Pagano's future?

[tfunky14]

Thinking it from that perspective really made me appreciate the Colts more. We are a truly blessed team. 

I agree, I just wish the spoiled people on here would understand that...

[ColtStronger]

Heck it took until Manning's sixth year just to win a playoff game, something this group accomplished in their second attempt at it.  The honest truth was when this team was 2-14 and they hit the self-destruct button most people said it would take three years just to be competitive again.  Had anyone said then that the Colts would make the playoffs the following three years and win the division the last two years of it that person would have been laughed off this forum and labeled a homer quicker than TY Hilton burns the Texans.  Had we been given that choice people would have signed up for it in a heart beat. 

 

Flash forward three years and now the team is wasting Luck and company...  I don't think they are wasting them I think they are ahead of the schedule they were brought in to be on.  They are gaining Luck and the other young players on this roster invaluable experience that will benefit them as they come into the prime of their careers which Luck and company have not hit yet.  They are still learning and growing and the fact they already have so much post-season experience and learning early what it takes to win will only help them down the line.  For most teams in the NFL you have to learn to win, yes once in a while you'll see a team catch lighting in a bottle and just go on a run, but for most it's a process.  The Colts are already light years ahead of where they were supposed to be in that process.

 

Yet because they aren't perfect people want to fire the coach.  Stop and think about 2011 and where you honestly thought this team would be by 2014 and where they actually are and all of the sudden you gain a whole new respect for the job Pagano and Grigson have done. 

People have extremely short termed memory, and aren't ever satisfied until they get what they want.  During the 2-14 season most of these fans just skipped football season, and miraculously Colts didn't skip a beat translating the helm to Luck.  Weve had close to 2 decades of winning football, that's why you have unsatisfied fans.  Everybody needs to be patient though.  If Luck wins 3 straight SB's then has 2 off years, will they label him as washed up?  To be in the situation we are is almost too good to be true.  A 3rd year rebuilt team is really lucky to make the playoffs for the first time.  Let alone 3 playoff births + divisional titles each year!  I can't imagine if we were back to the 80s and majority of the 90s.  Good thing we will have Luck for another 15 years, but whoever takes over after that, better be extremely humbled. 

[Smash Mouth]

Coach Chuck has taken us to the playoffs.

That's the bottom line.

You don't fire a coach who's made the playoffs every year.

Next question.

Dungy got fired in Tampa Bay because ownership thought he couldn't get them into and to win a SB.

[riftastic28]

Fire him .. Grison too

[Dark Superman]

Are you reading straight from the all cliche handbook?

And what statement do you want them to make?

Can only the offense make amaze this statement or can the defense do it as well?

I just want us to come out and out up points early. It would be nice to have a lead for once instead of trailing from behind. You give Brady and Manning a lead and forget about it. We aren't playing Fitzpatrick and Brian Hoyer

[colts8718]

yes still had manning for 4 years. if they had not wanted luck manning never left.

?

[colts8718]

There is no reasoning with you so I will let it go. Now you sound like a Patriot fan.

LOL  come on I expect more from you have a nice holiday GO COLTS 

[Dark Superman]

Ok, I guess making 3 NFC Championships and a Super Bowl in 3 years means nothing. Lets be a one and done playoff team though as long as the players love Pagano. We'll lose, but we'll all be happy.

Pagano doesn't call the plays, block and catch passes.

It's not all on him. I'm not against firing him, but we were a completely rebuilding team when he came in.. Jim Harbaugh already had a SB roster. Three playoff berths on a completely retooled team is pretty much unheard of and I doubt Harbaugh could have done better with this franchise.

And Harbaugh still has zero rings..

[Dark Superman]

Yes, and the best players should be starting.  That means Boom should be in and TR out.  So tired of seeing TR waste our 1st couple of downs.  This is just one example of the stubbornness of Pags/Pep, don't even want to discuss the Satele issue.  Everyone on the planet can see that Boom offers so much more running the ball.  

 

TR is a flat out bust and I was irritated to no end when I heard about the trade for him.  He has no vision and no burst.  He may be passable as a pass blocker, but that is not worth throwing away a 1st round pick.  Griggs worst move to this point.

Hopefully we can unleash the boom come playoff time.

[crazycolt1]

Heck it took until Manning's sixth year just to win a playoff game, something this group accomplished in their second attempt at it.  The honest truth was when this team was 2-14 and they hit the self-destruct button most people said it would take three years just to be competitive again.  Had anyone said then that the Colts would make the playoffs the following three years and win the division the last two years of it that person would have been laughed off this forum and labeled a homer quicker than TY Hilton burns the Texans.  Had we been given that choice people would have signed up for it in a heart beat. 

 

Flash forward three years and now the team is wasting Luck and company...  I don't think they are wasting them I think they are ahead of the schedule they were brought in to be on.  They are gaining Luck and the other young players on this roster invaluable experience that will benefit them as they come into the prime of their careers which Luck and company have not hit yet.  They are still learning and growing and the fact they already have so much post-season experience and learning early what it takes to win will only help them down the line.  For most teams in the NFL you have to learn to win, yes once in a while you'll see a team catch lighting in a bottle and just go on a run, but for most it's a process.  The Colts are already light years ahead of where they were supposed to be in that process.

 

Yet because they aren't perfect people want to fire the coach.  Stop and think about 2011 and where you honestly thought this team would be by 2014 and where they actually are and all of the sudden you gain a whole new respect for the job Pagano and Grigson have done. 

Well said. I know it is tough to see and go through the process of rebuilding but the constant negative mind set does not change anything. For some strange reason we all think we are head coaches, GMs and anyone else that comes to mind. We all can advise, wish or say what we think should be happening but in all honesty we are not wearing the shoes of those mentioned. They see tape and the daily activity of the players while we see game day. IMO they are much more qualified to do what they do than any of us.

[schwamm]

yes still had manning for 4 years. if they had not wanted luck manning never left.

This old faulty logic?

Problem is, if Manning is still here, there is no money for any of RHF, DQ, Gosder, Walden, Toler, Gordy, Haselbeck, Bradshaw... Probably couldn't even have afforded the likes of Zibby, Satele, McGlynn, McKinney, Mew Moore, etc.

They would have had to ask you and me to suit up, with a Jimmy Johns sandwich for compensation.

Not sure it had as much to do with Luck as you think.

[Superman]

This old faulty logic?

Problem is, if Manning is still here, there is no money for any of RHF, DQ, Gosder, Walden, Toler, Gordy, Haselbeck, Bradshaw... Probably couldn't even have afforded the likes of Zibby, Satele, McGlynn, McKinney, Mew Moore, etc.

They would have had to ask you and me to suit up, with a Jimmy Johns sandwich for compensation.

Not sure it had as much to do with Luck as you think.

Would have been different for sure, but Irsay has suggested that if we didn't have one of the top two picks, he'd have kept Manning. It's impossible to know for sure, of course.

[GoColts8818]

Dungy got fired in Tampa Bay because ownership thought he couldn't get them into and to win a SB.

and long term results how did that work out for them?  Yes I know Gruden won a Super Bowl there but he did it the year after with Dungy's players but since then the Bucs regressed back to the Bucs they were before Dungy got there and they have are now bringing in a guy off the Tony Dungy tree to take them back to where Dungy had them.  Meanwhile Dungy came here and built a team that won more games in a decade than any other team in NFL history. 

[Coffeedrinker]

I suggest you rewatch the tape with Shipley and Holmes in, instant improvement on the O-Line. There's a reason Luck has turnovers and it's because of the useless bodies on the right side of the O-Line. Part of it may be Luck, but Harrison and Thornton/Louis wouldn't start on most teams. I like Reitz, but he's hurt right now unfortunately. Also remember, just because a coach likes a starter doesn't mean his backup isn't better. We all know Pagano's "loyalty" issues. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. I have a hard time trusting Pagano on any decision anymore when he starts players that obviously should be sitting.

I disagree with a lot of what you're saying.  I don't think Pagano is a great coach by any stretch of the imagination, but he is the right coach for a team rebuilding.  But I wanted to point out the bolded part of the quote.... you realize, don't you, you have the saying completely backwards?  I don't know why but I found your version extremely funny.

[John Dee]

I can recall an interview with Irsay saying that Luck was the ONLY player that would make the team release Manning.   And if Indy had kept him this team would look very different, and I doubt it would be nearly as competitive.   PM seen this also.   I really believe the parting was far more mutual than reported.

 

It was just the smart play, to draft Luck and release PM.    Unpopular but... .   in 5 years people in INDY will not even care. 

 

And as far as Chuck, I think the ONLY way you do something is IF Jim Harbaugh is the target and is interested.    

 

I would do that, but Chuck in no way deserves to just get fired, just to fire him.   I think JimH is top 5 coach in the NFL,  if that is a possibility then one would be silly to not kick the tires.   

 

JMO..    and lately it is sounding like Jimmy is going to Michigan so...  

Would have been different for sure, but Irsay has suggested that if we didn't have one of the top two picks, he'd have kept Manning. It's impossible to know for sure, of course.

[John Dee]

Exactly...   Gruden gravy trained Dungy's team...      His Buc's did not win one playoff game in only 2 tries out of 6 AFTER the SB run.     He was below average after the SB run.   

 

His career record is 95 - 81       Dungy's is 139 - 69.    And turned around 2 of the moist losing franchises in the NFL at the time.    Tampa blew it canning Tony. 

 

and long term results how did that work out for them?  Yes I know Gruden won a Super Bowl there but he did it the year after with Dungy's players but since then the Bucs regressed back to the Bucs they were before Dungy got there and they have are now bringing in a guy off the Tony Dungy tree to take them back to where Dungy had them.  Meanwhile Dungy came here and built a team that won more games in a decade than any other team in NFL history. 

[dw49]

This old faulty logic?

Problem is, if Manning is still here, there is no money for any of RHF, DQ, Gosder, Walden, Toler, Gordy, Haselbeck, Bradshaw... Probably couldn't even have afforded the likes of Zibby, Satele, McGlynn, McKinney, Mew Moore, etc.

They would have had to ask you and me to suit up, with a Jimmy Johns sandwich for compensation.

Not sure it had as much to do with Luck as you think.

 

 

There were a lot of other contracts that were dumped that resulted in that 1 year of cap hell. Not just Manning's. I think you have way overstated the difference between Luck and Mannings cap hit. This year for instance .. it's about 11 million. That would be the cost of RJF and Aurther Jones 2014 cap hit.

 

Also you would have added even more then the three #1's and the # 2 the Rams received for the pick below the one the Colts held. That said , IMO, Irsay still made the correct decision. But it's just not true to say we would have a weak roster due to Manning's contract. 

[John Dee]

 It would have been a lot weaker..          I'm not even going to begin to think about that era but it was debated BEYOND ridiculous.   And the consensus was and IS that Indy was far better off doing wihat they did.

 

Hand Indy kept Manning they would have owed him a 28m dollar (roster?) bonus...      and that would go on future years right off the top.    Had Luck not been there Indy would have done it....    but.... 

There were a lot of other contracts that were dumped that resulted in that 1 year of cap hell. Not just Manning's. I think you have way overstated the difference between Luck and Mannings cap hit. This year for instance .. it's about 11 million. That would be the cost of RJF and Aurther Jones 2014 cap hit.

 

Also you would have added even more then the three #1's and the # 2 the Rams received for the pick below the one the Colts held. That said , IMO, Irsay still made the correct decision. But it's just not true to say we would have a weak roster due to Manning's contract. 

[CanuckColt]

Coach Chuck is who he is...not great, not terrible...somewhere in the middle.

[dw49]

 It would have been a lot weaker..          I'm not even going to begin to think about that era but it was debated BEYOND ridiculous.   And the consensus was and IS that Indy was far better off doing wihat they did.

 

Hand Indy kept Manning they would have owed him a 28m dollar (roster?) bonus...      and that would go on future years right off the top.    Had Luck not been there Indy would have done it....    but.... 

 

 

I never said we did the wrong thing. In fact I said we did the right thing. But you guys are just a little off discussing where we would have been. The first year would have been been difficult and we may have had to let a good player go. We were paying the price for some bloated Polian contracts that had wound down. But after 2012 we would have been fine. The 27 mill would have been turned into another signing bound and Manning's cap hit would be pretty much the same as it is with Denver... 17.5 to 19.. As you can see , they just extended their CB and before that signed a good amount of very costly free agents. Why do you guys think Mannings contract with the Colts would destroy the team ? I don't get it . All the top teams other than Seattle have QB's with big cap numbers.  I mean Brady's is 14.8 and Mannings is 17.5. Rodgers 17.5 Rothlesburger 19 Romo is like 12 this year but goes to over 20 next year on.  Plus as I said before , we would have had a multitude of draft picks. 

[John Dee]

BAVALAN ..    help..    heeheee

[dw49]

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. It made no sense for the Colts or Manning for him to stay. 2012 there was little cap space. 2013 would be the first year of the rebuild , so pretty unlikely that team goes to a SB. If everything went perfectly , with the cap space and extra draft picks , maybe a Manning led Colt team could contend this year. I tend to doubt it as Denver has 2 freaks and a stud catching Manning throws. Seems like a perfect fit for him as his arm is getting a little weak.  So , IMO , it was the right move for both sides. I'm just taking issue with those that say our roster would be weak if Manning had stayed.

[Larry Horseman]

 

 

You've been doing good work in this thread. Keep chipping away...need to bring this board back to balance. I'm starting to feel like Brad Wells has taken over every poster.

 

I also wanted to point out that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest Pagano or Grigson should be fired. If the team hasn't taken a clear step forward by year 5, or regresses in years 4 and 5, then yes, there should be a serious conversation about the FO and Coaching staff. That said, I don't love everything about Pagano, particuarly some of the more technical coaching aspects, but his ability to lead a locker room and keep it united under adversity is one of the biggest traits a NFL coach needs. This is clearly something Jim Harbaugh lacks...I could never see the Colts going on a slide under Pagano like the 49ers did this year under Harbaugh

 

If the Colts win one more game this year, Pagano will be the first coach in NFL history to have 11 wins in his first three seasons as a head coach--you don't fire someone for that. 

[Superman]

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. It made no sense for the Colts or Manning for him to stay. 2012 there was little cap space. 2013 would be the first year of the rebuild , so pretty unlikely that team goes to a SB. If everything went perfectly , with the cap space and extra draft picks , maybe a Manning led Colt team could contend this year. I tend to doubt it as Denver has 2 freaks and a stud catching Manning throws. Seems like a perfect fit for him as his arm is getting a little weak. So , IMO , it was the right move for both sides. I'm just taking issue with those that say our roster would be weak if Manning had stayed.

It's not my position that the team would have been bad. But it would have been very different. The biggest beef I have with Grigson in 2012 is keeping Freeney. I would think that might have gone differently if Manning's contract was still on the books, and then that would have offset Manning's cap hit. But beyond 2012, the cap would still have been tight. The extra picks would have been a major help. There's a possibility that Caldwell would have stayed, with Spagnuolo as the DC. It's kind of an alternate reality. I think the way we did it is the best way, obviously.

[BOTT]

and long term results how did that work out for them?  Yes I know Gruden won a Super Bowl there but he did it the year after with Dungy's players but since then the Bucs regressed back to the Bucs they were before Dungy got there and they have are now bringing in a guy off the Tony Dungy tree to take them back to where Dungy had them.  Meanwhile Dungy came here and built a team that won more games in a decade than any other team in NFL history.

By that logic Dungy won with Sam Wyche's players in TB and Jim Mora's in Indy. Dungy didn't build either team.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

You've been doing good work in this thread. Keep chipping away...need to bring this board back to balance. I'm starting to feel like Brad Wells has taken over every poster.

 

I also wanted to point out that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest Pagano or Grigson should be fired. If the team hasn't taken a clear step forward by year 5, or regresses in years 4 and 5, then yes, there should be a serious conversation about the FO and Coaching staff. That said, I don't love everything about Pagano, particuarly some of the more technical coaching aspects, but his ability to lead a locker room and keep it united under adversity is one of the biggest traits a NFL coach needs. This is clearly something Jim Harbaugh lacks...I could never see the Colts going on a slide under Pagano like the 49ers did this year under Harbaugh

 

If the Colts win one more game this year, Pagano will be the first coach in NFL history to have 11 wins in his first three seasons as a head coach--you don't fire someone for that. 

 

Harbaugh, IMO, has really lacked the ability to adjust, especially on offense.  Kaepernick's coach at U. Nevada (Chris Ault) invented the 'pistol spread' offense and when the Niner's first used it in the NFL, no teams had seen it, Kaepernick was more familiar with it than anybody, and it worked very well.  After seeing this offense for a couple of seasons, D-coordinators have figured out how to stop it and (IMO) Kaepernick is not an elite QB in this league -- he is a good athlete, but like an article I just read about Manziel says -- "The only athletic QB's that survive in this league are the ones that learn to thrive in the pocket" (or something along those lines).  Kaepernick has not been coached or taught how to live in the pocket and it is killing the Niners this year because d-coordinators and coaches around the league have figured out how to stop the spread.

 

We saw similar things a few years ago when several teams had early success with 'wild cat' formations, which were previously very rare in the NFL and not something NFL d-coordinators were used to dealing with at this level.  I don't remember the last time I've seen a 'wild cat', and am pretty sure no teams in the NFL run that frequently anymore because it has become archaic and basically useless in the NFL.

 

To Harbaugh's credit, he put the pistol spread in place when Kaepernick was young and because he was so comfortable with it (and because it had not been seen in the NFL before), Kaepernick was able to have success early in his career.  Harbaugh's downfall is he has never adjusted or tried to coach Kaepernick to win from the pocket and he is simply not good enough to excel in this league since defenses have figured out how to stop that system.  With Frank Gore, Anquain Boldin, Michael Crabtree, Vernon Davis, Stevie Johnson and a pretty good o-line, there is no reason that offense should not be a top 5 offense in this league other than the fact they have not made adjustments when other teams have.

 

Luck learned a lot under Arians by pretty much getting thrown into the fire during year 1 (I have a feeling Luck has quite a bit more mental capacity than Kaepernick, and most other young QBs in this league for that matter, so he was able to survive a new system and do well).  I give Grigs/Pagano a lot of credit for bringing in Pep to replace Arians.  This allowed Luck to get into a comfort zone last year and (IMO) Pep has been doing a good job at adding wrinkles into the system and making adjustments to improve/complexify it as Luck continues to mature.  Our OL play has been poor lately, and that has been our biggest downfall (along with injuries to RBs and less-than-expected production from T Rich).  I truly believe, if we give Pep (and more importantly, Andrew) an OL, that this offense will continue to improve and Andrew will probably have a much longer career by taking fewer hits and being able to run a more balanced attack.

 

There is a good chance we will lose Pep to a head coaching job sometime in the not-so-distant future, but I believe Andrew has matured enough that by placing Chudzinski or another assistant at OC we will be able to run a similar or slightly modified version of this offense while continuing to add new wrinkles and letting Andrew take full grip of the wheel.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

By that logic Dungy won with Sam Wyche's players in TB and Jim Mora's in Indy. Dungy didn't build either team.

 

No, not really.  Dungy installed the Tampa 2 (which was a very slightly modified version of the Steel Curtain defense he played in under Chuck Noll in the 1970's) in Tampa Bay and made that defense famous and widespread in the NFL.  Dungy built one of the most dominant defenses in recent history with that defense and it was employed under Gruden when they won their Super Bowl.

 

Dungy totally changed the system when he took over in TB and he totally changed it again when he took over in Indy.  It took Dungy 4-5 years to make that Tampa defense dominant and Gruden won the Super Bowl the year after Dungy left.  It took Dungy 6 years in Indy to win a super bowl, so it's not like he inherited gold from Mora and cashed in on it.  He changed our system entirely and built us into the winningest team of the decade -- Gruden inherited Dungy's system (and d-coordinator Monte Kiffin) and succeeded early on in Tampa Bay and then quickly faded out of glory as a head coach (following the super bowl win Gruden led the Bucs to 7-9 and 5-11 seasons).

[Larry Horseman]

Harbaugh, IMO, has really lacked the ability to adjust, especially on offense.  Kaepernick's coach at U. Nevada (Chris Ault) invented the 'pistol spread' offense and when the Niner's first used it in the NFL, no teams had seen it, Kaepernick was more familiar with it than anybody, and it worked very well.  After seeing this offense for a couple of seasons, D-coordinators have figured out how to stop it and (IMO) Kaepernick is not an elite QB in this league -- he is a good athlete, but like an article I just read about Manziel says -- "The only athletic QB's that survive in this league are the ones that learn to thrive in the pocket" (or something along those lines).  Kaepernick has not been coached or taught how to live in the pocket and it is killing the Niners this year because d-coordinators and coaches around the league have figured out how to stop the spread.

 

We saw similar things a few years ago when several teams had early success with 'wild cat' formations, which were previously very rare in the NFL and not something NFL d-coordinators were used to dealing with at this level.  I don't remember the last time I've seen a 'wild cat', and am pretty sure no teams in the NFL run that frequently anymore because it has become archaic and basically useless in the NFL.

 

To Harbaugh's credit, he put the pistol spread in place when Kaepernick was young and because he was so comfortable with it (and because it had not been seen in the NFL before), Kaepernick was able to have success early in his career.  Harbaugh's downfall is he has never adjusted or tried to coach Kaepernick to win from the pocket and he is simply not good enough to excel in this league since defenses have figured out how to stop that system.  With Frank Gore, Anquain Boldin, Michael Crabtree, Vernon Davis, Stevie Johnson and a pretty good o-line, there is no reason that offense should not be a top 5 offense in this league other than the fact they have not made adjustments when other teams have.

 

Luck learned a lot under Arians by pretty much getting thrown into the fire during year 1 (I have a feeling Luck has quite a bit more mental capacity than Kaepernick, and most other young QBs in this league for that matter, so he was able to survive a new system and do well).  I give Grigs/Pagano a lot of credit for bringing in Pep to replace Arians.  This allowed Luck to get into a comfort zone last year and (IMO) Pep has been doing a good job at adding wrinkles into the system and making adjustments to improve/complexify it as Luck continues to mature.  Our OL play has been poor lately, and that has been our biggest downfall (along with injuries to RBs and less-than-expected production from T Rich).  I truly believe, if we give Pep (and more importantly, Andrew) an OL, that this offense will continue to improve and Andrew will probably have a much longer career by taking fewer hits and being able to run a more balanced attack.

 

There is a good chance we will lose Pep to a head coaching job sometime in the not-so-distant future, but I believe Andrew has matured enough that by placing Chudzinski or another assistant at OC we will be able to run a similar or slightly modified version of this offense while continuing to add new wrinkles and letting Andrew take full grip of the wheel.

 

Interesting argument about Harbaugh. I always felt he was a strong Xs and Os coach, but I agree there has been an inability to develop Kaep/the offense. Also, if you believe all the chatter, the locker room is not united, which compounds the offensive issues/question marks about Harbaugh. 

 

Everything else you said is pretty spot on. I even think the OL talk is short sighted--sure they are struggling but minus GC, there is some young talent that just needs experience to get better. The Pep HC cloud will keep getting darker--I'm not sure how I feel about Chud being automatically handed the keys, but I'm hoping we get at least two more years until Pep takes a gig. I only think the offense will continue to evolve as everyone gets more experience in it. It's a complex O with a particularly a steep learning curve for WRs. The SB window is opening, and I really wish Pep would hold off until the Colts get them one...pretty confident it will happen in the next 5 years. 

[BOTT]

No, not really. Dungy installed the Tampa 2 (which was a very slightly modified version of the Steel Curtain defense he played in under Chuck Noll in the 1970's) in Tampa Bay and made that defense famous and widespread in the NFL. Dungy built one of the most dominant defenses in recent history with that defense and it was employed under Gruden when they won their Super Bowl.

Dungy totally changed the system when he took over in TB and he totally changed it again when he took over in Indy. It took Dungy 4-5 years to make that Tampa defense dominant and Gruden won the Super Bowl the year after Dungy left. It took Dungy 6 years in Indy to win a super bowl, so it's not like he inherited gold from Mora and cashed in on it. He changed our system entirely and built us into the winningest team of the decade -- Gruden inherited Dungy's system (and d-coordinator Monte Kiffin) and succeeded early on in Tampa Bay and then quickly faded out of glory as a head coach (following the super bowl win Gruden led the Bucs to 7-9 and 5-11 seasons).

He won in Tampa because he had players like Sapp, Brooks, Lynch and Nickerson.....none of which he drafted.....Wyche did.

Yes, he changed the defensive system in Indy....and the results were mediocre. Indy did most of the winning because of Manning, Harrison, Glenn, Tom Moore, etc.

Not saying Dungy is a bad coach, but people love to act like Gruden was just lucky. He was pretty successful in dysfunctional Oakland before he went to Tampa.

And you could have spared me the history lesson. This is a colts forum, everyone knows the history of the Tampa 2.

[John Dee]

When has Tampa Bay been relevant outside of the Dungy era plus one Gruden year....???

 

Tony's record speaks for itself..        and at TB and INDY...     

 

Dungy is a HOF coach and Gruden....     mehhhh      a soft announcer..      oh well..

[DougDew]

It's not my position that the team would have been bad. But it would have been very different. The biggest beef I have with Grigson in 2012 is keeping Freeney. I would think that might have gone differently if Manning's contract was still on the books, and then that would have offset Manning's cap hit. But beyond 2012, the cap would still have been tight. The extra picks would have been a major help. There's a possibility that Caldwell would have stayed, with Spagnuolo as the DC. It's kind of an alternate reality. I think the way we did it is the best way, obviously.

Agreed.  At the time of Manning's departure, it realy wasn't his contract that was the issue, it was the contract's of Dallas Clark, Brackett, Bullett, and others.  The Colts dumped those players, and in doing so, could've afforded Manning.  The lingering problem was the Freeney contract, and there was no way the Colts could've kept Manning and Freeney.

 

The alternative reality is that the Colts would now be sitting with an aged Manning, and probably a bunch of decent young players in their rookie contracts coming from the Luck traded draft picks.  Also, the idea of keeping Manning probably would've have fed the desire to give him one more shot at a SB (why else keep him?), so the strategy would've been to load up on some aging vet FA and back load their contracts.

 

If that happened, now the Colts would have several more good young players, but also no QB and some back-loaded salary cap problems (and likely no SB in the interim).  I like the actual reality better than the alternative reality.  Three years removed from Manning, the Colts are in a better position to win championships in the next few years than the alternative, with both realities probably not really producing many more wins than the other during the past three years.

[dw49]

It's not my position that the team would have been bad. But it would have been very different. The biggest beef I have with Grigson in 2012 is keeping Freeney. I would think that might have gone differently if Manning's contract was still on the books, and then that would have offset Manning's cap hit. But beyond 2012, the cap would still have been tight. The extra picks would have been a major help. There's a possibility that Caldwell would have stayed, with Spagnuolo as the DC. It's kind of an alternate reality. I think the way we did it is the best way, obviously.

 

 

I think they kept Freeney for all the wrong reasons. Pure conjecture on my part but I believe they digit to both appease the fan base and to be a "touch" more competitive. I realize that with his contract , it was tough to trade him but he had no value to a rebuilding team. 

[Superman]

I think they kept Freeney for all the wrong reasons. Pure conjecture on my part but I believe they digit to both appease the fan base and to be a "touch" more competitive. I realize that with his contract , it was tough to trade him but he had no value to a rebuilding team.

Maybe. Bad idea to pay a guy $14m for the sake of public relations. Especially when you just cut Manning and the other long time Colts. Everybody was already freaking out, might as well have ripped the Band-Aid off all the way. And in hindsight, the ROI wasn't close to what it needed to be. Wound up being a waste of cap space, even if we didn't use it in 2012. Oh well...

[ColtsFanMikeC]

He won in Tampa because he had players like Sapp, Brooks, Lynch and Nickerson.....none of which he drafted.....Wyche did.

Yes, he changed the defensive system in Indy....and the results were mediocre. Indy did most of the winning because of Manning, Harrison, Glenn, Tom Moore, etc.

Not saying Dungy is a bad coach, but people love to act like Gruden was just lucky. He was pretty successful in dysfunctional Oakland before he went to Tampa.

And you could have spared me the history lesson. This is a colts forum, everyone knows the history of the Tampa 2.

 

Dungy built a very good D to compliment that offense given limited resources and spending for the D.   The player, IMO, who owes the most to Peyton Manning is Dwight Freeney  -- he would not have had nearly the career on just about any other team in that era as he was atrocious vs. the run, but given our offensive firepower he was able to focus almost solely on rushing the opposing  QB.  Dungy took what we had on D and made it a strength -- if we didn't have the offense we did or Dungy's system, I don't think there is any chance Freeney or Mathis (both very undersized DL) are over 100 sacks in their career.

 

Wyche drafted Sapp and Brooks in 1995 and Lynch in 1993 (Lynch had 10 tackles, 16 tackles and 38 tackles before Dungy took over when he jumped to 100 tackles) -- Dungy took over in 1996 and redid the defense in 1996 and groomed those players to be the HOFers they became before handing them to Gruden.

[BOTT]

Dungy built a very good D to compliment that offense given limited resources and spending for the D.   The player, IMO, who owes the most to Peyton Manning is Dwight Freeney  -- he would not have had nearly the career on just about any other team in that era as he was atrocious vs. the run, but given our offensive firepower he was able to focus almost solely on rushing the opposing  QB.  Dungy took what we had on D and made it a strength -- if we didn't have the offense we did or Dungy's system, I don't think there is any chance Freeney or Mathis (both very undersized DL) are over 100 sacks in their career.

 

Wyche drafted Sapp and Brooks in 1995 and Lynch in 1993 (Lynch had 10 tackles, 16 tackles and 38 tackles before Dungy took over when he jumped to 100 tackles) -- Dungy took over in 1996 and redid the defense in 1996 and groomed those players to be the HOFers they became before handing them to Gruden.

After reading your first sentence I will agree to disagree

[dw49]

Maybe. Bad idea to pay a guy $14m for the sake of public relations. Especially when you just cut Manning and the other long time Colts. Everybody was already freaking out, might as well have ripped the Band-Aid off all the way. And in hindsight, the ROI wasn't close to what it needed to be. Wound up being a waste of cap space, even if we didn't use it in 2012. Oh well...

 

 

I think that ankle injury he had early really lingered but in any event he really did have a bad year. Played much better with SD the following year before that injury.

[Superman]

I think that ankle injury he had early really lingered but in any event he really did have a bad year. Played much better with SD the following year before that injury.

 

Fair point. Might have been better if he was 100%. Still, I never thought we'd keep him with that cap hit.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

After reading your first sentence I will agree to disagree

 

OK -- that team was built around Peyton and with the money going to him and the offensive weapons we had very little cap space to put a lot of superstars on defense -- Freeney was our only real 'big money' defender.  Maybe I should have not said 'very good', but you have to credit Dungy for building a D that complimented our O.  We were built to score fast and frequently and to pressure and hit the opposing QB by making him throw (because we had a lead).  This is why Freeney and Mathis, the 2 most undersized DL of that era, both have over 100 sacks.  If our offense faltered, our D was not good against the run, but we were the most winningest team of any decade in history because our offense rarely faltered and our D complimented them by excelling at rushing the passer (we were truly a team built to play on turf and we were built around Peyton for sure -- but our D was complimentary to our offense about 3/4 of the time during the Dungy days).

[BOTT]

OK -- that team was built around Peyton and with the money going to him and the offensive weapons we had very little cap space to put a lot of superstars on defense -- Freeney was our only real 'big money' defender.  Maybe I should have not said 'very good', but you have to credit Dungy for building a D that complimented our O.  We were built to score fast and frequently and to pressure and hit the opposing QB by making him throw (because we had a lead).  This is why Freeney and Mathis, the 2 most undersized DL of that era, both have over 100 sacks.  If our offense faltered, our D was not good against the run, but we were the most winningest team of any decade in history because our offense rarely faltered and our D complimented them by excelling at rushing the passer (we were truly a team built to play on turf and we were built around Peyton for sure -- but our D was complimentary to our offense about 3/4 of the time during the Dungy days).

Don't think you get the jist of agreeing to disagree lol

[dw49]

Fair point. Might have been better if he was 100%. Still, I never thought we'd keep him with that cap hit.

 

 

Neither did I . Seems would have been far more prudent to use that money on O line help to protect the rookie QB.