New information in Martin/Incognito saga.

[SkyBane]

You present that brief as if it's comprehensive, ignoring all the questions that have been raised over the past week.

To me, the chief question is why Martin waited six months to file a report about this. If the messages are six months old, and he was reportedly sharing them in the lockerroom and paling around with Incognito since then, what was the recent catalyst that caused him to leave the team and check himself into the hospital?

I made a post about this earlier in the thread. Martin's agent contacted the Dolphin's GM Jeff Ireland about it, and Ireland said if it was a problem, Martin should just punch Incognito.

[Valpo2004]

There was a guy named Quin Pitcock who decided playing Video games was more important than playing football......

What team did he play for???

 

I wasn't paying close attention to the Colts at that time, but I wikipedia'ed him.

 

Still that's not quite the same.  It sounds like he played one season and called it quits while Martin got up and left the team in the middle of the season.

[jvan1973]

oh yeah...

well it was a Bad Day for Colts fans when you realize your third round draft pick is more interested in playing Call of Duty than showing up for practice...

Wouldn't it be ironic if he was addicted to Madden?

[BOTT]

I made a post about this earlier in the thread. Martin's agent contacted the Dolphin's GM Jeff Ireland about it, and Ireland said if it was a problem, Martin should just punch Incognito.

Ireland doesn't have a good rep, but I would bet that a lot of football people would respond in a similar way. I think people need to stop equating an locker room with their workplace. That just isn't realistic. You stick 50+ plus guys with high testosterone, who play of a violent sport for a living, in locker room...well, that can't be compared to some accounting firm.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Ireland doesn't have a good rep, but I would bet that a lot of football people would respond in a similar way. I think people need to stop equating an locker room with their workplace. That just isn't realistic. You stick 50+ plus guys with high testosterone, who play of a violent sport for a living, in locker room...well, that can't be compared to some accounting firm.

 

Understood.  but every environment has a line in the sand.  Different places for different fields.  NFL lines are drawn out a lot further, but every citizen is afforded the rights provided by the Constitution and laws of the land.  If any of those are violated, it matters not where people think the line should be drawn. The court system will take over that decision. So it appears this may be beyond that line, or at minimum worth investigating if something is.  It appears all of the testosterone driven jocularity was mainly directed toward one individual; not in manner to build camaraderie but belittle and demean. At least Martin didn't feel it was all in a joking way and about to end and be over with or he wouldn't have quit.  He really didn't want to snitch either, but he has to answer the question why he left the team without warning.  That is why the trickling in of the info. Nobody wanted to explain in detail, so the media decided to grab shovels and start digging.  Just saying he was placed on non-football injured status wasn't cutting it.  So everyone is digging in making statements and trying to protect their interests.  But investigators like Wells can find ways to the truth.And, he will.  And some new locker room precedent might be put in place too. At least enough to ensure nobody's rights can be abused.

[Dustin]

This just gets stranger:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/07/david-cornwells-statement-regarding-jonathan-martin/

[SkyBane]

This just gets stranger:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/07/david-cornwells-statement-regarding-jonathan-martin/

So Martin lawyered up, eh? That was only a matter of time with the way the Dolphins were fighting back to discredit the accusations.

[BOTT]

So Martin lawyered up, eh? That was only a matter of time with the way the Dolphins were fighting back to discredit the accusations.

The dolphins organization has been pretty mum the last few days. After hearing seeing the interviews don't buy that hartline and tannehill were put up to it. Hartline seemed genuinely annoyed.

[TheBlueAndWhite]

So Martin lawyered up, eh? That was only a matter of time with the way the Dolphins were fighting back to discredit the accusations.

I'm suprised he could afford to

[SkyBane]

I'm suprised he could afford to

Both his parents are Harvard law school grads, and he has a degree from Stanford.

I get the joke you tried to make, however. It wasnt funny.

[TheBlueAndWhite]

Both his parents are Harvard law school grads, and he has a degree from Stanford.

I get the joke you tried to make, however. It wasnt funny.

well to each their own I guess:)

[Warhorse]

Agree with a lot of what others have said.  The bottom line is, the media took this story and ran with it.  There's always going to be some middle ground.  I tend to side with Martin here, but if my assumption is proven false and instead, this is something that he fostered, I've got no sympathy for him.  Incognito's words, while detestable to me, is different within a group of people who find it's usage wholly acceptable.  I think its hypocritical for black people to use it freely and then condemn the use of it by others, even if used as a synonym for "dude."  But it's equally hypocritical to give off the indication that it's okay to be called the N word by the group and then, when it suits your agenda, call the man a racist.

 

Now, the whole reporting it and standing up for himself, I've maintained that he let this go on too long.  And it is very possible that he felt standing up for himself would have ostracized him from the team.  If true, the Dolphins organization failed him in making him feel like he couldn't speak his mind.  But he really hurts his case by participating in the same type of bullying that caused him to storm out.  I dunno, there's just WAY too many things we don't know..and we'll probably never know to tie the bow on this story.  What happens in the locker room stays in the locker room.  And even if something is made public, some things will remain hidden.

 

But you can probably bet that Incognito, and probably Martin's career with the Dolphins is over. 

This is as close to my opinion as I have read. Time will tell us more, hopefully give us a clearer picture. I feel sorry for anyone connected to this that are being dragged through this but truly did not have an idea this was going on.

[shecolt]

I was just reading about Incognito's alleged sexual harassment of a female worker at a golf outing.

 

If that's true, this guy is one sick dude.

 

And, I'm sick of reading those who want to put more of the blame on Martin. 

[GoColts8818]

I am sure everything Martin isn't saying is 100% true but there is so much stuff that has come out about Incognito it's safe to say he's just a bad dude even if he didn't do everything to Martin that has been said he did. 

[Buck Showalter]

I wasn't paying close attention to the Colts at that time, but I wikipedia'ed him.

 

Still that's not quite the same.  It sounds like he played one season and called it quits while Martin got up and left the team in the middle of the season.

Colts also had to deal with the Cory Simon ordeal...

Man that was frustrating at the time...

[smittywerb]

Heard Martin partook in stealing a rookie's car?  Is this true?

[jvan1973]

Heard Martin partook in stealing a rookie's car? Is this true?

That's pretty customary

[OffensivelyPC]

This is as close to my opinion as I have read. Time will tell us more, hopefully give us a clearer picture. I feel sorry for anyone connected to this that are being dragged through this but truly did not have an idea this was going on.

Agree.  While it's fair to blame the whole organization, you necessarily have to blame everyone in it on some level, and that is inherently unfair to the people who didn't know that there was anything going on.  One of those "unfair justice" moments in life. 

[BOTT]

Heard Martin partook in stealing a rookie's car?  Is this true?

[SkyBane]

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=9941696

This is an opinion piece on the whole situation, but its the best analysis Ive seen yet. Thought I would share.

[BOTT]

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=9941696

This is an opinion piece on the whole situation, but its the best analysis Ive seen yet. Thought I would share.

I had read the piece prior and thought it was horrible. I find it hard to believe Whitlock has enough info to be making the kind of allegations he is making in that piece.

[Warhorse]

Cam Cleeland knows what it's like to get hazed. Fifteen years ago, he was a rookie with the Saints and he almost lost vision in his eye after being hit with a bag of coins as he made his way through "the gauntlet," an annual rite of passage for newbies.

The recent allegations that Dolphins guard Richie Incognito bullied teammate Jonathan Martin dredged up those memories for Cleeland, who arrived in New Orleans as a 6-5, 270-pound tight end.

"Guys were just rabid," Cleeland told the Los Angeles Times' Sam Farmer. "And you had a couple guys in the front that would stand in a three-point stance, and you would fire off the line like he was going to knock you over.

"You tried to make it through [the gauntlet], and they literally just beat the ever-loving crap out of you as you tried to get through. Everything you can imagine, from kicking, punching, scrapping. I remember my ankle was sore and I had missed two days of practice because I had rolled my ankle."

 

 

Cleeland said he was also punched in the nose, kicked in the leg and hit in the face with a coin-filled sock that has left him with only partial vision in one eye.

The hazing may have never come to light if Cleeland hadn't missed a preseason game.

"All the media saw me standing on the sideline with a black eye," he said. "It was, 'What the hell happened? He wasn't on the injury report.' It probably would have been covered up."

Fifteen years later, Cleeland still has issues with the way the organization handled the matter.

"Coach [Mike] Ditka gave me a speech as soon as it was done," he recalled. "He was like, 'Oh, man, you should have just popped those guys in the mouth.' I said, 'Coach, there were 60 of them.'"

[Dustin]

Incognito would hold oline meetings at strip clubs and would fine players if they didn't show up.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Incognito-held-Oline-meetings-at-strip-club.html

[braveheartcolt]

This chump must be tossed out of the league for good. I bet he wished he was Incognito. Although with Bounty Gate still fresh in the mind, He'll hire a good lawyer and get re-instated without punishment.

 

Sometimes I hate this world.

[SkyBane]

This chump must be tossed out of the league for good. I bet he wished he was Incognito. Although with Bounty Gate still fresh in the mind, He'll hire a good lawyer and get re-instated without punishment.

Sometimes I hate this world.

Nobody wants Incognito. ESPN did an anonymous player poll, and the results showed 80% of NFL players dont want him as a teammate.

[jvan1973]

Nobody wants Incognito. ESPN did an anonymous player poll, and the results showed 80% of NFL players dont want him as a teammate.

If Michael Vick could get back, I'm sure this guy can as well

[smittywerb]

image.jpg

 

 

That's pretty customary

 

 

I'm just saying if you don't like being hazed then don't take part in any hazing.  *shrugs*

 

I mean, if it is true, what if the rookie left camp and wanted to press charges.  Would we all give Martin the same sympathy if he was being charged with felony theft?  

[ColtsBlueFL]

So Martin lawyered up, eh? That was only a matter of time with the way the Dolphins were fighting back to discredit the accusations.

 

Not only lawyered up, but with this guy!

 

http://www.gordonrees.com/lawyers/lawyerBiography.cfm?attyID=dcornwell

 

The Martin camp is serious.

[BOTT]

I'm just saying if you don't like being hazed then don't take part in any hazing.  *shrugs*

 

I mean, if it is true, what if the rookie left camp and wanted to press charges.  Would we all give Martin the same sympathy if he was being charged with felony theft?

There is a difference between a prank and hazing/bullying/ or whatever may be going.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Heard Martin partook in stealing a rookie's car?  Is this true?

 

As part of the nasty gang, it appears so.  Now was he willing, or coerced?  I'm sure David Cornwell and Ted Wells will get Martins side.  Then Richie will put on his halo...   ;)

 

http://www.donthatemiami.com/dolphins/jonathan-martin-implicated-in-stealing-rookie-josh-samudas-rachet-white-impala-on-weak-24s/

[Valpo2004]

There are going to be some big changes when all of this is said and done.  

 

Martin can't go back to play for the Dolphins that is for certain.  He's made their locker room look like a bunch of thugs. 

 

They will likely be forced to trade him.  

[smittywerb]

There is a difference between a prank and hazing/bullying/ or whatever may be going.

 

Stealing a rookie's car because he is a rookie sounds like hazing to me.  Putting labels on things doesn't change the fact it's still hazing.  Technically, isn't pranking a form of hazing?

[Warhorse]

Hazing and rights of passage is executed by those who have not matured yet, in some form. Whether some may want to admit it or not, it is an immature action. 

 

Btw, immaturity exits is full grown adults....even big huge athletic specimens. 

[Valpo2004]

Stealing a rookie's car because he is a rookie sounds like hazing to me.  Putting labels on things doesn't change the fact it's still hazing.  Technically, isn't pranking a form of hazing?

 

Depends I think quite a bit on both the prank and how the individual is targeted.

 

For example Peyton Manning worked out with Eric Decker at I believe North Carolina or Duke a while back and left him a fake invoice making him think for a while that he had to pay for the time he spent training there.  

 

That's a prank but I'd hardly consider that a form of hazing.  

 

1. Eric Decker wasn't singled out because he was a rookie or something like that.  He was singled out mostly because he was there and available to be pranked.

 

2. The prank was entirely harmless other then making Decker for a moment think "What???" and then everyone having a laugh afterwards.  

 

If a prank doesn't single one person or group out to the exclusion of others.  (Eric Decker is hardly the only guy Peyton Manning likes to prank), is harmless, and doesn't make a person feel demeaned then it's not like hazing.  

[Nadine]

Players association weighs in

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9943626/lawyer-david-cornwell-says-jonathan-martin-endured-harassment-taunting

 

 

NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith released a statement Thursday saying he's been in contact with Dolphins players.

"I continue to be in touch with players in Miami, their representatives and player leadership, and I look forward to information that defines the full scope of the NFL's investigation," he said. "Every NFL player should expect safe and professional working conditions. The NFLPA has taken steps to ensure that every one of our affected members is represented. It is our duty as a union to learn the full facts, protect the interests of players involved and hold management accountable to the highest standards of fairness and transparency."

 

 

 

Looks like they are aiming for the NFL.  I guess that's their job

[rock8591]

Wouldn't it be ironic if he was addicted to Madden?

 

LOL I was thinking the same thing. What if Quinn Pitcock was addicted to Madden?

[Malakai432]

Incognito would hold oline meetings at strip clubs and would fine players if they didn't show up.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Incognito-held-Oline-meetings-at-strip-club.html

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmmm?

[Malakai432]

I was just reading about Incognito's alleged sexual harassment of a female worker at a golf outing.

If that's true, this guy is one sick dude.

And, I'm sick of reading those who want to put more of the blame on Martin.

Yeah that's just creepy......... Apparently she didn't file charges or anything though.

[SkyBane]

Yeah that's just creepy......... Apparently she didn't file charges or anything though.

It happens a lot. A company will pay female employees for them to sign non disclosure agreements about events like this, with the check being considered an out of court settlement for duress suffered.

[Malakai432]

It happens a lot. A company will pay female employees for them to sign non disclosure agreements about events like this, with the check being considered an out of court settlement for duress suffered.

Definitely, I figured she was more than likely "paid off."