Steve Young Hammers Grigson On Pre-game Show

[Shive]

25 minutes ago, tikyle said:

Firing a missile to kill a rat (that you missed BTW) is overkill and it still didn't address the problem.  As I said before you (or whoever made the first comment) sound like a politician.  So throwing a bunch of money (draft picks) at a problem without having a working strategy is not addressing the problem and it's not lazy media pointing out it isn't working.

 

Grigson spent early draft picks on guys named Khaled Holmes and Hugh Thornton also.

I can agree that it was all done too late, but I really don't get what you're trying to allude to. So because Holmes and Thornton didn't work out (they weren't early draft picks btw, pretty sure 3rd & 5th), it wasn't trying to address the problem?

 

The draft is a crapshoot and the last team you should try to use as a comparison is that era of the Lions. Millen became the poster boy for how NOT to build a team. Calvin Johnson wasn't a sure thing, as he came from a run-heavy GA Tech. Millen was HEAVILY criticized for the pick initially since he had missed on the prior 2 1st Rd WR's. What I gather from your argument is that you're not addressing a problem unless you draft future HOF players?

[tikyle]

13 minutes ago, Shive said:

I can agree that it was all done too late, but I really don't get what you're trying to allude to. So because Holmes and Thornton didn't work out (they weren't early draft picks btw, pretty sure 3rd & 5th), it wasn't trying to address the problem?

 

The draft is a crapshoot and the last team you should try to use as a comparison is that era of the Lions. Millen became the poster boy for how NOT to build a team. Calvin Johnson wasn't a sure thing, as he came from a run-heavy GA Tech. Millen was HEAVILY criticized for the pick initially since he had missed on the prior 2 1st Rd WR's. What I gather from your argument is that you're not addressing a problem unless you draft future HOF players?

 

The point I'm alluding to is that throwing random draft picks at a problem is not properly addressing the issue.  Did Blake Bortles at pick 10 address the issue that Jags haven't had a good QB since Mark Brunell?

 

PS (I consider early draft picks rounds 1 through 3)

[Shive]

16 minutes ago, tikyle said:

 

The point I'm alluding to is that throwing random draft picks at a problem is not properly addressing the issue.  Did Blake Bortles at pick 10 address the issue that Jags haven't had a good QB since Mark Brunell?

 

PS (I consider early draft picks rounds 1 through 3)

That's absurd logic. Those draft picks, at the time, were made with the thought that the player would be at least a solid contributor and improve their respective teams. They didn't just look at a list of available position players, close their eyes, and point to pick the guys. They legitimately believed those guys would be assets to the team. Bottles was coveted by a LOT OF teams. He actually looked to be turning the corner in the past year or so, but him not developing as well as most would like doesn't mean the Jags didn't attempt to address their need at QB.

 

Your thoughts process is that if you don't draft an all-pro or future HOF with early picks, you're not attempting to address a problem. That's severely flawed logic. The fact of the matter is that you research these prospects as best you can and make an educated GUESS on who you think will be a good player. The 1st Rd bust rate (not a solid contributor) is around 30% and it goes up from there as the rounds go. You can't use hindsight as part of your argument, as that info wasn't available at the time of making the pick.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, tikyle said:

Riddle me this @chad72 when Matt Millen was the Lions GM, did he address the problem of #1 WR by drafting 1st round receivers over and over, or did he address the problem by finally drafting Calvin Johnson?  I'll eager be waiting for you answer.

 

Lions' first-round picks under Matt Millen
Year	Position	Player	College	Notes
2008	OT	Gosder Cherilus*	Boston College	Zero starts in three games
2007	WR	Calvin Johnson*	Georgia Tech	six touchdowns in 13 career starts
2006	LB	Ernie Sims*	Florida State	1.5 sacks in 35 career starts
2005	WR	Mike Williams*	Southern California	two touchdowns in six starts for Lions
2004	WR	Roy Williams*	Texas	29 touchdowns in 54 career starts, Pro Bowl in 2006
2004	RB	Kevin Jones*	Virginia Tech	27 touchdowns in 49 starts for Lions
2003	WR	Charles Rogers*	Michigan State	four touchdowns in nine career starts
2002	QB	Joey Harrington*	Oregon	62 interceptions in 55 starts for Lions
2001	OT	Jeff Backus*	Michigan	started all 115 games of the Matt Millen era
* No	longer	with team

 

Quality is not quantity, no doubt about that. No points for effort in this league, only results speak loud. I never denied that. I was just alluding to the fact that drafting quality players (instead of quantity) for the same weakness can make a difference, even if a few years late, and I believe in the recent infusion of talent on the OL once they develop, maybe you don't. You alluded to Calvin Johnson, that was the quality the Lions finally needed but it took way too many misses to land a swing.  However, Matt Millen's legacy was more than those first round picks, it was so many entire draft classes in futility. While I am giving Grigson the benefit of doubt of the last 2 drafts, I was wishing he had done more in 2012 and 2013 for the OL and defense. I am not saying he is a lost cause as a GM like the stance you are taking.

 

However, there is also player development with the right coaches. OL is a tough position to transition to from college, which is the reason I said if the right quality was drafted in 2012 and 2013, we'd have a few cornerstones on the OL by now. The last 2 drafts look different to me, the players are developing better. I cannot say exactly why but it looks that way. The realization that you have to replenish quality constantly through the draft, while may not have been lost on Grigson earlier, seems to be a concept etched in his mind way more front and center than in the past primarily due to the large contract offered to Luck. That was my contention. Grigson, more than anyone else, knows he cannot afford huge misses anymore.

 

[MacDee1975]

Have the Colts ever had a losing season under Grigson's watch?  Seems like Young should be targeting the GM of teams that actually lose alot for those kind of critiques.

[tikyle]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

Quality is not quantity, no doubt about that. No points for effort in this league, only results speak loud. I never denied that. I was just alluding to the fact that drafting quality players (instead of quantity) for the same weakness can make a difference and I believe in the recent infusion of talent on the OL once they develop, maybe you don't. You alluded to Calvin Johnson, that was the quality the Lions finally needed but it took way too many misses to land a swing.  However, Matt Millen's legacy was more than those first round picks, it was so many entire draft classes in futility. While I am giving Grigson the benefit of doubt of the last 2 drafts, I was wishing he had done more in 2012 and 2013 for the OL and defense. I am not saying he is a lost cause as a GM like the stance you are taking.

 

However, there is also player development with the right coaches. OL is a tough position to transition to from college, which is the reason I said if the right quality was drafted in 2012 and 2013, we'd have a few cornerstones on the OL by now. The last 2 drafts look different to me, the players are developing better. I cannot say exactly why but it looks that way. The realization that you have to replenish quality constantly through the draft, while may not have been lost on Grigson earlier, seems to be a concept etched in his mind way more front and center than in the past primarily due to the large contract offered to Luck, that was my contention. Grigson, more than anyone else, knows he cannot afford huge misses anymore.

 

 

 

I wish I had the glasses that you have when viewing this team.  I agree that talent developing plays a major role in making draft picks look better.  And I agree somewhat that this draft class of OL looks promising to a degree.  But I don't know about the last 2 drafts looking different.  D. Smith, J. Robinson and Herrera are gone.  Dorsett, Geathers and Anderson stay hurt.  Goode, Parry and Ridgeway are quality rotation men.  Kelly looks to be a starter for a long time.  Haeg could be a starter or could be a rotation guy.  The rest of them is wait and see.  I don't see how that is much different from earlier classes.

 

I will though blame Pagano for at least the defensive guys.  There is no reason he is not making marginal defensive backs into decent rotational guys.  That is his background.  He should at least be doing that in his development. 

 

[Superman]

6 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

Do we sit and wait while Luck loses his prime?

 

Luck isn't even in his prime.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, tikyle said:

throwing random draft picks at a problem is not properly addressing the issue.

 

What is a "random draft pick"?

[Shive]

19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

What is a "random draft pick"?

Apparently if you don't draft all-pro's, you're just blindly throwing darts at a list of prospects.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

So these are the kinds of threads we all get treated to after winning 3 out of the last 4 and being tied for 1st in the division?

[Shive]

2 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

So these are the kinds of threads we all get treated to after winning 3 out of the last 4 and being tied for 1st in the division?

Also after blowing out the Jeta, a team that recently lost to NE by only 5 points.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, Shive said:

Also after blowing out the Jeta, a team that recently lost to NE by only 5 points.

 

I know right? I've seen lots of fans, Colts fans and otherwise, make excuses for their team after losses, especially in the playoffs, but seeing fans make excuses for winning is just... weird.

[bababooey]

17 hours ago, IcyRhythms said:

I think the key here is JETS...

 

The Jets are nobody

Those nobodies have owned us the last three times we faced them since the AFC championship game in 09, including Peyton's last game as a Colt. Luck's had 2 of his worst 5 QBRs in those two games against the Jets last year in the home opener and the week after we beat Green Bay when he was a Rookie.

[bababooey]

10 hours ago, needanoline63 said:

Whoopdy doo we beat one of the worse teams in football this season

I think the Pats get excited after beating down anyone no matter who they are, and they win a lot of games. Last time I checked we don't, so we should probably enjoy blowouts like these.

[bababooey]

7 hours ago, Gramz said:

I prefer to celebrate our wins.. instead of looking for things to gripe about.

I will say, I would have loved for Jack to hold on to that ball right before the half and for TY to not drop that easy first down in the red zone. My brother is a Jets fan so I wanted to rub this one in hard after the last 3 times including Peyton's last game with us.

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, MacDee1975 said:

Have the Colts ever had a losing season under Grigson's watch?  Seems like Young should be targeting the GM of teams that actually lose alot for those kind of critiques.

There are definitely others to target as well, but those teams don't get MNF games. He's basically looking at it as "what have you done for me lately" plus worst division in football plus Luck is hit at a record pace, plus the team around Luck now stinks with a few stars. Lot of things for him to attack.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, bababooey said:

I will say, I would have loved for Jack to hold on to that ball right before the half and for TY to not drop that easy first down in the red zone. My brother is a Jets fan so I wanted to rub this one in hard after the last 3 times including Peyton's last game with us.

 

How stupid is that fumble rule in the end zone by the way? Ball goes out of bounds and it's a touchback for the other team, why? I'd understand it had they actually recovered it, but if it goes out of bounds, there's no reason that there should be a change of possession on that play. Should be Colts ball at the 1, it seriously has to be the worst rule in the NFL.

[Superman]

11 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I know right? I've seen lots of fans, Colts fans and otherwise, make excuses for their team after losses, especially in the playoffs, but seeing fans make excuses for winning is just... weird.

 

Self-pitying Colts fans...

 

The Jets aren't good, that's obvious. But the Colts are average... maybe slightly above average, overall? Not a great team by any stretch, not a contender this year, IMO. So this wasn't a bully game by any means. As a matter of fact, I think the prediction thread was pretty well split, with some predicting the Colts would be dominated by the Jets, right? 

 

What's good about this game is the Colts didn't mess around. Came out, set the tone on both sides of the ball, and clearly dominated an inferior opponent from start to finish. Say whatever about the Jets' motivation, they have a handful of critical players on their roster who are in contract years, or playing for their careers. This team hung tough with the Pats in Foxborough last week. For the Colts to dominate them says at least something about the Colts, suggesting they aren't the same team that decided to sleepwalk through the first half of the Jags game, for instance. For them to finish it on the road suggests they aren't the same team that blew a big lead against the Texans in Week 5. 

 

Let's not get carried away. The Colts are still not a title contender. But hopefully they aren't the dysfunctional outfit they looked to be two months ago. Hopefully they don't play down to inferior opponents anymore, or blow big leads in the 4th quarter. That's meaningful progress.

 

[bababooey]

Just now, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

How stupid is that fumble rule in the end zone by the way? Ball goes out of bounds and it's a touchback for the other team, why? I'd understand it had they actually recovered it, but if it goes out of bounds, there's no reason that there should be a change of possession on that play. Should be Colts ball at the 1, it seriously has to be the worst rule in the NFL.

Yea it was funny when it happened to RG3 against the Giants but last night I was hoping Jack would get that one right before the half that got set up by that big penalty.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Let's not get carried away. The Colts are still not a title contender. But hopefully they aren't the dysfunctional outfit they looked to be two months ago. Hopefully they don't play down to inferior opponents anymore, or blow big leads in the 4th quarter. That's meaningful progress.

 

 

Right now, after seeing them win 3 out of these last 4, I feel like they could scrap their way to the division title, and surprise 1 or 2 teams in the playoffs. They're getting hot at the right time in my opinion. Not saying that's what will happen, just that I wouldn't be surprised, whereas 2 months ago, it didn't even look like a remote possibility.

[bababooey]

9 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Right now, after seeing them win 3 out of these last 4, I feel like they could scrap their way to the division title, and surprise 1 or 2 teams in the playoffs. They're getting hot at the right time in my opinion. Not saying that's what will happen, just that I wouldn't be surprised, whereas 2 months ago, it didn't even look like a remote possibility.

Reaaaalllyyy wish we could have the last 2 min of the Lions, Jags, Texans, and Broncos games back.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

49 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Reaaaalllyyy wish we could have the last 2 min of the Lions, Jags, Texans, and Broncos games back.

 

No kidding. If they don't blow those 4 games, they're 10-2 as opposed to 6-6, and in the mix for the 1 or 2 seed with New England and Oakland... and that's with Luck missing the Pittsburgh game. He plays in that game, then who knows, we could be looking at 11-1.

 

Now I'm upset... thanks a lot @bababooey

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

Reaaaalllyyy wish we could have the last 2 min of the Lions, Jags, Texans, and Broncos games back.

Technically had we beat Houston the first time the Division would pretty much be over unless we just have a meltdown now. We would be 7-5 right now and they would be 5-7 and we own the tiebreaker over the Titans who are 6-6. I would just take having that game back.

[bradgt04]

19 hours ago, Jdubu said:

Well we've played lesser quality teams with Peyton Manning and Polian and lost so I'm excited to see a 31 point blow out. 

 

As another poster said, we all can only hope Griggs has learned from past mistakes and get things corrected for the future. We will find out. Still have to find a run game. 

I agree.  I think we needed to beat up and bully a team no matter who it was.  We needed a confidence booster.  Wish we played them on thanksgiving with the same result

[needanoline63]

14 hours ago, Jdubu said:

Must enjoy life when you can't even enjoy a blowout win on the road regardless of the team played. That defense they have has a stout dline,  a HOF cb (albeit a shell of himself) and one of the best pass catching rushers and we blew them out. Enjoy a win that wasn't ever in question for a change.

How bout no

[DarkHorse]

If the Jets are so bad weshould be blowing them out

[dw49]

10 hours ago, Gramz said:

    I believe it has something to do with puppies eventually quit whining...?  

 

Of course, then there is always 

 

Yep , you have it correct.

[GoColts8818]

3 hours ago, needanoline63 said:

How bout no

Yes because heaven forbid people enjoy something the Colts do...

[gacoop1]

When the fans are calling for his head(Grigson) due to incompetent decisions he's made, and now Steve Young, the NFL analyst notices it too, then there must be some substance of  truth behind it.....Why doesn't the old thick headed Irsay see this about his team.... Before you know it, Luck will be walking like a Zombie.

[Defjamz26]

11 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Self-pitying Colts fans...

 

The Jets aren't good, that's obvious. But the Colts are average... maybe slightly above average, overall? Not a great team by any stretch, not a contender this year, IMO. So this wasn't a bully game by any means. As a matter of fact, I think the prediction thread was pretty well split, with some predicting the Colts would be dominated by the Jets, right? 

 

What's good about this game is the Colts didn't mess around. Came out, set the tone on both sides of the ball, and clearly dominated an inferior opponent from start to finish. Say whatever about the Jets' motivation, they have a handful of critical players on their roster who are in contract years, or playing for their careers. This team hung tough with the Pats in Foxborough last week. For the Colts to dominate them says at least something about the Colts, suggesting they aren't the same team that decided to sleepwalk through the first half of the Jags game, for instance. For them to finish it on the road suggests they aren't the same team that blew a big lead against the Texans in Week 5. 

 

Let's not get carried away. The Colts are still not a title contender. But hopefully they aren't the dysfunctional outfit they looked to be two months ago. Hopefully they don't play down to inferior opponents anymore, or blow big leads in the 4th quarter. That's meaningful progress.

 

 

You and I both know though that the real reason people have issues with the loss is because they want that high draft pick. But despite my predictions for the team this season, I'd much rather see them win a few games but lose in the playoffs or just miss them than watch them only win 3 games.

[bababooey]

11 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

If the Jets are so bad weshould be blowing them out

They almost beat the pats on the road a week earlier...

[GoColtsWin]

20 hours ago, Shive said:

I'd say Kelly is a HUGE upgrade over every C we've had since Saturday and Haeg looks like he's becoming a very solid, versatile G/T

QFT

[Gramz]

26 minutes ago, bababooey said:

They almost beat the pats on the road a week earlier...

This.   I realize that every team has their "fluke" games, but I was thinking this exactly.

 

And I was very happy to see our team blowing anyone out.   It was a fun game to watch and a much needed Win and confidence builder.

[Myles]

19 hours ago, MacDee1975 said:

Have the Colts ever had a losing season under Grigson's watch?  Seems like Young should be targeting the GM of teams that actually lose alot for those kind of critiques.

What he said wasn't wrong.   Even in this blowout of the Jets, Luck pent lots of time on his back.   The offensive line didn't run block well either.  

 

I would roll the dice with someone else as GM.   Grigson has to get a "D" for the job he's done with the Colts. 

[PeterBowman]

11 minutes ago, Myles said:

What he said wasn't wrong.   Even in this blowout of the Jets, Luck pent lots of time on his back.   The offensive line didn't run block well either.  

 

I would roll the dice with someone else as GM.   Grigson has to get a "D" for the job he's done with the Colts. 

ummm, they ran for 140 yards against the #4 rush D in the league. The run D was just fine this game.

[Myles]

6 minutes ago, PeterBowman said:

ummm, they ran for 140 yards against the #4 rush D in the league. The run D was just fine this game.

Luck having 26 yards rushing should not be viewed as a positive for the O line.    Much of the other yards were during garbage time as well.   I agree that they did better than they usually do, but the Colts don't have anything close to a good offensive line right now.  

[runthepost]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

They almost beat the pats on the road a week earlier...

They always play Brady well

[jskinnz]

21 hours ago, Shive said:

That's absurd logic. Those draft picks, at the time, were made with the thought that the player would be at least a solid contributor and improve their respective teams. They didn't just look at a list of available position players, close their eyes, and point to pick the guys. They legitimately believed those guys would be assets to the team. Bottles was coveted by a LOT OF teams. He actually looked to be turning the corner in the past year or so, but him not developing as well as most would like doesn't mean the Jags didn't attempt to address their need at QB.

 

Your thoughts process is that if you don't draft an all-pro or future HOF with early picks, you're not attempting to address a problem. That's severely flawed logic. The fact of the matter is that you research these prospects as best you can and make an educated GUESS on who you think will be a good player. The 1st Rd bust rate (not a solid contributor) is around 30% and it goes up from there as the rounds go. You can't use hindsight as part of your argument, as that info wasn't available at the time of making the pick.

 

Your post was made almost 24 hours ago and the person it was directed to has yet to respond.  I think that is known as a win.

[Shive]

44 minutes ago, Myles said:

Luck having 26 yards rushing should not be viewed as a positive for the O line.    Much of the other yards were during garbage time as well.   I agree that they did better than they usually do, but the Colts don't have anything close to a good offensive line right now.  

Luck's 26 yds rushing wasn't due to a breakdown in blocking so he had to run for his life. It was typically just that our WRs were covered and he saw an opening to make a play with his legs.

[bababooey]

25 minutes ago, Shive said:

Luck's 26 yds rushing wasn't due to a breakdown in blocking so he had to run for his life. It was typically just that our WRs were covered and he saw an opening to make a play with his legs.

100% this. Those weren't scrambles for his life folks, didn't want to make a bad throw and had 5 or more yards of open field in front of him.