was a decided strategy change going into 2016. I'm fine with the way the Colts addressed the roster in 2016, given the reality of the situation. So I don't think there's evidence of bad decisions over and over again from Grigson. Definitely not a great resume so far, but I'm okay to see what he does moving forward.

 

Pagano, each week, loses point from me. Again, I don't think all the criticism is fair, and I don't think it's risen to ineptitude, but what he doesn't do is maximize his team's talents -- and despite the roster not being great, this team does have some strong areas -- or minimize its weaknesses. I said after 2015 that Pagano didn't sufficiently prove that he was the right guy for the Colts moving forward, and I was all for moving on. He's not proving me wrong.

 

Last thing, just to repeat, given the fact that I think Irsay made a thoughtful decision -- whether it proves to be right or not -- to keep his decision makers, I'm fine with seeing how the Colts look through 2016. It's pointless, IMO, to wring hands every day, every week, over the fact that Irsay kept them. And even if he didn't make the right choice, complaining about his ownership is a step too far. We've seen several organizations flounder for decades, changing leadership every other year, and never building anything, while other teams build a stable foundation, maybe have some ups and downs, but generally have a better shot in any given year than the impatient organizations. Irsay is nothing if not loyal to his people, and it's mostly served him well. I think, regardless of the qualifications of Grigson and Pagano, that Irsay deserves better.

[southwest1]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Nope. I would suggest that you listen to the interview again, but I don't think it would matter. Bottom line, Grigson didn't throw Luck under the bus, and there was nothing wrong with what he said. Worst you can say about his comment is that it wasn't media savvy. That's it.

It's cool. We will obviously never see eye to eye here & that's okay. You believe Grigson was giving the old it takes time to build a quality roster on all fronts commentary. Whereas, I believe that if things were flowing smoothly there would be no need to even mention Luck's new deal, & the fact that he even brought it up means that it's designed to neutralize criticism, search for any easy scapegoat, & hope that we start winning to get off the hot seat as the front office figurehead. 

 

I do appreciate how Grigs cleaned up our dead space money issue after Polian was let go. Also, just by virtue of Luck progressing 1 step further every yr until than 2015 means that Ryan gets a slice of that playoff glory. However, most GMs are radio silent or not doing the sports DJ circuit unless the scrutiny is mounting. Okay sure, it's a good idea to ignore the noise & you can get away with that as long as you don't miss the post season. 

 

I don't hate Ryan. Well, maybe some of his press conferences. I am grateful for his contributions, but at the end of the day, if you can't protect the face of the franchise your value or necessity disappears quite rapidly. 

 

I wish Grigs no ill will personally. I just know that my patience is running thin that's all. 

[Happy2BeHere]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Mike Bleum is the cap guru and deserves a lot of credit. But I think he predates Grigson, and there's been a significant change in contract structure since 2012, so I think his current strategy is under the direction of Grigson. Those two work well together on contract structure, for the most part. They messed up the Cherilus contract, but everything else is pretty good. It's a shame they've had to bail on so many of those contracts, though. 

That's the truth indeed....

[Ratking]

11 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

We are ticked off at this team's horrible play this year by my God, can we stop with the personal assaults? (Pagano's an *, Grigson sucks, Irsay is on drugs and various assaults on players).

 

To say the Colts have "thrown Luck under the bus" and "quit on the team" coming from this fan base is a little hypocritical, judging by all the finger pointing and quitting going on this forum....

 

 

 

 

 

Dude do you have season tickets? Do you have any actual investment in the Colts? I assume not . . . . . Or you would understand that some people on this forum have a good reason to be upset that they paid a lot of money for a subpar product. 

[AZColt11]

This thread is like adding lighter fluid to an open flame!

[RockThatBlue]

10 hours ago, tweezy32 said:

The teams playing is more embarrassing.. Nothing wrong with the comments!

I agree. As long as the comments aren't personal attacks, the criticism is 100% warrented IMO.

[RockThatBlue]

7 hours ago, Nadine said:

I think most people don't blame the travel.  Just really horrified at the performance on an international stage......and getting up way early in the am to witness it to boot

That game definitely ruined breakfast lol

[IinD]

47 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

This thread is like adding lighter fluid to an open flame!

In all fairness, there'sn ot much else to talk about. Not directed towards you, but it's funny hearing people say 'enough of the negativity talk', but it isn't like we could talk about our great pass rushers or stone wall oline or coaching genius.

 

Obviously personal attacks are one thing, but the Indianapolis Colts NFL football team that has players and coaches making millions and have state of the art resources for everyone who's associated with the team to succeed looks like a losing inept franchise.

 

Our D can't stop anything and we're watching our qb get killed at times.

 

I'm absolutely calling out my team.

[AZColt11]

27 minutes ago, IinD said:

In all fairness, there'sn ot much else to talk about. Not directed towards you, but it's funny hearing people say 'enough of the negativity talk', but it isn't like we could talk about our great pass rushers or stone wall oline or coaching genius.

 

Obviously personal attacks are one thing, but the Indianapolis Colts NFL football team that has players and coaches making millions and have state of the art resources for everyone who's associated with the team to succeed looks like a losing inept franchise.

 

Our D can't stop anything and we're watching our qb get killed at times.

 

I'm absolutely calling out my team.

To the bolded part, we can only dream.......

[Colts_Fan12]

37 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

To the bolded part, we can only dream.......

Well I'm getting real sick of dreaming about the Colts having a dominant defense. I had to do that the entire Manning Era. It sucks lol

[VaAllDay757]

12 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It's well established that you hate everyone running the Colts right now. 

 

Where I think it's over the line is when uninformed fans start calling career football people inept, saying they're over their head and have no clue what they're doing, etc., especially when you're talking about a team that's been reasonably successful over the last five years. 

 

The Colts staff has made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm not confident in them, but I also don't think that they deserve most of the criticism they get around here. I think it's laughable that the majority of fans here can bang on Pagano for playing it safe at the end of the first half against the Titans, then talk about how many mistakes the offense made in the Chiefs game, including the second quarter pick. I think it's crazy that people -- including you -- are calling for the new OL coach to be fired because the OL isn't great after 8 games.

 

It's outrageous, I really do mean that. The zealotry and increasingly aggressive demeaning of everything related to the Colts is mind boggling. This organization has been well run for a long time now, and even the owner is receiving this venom now, primarily because he didn't fire the couple of guys that you all hate. 

 

I'm kind of at a loss for words. 

It's comments like this that makes me question some of ya'll mindset when it comes to this team.....you saying you understand the frustration when it comes to this team losing and not fixing the mistakes but you're also saying the coaches don't deserve most of the criticism???? Why not??? Are they not running the team? Getting them prepared for every game? Gameplan for the opponent? Of course they deserve that criticism every bit of it. They been making the same mistake for years what is so hard to understand your mistakes and not do it again? Obviously these guys don't get it we don't hate them personally we don't like their choices or way of thinking. Prime example they let sio moore go and have josh mcnary in the starting lineup who is our worst linebacker we have. You can say oh they work with these guys everyday they see things we don't....ok that's true but he's trash he can't cover he can't tackle at all why start him???? You're better off starting a rookie he shouldn't be on the roster anyway but that's good coaching though???? Irsay is getting criticism he deserves because he made the mistake to keep two guys for 4 more years who are not worthy of their jobs it's that simple and until he makes that change he will continue to receive it. Can't keep turning the other cheek acting like it's not that bad because it is that bad

[tfunky14]

21 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

It's comments like this that makes me question some of ya'll mindset when it comes to this team.....you saying you understand the frustration when it comes to this team losing and not fixing the mistakes but you're also saying the coaches don't deserve most of the criticism???? Why not??? Are they not running the team? Getting them prepared for every game? Gameplan for the opponent? Of course they deserve that criticism every bit of it. They been making the same mistake for years what is so hard to understand your mistakes and not do it again? Obviously these guys don't get it we don't hate them personally we don't like their choices or way of thinking. Prime example they let sio moore go and have josh mcnary in the starting lineup who is our worst linebacker we have. You can say oh they work with these guys everyday they see things we don't....ok that's true but he's trash he can't cover he can't tackle at all why start him???? You're better off starting a rookie he shouldn't be on the roster anyway but that's good coaching though???? Irsay is getting criticism he deserves because he made the mistake to keep two guys for 4 more years who are not worthy of their jobs it's that simple and until he makes that change he will continue to receive it. Can't keep turning the other cheek acting like it's not that bad because it is that bad

I agree with Superman. And the "Sio Morre" example? This is why some fans on here really don't see the issues as well. Moore was horrible, couldn't tackle or cover a flea. This is why he was released by the Raiders and now the Colts.