Probably Overpaid For Tolar ?

[dw49]

Looks like maybe paid a tad too much ? But then again , we haven't seen the details of his contract. I guess he also fits what Pagano is trying to make this defense look like. But it appears the CB market really was a "buyers market " this year. The Colts moved very early on Tolar. It could be they might have spent a liitle less on Tolar or got a little more bang for the buck had they stood back and watched a bit.

 

Here's what I've seen so far..

 

1)  Derek Cox         4 years 20 mill but pretty hefty 10 mill guaranteed

2)  Chris Houston    5 years 25 mill

3)  Rogers Cromarte 1 year 5 mill

 

 

 

Here are a couple articles I found. The 1st about Tolar made me feel a bit better. I guess he had hamstring problems last year and that seemed to account for the low amount of starts. The second is an opinion of what's happening in the CB market.

 

 

 

 

The beginning of free agency started off with the Arizona Cardinalslosing a player they had hoped to keep. Cornerback Greg Toler hit the open market and signed with the Indianapolis Colts. The contract is for a reported three years and $15 million dollars, not bad considering he missed all of 2011 with a torn ACL and his 2012 was limited because of leg injuries, mostly a hamstring, which is very common when coming back from ACL surgery.

It is the second offseason in a row in which a free agent cornerback for the Cardinals finds a big payday elsewhere. Richard Marshall signed a three-year $16 million contract with the Miami Dolphins last offseason.

Arizona tried to re-sign Toler, but was unable to cut a deal before the free agent period began.

They also cut William Gay, so the cornerback position is a little untested. On the roster remains Pro Bowler Patrick Peterson and two second-year players -- Jamell Fleming and Justin Bethel.

Should the Cardinals have tried harder to keep Toler? $5 million per year is a lot for a player that is not the best corner on the team. A year ago, most of us said that it was too much to pay Marshall.

The team is reportedly bringing in former Colts cornerback Jerraud Powers, who also has suffered some injuries over the years.

What say you? It sounds like Arizona did not want to pay him quite that much, or he was hoping to become a top player. Hard to tell.

We will find out soon, and with the draft, what the team plans on doing with the defensive backfield.

 

Keep up with Cardinals news and opinions when you are not on the site. Follow Revenge of the Birds on Twitter at @revengeofbirds and "like" us on Facebook. You can follow me individually at @senorjessroot.

 

 

 

Sean Smith - DB - Dolphins

A source with knowledge of the NFL market tells Profootballtalk.com that "multiple teams" plan to wait for the weekend to push for top-shelf free-agent cornerback Sean Smith.

The teams want to go "bargain shopping" after a slow initial 30 hours on the cornerback market. Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, a top-five free-agent corner, settled for a one-year deal. Chris Houston got an affordable $5 million annually and was a top-seven or eight cornerback. It's fair to wonder if NFL teams are engaging in collusion, avoiding Smith, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, and to a lesser extent Keenan Lewis in order to keep their price tags down.

[loudnproudcolt]

Possibly we did over pay, but I had heard nothing but positives about him, and he is a very physical player! The kind of player Pagano will love!

[Mitch]

Who haven't we "overpaid" for? I'm honestly not as upset about it as most seem to be on this forum, but I understand and I can see that other teams seem to be getting better overall deals than us. Is it because the broncos and 49ers are in "win-now" mode? I don't know...but I think Grigson had a plan and is sticking to it, based on the contracts I've seen it looks like we have just under 20 mil left, which still gives Grigs a lot to work with. Yes there were questionable contract amounts but we won't know if we "overpaid" till we see them play this fall. 

[dw49]

Who haven't we "overpaid" for? I'm honestly not as upset about it as most seem to be on this forum, but I understand and I can see that other teams seem to be getting better overall deals than us. Is it because the broncos and 49ers are in "win-now" mode? I don't know...but I think Grigson had a plan and is sticking to it, based on the contracts I've seen it looks like we have just under 20 mil left, which still gives Grigs a lot to work with. Yes there were questionable contract amounts but we won't know if we "overpaid" till we see them play this fall. 

 

 

I do think most of our contracts other then the big one to Cherlius do have small amounts of guaranteed money. I just read in another thread that Tolar only has 5 mill guaranteed. So I guess we have "bust protection" but maybe we could have received a bit more value for the money. But then again , these guys might have the qualities Pagano wants. Maybe a guy like Cox is more skilled but doesn't fit the mold ? Dunno... just making observations and believe me , I'm not whinning. What Pagano and Grigson did whith the roster and cap room they were handed last year was nothing short of astounding. I respect that and will reserve judgement. 

[Mitch]

I do think most of our contracts other then the big one to Cherlius do have small amounts of guaranteed money. I just read in another thread that Tolar only has 5 mill guaranteed. So I guess we have "bust protection" but maybe we could have received a bit more value for the money. But then again , these guys might have the qualities Pagano wants. Maybe a guy like Cox is more skilled but doesn't fit the mold ? Dunno... just making observations and believe me , I'm not whinning. What Pagano and Grigson did whith the roster and cap room they were handed last year was nothing short of astounding. I respect that and will reserve judgement. 

 

Good to hear, I hadn't seen much about the structure of the contracts, all I've really had a chance to read is $$$/years. I'll have to look at it in the morning. I think these players fit what Pagano/Grigs wants and that's why they were aggressive day 1. They do this for a living and I respect what happened last year as well. I'd like to see a couple more signings like Francois and maybe a WR, but we really won't know how this will work out for a while. 

[BOTT]

Who haven't we "overpaid" for? I'm honestly not as upset about it as most seem to be on this forum, but I understand and I can see that other teams seem to be getting better overall deals than us. Is it because the broncos and 49ers are in "win-now" mode? I don't know...but I think Grigson had a plan and is sticking to it, based on the contracts I've seen it looks like we have just under 20 mil left, which still gives Grigs a lot to work with. Yes there were questionable contract amounts but we won't know if we "overpaid" till we see them play this fall. 

What deals are other teams getting? I see a bunch of horrible deals out there

[arkana04]

What deals are other teams getting? I see a bunch of horrible deals out there

Broncos have done very well 

[Freenyfan102]

So we basically traded our CB who is injury ridden with another over priced CB who is also injury ridden great.

[chrisfarley]

just don't get how we can sign a player like that with a torn ACL?  it spells doomsday for players who hit or get hit often (in most cases).  it's a downward sprial once they get paid and have injuries.... they get lazy and eat Ben and Jerrys and live at the steak-n-shake drive thru. man, this is scarin' me

[throwing BBZ]

another BAD GM thread puke

just call Coach & Griggs da`s

[Dustin]

just don't get how we can sign a player like that with a torn ACL?  it spells doomsday for players who hit or get hit often (in most cases).  it's a downward sprial once they get paid and have injuries.... they get lazy and eat Ben and Jerrys and live at the steak-n-shake drive thru. man, this is scarin' me

 

Who has a torn ACL?

[coltsfanatic24]

Toler is very physical CB and their were other teams who wanted him as well.  A friend of mine who lives in Arizona  said Toler was on his way to being a great #2 CB, describes him as a poor mans Antonio Cromartie.

[FightLikeSin]

Every NFL FA is overpaid in Free Agency. That is just how it is. They go for the asking price of the agent 90% of the time if the team really wants them. 

[theanarchist]

Possibly we did over pay, but I had heard nothing but positives about him, and he is a very physical player! The kind of player Pagano will love!

Ya it was worth a shot. 3 years for 15 is a bit high. But 5 of it being guaranteed isn't that bad. We would have been taking a similar chance on Powers. He was hurt all the time also. Hopefully Toler comes in healthy. Butler's deal was cheap and he can play so I'm ok with with this

[TKnight24]

Toler is very physical CB and their were other teams who wanted him as well. A friend of mine who lives in Arizona said Toler was on his way to being a great #2 CB, describes him as a poor mans Antonio Cromartie.

That's a fair comparison. Toler is not a bad CB by any means. Him & Rodgers-Cromartie were quite the tandem back in Arizona

[Balzer40]

We did not overpay for Toler. He was rated 54th out of the top 100 FA's this yr.. He was rated higher than DRC, Cary Williams, and Keenen Lewis. DRC got the same amount as Toler, Derek Cox got the same amount with an extra yr.. It was market value. I might add, that if we would have given Cox the contract the Chargers gave him, people would have went ape crap mad.

[Gavin]

Toler over Corners that are still FA's such as 

 

1.Deangelo Hall

2.Chris Gamble

3.Brent Grimes

4.Rashean Mathis

5.Keenan Lewis

6.Sam Shields

7.Cary Williams

 

hmm, Hope a couple of our signings come out and have big years for Grigs sake

[Warhawk]

Toler over Corners that are still FA's such as 

 

1.Deangelo Hall

2.Chris Gamble

3.Brent Grimes

4.Rashean Mathis

5.Keenan Lewis

6.Sam Shields

7.Cary Williams

 

hmm, Hope a couple of our signings come out and have big years for Grigs sake

 

I wouldn't touch half of those guys with a 10 foot pole.  Just because you've heard of Hall and Gamble doesn't mean they'd be good signings for us.

[mvbighead]

5mil/season on a 3 year deal is pocket change for a starting CB.  You have seen guys getting 10mil/season over 5, right?  I'd say the short length of the deal will account for the potential for recurring injuries, and the number is pretty solid for a number 2.  If Davis continues to play strong, I could see him getting close to 10mil/season on an extension, but Toler should fit right in as the number 2.

[Mitch]

What deals are other teams getting? I see a bunch of horrible deals out there

 

Vasquez at around 6 mil/yr, DRC-5, Avril at 7.5, Welker at 6(no I didn't want Welker, but that's less than most would think). 

 

We paid a back-up LB 4 mil/yr and every deal we seem to sign is more money than expected, every single one. It's not my money so I really have no right to talk, but I just think it could've been used more wisely on better, more-qualified players like the ones above. I like Thomas/Cherrilus, it just seemed pricey for Cher, especially with those knees...which worries me. Who knows though, I mean this is Executive of the year here, he knows a lot more about negotiations and who to fit our system than me. 

[Balzer40]

Toler over Corners that are still FA's such as 

 

1.Deangelo Hall

2.Chris Gamble

3.Brent Grimes

4.Rashean Mathis

5.Keenan Lewis

6.Sam Shields

7.Cary Williams

 

hmm, Hope a couple of our signings come out and have big years for Grigs sake

 

 

 

Just in case you didn't know, Gamble is retiring. I already posted a link for you yesterday where it showed that Toler was rated higher than Lewis and Williams. Since you're so hung up on ratings, I would think you would like Toler a little better. Tolers best attribute is press coverage, something Hall and Mathis suck at.

[dw49]

another BAD GM thread puke

just call Coach & Griggs da`s

 

 

Not a bad GM puke thread. I was just pointing out that the CB market , unlike last year , is "luke warm." You probably can't remember or have no knowedge of the market last year. If you read my post 1 and 4 , my only two posts , you might be able to see that I was not calling "Coach & Grigson da's" Just pointing out the market and saying that it appears teams are waiting out the CB's in this year's market and the deals that have been done so far are on the cheap side. We jumped right in and signed Tolar and if you match up his cost with other CB's that have signed , some might think it's high when comparing their bodies of work. 

 

Hope that helps as your remark is off base and not very well thought out. When you knock someone , you need to read through everything that person said and then use a little brain power and figure out what that person was saying.

[chad72]

If Welker can go for 2 years, $12 mil., Greg Jennings can go for 3 years, $20 mil. with the Colts, right?

[BOTT]

Vasquez at around 6 mil/yr, DRC-5, Avril at 7.5, Welker at 6(no I didn't want Welker, but that's less than most would think). 

 

We paid a back-up LB 4 mil/yr and every deal we seem to sign is more money than expected, every single one. It's not my money so I really have no right to talk, but I just think it could've been used more wisely on better, more-qualified players like the ones above. I like Thomas/Cherrilus, it just seemed pricey for Cher, especially with those knees...which worries me. Who knows though, I mean this is Executive of the year here, he knows a lot more about negotiations and who to fit our system than me. 

Not sure why people think Denver got Vasquez cheap...6m is about the limit for a guard of his caliber.

Not sure why people are making a big deal about Cherilus knee...he has missed 4 games in his career

And yes, walden is pricey considering his résumé, but he is only getting 4m of that contact guaranteed..so it's perform or hit the road.

[dw49]

Not sure why people think Denver got Vasquez cheap...6m is about the limit for a guard of his caliber.

Not sure why people are making a big deal about Cherilus knee...he has missed 4 games in his career

And yes, walden is pricey considering his résumé, but he is only getting 4m of that contact guaranteed..so it's perform or hit the road.

 

 

Add to that the fact that SD has O line problems and they made no attempt to keep Vazquez.

[Mameluc]

Deangello sucks..dont get the love some fans have with him

[Mameluc]

Sam shields and Lewis were good possibilites IMO but some of those suposed great CB i dotn like...i dont like DRC, DHall, Mathis and Cary Williams

[throwing BBZ]

Not a bad GM puke thread. I was just pointing out that the CB market , unlike last year , is "luke warm." You probably can't remember or have no knowedge of the market last year. If you read my post 1 and 4 , my only two posts , you might be able to see that I was not calling "Coach & Grigson da's" Just pointing out the market and saying that it appears teams are waiting out the CB's in this year's market and the deals that have been done so far are on the cheap side. We jumped right in and signed Tolar and if you match up his cost with other CB's that have signed , some might think it's high when comparing their bodies of work. 

 

Hope that helps as your remark is off base and not very well thought out. When you knock someone , you need to read through everything that person said and then use a little brain power and figure out what that person was saying.

 

 DW i know you put good thought to your posts.

Your position.

"It could be they might have spent a liitle less on Tolar or got a little more bang for the buck had they stood back and watched a bit."

 

 You did start by telling us Coach, Griggs, and everyone who studied what is probably an Enormous amount of man hours to figure out the best CB for the right price,  MAY have waited and Gotten/LOST -- THE GUY they wanted for a little less $$$.

 OK    Any idea who their second choice was if they lost THEIR GUY, what his demands would have been, would he want to come here, would he really be more BANG for the BUCK?

 Using All their years of Experience & Wisdom, They got their guy, for a price they were satisfied with. I`m betting they were very excited to close that deal on day one.

Interesting where Houston,Toler, and Butler were rated by PFF. And how MANY here i betcha would have rather paid DRC $5M a year. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/01/free-agent-cornerbacks/   Our Professionals Select their kind of players.

 

I wasn`t struck by the Cards perspective on my initial read, but on the second read, the bit of background stuff on Toler was helpfull in understanding a players road travelled.

And there follows a few other posters who whined. I was expecting the thread to have many more whiners to join in than what did.

I find Nothing astounding about Zibby, McGlynn, Satelle, Vaughn, Brandon King, Olson, Justice, Mathis`s deal, keeping Freeney for $14M, all i can think of at this time. A big hit on Freeman & Fokou, and i bet Griggs was very surprised they played so well so quickly. One VN one for Griggs tho.

 

I am very sorry we still have slow Angerer rather than Fokou.

 

[wig]

Vasquez at around 6 mil/yr, DRC-5, Avril at 7.5, Welker at 6(no I didn't want Welker, but that's less than most would think). 

 

We paid a back-up LB 4 mil/yr and every deal we seem to sign is more money than expected, every single one. It's not my money so I really have no right to talk, but I just think it could've been used more wisely on better, more-qualified players like the ones above. I like Thomas/Cherrilus, it just seemed pricey for Cher, especially with those knees...which worries me. Who knows though, I mean this is Executive of the year here, he knows a lot more about negotiations and who to fit our system than me.

With Pagano wanting to move Mathis to the rush LB we didn't want Avril, we wanted someone who could seal the edge. And it could simply be that 6 mil a year is too much for pretty much any guard in Pagano/Grigson's eyes, some people don't value them much at all.

[bahhummbug]

If Welker can go for 2 years, $12 mil., Greg Jennings can go for 3 years, $20 mil. with the Colts, right?

Hope not i know alot of people think we need a big time Fa WR i would rather draft a younjgster and use what we have.Does anyone remember last years pre-season?Griff didnt look bad at all po mans wes in the hiding.And with OC coming from Stanford he might just be on roster this year

[dw49]

 DW i know you put good thought to your posts.

Your position.

"It could be they might have spent a liitle less on Tolar or got a little more bang for the buck had they stood back and watched a bit."

 

 You did start by telling us Coach, Griggs, and everyone who studied what is probably an Enormous amount of man hours to figure out the best CB for the right price,  MAY have waited and Gotten/LOST -- THE GUY they wanted for a little less $$$.

 OK    Any idea who their second choice was if they lost THEIR GUY, what his demands would have been, would he want to come here, would he really be more BANG for the BUCK?

 Using All their years of Experience & Wisdom, They got their guy, for a price they were satisfied with. I`m betting they were very excited to close that deal on day one.

Interesting where Houston,Toler, and Butler were rated by PFF. And how MANY here i betcha would have rather paid DRC $5M a year. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/01/free-agent-cornerbacks/   Our Professionals Select their kind of players.

 

I wasn`t struck by the Cards perspective on my initial read, but on the second read, the bit of background stuff on Toler was helpfull in understanding a players road travelled.

And there follows a few other posters who whined. I was expecting the thread to have many more whiners to join in than what did.

I find Nothing astounding about Zibby, McGlynn, Satelle, Vaughn, Brandon King, Olson, Justice, Mathis`s deal, keeping Freeney for $14M, all i can think of at this time. A big hit on Freeman & Fokou, and i bet Griggs was very surprised they played so well so quickly. One VN one for Griggs tho.

 

I am very sorry we still have slow Angerer rather than Fokou.

 

 

 

 

I really don't know anything about Tolar other than what I'm reading. I'm also not disappointed by the signing and I believe that you are right about Grigson and Pagano getting the guys they targeted. I hink what maybe me and others might miss is the possibility that "waiting the game out" might work best for a team that has very little cap room. That team could just wait and get a deal on a player that fills a need.When you have what we had to spend , you pretty much have to be aggresive and fill the holes. 

 

As I said , this post was only made to point out that the market for corners appears to be lower than one might have anticipated. Much different from last year when the better CB's were signed early for huge money. If appeared that I was whinning , it just came off wrong. 

[throwing BBZ]

Its been wearing hearing from the nattering nabobs.   If i`m right 60% of the time that is pretty good right?
And i nabob every now and then too!
 

Ya the little *&^% from Tenn. & Carr to Dallas come to mind from last year. $10M at the drop of the hat.
Definitely real head shakers.

 

I`m gettin' worn out, REAL tired of " may not be that bad a contract if they stay healthy". 

Lets bubble wrap EVERYONE for a season, see how that works!    
 

All in all, I am very happy with the slots they have filled. We really did need an improvement in a Lot of holes.

 Be interesting to see their checklist.
Who they got that they wanted.
How the price came in compared to their estimates.

I have a feeling Irsay, Griggs, and Coach & Staff are looking at each other with significant satisfaction at the success of their plan..

[Mitch]

Not sure why people think Denver got Vasquez cheap...6m is about the limit for a guard of his caliber.

Not sure why people are making a big deal about Cherilus knee...he has missed 4 games in his career

And yes, walden is pricey considering his résumé, but he is only getting 4m of that contact guaranteed..so it's perform or hit the road.

 

I definitely need to look at the way they structured these contracts but the numbers alone just sound like a lot. I'm just glad it isn't my money lol. I think we are done with BIG signings after RJF, but who knows. Oh and these past 2 signings have really helped I think and will be big upgrades over what we had. 

[azcolt]

I'm ready for the season to start. Our schedule doesn't look super tough and the combination of free agent additions and a year of maturity for Luck makes the next few years look very bright -- if we can keep Luck healthy. Regarding future cap problems, I trust our GM knows what he is doing until someone proves otherwise.

As for the topic of this thread and overpaying Greg Toler, out here in AZ I think most Cards fans -- and at least some of the Cards organization -- felt he was a keeper. Maybe that wouldn't matter if the Cards had a crappy defense in 2012 like Indy, but in fact they had an excellent defense that would have even looked better if they weren't covering up for a pathetic Cards offense.

[atapcl]

We did not overpay for Toler. He was rated 54th out of the top 100 FA's this yr.. He was rated higher than DRC, Cary Williams, and Keenen Lewis. DRC got the same amount as Toler, Derek Cox got the same amount with an extra yr.. It was market value. I might add, that if we would have given Cox the contract the Chargers gave him, people would have went ape crap mad.

Toler's contract is in line with Kelvin Hayden when he was at the top of his game.