Does this team need to be rebuilt?

[ColtsFanMikeC]

It was quite obvious when Grigson took over as GM that the team needed pretty much a complete rebuild (we were the laughing stock of the league).  This team now is certainly much different than the one Grigs' inherited -- and IMO pretty much any player that can still play at a high level in this league from that team besides Bethea remains on this team (Castonzo, Vinny, McAfee, Mathis -- and even Reitz is decent as a back-up).

 

While the team has basically totally changed, I'm not sure if it is for the better.  I still believe Luck is a franchise QB and hope he is retained over the long-term.  However, across the board, we have major gaps in many positions.  It seems like between Dorsett, Moncrief, and TY we should be set at WR for a fairly long time (especially if Duron Carter develops).  I'm not sure what to think at TE, Fleener and Allen seem to have regressed or stopped making progress this year (could be just a scheme issue?).  Outside of Castonzo and Mewhort, I am not optimistic about our OL.  Parry and (a healthy) Anderson look like they are capable of becoming long-term solutions on the DL (and even Langford to some extent), but Art Jones hasn't been healthy in 2 years and we could use upgrades among all other players.  Our LB corps, outside of DQwell and Walden (both aging) looks like it could use a large revamping.  Our secondary, outside of Davis was not very impressive this year (Adams when healthy, but he doesn't have much time left - and I think Geathers has a bright future in this league).

 

I guess as I look at it, I don't really know that this team is much more talented than the team Grigson inherited -- it would be a shame to see Luck have to go through an entire new rebuild, but it is also pretty obvious, IMO, that we need serious player upgrades at multiple positions for this team to be competitive over the long-haul, regardless of what changes are made to the coaching staff (the AFC South, with Bortles and Mariota plus the Texans' D is not going to be the laughing stock of the league much longer, IMO).

 

What are others' thoughts?

[oldunclemark]

Offensively, we're fine when healthy..

...we do need edge rushers on defense and true safeties (,like everybody else)

 

...we're 6-8 because we lost Luck early ......even Colts fans don't realize how good he is

[oldunclemark]

we dont need to be rebuilt

[SIXTHOBJECT]

Fix the offensive and defensive line problem solved. You have to protect the the Qb

[Coffeedrinker]

I don't think it needs to be rebuilt.  But there are some changes that need to be made:

 

LBers:  As a group they are too old.  Freeman - 30+, Jackson, 30+, Mathis, 30+, Cole, 30+ and the only one effective in that group is Jackson.

 

Safeties:  Too old.

 

I think the Colts are set at LT, LG, C (if they'd stick with Holmes) RG and RT (Reitz will do fine in that role for another year and then Good can take over)

 

They are set at WR.

 

Obviously they are set at QB

 

They are set at TE (assuming they sign Fleener and/or Allen)

 

They are set with langord, Anderson and Parry.

 

BTW when I say set I mean starters, improved back-ups is always the goal of any NFL team.

 

They need a rush LB, a couple of ILB, a safety and a corner.

[DougDew]

Definitely NOT!

 

It lacks several impact players on defense, (2 OLBs, an ILB, and a CB) and a competent center.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Definitely NOT!

 

It lacks several impact players on defense, (2 OLBs, an ILB, and a CB) and a competent center.

 

I would also argue an RG, a RT, another DL that can push the pocket, and possibly another S (Lowery was OK and Geathers looks promising yet unproven.   We are also very close to needing a new RB (Gore can't have much more left in the tank), a second ILB (to replace D'Qwell), and another S (to replace Adams).  I'm also very interested to see what we do about our TE situation -- Fleener and Allen will both probably be looking to get paid pretty well, but I'm not sure how we approach that as this seems to have been a lacklust year for both of them (given the QB changes and other issues, it may not be their fault).

[BOTT]

It never felt completely built

[NBColtsFanatic]

Kind of, we technically never even "rebuilt".

[Flash]

**This is an excerpt from my post in the Festivus thread**

 

You can make an argument that the only positions of strength on the team are 1) Receivers, 2) TEs and 3) D-line. Going forward, if these units remain intact, we are good there for the foreseeable future. QB obviously, as long as Luck remains healthy.

 

We do not have a healthy outlook at DB, MLB, OLB, OL, or RB. 

DB - The only play maker at DB is V. Davis. Butler is average and everyone else is below average. D. Smith is an unknown commodity.

S -(Adams - age, not a part of the future). Geathers is a player that must step up. Lowery is average and serviceable.

 

MLB - DQ is old and we shouldn't expect him to produce at the same level moving forward. Freeman is average. I am not as high on Irving or Sio Moore as others may be. We shall see what happens with them, but I have my concerns still that these positions will need to be addressed in the near future, which means more draft picks and FA acquisitions to shore up a position that we have tried to address numerous times.

 

OLB - The cupboard is bare.I mean bare. Mathis is old and only getting older. Cole was a band-aid and will not be around much longer. Werner, no need to discuss him any further. Newsome has been a disappointment this year, but should be given the opportunity to improve.

 

O-Line - The O-line is an issue with many teams, not just the Colts. There is a lack of quality lineman coming into the league and when they do come in, it takes time to develop. However, we do need to address C, RT. I think Hugh Thornton is fine at RG.

 

RB - Frank Gore is a good RB but he is old and we can see him start to wear down already. He will not be a part of the future. Boom is average. Bradshaw - IR'd again. I am not high on Varga -- he is a hard runner but he is not the answer at RB. Robinson flashed some talent. Overall, we will have some holes to fill here.

 

As yo can see, after 4 years with Grigs, what has he built? An offensive unit with great skill players (QB, RE, TE) who are negated by average to terrible O-line play, and still no run game.

 

After 4 years, we have mostly the same problems on defense: bad secondary, no pass rush, an overall marshmallow soft defense. We have limited draft picks and limited money to spend and almost an entire team's worth of positions to fill. I know we have Andrew Luck, which means that we will find a way to win games, but how does this not look like a coming rebuild?

[Yoshinator]

IMO, the best strategy, if possible, would be to trade down in the 2016 NFL Draft. If we were able to get a pick from 10-12, we could trade down 5-10 spots and pick up an extra 2nd rounder, then draft from there and have a really good draft to help this team. We could get an OT, an OLB, a CB, and a OG with the 1st four picks and be in great shape. Even if we make the playoffs and go one and done, we could still trade our pick in the 20s for a 2nd and 3rd rounder and have two picks in each round. We need to make some move in the draft to speed up the rebuilding process. We were ahead of schedule, now we are falling behind, and I don't want to waste Luck's prime trying to put together a competent team. 

[DougDew]

14 minutes ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

I would also argue an RG, a RT, another DL that can push the pocket, and possibly another S (Lowery was OK and Geathers looks promising yet unproven.   We are also very close to needing a new RB (Gore can't have much more left in the tank), a second ILB (to replace D'Qwell), and another S (to replace Adams).  I'm also very interested to see what we do about our TE situation -- Fleener and Allen will both probably be looking to get paid pretty well, but I'm not sure how we approach that as this seems to have been a lacklust year for both of them (given the QB changes and other issues, it may not be their fault).

Art Jones is returning, so I'd not concern myself with the DL this year.   I think Thornton, Reitz, and Good deserve another year at their positions.  I'd add a C.

 

It depends on what "rebuild" means.  Adding another RB should be a priority.  Between FA and the draft, I think one should be available.  

 

Fleener and Doyle are fine.  I'd like to find a reliable, tough, vet in FA and draft another late for the PS.

 

I'm okay with Freeman if he is the second-best ILB on the team.  I'm okay with Adams, Lowery, and Geathers for one more year, hoping Geathers improves enough to take some PT from Adams.  I'd draft another one late.

 

We really need the C, OLBs, an ILB, and another CB.  I think 4 draft picks and one vet FA to fill those 5.

[DougDew]

11 minutes ago, Flash said:

 

OLB - The cupboard is bare.I mean bare. Mathis is old and only getting older. Cole was a band-aid and will not be around much longer. Werner, no need to discuss him any further. Newsome has been a disappointment this year, but should be given the opportunity to improve.

 

A good assessment.  I'd sign Von Miller and pick another at #15 (or wherever we'll pick..and not reach). 

 

Yes, I'd double up the investment.

[Superman]

Good teams have playmakers on both sides of the ball. Not just capable starters that you can make work and scheme around, but guys who make the rest of the team better. It's one thing to do a positional breakdown and say 'we're okay at these positions.' It's another thing to look for playmakers throughout the roster, and come up with practically none. Our punter is one of our five best playmakers. That's not good.

 

Offense: Luck, Hilton, Moncrief, (AC is on my list, but a LT isn't a "playmaker")

Defense: Davis

 

There are lots of other "adequate" players that don't need to be thrown out with the trash. But those players shouldn't be relied on to get better, to make plays, to raise the quality of the team overall. There are a few young players we all like, or that have shown flashes, but they are still unknowns. Henry Anderson might be a defensive linchpin; everyone knows how much I like him, but there are still questions about how good he'll be, especially after his injury. Same for Mewhort, Geathers, and others.

 

To me, a "rebuild" isn't necessary. What is necessary is to add playmakers, especially on defense. We need a pass rusher (or three), improvement at ILB (or play Sio Moore...???), and a #2 corner, maybe a safety. Improve the offensive line by signing a starter at center, and signing and drafting competition at guard/tackle. Add a scat back. And hope we get the good Andrew Luck back (no doubt in my mind). That's pretty much a concerted upgrade at five positions, targeting 6-7 players, and then the team is back on track. Those "adequate" players can fill roles, do their jobs, and won't be relied on to be difference makers. 

 

And no matter what, don't let the 2016 season begin without this team knowing how to execute a screen pass.

[Hoosiernsavga]

Our defense needs to be rebuilt. We have some good young talent to start the process with!

[COLTS449]

Y no. Come on man. When you have a QB like Andrew Luck you don't rebuild. You go out and bring in some players and reload. With 2 major free agent signings on defense, and 2-3 immediate impact players added through the draft we'll be set next year. Especially since we're looking at a top 10 pick. I'd say no later than 12th or so.

[loudnproudcolt]

I agree with the no to rebuild, but we do neet a RT and RG. On the defensive side, we have nobody in the linebacker core, we need a CB on the other side and a safety. I think Gathers will step up for next year.

 

If we cut Cole, AJ, Gore, Mathis and DQ (I believe this is our biggest place of need-LB), this adds almost 28M to the cap next year, giving us over 50M in capspace next year giving us plenty of options. I don't want to go wild, and I want to address 3-4 positions. We would have plenty  to go after a quality  RT, RG, and possibly a Center and/or CB. Sign Luck to his extension, and extend Allen and Fleener. Then we hit defense with the draft, and if I had my way we would draft Jaylon Smith. He would be a key impact player we can build around, much like the panthers and Kuechly. Only catch is, do we need to go to a 4-3. That question will be answered by the new coach.

 

So, I think the answer is no to a rebuild, but we need to get younger on defense, jettison all the older players who have some pretty large contracts, considering what they have been contributing, and get younger on the defensive side of the ball with the draft.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

Good teams have playmakers on both sides of the ball. Not just capable starters that you can make work and scheme around, but guys who make the rest of the team better. It's one thing to do a positional breakdown and say 'we're okay at these positions.' It's another thing to look for playmakers throughout the roster, and come up with practically none. Our punter is one of our five best playmakers. That's not good.

 

Offense: Luck, Hilton, Moncrief, (AC is on my list, but a LT isn't a "playmaker")

Defense: Davis

 

There are lots of other "adequate" players that don't need to be thrown out with the trash. But those players shouldn't be relied on to get better, to make plays, to raise the quality of the team overall. There are a few young players we all like, or that have shown flashes, but they are still unknowns. Henry Anderson might be a defensive linchpin; everyone knows how much I like him, but there are still questions about how good he'll be, especially after his injury. Same for Mewhort, Geathers, and others.

 

To me, a "rebuild" isn't necessary. What is necessary is to add playmakers, especially on defense. We need a pass rusher (or three), improvement at ILB (or play Sio Moore...???), and a #2 corner, maybe a safety. Improve the offensive line by signing a starter at center, and signing and drafting competition at guard/tackle. Add a scat back. And hope we get the good Andrew Luck back (no doubt in my mind). That's pretty much a concerted upgrade at five positions, targeting 6-7 players, and then the team is back on track. Those "adequate" players can fill roles, do their jobs, and won't be relied on to be difference makers. 

 

And no matter what, don't let the 2016 season begin without this team knowing how to execute a screen pass.

That's a good assessment.  I'll put it more succinctly....The Colts need to add 3 to 4 players, which sounds easy. 

 

But outside of Luck, TY, and Vontae, they need to be the best 3 to 4 players on the roster.  Not so easy.

[Surge89]

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I don't think it needs to be rebuilt.  But there are some changes that need to be made:

 

LBers:  As a group they are too old.  Freeman - 30+, Jackson, 30+, Mathis, 30+, Cole, 30+ and the only one effective in that group is Jackson.

Agreed.  Sio gives me hope if they'd actually play him...

 

We had a golden opportunity to fix this last draft.

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Safeties:  Too old.

Somewhat disagree.  Gathers can play.  He needs some work but he can play.  All we need is a counterpart or a playmaker. (Depending on what type of resource the regime is willing to invest)

 

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I think the Colts are set at LT, LG, C (if they'd stick with Holmes) RG and RT (Reitz will do fine in that role for another year and then Good can take over)

I see the need for a RT.  Even if it's just for depth.  Someone who can play either tackle spot or be groomed for it.  Of course that's only if Holmes actually plays...

 

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They are set at WR.

Agreed. 

 

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Obviously they are set at QB

Need a backup.  Not that pressing

 

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They are set at TE (assuming they sign Fleener and/or Allen)

I only see us set if we keep both.  Doyle isn't dependable enough to be threat (at least from what we've seen) and the team kinda butchered our chance at keeping Allen.  

 

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They are set with langord, Anderson and Parry.

Agreed.  Just need one more role player.  And this squad is gonna be great.

 

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BTW when I say set I mean starters, improved back-ups is always the goal of any NFL team.

I know :-) I just wanted to converse

 

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They need a rush LB, a couple of ILB, a safety and a corner.

 

Imo the needs are running back, pass rusher, corner, and ILB.  RB I think needs to be a decently high priority and if we can get a top 15 pass rusher can definitely be addressed.  

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

Offensively, we're fine when healthy..

...we do need edge rushers on defense and true safeties (,like everybody else)

 

...we're 6-8 because we lost Luck early ......even Colts fans don't realize how good he is

 

You think this offense is "fine" when healthy?     Not me.

 

Even our o-line when healthy?      I think our o-line is -- at best -- bottom third of the league and it might be worse than that.    Much worse than that.       And without a good o-line,  the offense will never be what we want it to be no matter how many wide receivers we sign.

 

[SteelDragon]

Team needs an infusion of dynamic playmakers on defense and some blue chippers on the o-line.  It should be attainable

[funktacious2]

I hate it when pundits say we're a team devoid of talent. That's just not true, we have plenty of talent and some playmakers, I think we have major problem areas, that if fixed, will help our playmakers shine. We all know what they are. When is the last time we have had a good rushing attack or great cosistent pass protection? When is the last time we were able to more cosistently get after the quarterback? 

 

I think we have some great talent on our offense whom are nailed down for quite a long time (once we resigned Luck). T.Y. will be with us for many more years, Moncrief for at least 2 more years, Dorsett for 3 more, we might keep Gore and Johnson around.

 

Our defense is our biggest issue long term. Outside of Davis, I'm not sure if any of our other corners are worth keeping around. Smith will probably get another chance, but we can't expect too much, especially since he kind of has the size and expectancy to fit in more as a nickel than traditional corner like Davis. Our pass rush needs gutted too, Grigson has struck out with his pass rushers. It's not his fault Mathis got hurt, but Cole, Werner, and Newsome are hardly worth a roster spot and Walden is simply too average for us to want him to be a long term starter. I like where our d-line is headed. I think we  cut Arthur Jones,  get Anderson back to healthy and work on that depth some more and then we're looking good. Adams is a solid safety, but older now, and his seasons are numbered. Lowery is nothing special, I think I'd rather see us give Heathers a shot or try for a young talent in next year's draft.  I doubt it, though, because the issues at o-line and pass rush and secondary are just too much.

[gacoop1]

I totally agree with your assessment.  The team needs an overhaul in likes of D-Line, they are approaching medicaire status. They need to get young.  All along I've always emphasize that defense win games..  They need to get rid of the coaches  and the GM, especially Manusky. Four years to have an opportunity to build a monster, didn't happen Need to take lessons from the DC in Denver, after one year, defense is #1.

[HungarianColtsFan]

No, this team doesn't need to be rebuilt, but needs reinforcement, especially in O. The talent is there IMO, still the team is underperforming.

 

[ThaCaliColt]

Upgrading at the linebacker position should be a point of emphasis. For a 3-4 style defense, this team has some of the slowest, oldest and average linebacking groups...I would perhaps retain one or two of them perhaps as depth players. 

[SteelCityColt]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

Offense: Luck, Hilton, Moncrief, (AC is on my list, but a LT isn't a "playmaker")

Defense: Davis

 

 

As you said and also identified here, we're very short on playmakers on the defense and have been for a while. The only thing I'd add is that the production/relative talent of "adequate" players improves with the more playmakers you have around them (duh). Conversely I think a lack of pass rush and putting him out on an island has hurt Davis' performance this season. Sure good corners have to be able to cover 1 on 1 but the best corner can't cover forever which is roughly how long opposing QBs have had at times

[Myles]

Not sure what the definition of rebuilt is as it relates to this thread.    I say YES the Colts need rebuilt.   They have allot of older players and very few bright young players.   Not many that one would say "He looks like he will be a star in a year or 2".   With Jax and Houston on the rise, the Colts could find themselves near or at the bottom of the division the next couple years.  

 

I sure hope not, but even with Luck, this current team wasn't very good.

[Jim H.]

Rebuild "the Monster?"  The Dickens you say!

[Gavin]

The needs are obvious at this point:

 

-Toler gone

-Rush Linebacker

-An interior O Line that can run block across the board. Mewhort on over to Thornton cant

-Another big physical WR who can get off physical coverage, Get a little physical with ours and they fold often like a cheap tent

-ILB's

 

The reality is not all of these will be addressed because you don't draft based on need unless the talent fits the need

 

[King Colt]

Look at the rankings to answer the OP.  "Rebuilt" may not be the correct term but no one can tell me their "focus" was on winning the SB rather it appears it was on competing. Everyone competes but only a few win. No running attack. You must e able to move the ball on the ground and in the air to win. It is as fundamental as putting on a helmet. Add to this I am sick of Pagano praising his team for losing.

[NagelHausForge]

The immediate needs I see are:

 

Center: Holmes can't stay healthy and Harrisson isn't the answer.  Get a good Center in there and watch the line gel.  Not sure if we would want to start a Rookie center next year, but hey why not?  They started Harrisson for some god forsaken reason...

 

Running Back: Robinson and Varga don't seem to be starters at this point.  Need to look for another RB in the draft to get in there and mix it up.  Not sure if Boom will be back or not either. 

 

Tight End: Most likely one or both of Fleener and Allen won't be returning.  Doyle isn't the dynamic receiving threat we need but he is a heck of a good blocker.  Might need to look for another TE if Swoop doesn't develop.

 

Wide Receiver: This group has been mystifying this year.  The talent seems to be there but they're just not getting open.  Not sure if it is the route tree they're running or what.  I am inclined to say we are good here but if an upgrade is available in the draft or a young FA (and I stress YOUNG) then it might be worth looking at it.

 

D-line: Just need depth.  Anderson, Parry and Langford were stout early on until injuries hit.  Jones is gone.  Cant stay healthy unfortunately.  Look to develop depth in the draft.

 

Linebackers: Need to get younger and faster and better at the pass rush.  Don't know if that will come via the draft or what but this group has been a big disappointment.  They can't cover TEs, can't get to the passer, and outside of Jackson they look soft against the run.  I would say this is our biggest need on D.

 

Defensive Backs: Second biggest need.  Toler needs to be put out to pasture.  Hopefully Smith can develop into a good cover corner.  Would like to see one more lock down type young corner to develop.  Butler is a good slot guy but that's it.  Safety position is developing but would like to see a true safety drafted in 2016.

 

And please, STOP wasting money on old free agents that are just looking for one final payday before they hang it up.  Above all else this team needs to build chemistry at these positions.  This team needs to get younger.  We are supposed to be the cardiac colts not the geriatric colts.

[ProblChld32]

Completely rebuilt? No, do we need some Pieces? Absolutely. if we can get some Quality guys at these positions i think we will be in a great position

 

OL 

OLB

CB

S

 

You get some SOLID contributors at those positions we are good in My opinion. 

 

OH yea and i think our offensive scheme needs to be revamped. When Arians was calling the shots i LOVED his style of offense big plays down field as a pass first team but he still ran the ball to keep defenses true. if we can go back to that style of offense i think that will certainly help as well 

[ALL BLUE]

Sometimes I even question our skill set players.Tight ends and receivers seem to get no separation in some games.

[Ryan Pelley]

I wouldn't say rebuilt. I'd say entirely overhauled. The entire defense and offensive line. It's not a quick fix. Healthy Luck or not, this is not a good team, IMO.

[deedub75]

We never really rebuilt. Just tried to win now. Then I think they got complacent with the 11-5 seasons and getting further in the playoffs and not really looking at how that was achieved. All they had to do was go slightly over .500 outside of the division and they would win the division. They got a false sense that the team was set for the future. 

[ThaCaliColt]

True. It was generally assumed by year two or three (or so it seemed) that the team was a few pieces short of being a contender and that these aquisitions could be picked up via free agency. The defense has largely appeared to be a revolving door of project players and "Band-aid" veterans well past their prime. The offensive line has been addressed a couple times in the draft, but the results have been lackluster. I'm beginning to wonder how much of the emphasis or blame falls on this coaching staff. Who is the offensive line coach and why is his name never brought up? Who is the conditioning coach? Why is the team so incompetent in the second half of football games? Why is there no consistency whatsover in the quality of play on the field? I believe a lot of these players could be successful in other environments. This team lacks direction and discipline.

[Coltsone]

Irsay needs to start with the rebuild with somebody to replace Grigson, do I need to go through the litany of bad decisions? Offensive line and defensive line need total rebuilds, something Grigson has ignored. The number one pick for Trent Richardson was a beauty, and free agent WR Johnson was a big contributor too right? Give me a break......

[2006Coltsbestever]

We do not need to be rebuilt. We just have to improve on the O.Line and get a Great Pass Rusher and a new Coach at this point would just be refreshing. With Luck, TY, Moncrief, and Gore we have the weapons on Offense to be Good. We need to get younger through Free Agency but 1 bad year doesn't mean we need to totally rebuild. You guys do know the Panthers went 7-8-1 last season and only won their Division because it stunk. This season they are 14-0. We have had a ton of injuries and lost Andrew so it is what it is. Lets see how Good the Panthers would be without Cam?

[Superman]

1 hour ago, ThaCaliColt said:

True. It was generally assumed by year two or three (or so it seemed) that the team was a few pieces short of being a contender and that these aquisitions could be picked up via free agency. 

 

Not really. It was assumed that the young players would continue to develop and be major contributors. The free agents were meant to plug short term holes. Vick Ballard, Josh Chapman, LaVon Brazill, Richardson, Werner, Hughes, Holmes, Boyett, Newsome, etc., were all expected to be a part of the puzzle. They haven't been.

 

The free agents have been hit and miss, pretty much on par with league standards. None of them were meant to be long term solutions, and several were undermined by injuries. It would help if one or two of them turned out to be high quality players, and that's what you always hope for, but it's not likely when you're signing middling free agents to team friendly contracts. 

[ThaCaliColt]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Not really. It was assumed that the young players would continue to develop and be major contributors. The free agents were meant to plug short term holes. Vick Ballard, Josh Chapman, LaVon Brazill, Richardson, Werner, Hughes, Holmes, Boyett, Newsome, etc., were all expected to be a part of the puzzle. They haven't been.

 

The free agents have been hit and miss, pretty much on par with league standards. None of them were meant to be long term solutions, and several were undermined by injuries. It would help if one or two of them turned out to be high quality players, and that's what you always hope for, but it's not likely when you're signing middling free agents to team friendly contracts.

I know. It has been disappointing the amount of younger players that haven't contributed at the level anticipated. I look at that list above and some of those guys showed flashes of greatness such as Newsome and Ballard. Of course, God knows what productivity we could have had with Ballard discounting the injuries...