The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[2006Coltsbestever]

I think we will be fine, ok overall as a franchise because we have Andrew Luck and I do think Irsay is a great owner. As far as winning another SB we need a better O.Line and a dominate Pass Rusher. I know I am Mr .Obvious by saying that but that is it. We will see what this next Draft brings and Free Agency. I am just pleased after Peyton we have been Very Good and Andrew wasn't a bust. We have won a lot of games after Peyton and went to a Final 4 at least so far. Peyton was so great, most people took wins for granted. We were automatic 12-4 at worse for 7 straight years and could've went undefeated twice.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

12 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

Grigson being a egomaniac doesn't suddenly make Pagano a good coach. Both need to go.

I agree 100%.

But if only one of them goes it has to be Pagano.

[Gavin]

At this stage I'd say both. Both have dropped the ball a number of times costing us big

[Gavin]

Its called being a fanatic...Some are just more extreme/irrational then others

[Nadine]

I think people just have opinions.  A few have been a bit hateful but mostly people have been reasonable

[Nadine]

I don't know anything except rumors.  Happy to leave decision making to those who actually know what's going on

[ColtJax]

Question: Name one thing that Grigs has done to earn his keep? He's horrible at player evaluations and doesn't really draft well.

 

Rumor is that Atlanta is going to release their GM, he's a GREAT hire to replace a bad mistake.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Pagano.

With Luck and a competent HC we can get lucky and win a Super Bowl.

I doubt we can do that with pagano. Like the people in the Colts building are thinking, he is in over his head.

[DougDew]

   

7 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I think it's about the control (or the lack of control) that we fans have over this team. A lot of us would of fixed the O-Line better. A lot of us would have drafted different. I believe a few of us would have made this team better, and there's a lot of us who wouldn't of. The control is what upsets us and sets our emotions off when it comes to sports. 6 years ago, I lost almost $20,000 in one night on fulltilt poker when I went on a really bad streak. I was on tilt and kept playing and it took me 6 months to get that money back. It still bugged me less than this year of watching the Colts though, because I 100% controlled what I was doing and learned from it. I can learn from football, free agency, and the draft all the time, but I can't apply it to the real Colts team because I'm not in charge. Neither is anyone else here. We have all this knowledge and can't apply it and it's frustrating to see us struggle when people like us could fix these issues and it's out of our hands.

Hope this helps

 

Jared.  Sorry to hear about your financial loss.  I think the italicized comments in your post sort of sums up what I was thinking when I started this thread.

 

Frankly, I don't think there is anybody on this forum who could do half as good of job running a professional football team than the worst Owner, GM, or HC in NFL history has...who ever that may be.  I think the fan's opinion that they could do better is what fuels their frustration.  The insiders are the professionals, they have the experience, the training, the support staff.  The issues that the insiders have to deal with and balance with other issues is much more complex than simply playing fantasy Owner, GM, or HC, or OC, in our spare time. 

 

Not one of them is an * for making the decisions they did.  None of them sucks at their job.  We don't even know what their job really is...we just see the results on the football field...but there is a whole bunch more that goes into it than we will ever know..

 

 

 

 

[csmopar]

14 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Normally I agree with you, but this time I'm gonna have to disagree. If a president of a company doesn't allow his managers to run things a certain way, it isn't that managers fault. I understand what you're saying. I really do. But this report tells me Pagano deserves another shot with a different GM that isn't a control freak. 

 

 

I was fully on the fire both bandwagon but enlightened of specific examples, some we suspected, some we didnt,  of grigs meddling, I think we get rid of Grigs and keep Pagano. 

 

I was thinking it was they both go or they both stay, now I'm not so sure. Time will tell I suppose.  Monday will sure be interesting and it may not even happen then

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, LJpalmbeacher said:

I agree 100%.

But if only one of them goes it has to be Pagano.

I think it could very well be the opposite in light of this report. 

 

Let's face it, dude has led then to a 40-23 record with what is reported as an extre meddling GM. We don't know just how far into the game day process grigs was meddling in. I'd be okay with trying him out another year under a new gm

[DougDew]

11 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I think it could very well be the opposite in light of this report. 

 

Let's face it, dude has led then to a 40-23 record with what is reported as an extre meddling GM. We don't know just how far into the game day process grigs was meddling in. I'd be okay with trying him out another year under a new gm

A couple of us have pointed out...meddling in an of itself doesn't mean anything.  You could argue that with Grigson's meddling since 2012 (which is what Kravitz says), the Colts went to the playoff's because of it.

 

We don't know that the results would have been better if he didn't meddle.  The tone of the article suggests that the meddling held Pagano back...which doesn't mean anything unless holding Pagano back held the Colts back...and they made the playoffs three straight years.  Sometimes bosses have to meddle to keep things heading in the right direction...we just don't know.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

16 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I think it could very well be the opposite in light of this report. 

 

Let's face it, dude has led then to a 40-23 record with what is reported as an extre meddling GM. We don't know just how far into the game day process grigs was meddling in. I'd be okay with trying him out another year under a new gm

He turned down a 1 year extension in off season. He wanted a multi-year extension and I doubt and hope irsay doesn't give it to him.

[austriancolt]

Grigson needs to go. Period. You can't afford situations like this in your business. 

[BOTT]

5 hours ago, bluebombers87 said:

For the hiring process? No you're right. But you'd be foolish to think players looking to come to Indy don't consider the coach. You got a coach whom other players all say he's got your back (like throwing a challenge flag to show he supports you even if it was iffy) and outsiders will want that. So you might not think ra a big deal but to the people who actually matter I would bet it is a big deal.

 

And there's a difference between challenging your boss on matters and being insubordinate. We have no reason to believe that Pags didn't challenge Grigson (in fact, if we are to believe the rumors they must've butted heads at some point hence the barely talking point). The difference is that Pags has the class not to air the dirty laundry out in the open. GMs will see that and realize that he won't be a cancer to the organization.

Players will come to Indy for money and Andrew Luck.

 

Sometimes the situation calls for insubordination.

 

Nobody ever said Pagano should have ran to the press and aired the Colts dirty laundry.

[DougDew]

Okay folks..tell me what this means, because the first time I read it, and the second and third, I had no idea what it meant. Kravitz:

 

Grigson, who traded a first-round pick to the Cleveland Browns for running back Trent Richardson, continued to insist that Richardson play, and even start, despite the running back’s weight issues and obvious lack of production. According to sources, Grigson was concerned with creating the narrative that it was a good trade, something it clearly was not.

 

How would any source know that Grigson wanted to create a narrative for the trade? 

 

Really, only Grigson would know why he wanted TRich to start,  unless Grigson told the source that was the reason.

 

Uh...no...that is the OPINION of the source.  That's not a fact.  It could be Donald Brown's opinion......and not starting probably cost him a few hundred thousand dollars in a new contract

 

Its the kind of nonjournalism that fools people into thinking opinion is based on fact.  No.  Kravitz' opinion is based on someone else's opinion.  That's not journalism....Its entirely Op Ed tryng to be disguised as journalism.

[BOTT]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Really?      Seriously?       You wouldn't call that growing a pair?

 

Turning down guaranteed money for another year and betting on yourself when you're working for a GM who you think only makes your job harder?       That's not growing a pair?

 

Wow,  we really do see things differently..........     Guess that's what makes the world go around.....

 

Seriously.

 

Standing your ground isn't refusing what was reportedly a very modest one yr extension after putting up with crap from a poor GM like Grigson for 3 years.  sounds more like the behavior of a *.

[BOTT]

8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Okay folks..tell me what this means, because the first time I read it, and the second and third, I had no idea what it meant. Kravitz:

 

Grigson, who traded a first-round pick to the Cleveland Browns for running back Trent Richardson, continued to insist that Richardson play, and even start, despite the running back’s weight issues and obvious lack of production. According to sources, Grigson was concerned with creating the narrative that it was a good trade, something it clearly was not.

 

How would any source know that Grigson wanted to create a narrative for the trade? 

 

Really, only Grigson would know why he wanted TRich to start,  unless Grigson told the source that was the reason.

 

Uh...no...that is the OPINION of the source.  That's not a fact.  It could be Donald Brown's opinion......and not starting probably cost him a few hundred thousand dollars in a new contract

 

Its the kind of nonjournalism that fools people into thinking opinion is based on fact.  No.  Kravitz' opinion is based on someone else's opinion.  That's not journalism....Its entirely Op Ed tryng to be disguised as journalism.

I blame the chubacabra.  Just my theory.

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, ColtJax said:

Question: Name one thing that Grigs has done to earn his keep? He's horrible at player evaluations and doesn't really draft well.

 

Rumor is that Atlanta is going to release their GM, he's a GREAT hire to replace a bad mistake.

Why would be Dimitroff a great hire?

[DougDew]

19 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I blame the chubacabra.  Just my theory.

Why? I'm not being skeptical.  I have no opinion unless facts are presented. So enlighten me with the facts that you know.

 

I'm just wondering what the sentence According to sources, Grigson was concerned with creating the narrative that it was a good trade, something it clearly was not. means.  Can you tell me what it means?  Can you imagine how the interview with the source went and share it with us?

 

I think the sentence is meaningless, which is why I got confused by the paragraph the moment I read it...still am.

[JPFolks]

10 hours ago, DougDew said:

The past few weeks have had threads and comments filled with what seem like hate towards Pagano, Grigson, or both; which has been very strange to me.  Many comments indicate hate of almost a personal nature, like those guys ran over your dog, or caused you money in a betting pool.  Some seem personally offended at the idea the Colts might go 7-9.   This is just a football team.  It took a step back after its three straight years of forward progress.  No successful endeavor has ever had a straight line trajectory.  The people who run, manage, and coach the Colts all have decisions to make and things to consider that you and I would never come close to knowing about.   And most of all remember, Jim Irsay knows more about his business than you do, so enjoy the interest that change brings, because that's about the extent of what it means to us fans....interest. 

I think you explained it above.  There are things SO OBVIOUS that were BIG BIG problems that Grigson, for whatever reason in his head, decided not to fix and focus on and those problems killed the season and contributed to the bludgeoning of 3 consecutive Colts QB's ending each of their seasons.  For 3 years hordes of fans here, elsewhere and media have been begging Grigson to put a respectable line in front of our franchise player and he simply won't do it and apparently was able to deflect the blame of it all onto Pagano even though the majority of the blame is his.  That has caused a level of animosity against Grigson.  It's like a boss 3 levels up who is ruining the company and getting away with it.  Us peons can do no more than complain about and like most corporations, it all falls on deaf ears no matter how adamantly you try and warn them. If the problem is a bad coach, Grigson makes coaching decisions apparently, so he should have fired him long ago and gotten someone in better.  If it is the players, then it's 100% his fault.  That's why.   

[csmopar]

51 minutes ago, DougDew said:

A couple of us have pointed out...meddling in an of itself doesn't mean anything.  You could argue that with Grigson's meddling since 2012 (which is what Kravitz says), the Colts went to the playoff's because of it.

 

We don't know that the results would have been better if he didn't meddle.  The tone of the article suggests that the meddling held Pagano back...which doesn't mean anything unless holding Pagano back held the Colts back...and they made the playoffs three straight years.  Sometimes bosses have to meddle to keep things heading in the right direction...we just don't know.

I agree. I'm just saying we don't know the extent of the meddling or the purpose. But forcing a coach to play TRICH when it was obvious to all who the starter should have been is HOLDING the Colts back. That is just one example but there is a possibility of others

[ztboiler]

9 hours ago, DougDew said:

Hmmm...I'm thinking that people must be having arguments with other people from other threads about something else and its carried over to this one.

 

 

You seem surprised...

 

You walked into the middle of a lynch mob and said "why the hate, can't we all just get along?"

 

I'm surprised you are surprised.

[JPFolks]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

   

Not one of them is an * for making the decisions they did.  None of them sucks at their job.  We don't even know what their job really is...we just see the results on the football field...but there is a whole bunch more that goes into it than we will ever know..

 

 

 

 

If none of them sucks at their job, why are they firing Pagano and others?  Politics (in the football sense) often seems to be the culprit when a team can have one of the most successful runs of the past 4 years and still the coach gets fired.  That's yet another reason people get annoyed.  They have to helplessly deal with it in their lives but football gives many a chance to finally vent on the ignorance and injustice. 

[DougDew]

14 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I agree. I'm just saying we don't know the extent of the meddling or the purpose. But forcing a coach to play TRICH when it was obvious to all who the starter should have been is HOLDING the Colts back. That is just one example but there is a possibility of others

Actually, I disagree.  One of the favorable things people have said about Chud is the idea of continuing to run the ball even when it isn't working.  You know, even though we're getting 2 YPC. 

 

That is a good thing, right?

 

Gore, Bradshaw, and TRich are/were the pounders, and DBrown and Boom are/were the slashers.  Isn't it common NFL running strategy to pound the rock early and then hit them with the change of pace back?

 

According to Chud, it doesn't really matter if the pounder is getting 2 YPC, you keep doing it.  So, I would think it would be logical to start TRich (unless there was another pounder on the roster and I don't think there was).  

 

Again, I don't understand that whole TRich paragraph in the article when I think, just based upon what I read about NFL rushing strategy, that the current OC, and many others,  would probably start TRich too. 

 

[TheRustonRifle#7]

9 hours ago, Carlos Danger said:

I really like Pagano... Stand up guy, for sure. I agree with most here that his in-game coaching is suspect, but personally, he's as good a dude as you'll find in the whole league. I wish things were different. He might just not have the chops to coach us to a championship.

 

I have a more fluid opinion of Grigson. He seems like he might be a bit of a jerk, but I can't really make that judgement. I really wish he were better at judging O-Line talent... I sort of feel like, if he can't get along with Chuck, who can he work with? ( as far as coaches are concerned) 

 

I really have no issues with either on a personal level, but we should be further along at this point in the reload. 

 

 

 

The bolded is a very astute observation, imo....

[DougDew]

18 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

If none of them sucks at their job, why are they firing Pagano and others?  Politics (in the football sense) often seems to be the culprit when a team can have one of the most successful runs of the past 4 years and still the coach gets fired.  That's yet another reason people get annoyed.  They have to helplessly deal with it in their lives but football gives many a chance to finally vent on the ignorance and injustice. 

I don't know exactly all that is involved with them doing their jobs on a daily basis, so I can't go so far as using the word suck. 

 

I think there are things behind the scenes as to why Colts management is not high on Chuck.  Perhaps the fairly common slow starts and Luck's failure to evolve past the downfield vertical game may be two reasons for that.  There may be others.  Grigs and Irsay see things every day that may lead them to shaking their heads. 

 

Irsay may see some unlikeable things about the way Grigson goes about his job too.

 

They are in position to see why the winning seasons are what they are beyond us fans, who simply see the results and the stats.

[OffensivelyPC]

12 hours ago, BOTT said:

 

Why do people do this - quote and then give no response. Does it mean something? I've seen it several times recently and now I'm starting to wonder.

[lincolndefan]

why does anyone have to fired? straighten out the differences and proceed on. On the other hand, if you fire one without the other, this could set the Colts back for a little while. I've got a thought I haven't read on here, retain Pags and give him the full reins. If he's any good, well how about that! If he fails, well how about that! Look people, Mr. Irsay created this mess and it's him that has to fix it or not! If my memory serves me well, I remember Polian making decisions regarding this team also. Anyone remember the decision regarding going for an undefeating season or resting players!

[Dustin]

.

[Rally5]

I just read the Kravitz piece and saw all the comments about Grigs and Pags, not surprised if it's true.  What isn't being discussed is the ultimate leader of this organization is Jim Irsay.  If, in fact, this type of interference is true it can't be unknown to Jim.  If Jim then allows it to continue, that's his leadership issue.  Let's not also forget it was Jim that decided to part ways with Polian who, like him or not, is one of the best FO guys in NFL history and replace him with this current clown show.  Under this regime, the drafts, trades, line-ups, game plans have all been highly questionable.  I rarely felt that way under the Polian/Dungy regime, not that they were perfect of course but always highly competent leadership.  I worry that Jim isn't all that competent anymore himself for a variety of reasons that we need not get into, but these two guys came in both completely unproven in their roles and Jim "liked them immediately."  That's telling, concerning and perhaps not surprising considering what we're hearing.  So where's Jim's leadership in managing all this strife, he can't condone it, so how was it allowed to happen? In the future I would hope to find 2 NFL proven people (Coach and GM).  Ideally two people who are known to each other with some sort of agreeable work history.  Irsay should prioritize this with whatever search firm he's using.  The situation I'd like to see is (since nobody is asking):

 

• *A GM and HC that both report up to the Owner and decouple the HC reporting the GM relationship.  I think a HC has to have some personnel authority but not all, the job is  too big and complex for one guy.
• *HC has final say on all in season personnel decisions.
• *GM has final say on all draft and cap matters. 
• *Both report directly to the owner who breaks all impasses.

1.  

Problem is, I don't know if Irsay is still that guy....

 

The dark side clouds everything, impossible to see the future is.  -Yoda

 

 

[Dustin]

4 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Why do people do this - quote and then give no response. Does it mean something? I've seen it several times recently and now I'm starting to wonder.

 

[OffensivelyPC]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Really?      Seriously?       You wouldn't call that growing a pair?

 

Turning down guaranteed money for another year and betting on yourself when you're working for a GM who you think only makes your job harder?       That's not growing a pair?

 

Wow,  we really do see things differently..........     Guess that's what makes the world go around.....

 

Or he could have turned it down simply because he would rather not coach with Grigs as the GM and wanted to see if he would be fired first.

[pacolts56]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Last time Irsay had a big decision like this to make, everyone assumed Jim Caldwell would go on Black Monday. Instead, it was Polian, the man behind the curtain. And then Irsay made the decision on Caldwell along with his new GM. 

 

History could repeat itself. Irsay might send Grigson packing, and wait on Pagano. But there's no telling. We'll find out in four days.

Isn't it interesting to recall Polian's dismissal and Irsay's "I want my team back" comment....and then fast-forwarding to this f$#+&ing mess we have now?

 

Polian, even with his dictatorial quirks,  was an established and accomplished executive and still managed to make it work successfully with the temperamentally polar opposite Tony Dungy.

 

Grigson has no such credentials as a GM....and it reinforces my belief that pairing a 1st time GM with a 1st time Head Coach....and evidently NOT setting clear GM/HC parameters is where Irsay went wrong.

 

Grigson and Pagano have clearly made their fair share of well-discussed unforced errors in their respective roles. And hitting some of those potholes is normal for any team. With two guys in the big chair for the first time....you're gonna have that.

 

But allowing this situation to fester and wallowing in this kind of f$%&ing nonsense, if it IS true....lies squarely at the feet of Jimmy Irsay.

 

Irsay is a good owner but he can't have it both ways by lamenting the strongman VP Polian's overreaching control and subsequently firing him....and then allowing an unproven tenderfoot like Grigson to pull this alledged meddling crap without stepping in and BEHIND CLOSED DOORS....straightening both Grigson and Pagano out before it all goes to hell.

 

But sure enough, it appears that Irsay has allowed the management/coaching culture to rot.

 

IMO....an experienced GM and HC tandem that have working history is the best outcome....if there is even one to be found.

 

[coltsva]

The answer really depends on who we are getting to replace them. 

 

However, if I had to choose I'd get rid of the coaches.

 

I think Grigson has shown progress with the 2015 draft and free agent acquisitions (overall). With the coaching staff, there are still too many games with slow starts where I yell at the screen "What have you been doing all week?" And when the Colts do start with a good plan it seems they are surprised and have no answers when the other team comes out with 2nd half adjustments.

 

 

 

[BOTT]

26 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Why do people do this - quote and then give no response. Does it mean something? I've seen it several times recently and now I'm starting to wonder.

It's some kind of glitch with the new site make over.  Sometimes when I make multiple posts in a thread it automatically quotes the previous person I responded to.  

[BOTT]

You can't lay all that out there and say you don't want to get into why Jim isn't all that competent anymore.  Did he fall down and scramble his eggs or something?

[BOTT]

Grigson.  He is capable of more long term damage to the franchise than Chuck.  

[Mr. Irrelevant]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

Grigson.  He is capable of more long term damage to the franchise than Chuck.  

Good point...

[OffensivelyPC]

It's been 4 years, which is a reasonable time frame to figure out whether you've got your guys. They clearly arent, so now he is doing something about it. Bad working relationships happen, sometimes guys get hire for jobs they aren't qualified for or turn out to not be able to do the job well.  It happens. Doesn't make Jim incompetent or a bad leader, especially since he is clearly doing something about it.